Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[Flavor Leaf]

'Soup, fools

[Flavor Leaf]

'Soup, fools

You have a wolf guide? What can you teach me thay I don't already know

that you can always create better gambits

[Flavor Leaf]

JV I JUST WANNA LET YOU KNOW IM TOWN IN THIS GAME

I KNOW ITS GONNA BE HARD TO EARN YOUR TRUST

BUT I GOTCHU BB

VOTE: flavorleaf

Hi

Ditto, but from me to Malcolm.

[Flavor Leaf]

Mala villagery tho, why do you want to vote only villagers mr monkey?

villagey how?

That entrance is fairly pure tonally, what's bad about it?

That it assumes that FL is town?

it should always just be assumed i'm town

[Flavor Leaf]

ngl koopa you really seem like someone who got caught and is now amping it up to double down

not sure i trust you just yet

yeah, scum always double down on getting caught on page 2.

[Flavor Leaf]

As sarcastic as that was, I actually think pushing that kinda mentality is somewhat townie.

[Flavor Leaf]

As sarcastic as that was, I actually think pushing that kinda mentality is somewhat townie.

as in, human is kinda townie for pushing that because thats kind of a weird thing to push as scum, yall feel me

[Flavor Leaf]

I have a certain respect for people who have pride in their wolf play, as the better people are at playing wolf, the more interesting games are, and it isn't just as simple as solving the most polarized players, tis all.
Here's a list of my villa reads so far, ranked by strength:
Italiano
Humaneatingmonkey
KittyTacky
Malakittens

Not bad for page 2 as well as not even half the playerlist has posted if I say so myself

that's just a sneaky type of way to push me as being scum, i see how it is.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have a certain respect for people who have pride in their wolf play, as the better people are at playing wolf, the more interesting games are, and it isn't just as simple as solving the most polarized players, tis all.
Here's a list of my villa reads so far, ranked by strength:
Italiano
Humaneatingmonkey
KittyTacky
Malakittens

Not bad for page 2 as well as not even half the playerlist has posted if I say so myself

that's just a sneaky type of way to push me as being scum, i see how it is.

Moreso giving the proper respect towards a player who writes guides for wolves. I do not explicitly see you as below null, for clarity, else I would be voting you right now. I'm sure given a push or 2 I will be able to gleam your progression/thought processes and give a more confident read there.

Nah, I see.

how it is.

I see how it is.

I'm watching you wazowski.

[Flavor Leaf]

I usually get scumread for this but eh who cares.

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

First game.
Town.
Lurker.
I have never lied.

[Flavor Leaf]

I haven't played with Malakittens in a long long time, but right now, I'm feeling they're town. They can be sneaky, though, but even with that into consideration, I'm gonna throw a town read down.

[Flavor Leaf]

koopa prob town

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

Why don't you just do it instead of posturing about it? I've been waiting for you to actually do something like this for a bit now.

I’d rather see how people react to me saying it than do it

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

Why don't you just do it instead of posturing about it? I've been waiting for you to actually do something like this for a bit now.

Another thing up against this, while I've been pushing the appearance of not doing anything/lurky, if you check my ISO, even though the tone is probably there, I feel like you can see multiple posts of vaguely where my head is at.

I tend to find it better for me not to immediately come in the beginning of the game because I'm someone who can essentially take over by talking a lot, so early games I try to stay in the background until it's time for me to pounce.

You can poke at the kitty, but I got hops and claws.

I also dont mind pulling attention onto me if I need to. I like interacting with people directly.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

[Flavor Leaf]

If you really want me to put a way too early readslist, here ya go.

Malakittens
Scorpious
Koopashell
Not Known 15

MalcolmTucker
JacksonVirgo
KittyTacky
humaneatingmonkey

Facebones
Saladman27

ItalianoVD
Roden

No order within tiers. I usually have a Red color on the bottom, and that is not present here. Orange is just lower than neutral in Facebones/Salad. I dont expect to be right this early. Green are people I'm confident at the moment are town, but it's like Page 9, this can easily flip.

Blue are people I haven't seen anything that stood out to me negatively, and didn't mind their tones.

I expect scum to be spreadout throughout the tiers based on what social dynamics and positioning are happening.

[Flavor Leaf]

the roden and italiano reads are actually separate from any of their thoughts on mala. Ill probably get more into it when i find the words.

[Flavor Leaf]

what is that list representing if Saladman is the neutral slot?

[Flavor Leaf]

looks fluffy

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm interested in your Italiano read, Flavor, because I disagree and think their mindset is villagery, despite being one I disagree with.
Despite him wolfreading me, I think he is at least pushing me in good faith, in the sense that I feel that he is pushing me in a way that a villager pushes a read they believe in.

do you think a scum cant push someone 'in good faith'?

[Flavor Leaf]

So there’s nobody less than neutral for you right now, everyone’s better than neutral?

[Flavor Leaf]

With Italians, it’s mostly been a lot of their stuff looks like it’s been said just to be said rather than them thinking it, almost like a “make the townie convince me they’re town” kinda strategy.

[Flavor Leaf]

The antenna line also made a Koopa-FL an in game connection, like it was then trying to put us on some type of stage to either be scum read together, or cause a TvS.

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess I don’t see Italiano’s reasoning as complex. Looks pretty weak reasoning for the most part.

Almost looks like they wanted you to feel that ease off of them so you’ll town read them.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Italiano

I think I’m happy going this route for now.

[Flavor Leaf]

You convinced me what can i say

[Flavor Leaf]

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

What happens when two antennas get married?

I don't think this is a S/S interaction. There wasn't any follow up to the reasonings behind doing that as S/S.

[Flavor Leaf]

Paranoia is making me think of a theory where Koopa/Italian are scum, and now Koopa's trying to damage control this Italian push by going along with me, and pushing Mala/Roden together more, which is strong considering I was also suspicious of Roden.

Not my first thought, but making note of it for later in the game I can look at.

I'll have to get a little scummier, though. Might play around with getting myself wagon'd later, idk.

[Flavor Leaf]

Like Italiano has a lot of shade thrown at Mala, *however*, he is pushing elsewhere instead, rather than pursuing a read that in words is their strongest wolfread, when you look at the things Italiano has said.

Also this world I feel that Salad slot also fits in as the 3rd wolf - in which case I need to wait for Salad to post here to see how they act.

This is kind of why I'm leaning Italiano scum overall. He's setting himself up in a way that is behind the scenes while also being right out in the front, if that makes sense.

Tying himself to multiple slots, kind of making the others 'prove themself to him'.

I think there's no bearing for wanting to scum read Salad here other than you dont want to believe some townier reads of yours are wrong. Scum position in ways where youre just gonna town read scum probably early, at least one.

The connecting of you and I was really the kicker to it all.

I actually see the scum merit in the "I usually get scum read for this, but oh well" into the questions, but ill likely count that as null, but if he is scum, then that was scum indicative typing that first intro part to it. I also think it naturally comes off as scummy but the type of scummy that is townie, if that makes sense.

Probably reading too much into that part, but yeah. I'm happy with my vote right now. Early, so I'm not like sold on Italiano scum, but like 35% sure is super good for this time.

[Flavor Leaf]

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

That Flavor Leaf/koopa interaction on pg 3 is pinging my antennas.

What happens when two antennas get married?

I don't think this is a S/S interaction. There wasn't any follow up to the reasonings behind doing that as S/S.

It's more of the type of treatment is different that I was looking at -> Mala treats italiano with silly replies, everyone else gets serious ones.

Also Mala has not once reacted to Italiano's shade against her, but has replied to mostly everyone pushing her otherwise.


Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yeah, sure. I don't think that happens if they are actually S/S, it's just one of those dynamics that look S/S. I could be wrong, and they are S/S, at the moment, I just dont think that's how Mala would talk to their scum partner specifically. outside of meta, i dont generally like to use meta except self meta.

[Flavor Leaf]

i think a natural thing is for scum to try not to act different with their partners, though. whether they succeed is a different story, but i don't think treating their partners differently than the rest of the game is something they actively look to do, and likely try to put extra focus into acting into that.

I also believe that is more effective with action than words, and frankly, i havent seen any action between the two, just words

[Flavor Leaf]

Early game doesn't have a lot of action posts generally.

If anything, Italiano's attempt to link the two of us together, throwing those feelers out there, is the most action I've seen taken, and thats subtle/soft.

[Flavor Leaf]

Im getting more confident about koopa being town
Im not townreading Flavor Leaf yet.

I'll do a deeper read Monday maybe. I had a deadline last Wednesday. I still have it now. >. >

what made you more confident in town koopa? I tended to get a little less confident after that, not fully, I just see much more possibilities for ScumKoopa than I did before the exchange I had with them.

They can still stay in the same tier for now, though, maybe they go to blue, but regardless, still townie occam razor.

[Flavor Leaf]

will be to town's detriment if both italiano and mala happen to be town.

only if you push to fade them without reevaluating.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have also laid down my town read on Mala, so don't know how Mala got lumped into it from the posting I was doing. If anything, I think it becomes less likely Mala gets flipped.

[Flavor Leaf]

(ItalianVD sussed FL

they actually said they were slightly lean towning on me, if I recall correctly.

[Flavor Leaf]

Honestly if I wasn’t leaning toward Flavor Leaf being town I’d think he and koopa were partners.

yep.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh and I don't agree with FL's assessment on ItalianVD. I think theyre fine and they have been active (like, not just words. Did you miss the push on koopa and on you? That's not nothing and I may have missed you addressing that.)

Not sure that makes FL scum because it's a very controversial read to make as scum, but it could be scum motivated. (ItalianVD sussed FL, this could be their retaliation, pocketing koopa in the process)

Still Im curious where this goes.

Pedit: Havent read the Pedits yet

This is a misrep, if they're saying I pushed Italiano for not being active, but I'm not sure it's on purpose.

I feel like this was a motivated post in some fashion, but it's just a little off. I'm a bit biased since it's against my read, but i feel like the analysis/assessment in itself is off considering it's based off of something that was incorrect, so could just be town misreading.

[Flavor Leaf]

Wow it's gonn be hard to play lurker with you around huh

I just respond to whats in front of me, and then talk to myself if nobody's there, and im in the zone.

but then ill go like 2 days sometimes without checking in.

[Flavor Leaf]

You literally said he was all fluff and his actions are lacking.
I disagree.

Show where I called italiano fluff.

And that sounds like just not understanding what I meant by action, which is on me.

Talking and slightly shading isnt really action in the sense that I want to see what people do in moments of decisions. Hard action. they might have had a good amount of soft action, but i wasnt really talking about them having a lack of activity/reads, but I see why you can think I did.

[Flavor Leaf]

Now that everyone but saladman has posted significant content, I will do a new ranked list of player(mostly actually for myself to get an idea of what *I* am looking at as I haven't organized my thoughts yet haha) and we can see here:

Not Known 15
humaneatingmonkey
Facebones
MalcolmTucker
ItalianoVD
KittyTacky
Flavor Leaf
JacksonVirgo
Roden
Malakittens
Scorpious
Saladman27



Salad goes on bottom as a player with 0 content and thus 0 level of villagerness. Everyone in the game other has, in my view, achieved *something* that makes me feel there is a little thought behind it.


A few are extended gut reads and are very volatile in ranking possibility here - some of these I cannot even remember specific posts why but my brain tells them that they are there, but if prompted I can likely find the posts that led me to that conclusion.

looks fluffy

ahh, i see why you think i meant Italiano there too.

But yeah, I was calling Koopa's list fluffy, not Italiano. They just happened to ask more on my Italiano read as I was posting.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm interested in your Italiano read, Flavor, because I disagree and think their mindset is villagery, despite being one I disagree with.
Despite him wolfreading me, I think he is at least pushing me in good faith, in the sense that I feel that he is pushing me in a way that a villager pushes a read they believe in.

I'm interested in your Italiano read, Flavor, because I disagree and think their mindset is villagery, despite being one I disagree with.
Despite him wolfreading me, I think he is at least pushing me in good faith, in the sense that I feel that he is pushing me in a way that a villager pushes a read they believe in.

do you think a scum cant push someone 'in good faith'?

if you look here, my response to that Koopa post came right after.

[Flavor Leaf]

Spoiler:

Now that everyone but saladman has posted significant content, I will do a new ranked list of player(mostly actually for myself to get an idea of what *I* am looking at as I haven't organized my thoughts yet haha) and we can see here:

Not Known 15
humaneatingmonkey
Facebones
MalcolmTucker
ItalianoVD
KittyTacky
Flavor Leaf
JacksonVirgo
Roden
Malakittens
Scorpious
Saladman27



Salad goes on bottom as a player with 0 content and thus 0 level of villagerness. Everyone in the game other has, in my view, achieved *something* that makes me feel there is a little thought behind it.


A few are extended gut reads and are very volatile in ranking possibility here - some of these I cannot even remember specific posts why but my brain tells them that they are there, but if prompted I can likely find the posts that led me to that conclusion.

what is that list representing if Saladman is the neutral slot?

looks fluffy

so this was the thread of posts where the looks fluffy was attached to. Note the timestamps.

[Flavor Leaf]

What have been moments of decisions for you and why do you think Italiano missing that points to him being scum

It just doesnt make sense to me and I think you pulled this from outer space. Help me be oriented.

There hasn't been really too many, not usually is hard action this early. A hard stance by a scum to politically position, a lofty pocket play, a claim gambit.

a vote at a pivotal time.


Technically, you can consider my Italiano vote something thats more hard action, and if you notice, it brought the direction of the game in another direction, which was kind of my purpose all day. i wanted to interact directly more with some slots.

My reads list is almost like a trap to set scum who are potentially town read by me to try to get me to keep town reading them, so i play with that type of thing in mind while still trusting the logic and tone reads.

I think Italiano's linking of Koopa and Myself specifically while leaning town on me is the scummier part of it. Had they scum read me, it would have felt more null to me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I've also clearly stated I think Italiano is only like 35% scum, and had them on Orange on my list, so I'm not anywhere convinced they're scum, just seemed like a good area to push and dive deeper.

My humanmonkey read and koopashell reads now have a lot more layers to them.

Like if we had 3 hours left, and I was given the option to auto choose the fade, yeah, it'd be Italiano right now is kind of all it means.

[Flavor Leaf]

Could be scumMonk doing some damage control protecting Italiano. Not sure yet. Their initial push on me was just factually incorrect, which I understand why it happened, but their base fell apart, and then they chose to vote me, which is inherently scum indicative.

There's a piece of action for you. It's effectively a possible chainsaw defense of Italiano by Monk. Neat.

Holds more merit if Koopa is town because scum would have needed to break up FL-Koopa before it develops further.

I'm also town reading Malakittens which is not good for scum if Mala is town.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'd assume HEM is fairly town up to this point

Let's get into this since this a bit more.

[Flavor Leaf]

Their initial push on me was just factually incorrect, which I understand why it happened, but their base fell apart, and then they chose to vote me, which is inherently scum indicative.

This is my reasoning for bringing Human down to the Orange tier.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know what, I can see Human doing that to an Italiano town in that scenario if Koopa is also town.

It's almost like hiding behind my Italiano scum read, but here's the thing. Hmm.

Human acted in a way that I thought Italiano would if Italiano was scum, but Italiano just sitting back and letting the wagon happen because what else are they gonna do is a little townie.

OMGUS, I choose you! (even though there is multiple reasons that it isnt actually OMGUS.

VOTE: Humaneating

1: Their initial reason for suspicion was based on facts from a misunderstanding, and only after it was cleared up, did they choose to vote.
2: This happens after Koopa and I both voted onto Italiano, meaning if Koopa/FL is T/T, then scum would definitely need to start breaking this up. This is especially true of Malakittens is also town.
3: Their push is just kinda forced in a way that looks to break up a townblock. Like they came into it with the plan of eventually pushing me, and once we got cleared up and went to diffuse, they chose to vote. That was almost like a desperate act to make sure that the heat of Monk vs FL kept up, and I'm willing to give them the fire.

[Flavor Leaf]

Nah its definitely just omgus dude and the rest are galaxy brain justifications and so is your

Italian scumread

see, blatant misrep again. Acting like I had Italiano as hard scum, when I've clearly stated it was 35% and that I do not feel that I am necessarily correct this early into a game.

Also, they're using incorrect justifications as a reasoning considering I explained that their level of understanding the situation was flat out incorrect, yet they wouldnt even be able to put what they think my justification is into words now that I cleared up that it wasn't the fluff nature.

ScumThem wanted that to be the narrative.

Human wants the game narrative for me to have a strong italiano scum read, and now they're gonna try to use a weak discredit attempt by dismissing the turn on them as simply OMGUS.

There is the possibility they just aren't a strong enough town player to see it, I guess.

[Flavor Leaf]

I believe that Human is attempting a White Knight pocket attempt on Italiano to lower my presence in the game as scum.

It isn't a chainsaw.

[Flavor Leaf]

On a more serious note
I'll be here later give me like 10 hours

It doesn't matter if you were here, all you have is dismissals on an incorrect factual push. You just need to wait for more players to come in for you to proceed because I'm going to put you on a leash, monkey. This a strap match.

[Flavor Leaf]

Right now, you're either scum doing exactly as I said, or incorrect town who doesn't know how to put their feelings into words.

Only two options.

[Flavor Leaf]

For what it's worth, I don't believe ScumHuman planned to take that action for thoses purposes, he just needed to do something, which is why they felt the situation out first.

Then they realized their initial angle was wrong, so they shut themselves down and went into dismissal mode instead of acknowledging their initial angle was baseless after I had shown.

Their base was that I called Italiano fluffy, when that's not at all what happened, but they have nothing else, so they're just actively choosing to get into a 1v1.

It'll let them hide, and it will naturally cause people to tune the 1v1 out.

This is why it is a scum move by Human.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Koopa - I'll trust your Italiano read for now, help me get a little bit of pressure onto this Monkey. I need to figure out if they're scum doing the move or town underanalyzing.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden being scum actually makes Human scum more likely here as well if Italiano/Koopa are both town.

But I dont have that complex a read on Roden, just early game natural positioning by everyone in relation to where I was.

I'd say I'm more onto Human Red tier, and Italiano blue tier right now, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least

with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em

.

This is yet another reason Human monkey is filled with hot air trying to disrupt because they were pushing like I had Italiano as some hard lock scum when this actively shows I saw some reasons to town read Italiano.

One of my main purposes for making my initial Italiano push was to elicit reactions onto me, and both Koopa and Human bit some worms. I think Koopa did it innocently. Human did not.

[Flavor Leaf]

With Italians, it’s mostly been a lot of their stuff looks like it’s been said just to be said rather than them thinking it, almost like a “make the townie convince me they’re town” kinda strategy.

This is interesting. And I would say you're right. I wouldn't totally frame it that way, but yeah. You don't see that coming from a town mindset?

Yeah, I can see it coming from a town mindset, sure. Wasn't my initial read on it, though. I'm leaning there now, though.


And the admittance by Italiano here also invalidates Human's "your justification is lol" case.

So book the monkey.

[Flavor Leaf]

The antenna line also made a Koopa-FL an in game connection, like it was then trying to put us on some type of stage to either be scum read together, or cause a TvS.

Again yeah. Reading that early interaction between you too pinged me. Even though it was sorta RVS, it just didn't seem like anything. And it was more koopa than you.

Yeah, italiano is green now.

This is me green'ing italiano while noting that this is exactly the best way a scum italiano could have gotten out of my scum read on them.

No doubt the Human interaction opened up my perspective on the overall gamestate.

Human/Roden + 2 less active players is my way too early solve.

[Flavor Leaf]

Koopa/Italiano/Malakittens way too early town block for me atm.

Scorpious is 'almost' there, but that 5th slot is too much for a town block.

[Flavor Leaf]

I will say, my scorpious town read is heavy gut, so I can't really go into that one quite yet. Over time, maybe I'll be able to explain it better

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess I don’t see Italiano’s reasoning as complex. Looks pretty weak reasoning for the most part.

Almost looks like they wanted you to feel that ease off of them so you’ll town read them.

Wait what? I was trying to get koopa to townread me?

If you're town, you werent.

[Flavor Leaf]

The Italiano scumread relied on you pulling a strong scum move, and i dont necessarily think that's the case.

I use that tactic a lot as scum, so it kinda like triggered something, but seeing you post more in real time while I'm here's kind of let me feel your personality more, and I don't think that's what you were doing at all.

I also kinda used the wagon on you to ingrain myself into this game more.

[Flavor Leaf]

Ugh, just when I start feeling better about you, you go and post 224.

Yes. That's exactly where I started feeling off on Koopa which is why I found it so weird that Human actively started to town read Koopa more there.

[Flavor Leaf]

Im getting more confident about koopa being town
Im not townreading Flavor Leaf yet.

I'll do a deeper read Monday maybe. I had a deadline last Wednesday. I still have it now. >. >

Oh and I don't agree with FL's assessment on ItalianVD. I think theyre fine and they have been active (like, not just words. Did you miss the push on koopa and on you? That's not nothing and I may have missed you addressing that.)

Not sure that makes FL scum because it's a very controversial read to make as scum, but it could be scum motivated. (ItalianVD sussed FL, this could be their retaliation, pocketing koopa in the process)

Still Im curious where this goes.

Pedit: Havent read the Pedits yet

VOTE: Italiano

I guess it doesn't ever hurt to crank up the heat. Scorpious was more a "do something" vote anyways.

You dont admit this as scum, I think

@Italiano - this happened the page after Koopa's posts there.

This is also Human's interpretation of what my push was on you, and sure, I understand when he thought I was calling you fluffy, but after clearing it up, he decided to vote me, which is inherently scummy and then went into immediate dismissal mode that was different than his initial posts.

I believe he came into that with the angle of getting into a 1v1 with me to break up Koopa/FL from developing.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also Mala has not once reacted to Italiano's shade against her, but has replied to mostly everyone pushing her otherwise.

This is my issue. I've given her plenty of things to respond to and I only get a joke. I think?

I get why that's offputting, but I definitely think that's +town especially when they're under suspicion more than other slots.


I feel Koopa/Italiano/Mala triangle are all town.

[Flavor Leaf]

let's sip on that KoopaTalianoMala Flavored drink, y'all

[Flavor Leaf]

let's sip on that KoopaTalianoMala Flavored drink, y'all

Sigh, you all just gonna let Human hide behind that 1v1 he was trying to do to break up Koopa/FL.

Koopa, you made me sad.

[Flavor Leaf]

woe is me woe is me

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, I guess I'll be out here looking for a town block.

Scum are welcome to apply.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think Human played in a way to break up a FL/Koopa and to actively have you defend him, so it makes sense you see him as town.

Hmm, we flipped with Italiano, I guess.

I'll go back to the drawing board. My reads net trap is getting old anyways.

Human on the bottom, though.

I think if Italiano is scum, though, Human still has a high chance to have chainsaw defended them with their fake angling.

[Flavor Leaf]

The catchup nested within spoilers is performative to me,

i was trying to elicit some sort of interaction with italiano, but they stone walled.


Fine, you convinced me.

Human/Italiano/Roden + 1 lesser active player way too early scum prediction, and also all based individually as well.

In that order for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I thought I was caught up, guess not. Been reading pg 11 and I'm not that comfortable with HEM seemingly coming to bat for me. Like it's cool in a sense, but I always feel icky when people do it and 265 is just goofy. Like I don't think it makes him scum, but I just never like it.

it's not goofy behind the scenes, but it was made to actively create a 1v1 he could hide behind and get people to tune out of.

that exact reasoning is why it is an effective scum play especially after his case had fallen apart. there's absolutely no angle by them, and they wanted to discredit me from picking up any momentum.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know what, I can see Human doing that to an Italiano town in that scenario if Koopa is also town.

It's almost like hiding behind my Italiano scum read, but here's the thing. Hmm.

Human acted in a way that I thought Italiano would if Italiano was scum, but Italiano just sitting back and letting the wagon happen because what else are they gonna do is a little townie.

OMGUS, I choose you! (even though there is multiple reasons that it isnt actually OMGUS.

VOTE: Humaneating

1: Their initial reason for suspicion was based on facts from a misunderstanding, and only after it was cleared up, did they choose to vote.
2: This happens after Koopa and I both voted onto Italiano, meaning if Koopa/FL is T/T, then scum would definitely need to start breaking this up. This is especially true of Malakittens is also town.
3: Their push is just kinda forced in a way that looks to break up a townblock. Like they came into it with the plan of eventually pushing me, and once we got cleared up and went to diffuse, they chose to vote. That was almost like a desperate act to make sure that the heat of Monk vs FL kept up, and I'm willing to give them the fire.

quoting so the reasons keep coming up.

Personally, I think I'm just right with this. If he ends up being scum, regardless of if people dont care for these reasons, they are 100% correct, and I feel are valid to see no matter what tbh. It's a case, now finding out whether or not it is true is the game.


Needs more pressure.

[Flavor Leaf]

y'know what - FL is right, there is a chance Mala/Italiano are town, and I am just trying to hero solve it at this point(and ego push back on what is a terrible push)

Now look at the game from this perspective, and think about reasons why a scumHuman at the time they jumped in would want to discredit me asap.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'd assume HEM is fairly town up to this point

Let's get into this since this a bit more.

HEM's early posting when I was feeling out the game was null, you know, when we were going back and forth about charm and whatnot, but I think his positioning around Mala was fair given the context and I didn't think it was scummy. At the time koopa's was more scummy and to a degree NK's, but I didn't see anything wrong with HEM's push.

yeah, his early is neutral. Like I said, most of the time there isn't action early game.

He made an action when he angled towards me because if I am correct in Koopa/Mala town while I was pushing Italiano town, Human pushing and angling at me is Win/Win because for all they knew I was about to tunnel Italiano, and it would set scum up well.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

I did an ISO skim, and as a holistic work, I didn't like it. - if FL is right on HEM, the pairing here is also possible.

Yeah, it's possible, just not really an important wagon.

I hate voting outliers because they're essentially just compromise wagons.

If you think that that pairing is possible, why not vote Human and see how JV reacts? As of right now, there's no case besides "little content" you can make on JV, so it's just gonna be fluffy noise.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fair warning, I'm more likely to defend JacksonVirgo than some other slots if there isn't a strong case against him, if only because I'm more confident in my ability to read them over others.

[Flavor Leaf]

but ill let you case it through.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know, reading ISOs is so powerful. I go to reISO HEM, and I see the very things you are saying, FL. It doesn't ever hurt to reread something when someone makes an accusation somewhere. The holistic work is always the most important.

Omg, that's so funny, I just checked JV's ISO.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know, reading ISOs is so powerful. I go to reISO HEM, and I see the very things you are saying, FL. It doesn't ever hurt to reread something when someone makes an accusation somewhere. The holistic work is always the most important.

yeah, i got frantic because i called it out that they were gonna get to hide behind a 1v1 by angling that way towards me.

At the very least, even if i'm wrong with Human, i like that you're able to see what I'm talking about.

[Flavor Leaf]

Spoiler:

no further questions

HEM is town. That is all

VOTE: Malakittens
This one is pretty obvious.

VOTE: NK15
This one is pretty obvious.

But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

Frustration can come from scum, too. In this case it is not town-indicative.

The most scummiest votes on my wagon is NK15 & koopa. Koopa because I didn't like the trajectory, NK15 because that post was scummy af.
Roden is prob town as stated before. HEM is up in the air.

Koopa looks decent, don't agree with you for them but NK15 I can agree with. HEM is very likely Town, but not something I am willing to delve into as if I get everyone to TR them they gonna die. Roden I am indifferent about

Confident in this vote.

I am confident in my villaread on NK15, and thus this string of posts - particularly in a wolf!HEM world - are wolfy.[/quote]

I get it. I unfortunately after looking at it more am starting to lean more town on JV, though. =/

I'm also leaning town on NK15, but I see the vote onto Nk15 as townie who's possibly incorrect rather than scum trying to do anything. I don't think JV does that as scum. Personality read.

continue pushing it, though, I'm just giving me two cents. It's a fine read, I get why you're doing it.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know, reading ISOs is so powerful. I go to reISO HEM, and I see the very things you are saying, FL. It doesn't ever hurt to reread something when someone makes an accusation somewhere. The holistic work is always the most important.

I'm gonna cool down now, I've been here a while.

Seems like Human actively wanted me to drown myself out tbh.

It's at least acknowledged and seen by one person as a possible scenario, and thats good enough for me at this point in the game.

[Flavor Leaf]

im not seeing what you're seeing when you mean both kitty's posts are fairly pure tonally that i can dismiss them as town, and i think scum would be more trigger happy to give that assessment.
so now i'm asking you how you reached that judgment.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

this could be an anti partner from JV-Human to shade onto Malakittens.

Human had early scum reads on Mala/Koopa, but switched when they needed to go against me.

This could be a Kitty-Human pairing post.

[Flavor Leaf]

Mala villagery tho, why do you want to vote only villagers mr monkey?

villagey how?

That entrance is fairly pure tonally, what's bad about it?

That it assumes that FL is town?

it should always just be assumed i'm town

Flavor Leaf
Most Cunning Manipulator
Don Corleone
A guy smoking a cigarette rolling his eye on you
Location: San Francisco

Yep. I can trust this guy.

while this is a little nitpicky, I can see scum throwing this line to add just a little bit extra paranoia to my slot, even though my line was pretty throwaway ego joke.

Wouldnt use it as a main thing ever, but just a few extra sprinkles to the scum case sundae.

[Flavor Leaf]

I gotta say, you feel very malleable as a player, like wherever the wind takes you, you'll just blow with it.

I agree with this, and I don't think it comes from scum in this situation. they've fought me with my push on you, and then my push on Human, but then ended up coming to agreement after discussion, which I think is townie.

That type of playstyle is very hard to pull off successfully as scum, and I don't think it's happening here, i think they're genuinely analyzing the game atm.

[Flavor Leaf]

There's a theory that Human/Koopa are scum together, and that the plan was for Koopa to sheep me, and Human go against me, hoping to cause an Italiano vs FL scenario with the two scum in the backseats, but i'd rather just work with a scumKoopa in that regard.

Koopa trying to get JV started makes sense as scum in that scenario.

a possibility.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, there was a disconnect when you were catching up, I could see Koopa gathering some off energy through that.

[Flavor Leaf]

Mala villagery tho, why do you want to vote only villagers mr monkey?

villagey how?

That entrance is fairly pure tonally, what's bad about it?

That it assumes that FL is town?

it should always just be assumed i'm town

Flavor Leaf
Most Cunning Manipulator
Don Corleone
A guy smoking a cigarette rolling his eye on you
Location: San Francisco

Yep. I can trust this guy.

while this is a little nitpicky, I can see scum throwing this line to add just a little bit extra paranoia to my slot, even though my line was pretty throwaway ego joke.

Wouldnt use it as a main thing ever, but just a few extra sprinkles to the scum case sundae.

Joes are NAI.

They dont have to be, I also actively stated I was being nitpicky with it too. odd choice to defend the slot there

[Flavor Leaf]

I believe that Human is attempting a White Knight pocket attempt on Italiano to lower my presence in the game as scum.

It isn't a chainsaw.

What's a chainsaw? I saw that mentioned twice now

Player A (Town) pushes Player B (Scum).

Player C (Scum) pushes Player A. <--- that's the chainsaw. They defend their partner by attacking the one thats pushing their partner.

[Flavor Leaf]

I believe that Human is attempting a White Knight pocket attempt on Italiano to lower my presence in the game as scum.

It isn't a chainsaw.

What's a chainsaw? I saw that mentioned twice now

Player A (Town) pushes Player B (Scum).

Player C (Scum) pushes Player A. <--- that's the chainsaw. They defend their partner by attacking the one thats pushing their partner.

Don't see how this is typically scum!AI either in and of itself, Town who thinks that a case on somebody to be manipulative or overall opportunistic etc would do the same.

You gotta look at the timing of it.

Chainsawing is one of the most common tactics for scum.

If he’s town, it’s not a chainsaw.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have a section on it in my scum guide.

[Flavor Leaf]

If you are scum with Human, then what you are doing would be considered Hatcheting, also talked about in the guide.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm interested in how others perceive Flavor's play here - I'm inclined to think town because I think they're genuinely trying to solve and put necessary pressure on other players, but by the same token they seem skilled enough to approach the game this way as mafia and potentially manage to get away with it. I do find it interesting that they've basically been able to alter the direction of the game with pretty minimal pushback at all beyond those they've suspected.

I've found ways to use my skills as scum when I am town for sure.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

Why don't you just do it instead of posturing about it? I've been waiting for you to actually do something like this for a bit now.

Another thing up against this, while I've been pushing the appearance of not doing anything/lurky, if you check my ISO, even though the tone is probably there, I feel like you can see multiple posts of vaguely where my head is at.

I tend to find it better for me not to immediately come in the beginning of the game because I'm someone who can essentially take over by talking a lot, so early games I try to stay in the background until it's time for me to pounce.

You can poke at the kitty, but I got hops and claws.

I also dont mind pulling attention onto me if I need to. I like interacting with people directly.

This does interest me a little - Flavor initially says they don't want to take over the game by talking too much, but since then I'd argue they pretty much have taken over the game. That's not a bad thing if they're in the right because they've helped move things forward and put interesting ideas out there, but it does feel like a very deliberate and quick switch-up in approach. Is it town just latching onto ideas they've developed or mafia perhaps sensing a chance to take control?

I'm liking your posts.

Yeah, I definitely did take over after I said that. I got invested, and that's why I was trying to play the lurk troll a bit at first, because I didnt want to overrun the game for a while, but then I did once I got more invested in the game. The Italiano push alongside my first reads list was heavily performative to get people to react towards me.

I'm a performer by personality. the spotlight loves me.

[Flavor Leaf]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

[Flavor Leaf]

The hyper posters need to chill out with throwing around the “lurker” tag..

It’s the weekend, a couple of you are about to be gravely disappointed.

dont worry, im a hyper poster who protects lurkers.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL, do you townread my slot?

most of the time, i do a lot of the time, but some of the time, i do only a little bit of the time.

[Flavor Leaf]

RVS where I learned mafia is referred to as “joke phase”..

Most people think RVS is a joke phase and has no actual merit. I believe it's incredibly important because it's when social dynamics begin to form.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL, do you townread my slot?

most of the time, i do a lot of the time, but some of the time, i do only a little bit of the time.

I'm going to guess you know why i am asking - as you seem to have avoided interacting with scorpious/italiano on their pushes.

I'm at a point where I'll call out them if they're too much, and probably wouldn't vote you, and probably will slight defend, but a push is fine.

I'd rather they be on Monkey, though.

I dont think Scorpious is scum.

Italiano I've been town reading lately, but I definitely can see them being scum. They had the benefit of seeing me scum read them, and were able to change things up if they were scum, + it wasnt too strong.

Human vote temporarily only to move is a bit scummy, but it's fine.

HumanMonkeat could be just a town monkey, but they're tryin' real hard to continue the 1v1.

[Flavor Leaf]

easier than actually playing the game for them

[Flavor Leaf]

I get the chainsaw thing with HEM now..

Early solve attempt is Koopa, HEM, and most likely one of the quiet ones..

Could be as simple Facebones.. but that’s reachy this early.

yeah, you're town, or saying all the right sweet nothings into my ear.

I dont actually hate a Koopa/HEM pairing either, that is one of the possibilities if Koopa is scum. I think I mentioned this pairing earlier.

[Flavor Leaf]

As a matter of fact. I feel way more comfortable here.

VOTE: koopa

Leaf, really look at Joppa again and tell me you don’t see it. I know you are on HEM, but I’m way more set on loops.

Koopa scum requires Human scum for me, tbh

[Flavor Leaf]

I think if FL is found to be intentionally instigating fights and retreating once its started - thats a likely hit by the way - be on the lookout. Although I do feel their pushes have been genuine and not with this intent however.

this implies you think as scum I couldn't handle many fights. Your defense on Human is poor, but like I said before, you're either scum with him, or town who got pocketed by him exactly like I stated human's angle after coming after me was doing.

[Flavor Leaf]

You know what, I think Koopa's just pocketed by ScumHuman.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf
Speak plainly.

Sure will.

I think Koopa's just pocketed by ScumHuman.

Can't make it plainer than that.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do expect to be put into the position by scum, where one or two will probably push me, then the other(s) town read me, and try to get me to push through a townie to take the heat from it.

If I'm really looking for it, I can see a possible ScumKoopa TMI'ing a TownHuman, but Koopa's vote on to me is just super bad if scum because I definitely feel there's enough momentum to take Koopa out, but that also makes me think KoopaTown if I can see that in the gamestate already.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am very hard to pocket. I do not believe that.

i'll believe it when i see it.

You seem easy to pocket at the moment.

[Flavor Leaf]

The issue is I think you are trying to instigate right now rather than solve, and subtly pushing me in a way that can be backpedaled later.

me instigating is me solving.

I don't believe it's been subtle. I've left you open pretty loudly.

[Flavor Leaf]

Can you link me to a game where you do something similar as town?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987

i was April Ludgate, only game in the past year or so. might have had 1 more a while back, but cant remember.

This is for you Roden. Ill choose to give you half since Koopa asked for it. I was gonna just ignore your request.

Eat it up, cuz unless I'm trying to brag about a scum gambit or town epic solve, i probs wont link another due to lazy

[Flavor Leaf]

this game's pretty fun if you dont stress over reads too much. Day 1 never should overstress. Day 3+ yeah start to stress.

[Flavor Leaf]

hah look it's another projection

he's pocketing koopa live!

@Koopa - look at me pocketing as town in that game as well.

[Flavor Leaf]

Cheers.do you think we could each have a piece of the solve btw?
I have scorpious and you have HEM?
I am going to consider we are clashing because we are on the right track in different directions.

I really don't think Scorpious is scum, and kinda would defend there even if I didnt scum read HEM. Check Scorpious out from that game I just linked. I started to town read him very strongly in the late game there.

[Flavor Leaf]

It's possible, though, but I'm a mason so i have the different pov, obvi

[Flavor Leaf]

It's possible, though, but I'm a mason so i have the different pov, obvi

Didn't you do this claim before as scum in a game with me?

Probably, I do it a lot as both alignments.

I believe there was a Friendly Neighbor claim gambit with Dkkoba and I once when we were both scum and I believe you were in it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I've got burned with a fake mason claim where I was town, and they were scum, then ScumCreature killed me that night, and coasted the entire game to victory.

[Flavor Leaf]

Spoiler: Ctrl+F Roden

Roden and Italian are the two that I've sniffed some scum energy on thus far. Too early to tell if that's accurate or not, because at least with Italian I've seen a few townie energy auras coming off of em.

If you really want me to put a way too early readslist, here ya go.
FL
This still needs an answer!

Malakittens
Scorpious
Koopashell
Not Known 15

MalcolmTucker
JacksonVirgo
KittyTacky
humaneatingmonkey

Facebones
Saladman27

ItalianoVD
Roden

No order within tiers. I usually have a Red color on the bottom, and that is not present here. Orange is just lower than neutral in Facebones/Salad. I dont expect to be right this early. Green are people I'm confident at the moment are town, but it's like Page 9, this can easily flip.

Blue are people I haven't seen anything that stood out to me negatively, and didn't mind their tones.

I expect scum to be spreadout throughout the tiers based on what social dynamics and positioning are happening.

Roden being scum actually makes Human scum more likely here as well if Italiano/Koopa are both town.

But I dont have that complex a read on Roden, just early game natural positioning by everyone in relation to where I was.

I'd say I'm more onto Human Red tier, and Italiano blue tier right now, though.

The antenna line also made a Koopa-FL an in game connection, like it was then trying to put us on some type of stage to either be scum read together, or cause a TvS.

Again yeah. Reading that early interaction between you too pinged me. Even though it was sorta RVS, it just didn't seem like anything. And it was more koopa than you.

Yeah, italiano is green now.

This is me green'ing italiano while noting that this is exactly the best way a scum italiano could have gotten out of my scum read on them.

No doubt the Human interaction opened up my perspective on the overall gamestate.

Human/Roden + 2 less active players is my way too early solve.

The catchup nested within spoilers is performative to me,

i was trying to elicit some sort of interaction with italiano, but they stone walled.


Fine, you convinced me.

Human/Italiano/Roden + 1 lesser active player way too early scum prediction, and also all based individually as well.

In that order for me.

Ok this is probably why I didn't remember who scum read me and why. There hasn't been a substantial reason or push given yet even though all roads apparently lead to me.

Leaf, what's up?

Yes please share that reasoning with us.

Start answering the question FL...

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

I've also brought up multiple times how my reads list was essentially performative/trap to get people to react, and that my Orange scum reads were just lean scum reads not real.

The choice to bring that up by NK 15 will knock NK 15 down from green, though. My comment to Roden was pretty hidden, so makes sense it wasn't seen, but seems like a choice to put more pressure now that i'm on another relief of pressure.

You can see the ups and downs with the pressure on me, as soon as it starts getting relieved, someone makes a comment towards me that can lead to momentum in bringing it back.

Both alignments will do it, but that's exactly it. Both alignments will do it.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is for you Roden. Ill choose to give you half since Koopa asked for it. I was gonna just ignore your request.

I also talked about how I was just gonna ignore Roden. That was a tactic I actively chose to see how people/Roden would react.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not a personal thing, just felt my posts had already explained as much of the Roden orange tier as I felt like doing. Anymore would cause the discussion to come away from Italiano at the time, and then Human, and onto Roden, which I no longer really even felt/cared to push. I actively chose to push Italiano over Roden, so was kinda just past it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Let's do an update

Malakittens
Scorpious
ItalianoVD

MalcolmTucker
JacksonVirgo
Koopashell

Facebones
Saladman27

KittyTacky
Roden
Not Known 15

humaneatingmonkey

This time no orange tier.

I don't really expect multiple scum in the pink tier, and the pink tier is a VERY light scum lean, but close to neutral. Like I said, I dont expect more than 1 scum in there, at most 2. Bottom 4 is definitely not the scum team.

Probably scum in my blue tier, but I'm lean towning on all 3. I expect that I am town reading at least 1 scum.

If Malakittens were scum, she's playing a strong what I shall name, Koala'ing, play. I town read her, she town read back, and just Koala her way to the end, but I town read her before she did that. and we had similar reads at similar times of the game, like the timing of the koopa town read.

Human was inverted that they didnt town read koopa during that time, but did in the time that Italiano and I both felt off on a Koopa post.

[Flavor Leaf]

no order within tiers.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually, I can't shake the feeling that NK15 chose to bring that up because scum wanted more pressure on me because I'm pushing Human. Moving Nk15 down to Orange, and Roden up to Neutral. While the other Neutral's I have little to read on, it's not the same with Roden, there's a couple more layers, not much, and it's more just because I'm torn. Neutrals could have a scum in them.

Malakittens
Scorpious
ItalianoVD

MalcolmTucker
JacksonVirgo
Koopashell

Facebones
Saladman27
Roden

KittyTacky

Not Known 15

humaneatingmonkey

No order within tiers.

[Flavor Leaf]

team is probably not my bottom 3.

[Flavor Leaf]

it's just out of everything NK15 could have brought up, it was something so negligible in my initial Roden orange on the first tier that I had already basically retracted and stated wasnt strong, especially considering after I pushed Italiano, I basically dropped the Roden read.

[Flavor Leaf]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=125

i originally town read NK15's posts on Page 6, but looking back on it, it looks like their sole intention is getting the overall gamestate vibes to push Mala as scum without actually saying anything, almost nitpicking and deflecting any reasons to town read the slot.

I thought it was just early game banter before, and did see it as a little townie, but in conjunction to the move he just did now, it seems like NK15 has been playing the type of game to not let people pick up momentum.

NK15 is a big part of why the Malakittens scum push was able to gain momentum as he was like the nail in the coffin, he just didnt do the most work on it, if that makes sense. He let the townies push the townie that he fueled.

[Flavor Leaf]

NK15 is my strongest villaread and it is backed up by meta...gonna need some citation.

I dont care about meta because I know how easy it is to abuse meta on a dime for me to run circles around a player who relies on meta, especially if I'm aware a player is gonna use meta.

you also are town reading Human, though, so personally, I can't trust your reads right now. I will take them into consideration with the possibility you are town coming from a different POV, but atm, I believe you to be the one flipped.

And it's not like I don't know NK15. I know their mod style even, and know that they've seen me play as both town solving a game and scum stomping a game.

[Flavor Leaf]

And there is absolutely nothing here that a ScumNK15 couldnt do, if you think he's town by meta this early, you probably should reevaluate how you use meta in the first place. You're going to get danced around one day.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually, Koopa, you're doing more than anyone to derail momentum by actively defending both of my town reads, and helping human with a vote towards me.

If you're town, that's gonna end up why you get misfaded in the long run. If you're willing to die on the hill that they're town, we might have to test that out a bit later.

You also were trying to give compromise wagons.

My town reads are the ones voting you, and I'm going on a limb to defend you, so if you dont think Human is correct, you dont think NK15 is correct, and you dont think I am at all correct.


Just interesting to put all of that side by side.

Frankly, I still think that it's more likely you're just town getting danced around.

[Flavor Leaf]

The only times I have been pocketed were when wolves broke their meta in a big way or when they do a very good bus - neither of those things apply here.

^

Doesn't really mean anything to me.

[Flavor Leaf]

You may be able to abuse meta on a dime but NK15 is not you.

I've decided the three wagons I'm okay with today.

Human, NK15, and Koopa.

In that order of preference.

NK15 might pass Human depending on how the gamestate goes.

Koopa would be a compromise for me and me putting trust into my town reads reads in a way that helps me catch scum too because my scum reads wont be getting defended.

I also actively believe there to be scum in my top half.

[Flavor Leaf]

Obviously, everyone should bring up their wagons that they would like to happen, we dont need to do mine, just putting my thoughts out there on where I'm likely to vote for the day.

[Flavor Leaf]

You mistake me for a player who doesn't have good reads in most of his games.

I just see a lot of self meta talk, at the moment. I don't care about most games, I care about this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

*yawn*

crumbing PR then claiming early when getting into a 1v1 is scummy.

[Flavor Leaf]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

watch me.

[Flavor Leaf]

If you wish to live, explain your progession on my slot *in detail* because it is my view that you have tried to manipulate me and use me as a tool for you.

sure. that's been my main focus with you.

[Flavor Leaf]

*yawn*

crumbing PR then claiming early when getting into a 1v1 is scummy.

I crumbed way earlier than you believe it to be. Again, good luck.

Dont care about the crumbing early part, it's the play of using it to empower a 1v1.

what does "way earlier" matter? I wasnt claiming you did it specifically with the idea in mind to 1v1 me.

dont even know if you're scum, i've had you in lean town.

Dumb play as town, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

You were already voting me too, so your vote was just posturing.

[Flavor Leaf]

There are no masons in the setup.

you also said this, meaning you were already setting this up, regardless of alignment.

[Flavor Leaf]

Paranoia is making me think of a theory where Koopa/Italian are scum, and now Koopa's trying to damage control this Italian push by going along with me, and pushing Mala/Roden together more, which is strong considering I was also suspicious of Roden.

Not my first thought, but making note of it for later in the game I can look at.

I'll have to get a little scummier, though. Might play around with getting myself wagon'd later, idk

.

If people are thinking the way I'm playing right now is scummy, don't know what to say, you probably need to look into how scum actually play.

Backpedaling, and fighting with people to get momentum on them is not how scum play.


I'm a magnet who attracts scum to my wagon.

You are also acting like I haven't been the main wagon for a minute now. To be fair, mala was sitting on me for a while, but still, I was the main wagon with 3 votes on me for pages, and as soon as it eases up, here it goes.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am strongarming now, I feel confident now.

Good luck, hope you're right.

[Flavor Leaf]

Curious, how does a 1v1 between you and Dkkoba work out, Koopa?

[Flavor Leaf]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have gotten to the point where there is way too much of a disparity between our perspectives and the nail on the coffin was trying to push a PoE that includes 2 people who are actually towny.

if you are town, this shows you still have a lot to learn.

You're seeing the disparity as bad on Day 1.

[Flavor Leaf]

You also don't know how to handle having different reads than another player.

Go look at that game I linked to you--Mathblade and I had a very similar dynamic and they pushed me as lockscum all game. And I actively said I thought they were wrong the entire time. They were a mason.

[Flavor Leaf]

I expect NK15 to join my wagon, maybe Kitty.

A neutral could probably join.

It's very possible I'm faded.

That's just not a possibility to happen on Day 1 if I were scum. Can hate that as a reason all you want, my town flip would prove that to be true and completely break your "im right most of the time" self meta, making your first push over here an incorrect push.

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean there is a lot of OMGUS style reads in the realm of NK15 and HEM as well as myself partially vs you - and myself with scorpious and italiano - but the difference is I am seeing the reasons behind these players' pushes as shallow against me while the ones against you are more thought out.

so what reasons do you have to think I'm scum rather than a cocky town player spitting a lot of shit out there for harsh reaction?

[Flavor Leaf]

more curious to learn who you are as a person/player than for the game, but they do coincide.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't think you are lockscum, but trying to discredit my point of view won't do you any favors.

I don't need to discredit your POV. You've just outed yourself as an overreactionary playstyle to people who don't agree with your reads is all.

I wasn't discrediting you at all, I was just pushing my thoughts on this game.

Frankly, you were the player I thought I was working with the most to get my reads, and is why I've defended you multiple times even when you were voting me.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is a policy vote.

No it's not. You literally just gave a reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean there is a lot of OMGUS style reads in the realm of NK15 and HEM as well as myself partially vs you - and myself with scorpious and italiano - but the difference is I am seeing the reasons behind these players' pushes as shallow against me while the ones against you are more thought out.

so what reasons do you have to think I'm scum rather than a cocky town player spitting a lot of shit out there for harsh reaction?

I'll ask you this - are you particularly accurate as town? I am working with the assumption that being verbose and good as wolf, you are also able to transfer that knowledge to your towngame and give you good reads that way

.

I'm a better late game town player than i am late game scum player. i am a better early game scum player than i am an early game town player.

I would say I'm pretty even as both roles, might give the edge to scum simply because I think my knowledge of how to play scum far succeeds most, simply from the sheer volume of my game experience + loads of modding/reviewing.

I do power tunnel a town at least once generally to get to the end point, which is why my Human push could easily be me power tunneling Human for feeling scum energy around it, but landing on the wrong spot.

It's Day 1. I go balls to the wall sometimes.


You act like I was ignoring your posts, but I feel like I've been talking to you a lot, and I feel where you're coming from, I just didnt think it was true. That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just letting you know how I feel.


You're playing like you wanted me to sheep you with blind faith when I'd rather just tell you exactly how I feel, but you don't seem to know how to separate the two.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is a policy vote.

No it's not. You literally just gave a reason.

Yes, a policy reason. I assume you lie about your reads as town and scum, and that's enough for a policy vote.

That's your fault for assuming.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: scorpious
Although? I'm being honest, the subtle emotion I can sense behind your words feels genuine and not wolfy.

Yeah, I feel I'm obv town, tbh. You know I'm town, you just let emotions take over you. Happens to everyone.

[Flavor Leaf]

Are you a DkKoba alt?

No, I coached Dkkoba when he first came to this site, though. That's my little apprentice.

[Flavor Leaf]

Are you a DkKoba alt?

No, I coached Dkkoba when he first came to this site, though. That's my little apprentice.

Mainly just because we rolled scum together when we first met. For the first couple days, I thought they were gonna end my scum streak. Dkkoba eventually went down, but we played a strong gambit that game. The aforementioned Friendly Neighbor gambit.

I do think very highly of Dkkoba's play, though, and they do better than most with their attempts to 1v1 me.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: scorpious
Although? I'm being honest, the subtle emotion I can sense behind your words feels genuine and not wolfy.

Yeah, I feel I'm obv town, tbh. You know I'm town, you just let emotions take over you. Happens to everyone.

Pocketing.

Everyone already knows I've been pocketing Koopa all game.

Don't make me pocket you.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Koopa - I don't think I'm correct with all those reads I've had, I'm even starting to flip flop on Roden a bit more. Mainly because I want to see NK15 push harder if he's scum, but I don't think I'm wrong on all of them either.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Not Known 15 - Have you ever pushed a policy vote as scum before?

[Flavor Leaf]

That was a fun few pages.

Replacement might change the tide of this game drastically, so it's food time for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Not Known 15 - Have you ever pushed a policy vote as scum before?

Yes.

good to know.

Sorry, wrong account.

[Flavor Leaf]

It isnt one anymore though.

It never was.

[Flavor Leaf]

'twas just a buzz word you used.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: NK15

I love when people push OMGUS even though I case them before their votes. Just makes it so easy to battle against them.

Human could be town I was powertunneling. That was something I was aware of from the beginning, but I do think the case I had on Human was pretty strong, but that'll always be there.

I'm ready to test these waters.

[Flavor Leaf]

I need to find out if NK15 is scum or just nonsensical town.

[Flavor Leaf]

'twas just a buzz word you used.

No.
You said you don't lie about reads as town. So you are scum, then, because you lied about your roden read. If you are town: Where am I wrong?

eh, semantics. You're looking into it in a black and white fashion when I'm very obviously a rainbow.

[Flavor Leaf]

it was more i felt it at the time, then stopped feeling it. the more you talk, the more i actually start to scum read Roden again, though.

Mainly because the more you talk the more I'm getting a feeling you might be town who's just looking at the game in black and white.

I get my reads through direct interaction.

Otherwise it's mainly gamestate reads from the perspective I have at the time I give the read.

Roden was all gamestate reads at the time since I hadn't interacted with them.

Scum manipulate gamestate, so by looking at my past gamestate reads in the future, I can look to see where scum were manipulating things as the days go on.

[Flavor Leaf]

UNVOTE: Not Known 15

[Flavor Leaf]

I usually get scumread for this but eh who cares.

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

First game.
Town.
Lurker.
I have never lied.

I would never lie.

[Flavor Leaf]

Even if I fake claim as town, I'm not lying, I'm just saying something that isn't true.

I know, wild logic, but is that something you think that I could see as true?

[Flavor Leaf]

@Koopa - If you were wrong on 1 of NK15, Human, or Roden, who would it be?

[Flavor Leaf]

Which of NK15 or Human is a stronger town read for you?

[Flavor Leaf]

Well... what are your current and past gamestate reads and their reasons, then?

Reasons are for scums.

[Flavor Leaf]

For the most part, i always give my thoughts on reads, like I’m better at doing that as scum than town even.

If i don’t, that means it’s more tone/gut/gamestate from my pov.

If anything, it’s like a list so people can know where my head’s at.

Refusing to give reasons isn’t scummy because as scum, I could easily make some shit up that people would like, let’s be honest. I got the gift of gab, and it’s one of my best strengths as scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh, if the replacement is who I think it is, this game’s gonna get real fun.

[Flavor Leaf]

It’s more in the line of “not sure how to put it into words, but i have this energy feeling it here”

Do you think it puts me in a better position to not explain?

Do you think I wouldn’t be able to put together something as scum that would have most players in the game feel acceptable considering the time it was spent?

Kinda over this conversation overall, this was like pre page 10 stuff, seems like you’re making a lot out of a little, which could be your way of getting deeper integrated into the game, so i guess it’s fine

[Flavor Leaf]

More to read about NK15, so net positive overall

[Flavor Leaf]

I would say the lack of reasoning now helped the game get a better read on you. Would you disagree?

[Flavor Leaf]

Man, this human's obsessed with me.

@Roden - wasn't that serious

So much FL talk when I was away, that's what I like to see. Even when I'm not here, the spotlight loves me

Nah you don't get to backpedal after you made several solves that make me a PoE choice without explaining anything.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is probably coming from town who hasn't learned how to look past getting POE scum read as a personal thing.

I'm not invested enough in this game to care that you scum read me.

What does matter is that you kept trying to tie me in to multiple solves, never explained why, then backed off when nobody bit and you got confronted on it.

Nah, you just have a misinterpreted view on an older version of the gamestate

[Flavor Leaf]

Because you specifically ignore the fact that even in those posts, I actively stated “i don’t expect it to be correct”

[Flavor Leaf]

I do have a suggestion that we should stop focusing on FL, myself, and monkey. I'm going to probably tone down my posting massively. I want other slots discussed because this is choking the gamestate.

I’d like it to be noticed that once this happened, and yet again it was about to diffuse that both Roden and HEM popped in and made a comment to keep the momentum going.


I am not wrong that there is scum energy in that bubble.

Here’s the thing, Koopa, yes, I push slots you see as town as scum, but I’m actively aware that it’s likely not all scum, meaning that in theory, our reads do line up more underneath the surface, if that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

Italiano's telling me right now that not only he finds FL's flip on his slot believable (which I don't see), he's telling me that he believes FL clearing him there is town-indicative.

Is this an accurate representation, Mr. Sir ItalianoVD MD?

Why yes it is my good monkey sir.

Here’s the thing that makes this extra spicy.

Human said the flip isn’t believable yet was actually trying to push me because they thought you were town, and they angled it in a way that was factually incorrect on a base level.

So their “not believable flipping of read” is also built upon that factually incorrect base they presented, but then when they found that out they started the push.

If HEM was coming from a town POV, a Town HEM should WANT me to see Italiano as Town, but now the thing that they were calling me out for is flipped and they’re pushing as the exact opposite.


VOTE: Human

@Malcolm - if this is similar to me tunneling you in the last game, then there’s gotta be scum energy around it, but I do feel the case on Human is far stronger than the case I had on you when I pushed you.

[Flavor Leaf]

You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return.

Does anybody here truly believe that I dont want any confrontation?

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

what do you mean I'm refusing to let anyone peek? I feel my thoughts are essentially out there on almost every slot in the game. If anything, I'm giving more than the majority of the players in this game.

My read on you at the time was just that insignificant. Now you just wanted to make more out of it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm giving more than the majority of the players in this game.

this isn't a shade on anyone, I've just been super active today and yesterday is all.

[Flavor Leaf]

Your point makes no sense, Roden. Do you not know where I stand on essentially every slot in this game?

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh trust me, if I’m correct, I’ll never be able to pocket them again.

[Flavor Leaf]

You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return.

Does anybody here truly believe that I dont want any confrontation?

Have you or have you not been dismissive of everyone who has been confrontational with you?

Idk if I’ve dismissed my confrontation with you, i feel I’ve been responding right back.

I’m just a slick, smooth talker.

[Flavor Leaf]

please pay attention

here's FL's program

do scummy shit → get scumread → omgus and say the scummy shit was a ruse all along and you are caught! if not townread: townread them a little just to soften them up → if not townread anyway → call them scum again!

FL projects a lot, and signals himself as town a lot through mafia theory, and if you catch him casing someone, see through his past posts or what he's currently doing now and you will see — he's doing it himself!

see my iso for examples

Best way to play day 1

[Flavor Leaf]

I like that you used program.

Tune in next week!


Generally there’s always that sentiment of “is it just me or is FL starting to make sense?”

As it goes on.

[Flavor Leaf]

Cases are scummy day 1.


I feel like my HEM read and case is particularly strong tbh

Both Koopa and Italian have agreed with understanding at one point.

I’m just the one negatively on your radar atm because I’m right in front of ya

[Flavor Leaf]

Lol at you still trying to act like I said that Poe solve with you in it even though I said “this is most likely incorrect”

[Flavor Leaf]

You’re gonna hear and see what you wanna at this point.

You’re pushing a “this is what town should do” vs a “this is what town actually do” kinda mentality and scum reading for the ladder because you don’t have anything else to go on.

[Flavor Leaf]

y'all just dont like the steeze

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm just having fun with y'all at this point.

I've explained why you wrong, just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not true.

[Flavor Leaf]

You guys just saying a lot of nothing and repeating yourselves at this point.

[Flavor Leaf]

I've also actively stated I dont believe you all to be scum, so you just choose what you wanna see.

[Flavor Leaf]

It's probably exactly 1 of the 2 of you are scum. And the more I just let you guys ramble on a lotta nothing's, the more I get to read off of you. I'm just sitting back eating popcorn now.

[Flavor Leaf]

You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return.

Does anybody here truly believe that I dont want any confrontation?

Have you or have you not been dismissive of everyone who has been confrontational with you?

You brought up being dismissive of everyone who has been confrontational with me.

You bringing up instances of dismissal is not the same thing is being constantly dismissal.

For instance, this is not a dismissal post. The last one was.

You are actively picking and choosing, something I have already stated with you.

This is either you as scum actively trying to misrep and discredit or it's you as town who has their own self tunnel/selective reading issue to deal with.

I've answered essentially everything, you just dont like the answer. That is absolutely not my problem at this point, I'll continue playing the game, and responding doing what I can to help people see I'm town, which will include looking for town and scum alike and creating instances for people to be able to read me and others off of.

[Flavor Leaf]

I dont think semantic disagreements is going to be useful in sorting FL. Instead of being upset in how they are playing, ask yourselves: is this player an informed party? Is what they are doing reasonable from the point of view of being aware of the wolf team?

I see a lot of playstyle/personaliry clashing going on right now and that isn't useful.

I disagree that Roden vs FL hasn't been useful.

I think there's actually a lot to read Roden and myself from it, including looking at how Roden's thought process is working from it.

Like are they being purposefully obtuse with their push and careful wording or are they just in a tunnel based on seeing what they feel were negative reads on them and not knowing how to take a slight lean scum read early in the game personally.

This doesnt have to be answered immediately, but the question posed is actively useful in the game.

[Flavor Leaf]

so one of you two is scum, but not the one you have a particularly strong case about

i wonder what your intentions are

prediction: the last one on the wagon gets a townread!

what do you mean? I'm voting you, and actively talking about how Roden can be coming from a town pov.

Note yet another misrep angle by Human.