Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty's entrance is villagery.

Is it particularly? Feels like a pretty standard entrance either side could play.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Self-consciousness isn't a scumtell IMHO.

I don't know how koopa "reads from the hip" on pages 1-2 and expects to be accurate in any way.

It's not, but apparently people think it's cool in order to use it as a scum tell, nor is being aggressive or defensive

but then when you go "its a rl thing"

thats frowned upon too

so lets move the topic along

if we dont want to move this topic along then just lim me now and get it over with

Following up on Mala, I don't think any of this is helpful from a town POV and again a lot of it seeks to deflect, but I don't think "lim me now" is particularly mafia - it feels like a very careless thing for scum to say at this point in the game. Obviously we're nowhere near an elimination yet but seen cases where someone who's town has eventually been eliminated on D1 for seeming anti-town/unhelpful and saying stuff like that. Feels a bit early for a mafia to be playing a gambit where they pretend not to care about being eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

Frustration can come from scum, too. In this case it is not town-indicative.

I agree, I'd have frustration in general (especially with little info in play) as fairly NAI a lot of the time. Just I don't think that alone makes Mala look more mafia, it's the wider deflections that concern me more.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

My main reason why I disagree with Koopa in placing pressure on me in order to give reads is I know if I try to do a readlist it's forced upon me in order to "produce content/reads". It's very unnatural for me to post a read list this early esp on page 4 when we don't have a lot of solid content. Now if I wasn't town or if he was doing this to another player I'd maybe go for a scumbuddy coaching another scumbuddy, but he's doing it to my slot.

I'm not really deflecting. I'm trying to move the game forward

, but everyone keep harping on the current subject is just giving either one of two oppurnities for scum to either "lurk" or jump in order to look like they are being productive.

Also I don't think roden is scum for what's happening right now. I think him and I are at a T v T fight.

I think a post like "lighten up" is very much deflecting - it's an attempt to get players to move off you by implying they're inherently in the wrong for suspecting you at all when a lot of D1 is ultimately trying to figure out players' motivations with limited info. That isn't necessarily mafia indicative either because if you don't believe you're in the wrong at all you're naturally going to want people to move off you, but like I say it's D1...people will pick up whatever leads are available and investigate them a bit. Plenty of us will be happy to move onto another subject but it doesn't mean suspicion of you has to be dropped entirely for the moment either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Confident in this vote.

How confident would you say you are? I think the Mala vote was very opportunistic but they've only made about four posts so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Confident in this vote.

How confident would you say you are? I think the Mala vote was very opportunistic but they've only made about four posts so far.

Oh really?
Why is voting obvious scum opportunistic?

Maybe it's my generally cautious approach to games early on but I rarely think anyone is "obvious" mafia early on, there's a case to be made from Mala but I'm far from convinced by any case arguing they're definitively scum at this point.

You've jumped into the game and pretty immediately tagged a vote onto the player currently under the most heat so far, if you end up sticking to your guns and really believe this then fair enough, but it'd be a convenient wagon for mafia to be on if Mala ends up being town, and at the very least allows you to look like you're pushing a suspected player if the wagon falls away a bit going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ah now I know why it wasn't obvious... I made a mistake.

Not completely getting what you missed originally re Mala, and why you've flipped here? The chain of events seemed pretty easy to follow re how they'd played and why they had come under pressure.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ah now I know why it wasn't obvious... I made a mistake.

Not completely getting what you missed originally re Mala, and why you've flipped here? The chain of events seemed pretty easy to follow re how they'd played and why they had come under pressure.

I missed that mala might have not meant being town with jv as both being town but rather as being town with jv present.
Something I saw when checking it after the last mala post before my unvote.

Fair enough, I'm just not seeing why this one detail would have made Mala go from "obvious" mafia so early on in the game to not being worthy of a vote?

[MalcolmTucker]

Only explanation I can think of is Mala doesn't think Koopa's play in general is scummy but that the vote itself is.

But yeah major discrepancy, good spot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only explanation I can think of is Mala doesn't think Koopa's play in general is scummy but that the vote itself is.

But yeah major discrepancy, good spot.

Why are you answering for mala instead of waiting for the reply?

I'm putting out a possible explanation as to why they could say that, they are of course welcome to clarify whether that is correct.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn’t like the trajectory.

Letting me breathe & then asking me to post a list on page 4 which I’m not comfortable with and then oppurnity jumping onto my wagon using pressure vote

Which is cool, but obv makes the commenting letting me breathe go to trash

Again just hated the trajectory on premises

My issue with posts like these is that they just read as basic deflection. You've been asked, quite reasonably, to explain a discrepancy re your reads on Koopa. That is a perfectly legitimate question. My only issue with a mafia read here is this feels incredibly anti-town and unadvisable in an early game for scum. But people are perfectly entitled to suspect you and sometimes being the player under pressure is just a natural aspect of the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Only explanation I can think of is Mala doesn't think Koopa's play in general is scummy but that the vote itself is.

But yeah major discrepancy, good spot.

Why are you answering for mala instead of waiting for the reply?

I'm putting out a possible explanation as to why they could say that, they are of course welcome to clarify whether that is correct.

That's generally anti-town because it could give scum an excuse they didn't think of...

I mean, it seems pretty obvious no? Players can have mixed thoughts early on in a game, wherein they think someone's tone is townie but a specific action pings them as possible mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Italiano, you should know that doesn't make it wolf indicative.
Perhaps consider this motivation, which is the truth:
I want to advance the game to the fun part asap(solving)
The most effective way to get there is to take stances and note reactions to said stances.
I have not even once stated any of my reads were set in stone - in fact mala has been fairly volatile here in view.
Tl;dr forcing reads advances the gamestate and you should consider people have diffrent opinions on how to play Mafia.

I ask kindly that you leave that point alone and evaluate me based on the content of my posts rather than how you think villagers should play the game.

I think this is good to a point because ultimately someone wants to spark some action on D1 and it's beneficial for the town to do so, but I think it has its limits in how much we can find - and more importantly if you push too hard early on it can let bullshitters in a mafia team essentially spout nonsense to look like they're actually taking stances, with the easy out later in the game that it was basically an early read and they can't be held to account for it because lots of people were making bad reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

My main reason why I disagree with Koopa in placing pressure on me in order to give reads is I know if I try to do a readlist it's forced upon me in order to "produce content/reads". It's very unnatural for me to post a read list this early esp on page 4 when we don't have a lot of solid content. Now if I wasn't town or if he was doing this to another player I'd maybe go for a scumbuddy coaching another scumbuddy, but he's doing it to my slot.

I'm not really deflecting. I'm trying to move the game forward, but everyone keep harping on the current subject is just giving either one of two oppurnities for scum to either "lurk" or jump in order to look like they are being productive.

Also I don't think roden is scum for what's happening right now. I think him and I are at a T v T fight.

Ahh dang it Mala. I’ve done this as scum/wolf. Townread your attacker to try and soften the attack since people live to be townread. Ugh. Tell me I’m wrong.

Anyway I gotta go. I know I missed some things, but I’ll be back later. Ciao.

Granted it's early game and I'm not going to judge anyone not taking completely firm reads at this point too harshly, but do find it interesting Mala feels reluctant to particularly take on anyone at the moment. A clear reluctance which like you say could be wary mafia concerned any strong reads they make of townies will come across as fake and/or manufactured if they can't push said read properly and with good evidence.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't particularly agree with players making big detailed lists of who they think is town/mafia early on like Koopa - it often feels a bit forced in a way that feels unnatural, ultimately none of our reads are going to be that bulletproof at this point in the game. But by the same token I can see the value in sometimes just throwing something out there to see if it sticks early on to force some interactions, so I'm not particularly reading Koopa as overly mafia right now.

Agreed that Mala's interactions feel very caged so far and the "lighten up, it's day one" type stuff feels like a major deflection which wants to make others players feel wary about going in too heavily without addressing the substance of any accusatory posts. But I also get how that frustration could be genuine, so a slot to keep an eye on for now.

My main reason why I disagree with Koopa in placing pressure on me in order to give reads is I know if I try to do a readlist it's forced upon me in order to "produce content/reads". It's very unnatural for me to post a read list this early esp on page 4 when we don't have a lot of solid content. Now if I wasn't town or if he was doing this to another player I'd maybe go for a scumbuddy coaching another scumbuddy, but he's doing it to my slot.

I'm not really deflecting. I'm trying to move the game forward, but everyone keep harping on the current subject is just giving either one of two oppurnities for scum to either "lurk" or jump in order to look like they are being productive.

Also I don't think roden is scum for what's happening right now. I think him and I are at a T v T fight.

Ahh dang it Mala. I’ve done this as scum/wolf. Townread your attacker to try and soften the attack since people live to be townread. Ugh. Tell me I’m wrong.

Anyway I gotta go. I know I missed some things, but I’ll be back later. Ciao.

Granted it's early game and I'm not going to judge anyone not taking completely firm reads at this point too harshly

Too harshly? Why harshly at all?

I'm unsure what point you're trying to make here? I'm generally agreeing with the fact Mala has made a lot of deflections and somewhat confrontational posts but doesn't seem to have that many thoughts on who is mafia. But I'm additionally pointing out that doesn't automatically make them scum for me because it's reasonable for someone to struggle for concrete reads early on instead of claiming to basically have the game solved 50 posts in.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not hating Koopa mafia reads at the moment - for a while felt their play had a townie vibe to it but does feel like they picked up Flavor's read on Italiano and decided to run on it very quickly. I largely TR Flavor so far but despite their own read on Koopa not convinced this is two townies who were agreeing with each other here.

Koopa is posting a lot but as was mentioned feels very quick to change opinion...case of someone who seems to both have ultra strong reads early on but who'll change those reads on a whim.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not really understanding HEM's early progression on Koopa in going from a mafia read to a TR. Feels a bit manufactured, if HEM is mafia they perhaps felt a push wasn't going to be sustainable for whatever reason and backed away from it. I don't think Koopa's style has particularly change from immediate early game to now in a way that would substantially alter your read of them at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not really understanding HEM's early progression on Koopa in going from a mafia read to a TR. Feels a bit manufactured, if HEM is mafia they perhaps felt a push wasn't going to be sustainable for whatever reason and backed away from it. I don't think Koopa's style has particularly change from immediate early game to now in a way that would substantially alter your read of them at all.

ask me anything

Basically that then - what's your main reason for progression on Koopa from mafia to town? Looking through your ISO and I don't really get it - there's a couple of posts where you say you don't think they're playing how scum acts, but I don't think their play has particularly changed at all from the early game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm interested in how others perceive Flavor's play here - I'm inclined to think town because I think they're genuinely trying to solve and put necessary pressure on other players, but by the same token they seem skilled enough to approach the game this way as mafia and potentially manage to get away with it. I do find it interesting that they've basically been able to alter the direction of the game with pretty minimal pushback at all beyond those they've suspected.

[MalcolmTucker]

Basically that then - what's your main reason for progression on Koopa from mafia to town? Looking through your ISO and I don't really get it - there's a couple of posts where you say you don't think they're playing how scum acts, but I don't think their play has particularly changed at all from the early game.

im banking on the idea that koopa is not from this site, and has a different playstyle. his actions have been pro-town so far, in the way that he has explained it, and i can see it.

the "this is more of a do something vote" is something that i dont think would likely come from scum

I'm aware we're getting pretty into 4D chess territory here, but presuming Koopa is quite good, is that not an entirely valid strategy as mafia? Plenty of players will make fluff votes early on to appear busy, and a confident player can dismiss that as a random action instead of a more deliberate approach to the game I think.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m ready to 1v1 someone who was on a Mala wagon.

Been feeling some scum energy getting pushed into that direction.

Where shall i pounce

Why don't you just do it instead of posturing about it? I've been waiting for you to actually do something like this for a bit now.

Another thing up against this, while I've been pushing the appearance of not doing anything/lurky, if you check my ISO, even though the tone is probably there, I feel like you can see multiple posts of vaguely where my head is at.

I tend to find it better for me not to immediately come in the beginning of the game because I'm someone who can essentially take over by talking a lot, so early games I try to stay in the background until it's time for me to pounce.

You can poke at the kitty, but I got hops and claws.

I also dont mind pulling attention onto me if I need to. I like interacting with people directly.

This does interest me a little - Flavor initially says they don't want to take over the game by talking too much, but since then I'd argue they pretty much have taken over the game. That's not a bad thing if they're in the right because they've helped move things forward and put interesting ideas out there, but it does feel like a very deliberate and quick switch-up in approach. Is it town just latching onto ideas they've developed or mafia perhaps sensing a chance to take control?

[MalcolmTucker]

sure. you can believe that. or you can let it go, townread it for now, go find other scum, and reevaluate later.

Feels like an unnecessarily confrontational post. Why not just directly address what I'm saying instead of passing it off? Your stance on a player changed very quickly and I'm interested to know why.

[MalcolmTucker]

You obviously have made a brief explanation but I don't think it particularly covers the discrepancy all that well.

[MalcolmTucker]

I could be in the wrong but if you're mafia, almost getting the sense you felt like Koppa was playing very town (so this would be genuine for you to say as mafia) to the point where you couldn't keep any pressure there. The progression feels more like a player who absolutely knows Koopa is town instead of just being someone who TR's them a bit as a fellow townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

I actually quite like your link between Flavor initially saying Italiano had done nothing but also then taking the most decisive action (or something to that effect) in the game. Did feel like a contradiction and was making me doubt my Flavor TR.

[MalcolmTucker]

sure. you can believe that. or you can let it go, townread it for now, go find other scum, and reevaluate later.

Feels like an unnecessarily confrontational post. Why not just directly address what I'm saying instead of passing it off? Your stance on a player changed very quickly and I'm interested to know why.

why does that feel confrontational to you?

Why reply at all if only to say "go find other scum"? It's a deflection from the point being made, if you wanted to move on you were free not to reply and just do so. Felt more like you really, really wanted us to move past the thing with Koopa in a way that could come from townie frustration but is potentially more likely to be uncomfortable mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I could be in the wrong but if you're mafia, almost getting the sense you felt like Koppa was playing very town (so this would be genuine for you to say as mafia) to the point where you couldn't keep any pressure there. The progression feels more like a player who absolutely knows Koopa is town instead of just being someone who TR's them a bit as a fellow townie.

no he was just playing very town and i want people to notice that

Your switch-up in read may be genuine here (and I am happy to leave it after this because we likely won't go further or say anything new for now), but what pings me is I don't think that playstyle, whether town or otherwise, has particularly change or evolved in any way from early game when you suspected them.

[MalcolmTucker]

I find it kinda interesting that Koopa is voting for Salad on the basis that a low activity player is likely to be mafia, but they strongly TR'd Facebones earlier in the game after they'd only made about three posts.

I thought Facebone's posts were alright for what it's worth and they pointed out a notable contradiction in Mala's play, but if Mala is town then there's absolutely no reason Facebones can't be mafia...there's nowhere near enough info to be making such a concrete read, and it's odd that they'd be so keen on TR'ing them when they think a low activity player could be mafia.

I do also simultaneously feel like it's a potentially unusual/odd play from mafia though...parking a vote on a player who's done nothing so far is obviously bound to get people talking.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have a pretty wild theory but I feel there is a lost wolf/traitor based on the fact I cannot feasibly find pairing higher than 2. I am going to read the game with the assumption there is one later on and see if I can't find someone trying to signal - but I think it's a decent possibility here.

I also think I feel comfortable parking here now: VOTE: Salad

The most recent conversation does not particularly help me much and instead just made me roll my eyes at Malcom attributing playstyle to alignment.

Perhaps its ego but that statement did make them fall in my reads for me. A few others have shifted as well but I am withdrawing from the overall conversation to let things play out for now as I have contributed plenty at this point.

That's not really what I was doing though. Nothing wrong with your playstyle itself and I think there can be some value in throwing lots of things out there early on, it's more the fact your play feels inconsistent to me - on the one hand you seem to have really decisive reads at times, but on the other hand your vote is currently on a player who's done nothing either way so far and your reads seem to change quite easily considering how decisive they initially appear.

I'm not even necessarily sure how I read you yet for what it's worth, I don't think mafia puts the vote on Salad there, but just feel like there are inconsistencies in your play.

[MalcolmTucker]

Facebonez has towntold more than Scorpious, who has spent the majority of his posts complaining.

They have a total of three posts so far, one of which was an introduction, I don't see how you can be anywhere near convinced of their alignment either way. I like their tone so far but it's not as if all mafia make it obvious where they stand, good scum will deliberately want townies to like them tonally because it makes them less likely to get voted out.

[MalcolmTucker]

As I say I like Facebones' post about spotting a contradiction in Mala's play, but if Mala is town then that could just be good mafia play to try and put some extra heat onto Mala. If Koopa was voting for Mala right now I'd potentially buy their belief that Facebones is a strong TR but since they're not I struggle to see how they can be incredibly confident in Facebones being town so early on, especially when they are voting on the basis of low activity at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, all caught up.

I fundamentally really think Flavor is town here although I'm aware I could of course be getting manipulated. Need to ask - would the current state of the game be beneficial to FL if they were mafia, given how they've approached it? And I think the answer is no. The D1 conflicts/arguments here should give us plenty of info going forward and it's beneficial to mafia to fundamentally keep as much info as they can hidden from town.

I also think we'd have seen more people directly batting for FL when they were under suspicion and starting to become the main wagon. The way it's died down now indicates to me someone in mafia (whether HEM or Roden) didn't have their heart in it and didn't think it was going to go anywhere in the end.

I didn't particularly like Roden's reaction to FL and I thought their argument Flavor wasn't really being clear with their reads felt very off given the state of the game so far. But I'm not sure mafia Roden has any way to react the way they did - the push was long past and it felt like essentially picking a fight which suddenly put them in contention again as possible mafia. If you're mafia, best just to ignore and move on from that I think.

Koopa is very much towning it up now, not necessarily agreed with everything they've said at times but their logic/approach seems a lot more solid now as the game goes on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Incredibly - I went through some meta on Scorpious.. and I am shocked to find that their WOLFPLAY has more depth than their villager play somehow.
When comparing:
This wolf game from a game called Internal Affairs:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26244
and this Villager game from a game called Polish Rap:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=26244

Also interesting tidbit I found in the wolf chat:
Subject: Infernal Affairs Mafia PT

Oh, yeah. You should know that.

I’ll be scum read by page 4. I just come off as scum all the time. I usually get out of it but. There will be a push on me. I’m just not that good at this, but I like the game so much.

I think FL noted that we both played a game with Scorpious a while back where they approached the game in a similar way to this as town. I'm aware Scorpious seems to roll scum a lot and I sometimes get the impression they're maybe more comfortable in that slot early game than as town - I can conceivably see D1 Scorpious just not having that many decisive thoughts or opinions at the moment and not being particularly active or concerned about the main arguments and interactions as a result.

[MalcolmTucker]

Provided they're not teammates working together here, FL's defence of Scorpious also felt genuine and townie to me - Koopa was clearly become keen on Scorpious for a while and when FL was under some pressure I think an alternative Scorpious wagon could have potentially been quite workable to take the heat away from them a bit. Obviously that doesn't clarify Scorpious' alignment but struck me as helpful from FL - again, mafia want to keep info hidden and that was some useful clarity that's given Koopa a lot more context on Scorpious in general I'd argue.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not sure how keen I necessarily am on the sudden return of the Mala wagon, feel like possible mafia in there trying to direct some attention back to an early game suspect since the FL wagon wasn't working. HEM isn't looking particularly good to me in particular to be honest.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't particularly like Roden's reaction to FL and I thought their argument Flavor wasn't really being clear with their reads felt very off given the state of the game so far. But I'm not sure mafia Roden has any way to react the way they did - the push was long past and it felt like essentially picking a fight which suddenly put them in contention again as possible mafia. If you're mafia, best just to ignore and move on from that I think.

I'm actually starting to come back around to ScumRoden. I do think they had reason to do so because it was actively helping fuel the Flavor Leaf wagon, and it was attempting to bring me down into the overall gamestate feel as scum to people.

Human I can see in a very similar vain as it was when I pushed you last game, so I see a town world with them.

And NK15 was also pushing me because of the same thing Roden was, so it feels kind of like Roden piggybacked onto NK15's push to keep the momentum going.

VOTE: Roden

Is that a good enough reason for you, Roden?

I can see that, will take a fuller ISO look in due time to see where I stand on it. Presuming one or two mafia were on your wagon if you're town, do you reckon it's likely one of them has been TR'ing you/held back as a misdirect or to distance themselves from it? I'd expect so.

[MalcolmTucker]

Human's transition on FL feels very weak and very much like a careful climbdown given where they were at before.

VOTE: Humaneatingmonkeys

[MalcolmTucker]

@Koopa - I think the sheer fact that Jackson voted you here is townie in itself.

Like you are going back and forth a lot, something I also do, and besides the PR claim empowerment to 1v1 which felt more ego emotion based anyway, you've had a generally townie mindset, and scum probably wouldnt try to push you the way that JV did. They might try to push you, but not by just voting like that, if that makes sense.

Agreed, want to hear more from Jackson but I don't think that action is scummy either.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't particularly like Roden's reaction to FL and I thought their argument Flavor wasn't really being clear with their reads felt very off given the state of the game so far. But I'm not sure mafia Roden has any way to react the way they did - the push was long past and it felt like essentially picking a fight which suddenly put them in contention again as possible mafia. If you're mafia, best just to ignore and move on from that I think.

I'm actually starting to come back around to ScumRoden. I do think they had reason to do so because it was actively helping fuel the Flavor Leaf wagon, and it was attempting to bring me down into the overall gamestate feel as scum to people.

Human I can see in a very similar vain as it was when I pushed you last game, so I see a town world with them.

And NK15 was also pushing me because of the same thing Roden was, so it feels kind of like Roden piggybacked onto NK15's push to keep the momentum going.

VOTE: Roden

Is that a good enough reason for you, Roden?

I can see that, will take a fuller ISO look in due time to see where I stand on it. Presuming one or two mafia were on your wagon if you're town, do you reckon it's likely one of them has been TR'ing you/held back as a misdirect or to distance themselves from it? I'd expect so.

Yep. I stated when I did my reads list that there was a scum likely in my town reads.

I will say I'm liking so much of what youve been saying the past page, I'm getting paranoid im getting pocketed.

Trust me, the feeling is mutual...

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, all caught up.

I fundamentally really think Flavor is town here although I'm aware I could of course be getting manipulated. Need to ask - would the current state of the game be beneficial to FL if they were mafia, given how they've approached it? And I think the answer is no. The D1 conflicts/arguments here should give us plenty of info going forward and it's beneficial to mafia to fundamentally keep as much info as they can hidden from town.

I also think we'd have seen more people directly batting for FL when they were under suspicion and starting to become the main wagon. The way it's died down now indicates to me someone in mafia (whether HEM or Roden) didn't have their heart in it and didn't think it was going to go anywhere in the end.

I didn't particularly like Roden's reaction to FL and I thought their argument Flavor wasn't really being clear with their reads felt very off given the state of the game so far. But I'm not sure mafia Roden has any way to react the way they did - the push was long past and it felt like essentially picking a fight which suddenly put them in contention again as possible mafia. If you're mafia, best just to ignore and move on from that I think.

Koopa is very much towning it up now, not necessarily agreed with everything they've said at times but their logic/approach seems a lot more solid now as the game goes on.

I mean there's more info as the game goes on so naturally thats the trajectory

I know, but sometimes D1 can be a slog where there's a lot of incorrect misinfo going around and where mafia coast by if all the focus is on one player. So far I think we have a lot more useful info on what likely possible combos are/combos we can rule out very much directly through FL's play. I don't think FL's play is particularly beneficial for mafia if they're scum so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Human's transition on FL feels very weak and very much like a careful climbdown given where they were at before.

VOTE: Humaneatingmonkeys

damn, see I like this too, because I felt like Human might have just been playing a way to get me to town read him.

It feels like too much of a mindmeld to be coming from scum. Feels more like town coming from the same spot.

To expand - while I'm of course wary as a townie you could be stringing me along here, I also find the fact Human was continually accusing you of constantly pocketing and manipulating others to not necessarily be a good look; such posts felt like they were specifically designed to make sure anyone who agrees with you second guess themselves and potentially feel silly/not particularly clever for possibly being manipulated.

But if Human is town, then they still don't ultimately know that you're mafia either despite their strong stance on it - I don't think it's particularly helpful to just assert that anyone who doesn't share their view of the game is being stupid, if that makes sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think this is the real reason you find me wolfy:
I am loud.
I have opinions.
I talk a lot.
I am not afraid to change.
Did I mention loud?

You see me post a lot, and with an aggressive tone and you are scared.

That's the reason.

I doubt you will admit that, or rather, have the level of insight able to figure that out - but your level of reading is extremely ineffective towards my playstyle as it fails to take into account context.
What is shocking is you are not at the same time pushing FL here too.

Is everyone aware of your role claim? I don't really see why anyone is pushing you at the moment given that, don't think it's likely you're lying.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not sure mafia particularly pushes Koopa right now, it's unlikely go anywhere and isn't particularly in their interests. But I guess that could conversely be a reason for scum to give it a go...will be intrigued to see whether Scorpious/Jackson keep on it or back down.

[MalcolmTucker]

Both Roden/Human being on the Mala bandwagon is interesting to me given both were similarly aligned on FL for a while. Given Roden went on it right after HEM it points to town for me...I think HEM/Roden would be too self-conscious to go on the same wagon together when their previous one has faded away and where possible links to them being teammates could be made.

Conversely if HEM is not mafia could be a very opportunistic move from Roden to get a viable wagon going.

[MalcolmTucker]

If FL is town and we're correct that a mafia team member defended them to distance themselves from a possible teammate like HEM, then I'm not completely hating the possibility of it being Kitty considering they're also on the Mala wagon.

In post 369 they said they were unsure on HEM, but they later TR'd FL and joined HEM's Mala bandwagon. Post 801 could easily be a way to create a bit of distance as well in a way that seems reasonable without being particularly accusatory at all. Especially considering it was regarding a much earlier post in the game, I'm strugglingv to find a reason to go back to that other than if they genuinely just really disliked the tone of HEM's post.

I will point out that their suspicion on Mala has been quite consistent though, so it doesn't necessarily feel like an opportunistic vote to the same extent as it otherwise could have.

Intrigued to hear where Kitty is on HEM at the moment though because their views on them still feel somewhat obscured.

[MalcolmTucker]

My apologies to everyone else for the heated posts on this page - I am intensely frustrated when a player pushes bad mafia theory to push me as wolf when it is simply stuff part of my playstyle, and thus i largely have 0 argument against it.
I think Scorpious is worth an investigative check here if anything just to make sure they are not a wolf trying to hide within this ridiculous theory.

I think Scorpious' push here is pretty lazy but I'm not particularly reading them as mafia for it currently to be honest. Don't see why mafia would push you.

[MalcolmTucker]

I need to take a proper look at Italiano, been unsure what to make of them so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

im not seeing what you're seeing when you mean both kitty's posts are fairly pure tonally that i can dismiss them as town, and i think scum would be more trigger happy to give that assessment.
so now i'm asking you how you reached that judgment.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

lmao it was a riff on you hating lists but i was pleasantly surprised you responded

why do you think Mala is town? what about Kitty's play makes you think they're playing well?

If we're exploring possibility of Kitty playing the FL good cop to HEM's bad cop, these are the only two mentions I can find of Kitty in HEM's ISO with no particularly direct interactions between them.

What do people think of this at all? HEM both calls out what I thought was Koopa's fairly weak TR of Kitty early on, and later questions the idea that they're playing well. So they're not exactly in full agreement on things...but this feels soft enough for me that it doesn't rule out the possibility of them both being teammates, especially when HEM has never really pushed or probed Kitty beyond this despite not necessarily strongly TR'ing them. Especially if it was possibly an organised strategy when HEM was all-in for FL's being eliminated.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm quite liking a lot of Italiano's play so far from a skim through their ISO, they could of course be mafia playing well and intrigued to see how things develop as the game goes on but not getting a mafia vibe.

Their push on Koopa at the time seemed fairly reasonable to me and the frustration over the push on Salad appeared to be quite genuine.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think any push on me has been reasonable at all.

Aware we've moved past it now but I strongly disagreed with you parking your vote on Salad for a while - I wasn't necessarily sure it was what mafia would do, but I can see why Italiano would read you as being fencesitting mafia for trying to put pressure on someone who wasn't around and wasn't at all active - we weren't going to get much from it. Not an issue now given we've moved on, but I don't particularly read Italiano as mafia for their previous suspicion of you, for what it's worth.

[MalcolmTucker]

NK - can you point to where FL said "lets move on" at all because I'm struggling to find that from the time. FL should of course give a response to this presuming they never did at the time further down the line.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

[MalcolmTucker]

okay, i'm slipping into old habits.

I would like to announce that I'll be imposing post limits for me. I wanna train a lurky/wall-ey posting style. Wish me luck.

This is townie but idk why you're imposing anything on yourself

Spiritual vote on Malakittens

Malashell

I don't like being shipped with random ppl i don't know.

sorrynotsorry.

i also think malakittens is addressing JV as if they already know JV is town and is trying to get their trust. that's a very weak read tho, and it seems like there's background there.

I have played with JV twice so far; both times I have been scum. So there's the potential that he might vote me right off the bat which is fair considering that I been scum twice so far now against him.

This feels very self conscious.

VOTE: Malakittens

i dont think you're being self-conscious exactly

i think you're trying to get us to townread you earlier by declaring to lim you right there and then — and assuming Roden is with good intentions trying to push you
it tracks with the idea that you wanted JV to townread you — and assuming that the slot is town

Ok HEM basically said what I meant but more concisely.

Roden did seem to agree with HEM a lot very early on and was more than happy to give a TR for something I don't think was particularly alignment indicative.

For Roden directly - given HEM initially suggested they'd employ a more lurky posting style, and given you felt like this was town, do you find it suspicious at all that they've not ended up following through on that?

I don't think it's particularly indicative for either HEM or Flavor who initially wanted to sit back a bit before very much taking over as the main town voice, but it was clearly of some importance to you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yet again, just because you dont like the reason, doesnt mean it's not a reason.

Feels like scum who doesnt think they should be getting wagon'd.

Italiano thinks youre scummy, and Koopa had you 2nd to the lowest, yet you're still just trying to discredit me.

Leaf I'm not going to engage with you if you keep intentionally trying to goad me.

Are you really being goaded in a way that's particularly bad here? This feels like a pretty standard interaction.

[MalcolmTucker]

Let's wagon Kitty.

I could get onboard a Kitty wagon given my previous suspicion of them, want to hear more from them though to see if my read changes at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm interested in how others perceive Flavor's play here - I'm inclined to think town because I think they're genuinely trying to solve and put necessary pressure on other players, but by the same token they seem skilled enough to approach the game this way as mafia and potentially manage to get away with it. I do find it interesting that they've basically been able to alter the direction of the game with pretty minimal pushback at all beyond those they've suspected.

Going back to this post - I'm finding it really interesting how quickly things changed after this. As I stated then, it felt notable that Flavor had very much been able to assert their influence on the town with relatively minimal pushback. But not long after that this very much changed and the wagon started to form...is it possible scum were coordinating their approach/attack here and didn't want to go in too heavily right away?

[MalcolmTucker]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

This is actually my biggest issue with Leaf and why I think he's scum. The narrative got switched around to me being mad I got scum read and that I scum read him for changing his read. But that was never the case, and it's pretty clear that was never the case if you just look at my original post that was directed at him in context.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I'm really not sure that Flavor's switch-up on their read of you was particularly out of the norm - as I say it happens in every game and it's happened with other players. I'm still hesitant to SR you fully though because if you're mafia, like I said before, I'm not sure you'd have pushed back at Flavor on this considering it's put you under more pressure than you otherwise would have been now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do feel like it's quite inconsistent that Roden has gone in on FL for changing their read on them but not other players who have done similar at other points in the game. Koopa did this once or twice before their role claim. NK had Mala down as "obvious" scum early on but then completely backpedalled on the basis of one missed post that I personally don't think changed a lot. Why solely the focus on the player who suspected them?

This is actually my biggest issue with Leaf and why I think he's scum. The narrative got switched around to me being mad I got scum read and that I scum read him for changing his read. But that was never the case, and it's pretty clear that was never the case if you just look at my original post that was directed at him in context.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise but I'm really not sure that Flavor's switch-up on their read of you was particularly out of the norm - as I say it happens in every game and it's happened with other players. I'm still hesitant to SR you fully though because if you're mafia, like I said before, I'm not sure you'd have pushed back at Flavor on this considering it's put you under more pressure than you otherwise would have been now.

You're...seriously just not listening...

I am listening, I just don't think the mafia reads on Flavor are particularly strong, especially when HEM is my strongest mafia read.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

Nobody in this game has caught me as scum on site before. JacksonVirgo 'might' have, and they have seen me as scum and scum read me correctly before, but idk if they 'caught' me. I mightve won all those games.

Malakittens I met in person in 2014 at a meetup, so she might've caught me as scum.

I haven't played much with many of the others in this game. Scorpious a few here and there, and then NK15 I've played in some of his modded games.

But yeah.

U have definitely changed play styles since my haitus, but I do remember being able to read you transparently

Tbt when we met tho

I believe I was like 19 then, so just overall changed most likely. 8 years ago, wow.

I could see you still being able to read me well. I think even back then you were still more likely to read me more transparently than others.

In regards to this I have caught FL scum before but tend to lean towards scumreading him by default because he’s good. The fact Boon town pings me means he’s probably town so I am interested in the arguments to see if it’s a scum push or misguided Townie.

My general view on this as a fellow FL town-reader is that there's almost certainly a mix - the wagon on FL felt too sudden and surprising for me when reading through for it not to be partially orchestrated by mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think the fact NK has continued to try and keep pressure on FL makes them slightly more likely to be mafia for me. I'd pointed out that HEM had backed off in a way that felt inorganic and so if there was a mafia push on FL then I doubt everyone would back off simultaneously.

NK15 also very much did a complete sudden swerve on their early Mala read based on one post they'd missed for context, and I wonder if as mafia they'd perhaps be too self-conscious to back down entirely from another read.

Looking through NK's ISO as well, I feel like most of their posts are very individual/suspect-based if that makes sense insofar as they have largely honed in on a few select players at certain points in the game without necessarily specifically TR's too many others. It makes me wary because I think when someone's town you want them to be interacting with everyone or with most players in the game without reservation. Mafia are obviously going to be more deliberate and careful about how they play alongside each other.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden - have you caught wolf FL before?

Nobody in this game has caught me as scum on site before. JacksonVirgo 'might' have, and they have seen me as scum and scum read me correctly before, but idk if they 'caught' me. I mightve won all those games.

Malakittens I met in person in 2014 at a meetup, so she might've caught me as scum.

I haven't played much with many of the others in this game. Scorpious a few here and there, and then NK15 I've played in some of his modded games.

But yeah.

U have definitely changed play styles since my haitus, but I do remember being able to read you transparently

Tbt when we met tho

I believe I was like 19 then, so just overall changed most likely. 8 years ago, wow.

I could see you still being able to read me well. I think even back then you were still more likely to read me more transparently than others.

In regards to this I have caught FL scum before but tend to lean towards scumreading him by default because he’s good. The fact Boon town pings me means he’s probably town so I am interested in the arguments to see if it’s a scum push or misguided Townie.

My general view on this as a fellow FL town-reader is that there's almost certainly a mix - the wagon on FL felt too sudden and surprising for me when reading through for it not to be partially orchestrated by mafia.

Okay. So then run with that:

Assume it is orchestrated by mafia. Who and why?

Show me deep though. There’s a post on my phone that makes me think you might be truthful scum but it’s too dangerous to call out here.

Posts 849 and 868 are demonstrative of why I think HEM comes out of all of this looking worst so far, and why I'm not too keen on Roden at the moment despite believing their read of FL is fundamentally very inaccurate and off.

Intrigued by which post you're referring to but maybe best to leave it if it's of major concern in that regard.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am willing to go back to Human, just like sitting on Roden for now, and if Italiano is town, then I think if Roden was also town, there would be merit in scum fueling that wagon more.

Koopa had Roden listed as their 2nd lowest, but went on Italiano, so there is also potential threat for Roden to be faded, but there's a wagon on Malakittens.

What do you think of Human Italiano Malcolm with a side of forced Koopa town?

No way I'd be voting for HEM or consistently putting pressure on them if we were teammates, given there's plenty of other players who were on that FL wagon I could opt for instead if I wanted to appear more townie by siding with FL.

[MalcolmTucker]

koopashell [2]: Scorpious [457], JacksonVirgo [820]

if there's an all town wagon on town, it's this one.

Agreed, not been keen on Scorpious continually winding up Koopa but I don't think they have much interest in D1 at the moment and they just really don't seem to like how Koopa is approaching the game. Not the best way to decide on a vote but it is what it is for now.

And on both - Koopa clearly not getting eliminated this turn given their role claim, so not a sensible place for mafia to be ditching votes for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

One of Human, NK, or Roden.

At one point, Koopa risked it all to push me, but diffused the situation, so I think that was an emotional town outbreak rather than a scum one.

You’re confident they pulled back based on calming down and not strategy?

Do you really think Koopa is lying re their role claim?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think we'll just go this way:
I am a PR who has crumbed their role throughout this game. I will likely resolve.

I want this to be resolved: VOTE: Flavor Leaf
I have gotten to the point where there is way too much of a disparity between our perspectives and the nail on the coffin was trying to push a PoE that includes 2 people who are actually towny.
If FL did not push for my elimination here - I would believe they werent playing a wolf game where they wanted to anti spew in a way that involves simply eliminating the people in their fake PoE.

If you think that wordplay will save you here - I wish to see you try. My perspective is town and grossly opposes yours.

If you wish to live, explain your progession on my slot *in detail* because it is my view that you have tried to manipulate me and use me as a tool for you.

Good luck.

This is it here.

I asked because I was genuinely unsure if you'd missed this entirely. Which makes me think you're probably town if you have.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've certainly not spotted any crumbing but maybe just very subtle.

[MalcolmTucker]

Frankly It's probably anti town for me to engage you here but I'm drunk and I feel like gloating over you having been a twat towards me since I don't like when players show undue confide ce in pushes with piss poor reasoning that they refuse to realize doesnt work.
Hopefully someday you learn your list of tells is bunk and you need to actually go further in depth to.find wolves reliably. I doubt it will be this game - you will probably blame me for being anti - town or whatever lame excuse, but someday I hope you do wake up.

Come on, I felt like Scorpious was snarky at times but this stuff happens in games, don't think anyone needs to get personal. I don't really feel this back and forth has gone anywhere useful and the two of you probably just need to cool off a bit and focus on other players.

[MalcolmTucker]

Frankly It's probably anti town for me to engage you here but I'm drunk and I feel like gloating over you having been a twat towards me since I don't like when players show undue confide ce in pushes with piss poor reasoning that they refuse to realize doesnt work.
Hopefully someday you learn your list of tells is bunk and you need to actually go further in depth to.find wolves reliably. I doubt it will be this game - you will probably blame me for being anti - town or whatever lame excuse, but someday I hope you do wake up.

Come on, I felt like Scorpious was snarky at times but this stuff happens in games, don't think anyone needs to get personal. I don't really feel this back and forth has gone anywhere useful and the two of you probably just need to cool off a bit and focus on other players.

Eh the list comments have really got to me and it is an annoyance to have to deal with people thinking that a normal townie action = wolfy behavior.

I get that but people are still entitled to suspect you/disbelieve you if you want. Best way to deal with that is ignore if you think it's counterproductive/trolly, or explain why you believe them to be wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

*if they want sorry

[MalcolmTucker]

I've certainly not spotted any crumbing but maybe just very subtle.

To be fair though. I would not expect a townie to point it out..

Not saying either way on you just saying what I did.

This is why I suspect Malcolm. He highlighted a crumb post and called it a role claim.

This doesn’t do any good when scum could have just missed it.

Instead we have a four alarm fire going “look here”.

Can you go more in depth on the Malcolm read?

I kinda feel HEM Malcolm and Italiano are all scum but they don’t all fit together.

Just catching up but I didn't do this in the way you're suggesting here Math - Koopa themselves posted that they had a role and that they had been crumbing. There is no chance whatsoever the entire mafia team would have missed it so mentioning it at all isn't problematic. The reason I'd brought it up was because Scorpious was continuing to suspect/vote for Koopa in a way that was unnatural and it gave me a sense that they'd missed the role reveal. It was important to highlight this to let us move on from what was a particularly pointless conflict.

[MalcolmTucker]

What are people’s reads on Mathblade?

Didn't particularly like their admission that they'd be happy to eliminate Scorpious due to playstyle and not particularly thinking that they are mafia at all. Considering they have other suspects, felt like a way for them to potentially hedge a wagon on a townie without seeming too suspect for doing so. Also felt like Math's read on me was quite dishonest and completely distorted the truth, but aware they can sometimes quickly jump to conclusions that aren't necessarily correct while town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Human's transition on FL feels very weak and very much like a careful climbdown given where they were at before.

VOTE: Humaneatingmonkeys

you're right. i am hesitant. i still scumread FL fwiw, i'm just ignoring it for now until i get the chance to really dive into the game. koopa was right about the gamestate ultimately and i have to put aside ego for while.

Your change in playstyle feels very deliberate and measured here in a way that's still leaving me wary. When an FL wagon appeared viable you were gloating about it and saying you couldn't wait to see their ego crash after they were eliminated. Now that's failed and you're a possible elimination you're suddenly a lot more measured and reasonable. Open to changing my mind but not convinced otherwise on you being mafia for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

For what it's worth while Scorpious is unhappy about meta-reading (and I get that) I'd probably find them a lot more suspicious if I was unaware they can play this way as town. So far their main push has been a poor push on a player who's claimed a role. I just think mafia Scorpious would be putting more thought into things here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again on the presumption FL is town, I could see NK being the mafia on the FL wagon that was developing and now throwing HEM under the bus. From what I can see they'd not particularly suspect HEM until very recently but I'll need to go back and do an ISO scan to be sure on that.

[MalcolmTucker]

There's almost definitely at least one scum between {Malakittens, JacksonVirgo, Scorpious}. Italiano seems less scummy after a reevaluation but it's possible. But I'm voting between those three today barring something shaking up the gamestate in an extreme manner.

I honestly think it might end up being both town there, I don't see why mafia sit on the Koopa wagon at all right now given what we know.

Personally I've not felt Mala was mafia for the entire game so far for the most part but I do think their general lack of activity/lack of pushes is increasingly suspicious. Very much sitting back and letting others take charge after the early push on them. I also still maintain the quick attempt to wagon Mala again (3 votes in 13 posts) from you guys was incredibly suspect too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Kitty - what do you think of NK15?

[MalcolmTucker]

@Not Known 15
Malcolm played like this as town in Music Hits too IIRC, his indecisiveness is NAI.

There's almost definitely at least one scum between {Malakittens, JacksonVirgo, Scorpious}. Italiano seems less scummy after a reevaluation but it's possible. But I'm voting between those three today barring something shaking up the gamestate in an extreme manner.

I honestly think it might end up being both town there, I don't see why mafia sit on the Koopa wagon at all right now given what we know.

Personally I've not felt Mala was mafia for the entire game so far for the most part but I do think their general lack of activity/lack of pushes is increasingly suspicious. Very much sitting back and letting others take charge after the early push on them. I also still maintain the quick attempt to wagon Mala again (3 votes in 13 posts) from you guys was incredibly suspect too.

1. Why would

town

sit on Koopa? Not a rhetorical question. Koopa is jumpy with votes annnnd... that's about it. Hardly a reason to wagon an active player when scum is usually quieter.

2. It happened after I pointed out Mala's lurkiness.

Kitty - what do you think of NK15?

Town lean.

Yeah I get it might be frustrating for some people but I tend to generally be quite indecisive - if I have a read on someone I will also generally tend to set out potential alternatives to my own argument in the same post. I get how mafia can approach the game this way too but generally I just like to make sure my full thoughts are out there re any player when I'm posting about them. Ultimately it's D1 and I'm personally aware my reads could be wrong.

I don't think I've been hesitant to make reads anyway - I've stated quite openly I think HEM could be mafia, if not HEM then I think it's probably NK15, and I personally think it could be Kitty as well if there's a team member who stayed off the FL bandwagon, albeit I've been liking Kitty's posts recently a bit more.

Re Scorpious/Jackson - I don't think mafia sit on this wagon because Koopa is really townie at this point and I think more self-aware mafia would probably go elsewhere or to a town slot that actually has a chance of being eliminated at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Now that's failed

also FWIW i think FL would be today's lim if I was actually scum because I'll have partners pushing with me

I also believe FL stopped being a wagon BECAUSE i hopped off, not the other way around

From my readthrough at the time it felt like the wagon had gotten stuck and wasn't going to go through in the long-term. The players who was really all-in on pushing it through for a while appeared to be you, NK15 and Roden.

Koopa increasingly opposed it (you accused him of being pocketed), we had two replacements to come into the game, I don't get the impression Mala or Kitty or Scorpious particularly liked it, and I was fully against it going through. Where were the rest of your votes coming from there? As I say you were clearly very frustrated when Koopa started to back off because it initially appeared like you had a more solid block.

[MalcolmTucker]

i also dont think i changed playstyles, MT. i stopped pushing FL. that was it. that was the change i made.

You weren't just pushing Flavor though, you were gloating about his potential elimination and saying it'd be great to see his ego crumble etc. Now you seem a lot more open to compromise...and yet at the same time you're insisting the fact you backed off is the reason the wagon wouldn't work? If you still think Flavor is mafia, why back off at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

MT, you still didn't answer my question as for why TOWNIES would sit on Koopa. It's a dumb play as scum but a dumber one as town. Maybe they're trying to make a wagon crystallize. Maybe just one is scum and the other is a scummy townie who got sheeped. IDK.

I explained it above in 1164. It's a dumb town play but Scorpious didn't even know Koopa had role claimed. I don't think they've really been paying that much attention beyond their pretty crap push on Koopa.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've come to a realisation mid-day out that I don't think koopa is

more

likely scum than NK15.

VOTE: NK15

Is your reasoning on NK15 based on their push of FL? I do think it's interesting NK15 suddenly voted for HEM despite them both being on the FL push, and despite NK15 not having really suspected HEM at all before that. Potentially feels like an opportunistic way to add pressure onto someone else who was on Flavor.

[MalcolmTucker]

i think NK15 i town so

wanna fight me there

Do you not find it weird that NK15 suddenly voted for you and now suspects you despite barely mentioning you beforehand?

[MalcolmTucker]

I also believe HEM to be a strong scum, so if I am wrong the pressure is sure to reveal stress slips. But that's not my main motivation, just a small sub-one to justify my lack of motivation to make cases.

Do you think both HEM/NK can be scum here?

[MalcolmTucker]

MT, you still didn't answer my question as for why TOWNIES would sit on Koopa. It's a dumb play as scum but a dumber one as town. Maybe they're trying to make a wagon crystallize. Maybe just one is scum and the other is a scummy townie who got sheeped. IDK.

I explained it above in 1164. It's a dumb town play but Scorpious didn't even know Koopa had role claimed. I don't think they've really been paying that much attention beyond their pretty crap push on Koopa.

I don't see the explanation in 1164... am I stupid?

I outlined why I don't think Scorpious/JV would sit there - it's dumb town play yes but neither of them seem too invested in the game and Koopa has no chance of going out when mafia should surely be trying to wagon a less obvious townie.

JV's sudden switch feels potentially opportunistic though despite the fact they now have a similar suspect list to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious is confirmed scum

How so?

[MalcolmTucker]

nk15, why is scum?

i read their progression as natural, i think they're approaching the game from a solvy angle, and i share a lot of reads with them.
although i haven't played with them as scum, so this isn't bulletproof, but i want them to stay through D1.

I reckon there's mafia somewhere on the Flavor wagon that developed (either you or NK15) and I view their progression onto suspecting you as quite forced - you'd barely warranted a mention beforehand yet were suddenly worth a vote out of nowhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I don't think HEM and NK15 are both mafia but increasingly convinced one of them will be. NK15's sudden mafia read on HEM could be a desperate attempt to move the pressure away from them certainly.

[MalcolmTucker]

I also like to point out that a pr claim is not a free pass to get townread. I’m not throwing shade koopa, but I don’t think anybody should townread you based on that claim. They should townread you on your play and how you’ve formulated your reads and such.

This one of my favorite excerpts from this game so far.

town points for this post

It's not a free pass but I'm not sure Koopa makes it up at that point in the game. They weren't really nearing elimination or anything as such albeit they weren't in the clear; they appeared to detect the discussion between them and Flavor was going nowhere and a reveal was the best way to move past that. Such an approach feels quite townie to me. Do you still think Koopa is mafia in light of their claim?

[MalcolmTucker]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

Surely it's natural for players to approach different games differently? I maintain a pretty consistent approach but then I'm a very boring player for the most part. I don't think posting more often/less often should automatically be seen as an indicator of a player's alignment unless it's something pretty stark compared to most previous games they've played.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like mathblade came into scum chat and said lets ramp this up a bit..

So now you reckon we are seeing some theatre from the mafia team?

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like mathblade came into scum chat and said lets ramp this up a bit..

So now you reckon we are seeing some theatre from the mafia team?

reading over it yes..

I can see NK15's vote as definitely being quite suspect potentially. MathBlade feels unlikely to go out at the moment given they've replaced in and there's not a lot of pressure there so far. It's potentially an easy place for under pressure mafia to park a vote, but then I suppose that also depends on whether you think mafia are aiming to drive a town elimination at the moment or just try to avoid suspicion irrespective of who goes. Although I may be letting my own personal biases get in the way here based on who I've suspected so far: I thought your vote on Koopa was really lazy but didn't SR you for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like you can argue mudslinging if you want it does make you look bad as you do look bad to me but anyone can go back and review the game.

You were a lurker and were shot for it.

Here you’re not.

My question is why and instead of an explanation I get a vote.

Surely it's natural for players to approach different games differently? I maintain a pretty consistent approach but then I'm a very boring player for the most part. I don't think posting more often/less often should automatically be seen as an indicator of a player's alignment unless it's something pretty stark compared to most previous games they've played.

I agree with this.

That’s why I asked why.

Maybe NK15 saw something that made them more engaged which they would have said “Yo so and so is so obviously scum and that makes me more interested” or a reason.

It’s asking why to see if it’s scum indicative. A turnaround vote is not an appropriate response.

Fair enough, I don't always like games getting too bogged down in meta and sometimes prefer to just let players play from scratch while basing reads on the individual game itself, but the vote in response was not a particularly good look at all for me.

NK15's vote pattern today - opting for HEM after not previously suspecting them, and voting you now, isn't a great look at all. Question is whether it's an approach scum would employ.

[MalcolmTucker]

wtf.. sorry

No,I think the reason you aren;t voting NK15 is because your playing carefully and don't want it to look like an OMGUS vote.

The response is in there smh

Let me tell you, I am very good at scum. Very clearly put if I am scum I always vote NK15 and ride the cred and create a big argument and play emotions. Poor reaction votes like that are great for chaos and can provide several examples where I do this.

I agree as scum I am manipulative but here I am being straightforward.

But then if you're very good as scum, and if you have an approach to the game you always follow as scum when it comes to voting, and if you're keen on meta, then a clever player could reverse such an approach every so often to throw a spanner in the works...

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like mathblade came into scum chat and said lets ramp this up a bit..

So now you reckon we are seeing some theatre from the mafia team?

reading over it yes..

I can see NK15's vote as definitely being quite suspect potentially. MathBlade feels unlikely to go out at the moment given they've replaced in and there's not a lot of pressure there so far. It's potentially an easy place for under pressure mafia to park a vote, but then I suppose that also depends on whether you think mafia are aiming to drive a town elimination at the moment or just try to avoid suspicion irrespective of who goes. Although I may be letting my own personal biases get in the way here based on who I've suspected so far: I thought your vote on Koopa was really lazy but didn't SR you for it.

It was a lazy vote,they were just being so irritating..

Fair. Just pointing out that I've TR'd you for a lazy vote, so I'm aware it could seem contradictory to do so for NK15 when they've made a lazy vote, but the difference is I suppose I SR'd them already.

[MalcolmTucker]

NK15 - do you actually think Math is mafia, or is that a frustration vote?

[MalcolmTucker]

I guess what I'm fundamentally trying to get at here is - do we think NK15 is mafia for how they are approaching the game?

Their ISO and their reads progression is a bit all over the place. Two of their main suspects, Flavor and HEM, have been at each other's throats for a large portion of the game. They've now also voted Math. In a game that feels like it's perhaps been a bit two-sided depending on where you sat on the Flavor wagon either for or against, I think it's interesting that NK15 kinda has a readslist that, while I don't agree with it, feels pretty unique and against the grain compared to most players here.

On the one hand that could be mafia backed into a corner wanting to avoid just opportunistically jumping onto certain wagons - but by the same token, is it the readslist of a player who is mafia trying to blend in? Or just erratic mafia under pressure?

[MalcolmTucker]

To add - I feel like NK15's early ISO has a lot of "explain this" or "please respond to this" type posts which could easily be mafia trying to act like concerned townie without having to immediately substantiate or push forward a read. But that could also be a style thing I suppose.

[MalcolmTucker]

NK15 - do you actually think Math is mafia, or is that a frustration vote?

It was partly anger, partly misrep based.

So you don't actually particularly believe Math is mafia then no?

[MalcolmTucker]

My complex theory is town Scorpious secretly loves lists and says they don't to goad more players into doing them. 4D chess.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Malcolm - Would you consider going Roden over Monkey today?

Just caught up and while I don't entirely trust HEM I've liked their posts a bit more than I had up until now. They want to vote Mala of course, but feel like it'd have been easy for them to go more all-in on you given Koopa's recent approach to make the valid seem easier and more immediate in terms of pushing it.

My preferred elimination for now is NK15, I can see a world where NK15 started pushing HEM to take the heat off themselves for the wagon on you once it started to fade.

VOTE: Not Known 15

I'm still not particularly convinced by Roden but do feel like it's convenient their reads are very much casually lining up for what would be most convenient for them re you + Mala, if that makes sense. So if it comes down to a 1v1 I'd vote Roden, but I want to hear a lot more from Mala because while I didn't SR them early on, I'm feeling increasingly uneasy about the slot's lack of activity.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Koopa is just ridiculously town here but needs to fundamentally alter their current approach to the game - they were stuffing every page with an absurd number of posts every night saying the same things over and over again, and I say this as someone who also has a habit of repeating points I'm trying to make.

Not everyone is going to agree with their reads on D1 and trying to use a role claim to absolutely insist where our votes must go while vetoing other candidates is not a good look at all. We are all trying to solve here and simply posting a lot does not give any player the inherent right to completely take over the town, especially when Jackson's posts above highlight certain assumptions being made by Koopa may potentially be incorrect.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Koopa is just ridiculously town here but needs to fundamentally alter their current approach to the game - they were stuffing every page with an absurd number of posts every night saying the same things over and over again, and I say this as someone who also has a habit of repeating points I'm trying to make.

Not everyone is going to agree with their reads on D1 and trying to use a role claim to absolutely insist where our votes must go while vetoing other candidates is not a good look at all. We are all trying to solve here and simply posting a lot does not give any player the inherent right to completely take over the town, especially when Jackson's posts above highlight certain assumptions being made by Koopa may potentially be incorrect.

Sorry this should say overnight, not every night.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add I'm just fundamentally very wary of the idea we've solved this game early on with Mala supposedly making themselves obvious in the first few pages as mafia before teammate Flavor then comes in to defend them resolutely and also basically then reveals themselves as mafia. That's not me saying neither player can slip or make an error here, because clearly they can, but I struggle to see a world here where mafia Flavor comes out and bats for mafia Mala so earnestly, which is essentially one of Koopa's main arguments here.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't entirely disagree with your argument HEM that a Mala elimination might be useful in terms of giving us info as to who's pushed there and who's gone elsewhere, and I'd probably be okay to back you up on it if I didn't suspect you myself. I dunno, I still think NK15 is our best shout here, but while I fundamentally think mafia were on the Flavor wagon, I'm not at all convinced Roden is particularly suspect despite Flavor's misgivings.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't entirely disagree with your argument HEM that a Mala elimination might be useful in terms of giving us info as to who's pushed there and who's gone elsewhere, and I'd probably be okay to back you up on it if I didn't suspect you myself. I dunno, I still think NK15 is our best shout here, but while I fundamentally think mafia were on the Flavor wagon, I'm not at all convinced Roden is particularly suspect despite Flavor's misgivings.

it's just that... i really like my wagon yknow?

dont let me keep you from building that wagon if that's where you want to go.

i also think roden is town. i entertained roden pocketing me. that would only be useful to think about if i already think roden is scum, which i don't.

I just don't really share your concerns re Mala's jokey mason claim. That was all it felt like to me - a standard joke, which at best might elicit some interesting reactions. Is there any benefit for scum forcing a mason claim at that point in the game? My main concern re Mala is their general inactivity, especially given they are under pressure.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think its a smart conclusion based on how you all 3 mysteriously townread eachother - and mala has thrown a townread at you preemptively.

Do you seriously think you've solved the game this easily and simply on D1? I'm not buying this at all, even if there were mafia in there I'd wager at least one of the read has been pocketed and/or is misreading. Most of us should acknowledge we will inevitably make some early incorrect reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think FL is just pocketed town and Scorpious is more likely to be the third mafioso. His playstyle really reads to me like a defeated scum being sad at his teammates sinking day 1.

Koopa is super town.

Scorpious has been playing the same way consistently throughout D1 and has done this before as town, this is quite frankly a bit of a leap. Why are players acting as if the game has been solved pre end of D1? Some of you seem remarkably overconfident given the back and forth arguments we've seen, I'm very much on the Flavor/Mala side here and yet wouldn't for a moment claim to be 100% the likes of you/HEM/NK15 will definitely come back mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think its a smart conclusion based on how you all 3 mysteriously townread eachother - and mala has thrown a townread at you preemptively.

Do you seriously think you've solved the game this easily and simply on D1? I'm not buying this at all, even if there were mafia in there I'd wager at least one of the read has been pocketed and/or is misreading. Most of us should acknowledge we will inevitably make some early incorrect reads.

Sorry I've misread this - I thought you were claiming all three were definite mafia, not masons.

But anyway Koopa why are you deliberately baiting for masons here? It may be more useful for us to have info out in the open potentially given our stalemate but considering you have all claimed, we should not be forcing mass role reveals at this stage. That's something that should be discussed within the town.

[MalcolmTucker]

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think FL is just pocketed town and Scorpious is more likely to be the third mafioso. His playstyle really reads to me like a defeated scum being sad at his teammates sinking day 1.

Koopa is super town.

Scorpious has been playing the same way consistently throughout D1 and has done this before as town, this is quite frankly a bit of a leap. Why are players acting as if the game has been solved pre end of D1? Some of you seem remarkably overconfident given the back and forth arguments we've seen, I'm very much on the Flavor/Mala side here and yet wouldn't for a moment claim to be 100% the likes of you/HEM/NK15 will definitely come back mafia.

NK has also played the way consistently like Scorpious

NK15's playstyle hasn't been anything like Scorpious for me. I disagree with their pushes but unlike Scorpious I don't think their pushes have been lazy as such.

[MalcolmTucker]

Jackson's claim seems reasonable, insisted this morning their post about Koopa potentially reading the roles then was very townie and incredibly unlikely to come from mafia given the circumstances. Will read back for reactions to see how that was pushed in a while.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well fun fact malcom: NK15 isnt Scorpious
And Nk has made more attempts to solve slots than scorpuous has?
How are you equating lazy to wolf :lol"

I think NK15 has at least more consistently tried to show the logic behind their solves than Scorpious has but their actual reads have been inconsistent and at times opportunistic. They claimed Mala was "obvious" mafia but then backed off. They were on the Flavor wagon but then redirected onto HEM, who had largely instigated that Flavor wagon. Scorpious I don't think was really reading at all for a while and their mafia read on you was incredibly lazy in a way that'd be careless for mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

That is a hallmark of NK15's townplay, yes.

Considering you have been pushing some players for just about everything you've done, you do not find it weird at all NK15 completely redirected their vote from Flavor to HEM despite not having suspected HEM beforehand?

[MalcolmTucker]

I am out of spoons tonight. Just got done doing unexpected OT.

I will hammer anyone who isn’t a locktown read (who is almost anyone) if they get to N-1 otherwise will see how I feel tomorrow.

So the Not Mafia rule is in effect apparently. this sucks btw and gives me a major scum vibe..

Just know with this threat any E-1 vote is essentially a hammer…

Decent spot this.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have read Nk15's meta more thoroughly than others.
NK15 will back me up on that.

I think it's quite lazy to default to meta here. What specifically about their meta leaves you fully comfortable with their sudden redirect from Flavor to HEM?

[MalcolmTucker]

That is a hallmark of NK15's townplay, yes.

Are you sure you are not lying about this being your second game on this site?

How could you say something like this?

Koopa seems to have been spending some time going through meta, but I feel like there must be some proper generalisations here unless they are genuinely spending just about every waking moment to analysing player metas etc.

[MalcolmTucker]

Koopa - in the nicest possible way, if you choke the gamestate to this extent then some of us are just going to find it incredibly hard to read and catch up. You are allowed to make your points and move on. Please stop asserting that you have definitively "caught" someone, if you are town then this is extraordinarily unlikely for even the best of players.

I do still think Koopa is town but I'm finding their reads incredibly unreliable and based on attempts to confirm their own bias. They spot a supposed small slip from Flavor on their Roden read without acknowledging that reads can evolve and change. I'd wager almost every player will almost have some inconsistency in how they perceive players because, again, reads evolve and change, and people often express themselves in different ways at times in ways that can become confused. Koopa will also use previous meta as a reason to excuse a player like NK15 but unless they are dedicating every waking moment they have to this game their meta info on some players in the game will clearly be quite limited. That's fine, it's useful for context, but please stop using these meta reads for a definitive outlook on the game.

Gamma's posts make me even more confident than I was before that the slot is town. I felt Flavor was town anyway but if Gamma was mafia they would likely want to keep me onside if I had the wrong read of them. Gamma's post that I'm on their radar interested me because it feels like a townie player having a genuinely different read from their predecessor.

I'll back either a Kitty/Nk15 wagon today, I think the latter is more obvious but still feels a bit obvious given it's D1. I think it's very possible that Kitty could be hanging back a bit more to differentiate from other members of their team, and I don't see any reason the two couldn't be teammates given interactions and posts since the idea of either of them as main wagon was floated.

Jackson is town for me and I think anyone pushing there is wasting energy. The claim was genuine and before that Jackson had already expressed concerns that Koopa was misreading potential roles in the game which troubled them. I don't think Scorpious has been approaching the game as mafia would but I don't like that they've now pushed two role claimed players.

[MalcolmTucker]

Idea:
Scorpious Traitor
Italiano and Mala wolves.

I need to so another reISO session later.
The push on me is very flimsy and utilitizes things I know are present in my playstyle that wolves very often think are "wolfy" looking. I know because, obviously, I see it first hand :p

In other news I think HEM is a villager based on recent posts, unfortunately its a sort of conviction/want to be heard kind of energy I see in them.

That being said, we have not seen this in a while, I'll take the advice that no one wants to pressure inactive slots(poor decision imo but I am not a 1 man army) and: VOTE: Mala

Ngl this constant reISO deal is starting to feel like a lot of useless noise

This is one of my major issues with how Koopa is playing irrespective of alignment, they are giving the impression of doing a lot of work by going back and continually combing through ISOs but it's still D1 and we don't know who is mafia for definite, given their approach they are clearly analysing some of these players with pre-confirmed biases in mind.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: nk15

NK is a compromise. Honestly unsure about them at this point in the game, they're neutral. But if the alternative is no lim or me, then sure.

I'm aware not everyone is keen on associatives, but I don't like this post at all if looking at the game from a POV where Kitty is mafia but a team member who deliberately held back from pushing Flavor earlier in the game.

If they are teammates, quite possible Kitty is acknowledging one of them may have to be sacrificed albeit reluctantly to move on. The uncertainty would allow Kitty not to back a mafia teammate while avoiding putting any further pressure on them in case an alternative wagon does emerge.

But, of course, this would involve us having two mafia as our main wagons on D1...which feels incredibly unlikely. So to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Uh, about that...

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Uh, about that...

Yes?
Koopa is right.
FL talked BS, and I had the evidence to back it up further.

Flavor is no longer in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not even going to lie, I think if koopa wasn't a PR claimant I'd think they would be paired with either Kitty or NK as they keep attempting to switch to another wagon immediately after saying they'd settle down on a vote. Like not like gradual, wait I do think this is better type of movement. They throw up a case, it gets debunks and they settle back down.

Their arguments for avoiding both players are incredibly vague too. They keep saying Kitty's ISO progression wouldn't make sense as mafia but there's little actual evidence for why this is the case and it's again Koopa basically deciding their view of the game is definitive and cannot be wrong. Likewise they claim to have done a meta check on NK15 which somehow acts as clearing them when this is evidently nonsense.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Uh, about that...

Yes?
Koopa is right.
FL talked BS, and I had the evidence to back it up further.

Flavor is no longer in the game.

VOTE: GammaEmerald

Have Gamma's posts since they entered the game made you reflect on your position re this at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

Really seeing some creative takes really intent to discredit the eork I've put into the gamr

Have you considered that not everyone is solely making reads based on your gameplay or your opinions, and that acknowledging this is probably of relative importance to discovering who is mafia? We disagree, that's fine, you are entitled to convince me but I think there's a decent chance NK15 is mafia, their progression of reads on HEM was incredibly suspect and very opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can someone tell me where to vote for now? I’m so far behind and I’m going to need to invest some time into actually reading. I trust Kitty’s accuracy somewhat so if they’re Town here, I’ll give them my vote.

For what it's worth I don't particularly trust Kitty at the moment, think there have been subtle potential mafia hints in their play. At the moment it seems likely to be one of NK15/HEM judging by the way it's going barring some major swings. How much are you aware of so far? Guessing you've perhaps been busy but surprised at how quiet you have been.

[MalcolmTucker]

If I were to launch an actual towncase on FL/Gamma:

I don't think Flavor's play earlier on was particularly beneficial for mafia or particularly useful as a strategy. Their decision to jump in on those who went on the Mala bandwagon felt like it was a good way to open up the game and find potentially opportunistic mafia who liked the idea of an early wagon on what was a relatively flimsy basis. NK15, for example, was branding Mala "obvious" but then pulled back on the basis of having missed one post.

Flavor's play, again, feels like it very much split the game into two camps in a way that will be useful for gaining valuable info further down the line. There are lots of mafia team combos we now know aren't viable because of that.

I feel like the counterwagon on Flavor only really developed after we'd let them take control of the game, a point I made at the time. Why the delay? To a degree it felt coordinated for me.

To an extent at points I feel like Koopa/HEM (if the latter is indeed town) have wanted Flavor to be mafia because they liked the idea of a big scalp or catching out a big ego. But Flavor's frustration with Koopa seemed genuine and not that of a mafia player on the verge of going out. There's no reason Flavor wouldn't have survived D2 had they stayed in the game - even if NK15 was town there'd have been plenty of debate over what to do next. Indeed, with Koopa's reads being a bit all over the place at times and being very emotive, I'd argue mafia Flavor would've rather seen that sowing potentially incorrect ideas, insisting they are correct and then demanding we follow them in their beliefs. Their anger, again, as with a lot of what they've said, seemed to come from a desire to solve more than a desire to confuse.

I also think Gamma has been inherently townie since coming in. Disliking me more than Flavor, for example, is an interesting play because it suggests two townies in the same slot with different opinions on a player. Why does mafia Gamma risk alienating me or anyone else who has defended the slot?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't believe you've actually given any thought to the way FL treated Roden. And everyone who townreads them has lacked the same information of seeing Roden treatment.

They suspected Roden early on, dropped that suspicion a bit, and their read later evolved. Roden misrepresented FL in a lot of early posts as well, claiming they didn't really have concrete reads, but you conveniently don't bring that up because ultimately you just want this slot to be mafia because you want to have made a big catch which solved the game on D1. Townies can be inconsistent in reads, mafia can be inconsistent in reads, FL's supposed slip is no worse than NK15 suddenly reneging on their suspicion of Mala or conveniently suddenly making HEM their vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have paid attention this game -> FL pushed people, waited for wagons to build, then withdrew.

My read on how he was using mala was correct and frankly i have the best understanding of the overall game due to having read everythng.
Do you really have 0 concern that FL was trying his best to avoid explaining a read in more detail with evidence? Like seriously - LOOK at his ISO- search for Roden in it. Look at how he pushes the slot.

It's so blatantly wolfy - I understand its hard to see without the whole story - but I'm telling you that no villager pushes townies like that and cannot even cite a single post where they wolfread them. He got angry because Roden and I refused to let him control the conversation around it. Ask yourself WHY he kept repeatedly refusing to substantiate this request.

So if you'd not role claimed, you'd be happy with us pushing to eliminate you on the basis of occasions where you've decided to vote slots with minimal activity despite suspecting plenty of other players?

[MalcolmTucker]

I do have a suggestion that we should stop focusing on FL, myself, and monkey. I'm going to probably tone down my posting massively. I want other slots discussed because this is choking the gamestate.

I’d like it to be noticed that once this happened, and yet again it was about to diffuse that both Roden and HEM popped in and made a comment to keep the momentum going.


I am not wrong that there is scum energy in that bubble.

Here’s the thing, Koopa, yes, I push slots you see as town as scum, but I’m actively aware that it’s likely not all scum, meaning that in theory, our reads do line up more underneath the surface, if that makes sense.

This is also very +scum. You want to be able to push whoever you want without any kind of confrontation in return. You're just framing any one who tries to respond or challenge you as scum trying to displace momentum.

The issue is that if you actually cared about momentum, you would just cut any attempts to manipulate momentum short by answering what have been fairly easy questions. I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

Town has no reason to do that, but scum does.

I'm just looking to see what's going on in your head but you're refusing to let anyone peek, instead you're shading anyone who tries to understand you.

what do you mean I'm refusing to let anyone peek? I feel my thoughts are essentially out there on almost every slot in the game. If anything, I'm giving more than the majority of the players in this game.

My read on you at the time was just that insignificant. Now you just wanted to make more out of it.

This is actually false. You've posted quite a bit and have given plenty of reads, but you've done very little to actually explain them. Many of your reads are shallow and have vague justifications like "I sense a scum bubble with X players" or "I think scum is shifting momentum". Like none of that actually tells us anything.

I don't believe that your read on me was meant to be insignificant. You made a point of trying to get people to latch onto it while you argued with HEM. But nobody followed your PoE solve and now you want to act like it can't be used to try to read or solve you.

This was a blatant misrep for me albeit probably one which came from town frustration. Flavor was pretty clear with reads considering they were the most active player in the game at that point and I disagree they'd been particularly vague.

[MalcolmTucker]

NK15 stopped pushing Mala after she posted a bunch of game advancing content - how is that bad?

I too flipped my read based on that -
This isnt about inconsistency in reads - this is straight up having no real reason for the read and pretending like they do.

This is not why they stopped pushing Mala, they stopped pushing Mala because they claimed to have missed a post from them early game re their reasons for supposedly being happy to be town with JV. They went from seeing Mala as "obvious" scum to dropping the read incredibly early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

FL never cases people. That’s not his thing. So yeah I have 0 concern.

My bigger concern is why you won’t talk about your NK15 read.

With your hyperposting and ultradefensiveness if you weren’t a claimed PR I would be elimming you.

It’s infuriating how anytime a wagon gets going you shut it down.

He was asked to quote posts from roden that substantiated his read. Not a hard task.

You refuse to see it from the other side. I have considered FL town - and that is evidence in my ISO.

And I've done so, can you please understand players need time to reply when going back to fetch old posts?

[MalcolmTucker]

FL never cases people. That’s not his thing. So yeah I have 0 concern.

My bigger concern is why you won’t talk about your NK15 read.

With your hyperposting and ultradefensiveness if you weren’t a claimed PR I would be elimming you.

It’s infuriating how anytime a wagon gets going you shut it down.

He was asked to quote posts from roden that substantiated his read. Not a hard task.

You refuse to see it from the other side. I have considered FL town - and that is evidence in my ISO.

And I've done so, can you please understand players need time to reply when going back to fetch old posts?

[MalcolmTucker]

Now prove its a misrep by quoting FL posts that debunk it.

Flavor responds and disagrees with the read in the very posts I've quoted? The interactions are there for you to see if you literally click back. If you have time to do full meta's on NK15 when you've never played with them before, to the point where it determines your read on them to a large degree, I don't think that is particularly difficult.

[MalcolmTucker]

NK15 stopped pushing Mala after she posted a bunch of game advancing content - how is that bad?

I too flipped my read based on that -
This isnt about inconsistency in reads - this is straight up having no real reason for the read and pretending like they do.

This is not why they stopped pushing Mala, they stopped pushing Mala because they claimed to have missed a post from them early game re their reasons for supposedly being happy to be town with JV. They went from seeing Mala as "obvious" scum to dropping the read incredibly early on.

And thats towny as fuck to do - unless Mala is wolf.

So why isn't it townie when FL's read on Roden evolved substantially? You've taken one minor differentiation in how they were casing Roden and used it to claim you have caught mafia, sorry but this is inherently ridiculous.

[MalcolmTucker]

Imagine being wolfread for updating your reads in real time based on new posts.
I'm so sorry you have to deal with this NK15.

You know this is not the primary reason I wolfread NK15, can you actually take some time to read the replies I'm posting here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Look, unlike Koopa I'm willing to accept I might be wrong on Gamma down the line and I may have to reevaluate my read. Town should be able to do this. But I don't think the slot is mafia, nor does Math, and nor do seemingly the majority of players. A lot of this will be wasted energy Koopa because unless you can give us new information we are not intending to get rid of the slot today. Your arguments here are fundamentally not convincing me otherwise because you approach the game in a way where you want to confirm your own bias. Every small thing you dislike in Flavor's gameplay is used as a justification for your read.

I say this as town - you are constantly clogging up the thread with repetitive arguments which will make it easier for mafia to hide down the line and avoid engaging in arguments when you have developed an obsession with one slot. As a townie your posts are not helping me solve the game or hunt mafia and I don't get the impression I am alone in that. I'm more than happy to work with you and at times I've appreciated your enthusiasm in trying to drive things forward but if you are town you need to engage with us in a way which will actually help town win the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I expect an apology when I end up being right about FL.

This is a deduction game, people get things wrong, I've been miseliminated as town before, it's crap but I don't demand an apology because I've made identical errors. It's D1, it is fundamentally hard to eliminate mafia, if it wasn't town would win all the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

I will be dead night 1 and no one will reevaluate the slot until it is too late rofl.
I know how the game works. People dont listen to legacies.

If we eliminate town tonight I will absolutely be looking at the slot again tomorrow. You know how the game works (likely better than me) but so do several regular and experienced posters here who disagree with you. Your opinion is worthy of consideration but not automatically worth more than theirs either. If you expect people to listen to you in a deduction game you need to actually convince them of your argument instead of telling us all how great you are and how you have solved this game immediately.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am also frustrated at you finding my strengthened townread on you to be suspicious when you yourself pushed me to read your meta as if you felt it was obvious when you are a wolf - so there's that

I wouldn't have an issue with it if it was believable.

1. Your meta-dive on me was concluded in you being more confident I was scum.
2. I couldn't find a post where you described what about that post you referred to made me lock-town. Or at least with details enough to make me lock-town rather than just continuing a strong town read on me like before.

Ok I guess I'll come clean - I was tunneled and I lied about really meta diving you and skimmed your list of threads and chose the first mafia chat I could find

This is why I'm inclined to not particularly take any of your reads seriously or as indicative as to where I'll vote despite the fact I'm close to certain you're town - you're clearly just making up things as you go along to suit your own narrative because you want to lead the town and can't envisage an alternative where you don't. If you've lied about doing a proper meta on JV then I'm not particularly convinced you've done all that much meta on anyone else or ISO work on anyone despite claiming to have done so, you're looking for what you want to find, not what will solve the game and find mafia which is our goal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Read through the last 7/8 pages and doesn't feel like anything has changed as such. I generally like as much content as possible to go back to later in the game but doubt we're going to go much further. Content on my NK15 vote for now and can review that in the morning depending on how wagons are forming.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd like a hammer asap. We aren't getting anywhere.

Alternatives I would consider to NK15 are HEM and Kitty. HEM has toned it down a bit but could just be clever mafia play, I'm fairly sure there's one in NK15/HEM.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nah, still not feeling Mala.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nah, still not feeling Mala.

NK15 is doing significantly more solving than Mala - what do you townread mala for then?

Mafia inherently make an effort to solve because they want to appear town. You seem to sometimes solely read people on how obviously scummy they look but mafia want to blend in and good players do so successfully to a point if town can't find them. Mala doesn't seem particularly bothered to me and I don't think their posts are coming from anything other than fairly uninvolved town at the moment, similar with Scorpious to a degree although I'm intrigued to see how they play going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

Roden why did you drop Mala

I was having doubts when Mala started to actually play since her comeback felt genuinely townie. And Leaf claiming to be pocketed but literally being unable to explain why or how made me think Mala was the actual pocket instead. With that in mind, my gut was telling me that a Mala flip could lead to some chain mis-elims. Even if Leaf is scum, the elim wasn't happening today and I wanted to look for potential buddies instead.

However the Koba reveal is forcing me to hard reset entirely. Literally nothing is out of their scum range, and I need to reevaluate their main points to see if they were genuine or if I was just getting taken along for a ride. I feel like I've been getting heavily encouraged to tunnel Leaf, and despite my own attempts to try to step back I now just have all bad vibes gnawing away in the pit of my stomach.

This feels very, very townie for what it's worth.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway I need to go, will evaluate everything in the morning. Please don't add 20 pages.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Humaneatingmonkey

Settling on this for now but very much just want this turn done.

[MalcolmTucker]

We now have three claims, don't we? I'm willing to trust them D1 but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility somebody is lying in some way here. Certainly easier to get by when you have alternative candidates who could be killed overnight.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nah, still not feeling Mala.

Can you explain this in more detail?

I fundamentally don't believe Mala is mafia here. I think they've largely been frustrated so far but up until now I've bought that it's genuine and the pushes on Mala have often felt quite contrived - the second attempt to get the wagon on them going had three votes in 13 posts. I don't think the slot has offered a huge amount to the game but also feel it's become an easy place for some players to default, especially those who dislike Gamma's slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Had you particularly suspected or pushed Gamma so far Scorpious? Surprised they're in your mafia list.

[MalcolmTucker]

I really don't like Andre essentially saying nothing at this point given how long they've been in the game, sure they won't go today but need to push there D2 to get them contributing. If they're mafia they've hidden away from any possible links so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

I just can't look at someone who pushed a claimed investigative day 1 and say "yeah this is town". Absurd.

Assuming this is to me.

Every time you post I think scum more and more.

Can you please read my stuff instead of these weak one line generic quips.

I read your posts, I'm not blind, you hard pushed koopa after their claim. Doesn't make sense from a town POV.

Why would mafia hard push a role claimed town player right away without claiming themselves? I feel like people are conflating their dislike of Scorpious' posts with Scorpious actually being mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious, please explain your ItalianoVD read.

Just got done with a town Italiano, almost identical play..

Do you think Italiano has a fundamentally different style as mafia? To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't like Scorpious putting Gamma in their mafia reads when so far as I'm aware they've not particularly pushed that slot at all from what I can recall.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious, please explain your ItalianoVD read.

Just got done with a town Italiano, almost identical play..

Do you think Italiano has a fundamentally different style as mafia? To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

Idk. I’ve seen them once.. and it was town. I have no scum basis,but it doesn’t make sense to read them as scum if they are playing like the one game I saw them in as town.

Some players don't change style all that much. Indeed that's a perfectly good reason to believe someone could be clever mafia who manage to blend in. This is a pretty weak read if your basis for it is one game for meta.

[MalcolmTucker]

Let’s try that again…

Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day because if they get limmed, wow you hanged a crucial role.

I would assume common procedure is not to claim in the first place, especially within the context of this game. And look at what you said: “live a day”. Scum want to bide time because of the very fact that

“Common procedure is to let the investigative claim live a day”

Now I know the action is really nai, but as I said earlier claiming pr, at least in my mind, does not and should not clear you as town. If I found you scummy before the claim, I’m gonna still find you scummy after the claim, more or less based on the context and why you did it, to be fair.

All claims in this game have been pointless and stupid. This game is about deduction and strategy, not which pr can lead us to victory. I won’t be budging from within my limpool. So if anybody wants to know who I’ll be voting for today

Eh, I'd say Koopa's claim was premature and unnecessary, but Jackson's felt reasonable given the gamestate and their concerns over how Koopa was using their role to read the game, and NK15 was in danger of being eliminated. I agree with your fundamental point that it's quite possible somebody here could be lying though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious, please explain your ItalianoVD read.

Just got done with a town Italiano, almost identical play..

Do you think Italiano has a fundamentally different style as mafia? To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

Idk. I’ve seen them once.. and it was town. I have no scum basis,but it doesn’t make sense to read them as scum if they are playing like the one game I saw them in as town.

Some players don't change style all that much. Indeed that's a perfectly good reason to believe someone could be clever mafia who manage to blend in. This is a pretty weak read if your basis for it is one game for meta.

Would you rather me make up some bullshit to appease you more?

I’m not affected by how “strong” you think my read is..

I don't expect you to be. I'm just pointing out the reasoning is a bit rubbish and could hypothetically be a convenient way for one mafia team member to defend a teammate. Do you expect not to be pushed at all on your reads?

[MalcolmTucker]

To me they've been playing a very careful game so far for the most part which could see them end up landing on either side. Clever mafia play if they're scum but it's certainly possible.

Careful? I haven’t heard that one before. How so?

I mean it (mostly) as a compliment! I don't really think you've been scummy so far, but your play has had a nice balance of being active enough to be noticed and engaged, while not being too involved in certain major conflicts or disagreements. Given how bogged down the game got during the protracted FL/Koopa arguments, I think a (presumably) clever player like yourself could easily blend into the town as mafia. I'm more approaching this from a POV where one of my main suspects will probably end up being wrong, and someone I don't necessarily think looks too mafia will end up being scum. You're certainly not on my elimination pool for D1 though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Of the 3, IF one is lying..

Who do you think is more apt to do so?

Malcolm, sorry.

Posts are piling up again

Logically if one of the three is lying it's probably NK15...their claim could be a classic case of mafia using it as an out and last gambit to avoid elimination.

I think Jackson is fundamentally town. Koopa hasn't helped at times but is also likely town.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE:

I AM VT

Oh my god.

[MalcolmTucker]

I genuinely misread that for a moment there and was like wtf.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah that Scorpious elimination was not great. Some of their posts were off but mafia generally try to avoid looking obvious by voting for someone who's claimed a role.

[MalcolmTucker]

fr?
I was gonna vote Kitty coming in probably, I feel like he kinda rode coattails a bit yday? He beat on Scorpious for pushing a claimed PR, which made me think Kitty claimed PR, but just generally I feel like kitty’s play has been scummy

I'd like Kitty to be put under plenty of pressure D2, agree that pushing Scorpious could be read as an opportunistic way for mafia to appear townie since some of the frustration could have been feigned as being understandable.

[MalcolmTucker]

Still think we get one mafia from a HEM/NK15 elimination. Trouble is which one.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah that Scorpious elimination was not great. Some of their posts were off but mafia generally try to avoid looking obvious by voting for someone who's claimed a role.

I know they were not ideal, but I didn't want all PRs to potentially be outted D1.

True, I get the logic to a degree but I think it was an increasingly convenient D1 push for mafia to make as the day wore on. Going to go through some ISOs tomorrow probably and see who looked quite opportunistic with their vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

fr?
I was gonna vote Kitty coming in probably, I feel like he kinda rode coattails a bit yday? He beat on Scorpious for pushing a claimed PR, which made me think Kitty claimed PR, but just generally I feel like kitty’s play has been scummy

I'd like Kitty to be put under plenty of pressure D2, agree that pushing Scorpious could be read as an opportunistic way for mafia to appear townie since some of the frustration could have been feigned as being understandable.

Still think we get one mafia from a HEM/NK15 elimination. Trouble is which one.

Are you overlooking the tracker guilty?

Oh shit, I thought for a moment NK15 was just generally suspecting Andre given their inactivity. Yeah that's an easy one then.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not much for us to discuss then I guess?

VOTE: Andresvmb

[MalcolmTucker]

Is Andre/Kitty/HEM a possible mafia team here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Also I think this kill confirms that scum don't have a Roleblocker. It would've been easy to get Koopa mis-elim'd by just blocking them every night and letting them cause chaos with their day play. Though maybe they didn't think Koopa was actually all that chaotic, potentially because their reads were actually accurate or someone on the scum team got spooked once they revealed they were Koba all along.

I was mildly surprised Koopa was eliminated due to this but they maybe just thought it was the strongest town role and best to get rid perhaps? I suppose that while Koopa's play was chaotic, lots of content can still be useful for town in the long-run even if it's a shitshow to work through.

[MalcolmTucker]

Would be surprised at this point if NK15 is faking. They could've tried to coast through D2 if mafia and let things take their course. But if Andre is somehow town NK15 would be confirmed mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

There's not really any way we can go wrong here as town unless HEM were town and to gain some unique insight from rereading the whole thing. If HEM comes back town we go for Jackson next. If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm happy to give HEM a bit of time if needed and for if anyone else has any insights who hasn't dropped in yet but really struggling to envisage a world where HEM isn't mafia. That claim was desperate, I've thought they were mafia most of the game, and Jackson's reveal felt very townie at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also apologies to NK15 for those constant pushes, hopefully game-winning townplay from them in the end last turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

guys im an easy picking right now

understand that

analyze it

if you want some vulnerability, i'm gonna go ahead and admit that i'm not gonna jeopardize my scum w/l record by staying in a losing game if i'm mafia here (people have been suspecting me since D1, and i'm unable to give my best game because i'm swamped).

Why should this matter? Either the slot is mafia or it isn't, I'd expect someone to stay in the game either way if it looked like they were going to be voted out unless they had a valid reason otherwise.

[MalcolmTucker]

"I'm not mafia because I haven't replaced out yet" is weak reasoning, unless I'm reading it wrongly.

[MalcolmTucker]

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

[MalcolmTucker]

It wouldn't make sense for it to be a slip anyway - I wouldn't be questioning "if" someone were mafia if I was on the team myself.

[MalcolmTucker]

My logic was basically if HEM comes back town, we eliminate Jackson next, so there'll be little lost from us saving HEM this turn anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm good with this actually. HEM is a second but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.
VOTE: Malcom

Why would you go from wanting an immediate elimination to backing off?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm good with this actually. HEM is a second but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.
VOTE: Malcom

Why would you go from wanting an immediate elimination to backing off?

1. Never wanted an immediate elimination.
2. I suggest actually reading the game.

Sorry I'm a bit all over the place here, I see you did say you didn't want this on the previous page. Apologies.

[MalcolmTucker]

If HEM is mafia then we're all good and we eliminate Jackson surely?

Is this a slip?

Nah that was a typo. Meant if Jackson isn't.

If Jackson isn't? That doesn't really make sense to me. That's very interesting wording in 3088

Sorry my brain is genuinely all over the place today and I'm not reading back my posts properly before posting them. My logic is as follows.

1. We should eliminate HEM because HEM is probably mafia, albeit happy to hold off on the elimination for a while.
2. If HEM comes back as town, that's unfortunate, but we eliminate Jackson if that's the case. But I doubt HEM does come back town.
3. Ergo, HEM's appeal that they're town doesn't really move me, because in a 1v1 they're best choice to be eliminated.

Hence I agree with Jackson's comment that going for a 1v1 does not make sense if they are mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Andre/HEM/Italiano starting to seem like a potential mafia team. Suspected Kitty until now but struggling to see a world where they're on the same team as HEM/Italiano at the moment unless it's been agreed one of them will be thrown under the bus. I think mafia Kitty probably still tries to mount a bit of a defence of HEM.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright let's go.

VOTE: HEM

It’s been hard for me to get a solid read on HEM, which is why it feels inconsistent. I use tone as one of the tools I use to read people and some of the tones of his posts sound townie and others sound scummy. I really wouldn’t be surprised with whatever he flips at this point as I could believe both. I didn’t truly believe Leaf’s entire case. Independently HEM feels town, but because I felt sorta strong that Leaf was town maybe he was seeing something I didn’t which is why I placed HEM right in the middle of my reads.

The latter post feels very hedgy here given the earlier vote. Feel like Italiano could've perhaps thought HEM was all but gone and wanted to get from town cred from being on that wagon if they're teammates. Likewise if HEM is town it's a way for Italiano to look like they weren't all-in on the vote now it's uncertain.

Also feel like Italiano very much misrepresented a couple of typos I made in a way that felt opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

I thought I was caught up, guess not. Been reading pg 11 and I'm not that comfortable with HEM seemingly coming to bat for me. Like it's cool in a sense, but I always feel icky when people do it and 265 is just goofy. Like I don't think it makes him scum, but I just never like it.

Although this early on is making me reconsider a bit. Not sure Italiano makes this post if HEM is a teammate. Surely better to just accept the defence being made of you without throwing shade onto the player making it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

[MalcolmTucker]

VC 1.32

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-04-25 00:30:00).

VC

Scorpious [6]:

KittyTacky [1791], Gamma Emerald [2198], Andresvmb [2233], MathBlade [2721], JacksonVirgo [2738], Not Known 15 [2745] ---

E-1

KittyTacky [2]:

ItalianoVD [1867], Scorpious [2768]

Malakittens [2]:

humaneatingmonkey [792], Malakittens [2598]

Andresvmb [1]:

koopashell [2583]

humaneatingmonkey [1]:

MalcolmTucker [2657]

Not voting [1]:

Roden [2123]

Gonna do a bit of work in general looking at the Scorpious wagon and how it built up.

Re the possibility of Kitty mafia, interesting that we have Kitty as the first vote on Scorpious, and then Andre as the third. If Kitty is mafia, perfectly possible they suggested to Andre to put a vote on there since they'd been on Scorpious for a while and the wagon would then have some proper firm momentum as a result.

Alternatively, if mafia directed the Scorpious elimination, Math as the fourth vote is potentially interesting...could argue that was what very much tipped it into being the prime elimination at a point when we were still uncertain who was going out.

Yes the argument could be made there. However that’d be flawed. If I was scum then I could have picked almost any of the 20 wagons on D1, could have encouraged any of the other bullshit that happened that day. I was just offline for the last few votes.

Trying to figure out what I make of your approach in general re Scorpious. I think you were asking him plenty of good questions on D1 and pointing out contradictions in his play that probably helped with the elimination. But if you were on the mafia team and saw Scorpious as a viable elimination I could see you doing that as mafia...if a player has made a readslist that can genuinely be picked apart as inconsistent despite them being town, it's something I think a skilled mafia player might be all over.

[MalcolmTucker]

One last thing, Andres doesn't lurk as either alignment, he is either busy or forgot about this game, probably.

VOTE: Scorpious

Night for real.

Given possibility of Kitty being mafia (and with this being the post that started the Scorpious wagon) is there a chance this is Kitty defending a mafia teammate here? Not sure if Andres genuinely was lurking due to being busy but without NK15's check we'd have been limited for info either way. Feel like this could very much be a soft attempt to stop any possible bandwagon from forming on Andres.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

I think there’s definitely some shenanigans with D1 we just don’t know. Almost no wagon took off and so I am thinking either trying to stay off for cred or trying for no elim to get rid of PRs. I could come up with a way for almost anyone could be scum but that doesn’t make it true.

There's ways you could spin lots of players looking quite scummy but that's fundamentally a central component of the game...it's surely still worth looking at no? If anything I think the Scorpious wagon was largely ignored more than it should have been due to D2 quick elimination of Andre and the HEM/JV clash to kick off D3.

Everything is worth looking into but I don’t think it’s fruitful here. I think the fact we got a wagon to actually complete and get somewhere is pretty good.

What part? The theories I'm floating re your possible involvement, or the D1 wagon in general?

[MalcolmTucker]

There's almost definitely at least one scum between {Malakittens, JacksonVirgo, Scorpious}. Italiano seems less scummy after a reevaluation but it's possible. But I'm voting between those three today barring something shaking up the gamestate in an extreme manner.

MT, you still didn't answer my question as for why TOWNIES would sit on Koopa. It's a dumb play as scum but a dumber one as town. Maybe they're trying to make a wagon crystallize. Maybe just one is scum and the other is a scummy townie who got sheeped. IDK.

@everyone

We should stop here for a moment(1 day or so) and everyone posts readslists and then we can discuss more.

I hate this idea..

Of course you do.

JacksonVirgoon. Scumpious. Mafiakittens.

moves JacksonVirgoon down to "Strong Scum"

moves JacksonVirgoon down to "Strong Scum"

You already had me there, you aren't fooling anyone.

You were a scumlean when I made my list. It's deffo you and Mala.

I think FL is just pocketed town and Scorpious is more likely to be the third mafioso. His playstyle really reads to me like a defeated scum being sad at his teammates sinking day 1.

Koopa is super town.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Sinking mafias will do anything to get townread.

Both Scumpious and Mafiakittens did basically nothing to solve this game.

Let's get Mala to E-1 so they get hammered.

I'm sorry if you're town but it's not a cardinal sin to push: a lurker; a player whose posts are mostly random complaints; and someone defending the lurker while also not doing much else. Not voting the latter but only because of the PR claim.

I just can't look at someone who pushed a claimed investigative day 1 and say "yeah this is town". Absurd.

You pushed A CLAIMED INVESTIGATIVE POWER ROLE DAY 1.

Let's all wagon Scorp.

The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.

You can also see shades of this in Kitty's reads of JV and Mala - presuming the former is definitely townie, it feels like Kitty as mafia has been picking up on any contradictions in play from townies and using said contradictions to make a mafia case. Because, like I said before, it can seem pretty convincing...technically speaking some of what Kitty said about Scorpious may be true, but it doesn't make them mafia as such because again it's not a good mafia play.

I get why the Scorpious wagon went through and we were struggling for alternatives but Kitty's continued defence of genuinely believing Scorpious was mafia afterwards doesn't really wash for me. Kitty is clever enough and presumably experienced enough to know townies can have contradictions within their game and that players who don't try to hide said contradictions are potentially more likely to be lazy town than mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re 3183 Math (won't quote it due to length), I get that the Scorpious wagon isn't going to be perfect insofar as the info we gain from it but the idea we should just largely ignore it in approaching who we should eliminate next because it's going to be confusing and hard to get anything definitive seems strange to be. Surely if it's mostly town on the wagon, it's also then worth analysing where mafia placed their votes, and what they were trying to achieve by doing this? The game for town is ultimately won via info we gain as time goes on, an actual elimination and how players voted is for me always going to be one of the best ways to gain said info, especially when we push players on the basis of it to see how they react.

[MalcolmTucker]

I just fundamentally don't see why it's a good idea to ignore a D1 wagon of a townie who (to me) really did not look like mafia because it's not going to give us definitive info. That's...largely what happens in any mafia game? A lot of this game is based on gut reads, I'd rather at least be making a gut read based on actual info we've gained, and it feels telling that Math is keen to avoid this.

[MalcolmTucker]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

As I say it's likely mafia coordinated the wagon and there's a world where you were a teammate who stayed off the wagon to give you town-cred. But I think you were consistent enough here that it's somewhat unlikely.

[MalcolmTucker]

One last thing, Andres doesn't lurk as either alignment, he is either busy or forgot about this game, probably.

VOTE: Scorpious

Night for real.

Given possibility of Kitty being mafia (and with this being the post that started the Scorpious wagon) is there a chance this is Kitty defending a mafia teammate here? Not sure if Andres genuinely was lurking due to being busy but without NK15's check we'd have been limited for info either way. Feel like this could very much be a soft attempt to stop any possible bandwagon from forming on Andres.

I don't push people who have just replaced in and have yet to post anything as a rule because they might be busy or catching up. And after Andres lurked beyond any reason I was already locked in on other people. He slipped under my radar.

I think it's fair enough that you didn't push Andres - some of us got frustrated at Koopa for trying similar gambits because we weren't ultimately going to get anywhere by pressuring a slot that wasn't engaging.

I just think it's interesting and somewhat convenient that you explicitly jumped in to assure people that Andres lurking wasn't something that indicated mafia play in the same vote that down the line started off the Scorpious wagon which eventually formed. If you were strong town I'd think nothing of it, but it's interesting given your limited engagement with the slot in general for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

The more I read back Kitty's play the more I think they're mafia. They continually stated again and again Scorpious made sense because they'd pushed a role claimed player but refused to consider that this was a pretty illogical move for mafia to make that would only put them under more suspicion, and that it was potentially more likely to end up coming from townie not thinking things through properly.

1. You have failed to provide any town reasons to sit on a claimed PR day 1.

2. I had considered me might be not thinking things through, but not only town can make mistakes.

"This play is too scummy to be scum" is strange.

This is kind of precisely my point though. It's not good play. It wasn't helping us advance the game. Koopa wasn't going to go out. But townies do things that aren't good play sometimes. It doesn't make them mafia.

"Too scummy to be scum" obviously isn't always true but it sometimes is...and literally was in this case. Ultimately the goal for scum is to stay hidden and blend in. Illogical pushes on a claimed role player is the opposite of blending in. Scorpious didn't even seem to be aware for ages Koopa had claimed, which would've been beyond careless as mafia.

Your belief Scorpious alone was mafia isn't my issue here though - I disagreed at the time but I was also fundamentally wrong on NK15. It's more the fact you appear to have suspected JV for very similar reasons at times considering they sat on Koopa too. But two mafia players sitting on the same role claimed player would've been really careless again, and was thus unlikely.

Even your push on Mala feels similar. There were some holes in Mala's early play. Mafia can exploit this for a read that seems genuine even though they know it isn't.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's terrible town play but you are ignoring the fact that it was actual town play in the end. Townies do daft things sometimes. Not everything that looks scummy is inherently scummy because as I say mafia want to blend in and avoid getting caught.

[MalcolmTucker]

As I say I understand why the Scorpious wagon went through and understand on an individual level why town might back it (some obviously did) but Scorpious' play was easily something a clever mafia player could pick up on and use to push him D1. Do you not agree with that?