Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Datisi]

good morning friends!!

v/la tuesdays and wednesdays

- uni is hell on these days. i see the *extremely* short deadline for the coalition however so i will do my best to at least check in on my phone during these days if need be

HEAL: datisi
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens
HEAL: aristeia

fire reads kinda tonally the same as he did last game. yes i did misread him that game shut up. i have a probably very horrible reason for a townping on malakittens. and i was always gonna heal ari anyway but i do genuinely like the callout in 26 to keep an eye on the deadline.

VOTE: aristeia <3

ari, why do you think fire is mafia?

[Datisi]

hi irrel!! do you have any thoughts on the posts that have been submitted so far?

[Datisi]

i'm town

i will try my best to be townie and to read four more people correctly so that we win with a successful coalition

will you be joining me?

[Datisi]

I guess that would depend on how townie you are and whether you can read me correctly as townie in the next couple of days

why do already i feel like you are keeping your distance from me this game :<

[Datisi]

HEAL: irrelephant

do you have experience with him?

[Datisi]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77726

thank you

i opened his iso in this link and i was already visualizing what i was gonna write about him not feeling the same this game and how he might actually be Just Scum, but then i noticed his first post in the iso there is around post 900 so there goes my theory

i feel like you're not necessarily wrong on thinking our interaction is weird because i did think it was weird too, but fmpov it is kind of clear which side is weird so your callout is Odd to me

(not necessarily scummy, just Odd)

[Datisi]

@ari:

i am under the impression that i've also had similar posts in the guardians game, especially wrt being sent to the minigame which requires voting town, but i might be misremembering. i'll check it later if i decide it's important enough

and i know the fact is whether you will be going onto the coalition is not solely your decision. but i asked a more open question like that because i thought that ari who wants to be in a coalition with me (which is what i'd expect if you're town) would be more interested in it / would respond more positively, and not in the hedgy and lowkey avoidant manner that you did

[Datisi]

And, well, why/how do you think ari is being weird here?

the above is kinda my response for this

for the record, the *amount* of flirting is not what worries me about her, since last game i scumread her for "not flirting enough" and it did not prove to be accurate

[Datisi]

VOTE: dats

bad vote

i can't believe you randed scum again

[Datisi]

I don't think the "do you want to join me" question needs to be asked because of course I would love to join you dear.

i wanted to ask it without explicitly asking it because then you KNOW what response i am looking for

if you did think that i'm asking something else, then your response kind of makes sense?? i'll decide later

[Datisi]

one, i completely forgot skitter was also in that fl game

two, VOTE: skitter

i rechecked and there was like, one mention from each of us towards the other at the start and then we kinda ignored one another for a while back, so skitt saying that it went longer than here (which???) and that she has feels but can't quite figure out who they're coming from is like

not a good look considering the setup we're playing

[Datisi]

And i'm kinda baffled that you agree with me that your interactions feel off but that i'm scummy for noting / feeling that

i agreed that i felt ari's response towards me was weird

then she gave a plausible explanation to why it was weird, and then you went on to make weird comparisons with a past game, and started egging on that we should both be left out

which like, it makes *me* baffled that apparently just because i thought one response from ari was weird on the last page, i suddenly can't call out what i feel like is a potentially malicious read? because nowhere did i say i'm strongly scumreading ari and it's page 3 so not like reads are very much set in stone so calling out this "inconsistency" is ???

[Datisi]

i agreed that i felt ari's response towards me was weird

then she gave a plausible explanation to why it was weird,

I mean you indicated you thought ot was weird for me to think that before she gave said explanation

she gave an explanation in 56/64 and i voted you in 68?

[Datisi]

who are the first 3

[Datisi]

i get the feeling that, in the case those three are all town, it's maybe gonna be difficult to actually agree on that

[Datisi]

i *feel* like, if ari were scum, it doesn't make too much sense for her to see skitt attacking her and go "actually i will try to placate this fight by proposing a coalition of me skitt and dats, after skitt said she does not want neither me nor dats in the coalition"

like i know fighting with skitter is not Fun but this does not seem like a move scum makes because like, i don't feel like skitt would be very open to that idea

[Datisi]

still doesn't change the fact i agreed her post towards me was weird and you (skitt) went and made it about our interactions in two directions when that was never my problem

[Datisi]

i mean my point was moreso that if your goal was to placate skitter, then going "hey skitt, let's get you into a coalition with the two people that you do not want in a coalition" is like, not the most effective strategy

[Datisi]

i am Not Thinking about yeetlo because this is one of the rare games town!me can not have to suffer through yeetlo

i think it is, like first i doubt skitter would just go "nah" because if she is town, then that proposal probably makes skitter even more suspicious of you (unless wifom gets her to actually trust you with it which i don't think is likely), and it also makes any future attempts at buddying her more difficult or more likely for her to realize that you are indeed buddying her

like if you're a scumplayer who makes posts with very little future planning in mind, then i'd agree that's probably nai, but you don't strike me as such a scumplayer?

[Datisi]

lim inside:
(1/3) * (2/5) + (2/3) * (1/5) = 0.267

lim outside:
(1/3) * (0/

4

) + (2/3) * (1/

4

) =

0.167

bolded corrections are mine

[Datisi]

VOTE: datisi

HEAL: Save the Dragons
HEAL: fireisreadsir
HEAL: skitter30

hi std, what are your thoughts on the current state of this game of mafia

[Datisi]

it just feels like you're overexplainy in a way that looks bad, i dunno. i also didn't like 37 it feels robotic almost like "beep boop i am town. i form a coalition. join me or die beep boop" i dunno i just didn't buy it

fire seems genuine so far and skitter seems to be actually solving even though there's still little to go on

"join me or die" feels really uncharitable compared to what i actually said but okay

[Datisi]

UNVOTE: because that was maybe L-1?

unfortunately, a yeet cannot go through before a coalition has been achieved.

[Datisi]

I should be in more Heal lists tbh

tell me the secret scum-catching things you're using and i will consider it?

[Datisi]

HURT: all
HEAL: datisi
HEAL: aristeia
HEAL: skitter
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens

[Datisi]

i had a vision about her first post being a townping and nobody from the people i didn't heal has surpassed it

[Datisi]

HEAL: skitter

Wait why

idk i felt like it

looking back, i don't hate your posts as much as i did the first time around so you get a seat for now

[Datisi]

i had a vision about her first post being a townping and nobody from the people i didn't heal has surpassed it

I feel that I should have

(1) which one of your 4 posts do you believe that i should be townreading you for
(2) i actively did not like 59 because i remember town!you reacting with a *bit* more charisma

[Datisi]

due to witnessing your scum performance in that pyp game which had a similarly packed playerlist, i do not subscribe to "scum!mena would always tryhard"

also it is page five and less than 24 hours into the game which is way too fucking early for making such claims anyway

AND the reason i dislike your play is not the lack of effort but rather a tonal aspect, which is not as easy to overcome as "lol i would just do it"

therefore you are not townie and i am not convinced

[Datisi]

hello i am alive

i will be reading through what i missed properly in a bit, but there are two things i wanna cover right away

re 224:

(1) i healed malakittens because 8 is a post that i don't think? scum makes if they have a pregame chat with their partner and either one of them has bothered to plan ahead. because afair recent coalition games usually started with "hello i am healing a random group of people" not "i am voting for a random person". and someone who went to check previous games would probably remember that.

if you're now thinking "wow that's bullshit, scum can be lazy and not check previous games for meta", yes, absolutely! which is why it's a townping based on a single post on page 1 rather than a read set in stone!

(2) irrel: enters the game saying how he's haha so town while doing nothing that a townie entering the game would be doing
also irrel: why am i being questioned

yes, i get that this section is probably(?) criticizing me for my vocabulary choice and not the substance of the question. but it gives me a way to introduce my reasoning for the third point so i am taking it while making fun of the criticism because i'm pretty sure irrel can also see it's not a very good point.

(3) boy oh boy.

first, i don't do second hand meta cases. i know you've never played with me so it's very unlikely you know this, but i've said this multiple times over in the past.

then, the reason why i almost decided you were "just scum" was because you entered that game and had some sorta game-related action within a minute of entering. while here, you entered the game with "wow look at me i sure did roll town in this game" and then nothing for a while.

the *reason* why seeing you start at post 900 was that it made me realize that, oh shit, you were a replacement that game, therefore there was much more content in that game once you started playing in it than in this one, and you could've been reading the game yourself before you repped in, which is all variables that i cannot control and do not care to control therefore it's easier to just dump my case in the trash.

what did you think was my point here anyway? that i arbitrarily decided to trash my case because you just so happened to be a replacement that game?

[Datisi]

which, by the way

i get accused of being scum because i'm "overexplain-y"

but if i don't explain things i do properly, then this kinda shit happens where i get points made against me based on ??? people's weird interpretations of my posts

i'm not mad no not mad at all

[Datisi]

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,

with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

i am interested in the bolded

[Datisi]

Hi Dats <3

hi ari <3

did you solve the game for me while i was gone? i wanna get carried again :>

[Datisi]

the other thing i wanted to note down is:

nk15 is really not as townie as people make him out to be for not trying to get into the coalition or whatever. first problem with that an "optimal" route is to get one scum in, not two anyway. second is that, from what i remember from playing with nk15 in rc's upick and skimming his game in that anon game, is that his scum!performance is much more similar to this. like i could actually *feel* the thought process behind his actions in rc's upick, even if they were actions i really did not agree with. and third, nk15 has never played with both me and ari, he's played with me once in recent times and not sure how many times he's played with ari. i find it extremely dubious that he would think he could nail the exact scumteam based on one (1) interaction he has no prior experience with, and that he would be so confident in that read he wouldn't bother reading other people.

[Datisi]

Ugh dats feels scummy to me but its possible i just dont know how to read him >.>

i'm around and will be around so you can ask me stuff if you want, but atp i have a feeling that you scumreading me just means that i am present in the game

[Datisi]

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,

with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

i am interested in the bolded

is it going to annoy you if I tell you that I don't want to explain yet?

it is very much going to annoy me, yes

but alright, keep your secrets

[Datisi]

i didn't like save the dragons's read on mena on pages 7/8, it felt more like trying to find something Weird to attack rather than actually having a read on something that makes someone scum

i can see and agree on ari's points in 177 but my read on fire is usually bad and i don't have too many townreads reads otherwise so i am not like, Convinced yet

datis is prob town
ari feels town as well.

HEAL: datis
HEAL: ari

idk about skitter,
i'm very bad about reading std
i dont have much exp with fire

mmm
this reminds me of like, lazy scum-mala i guess

the first thing that jumps out at me is the "i don't have much exp with fire" because i know mala's exp with me is one (1) game where we were both scum and i don't think the discussion about fire was so much about past experiences compared to discussion about other people that it warranted to mention specifically for him that she doesn't have experience

that sentence is a mess but it boils down to "explain pls"

190 does make me feel that ari is town, or rather it solidifies my read a bit more - it makes sense both with what happened in this game and in prior games and yeah

@ari why do u think fire gives me a townread and hedges a scumread on you
Kf anything i kinda feel like scum-him would do the opposite
(I am very prone to getting pocketed, yes yes yes)

correct me if i'm wrong, but this post kind of makes it sould like scum!fire would *have* to give one townread and one scumread in {aristeia, skitter}, so my q is why

and also like, why do you think fire would be likely to townread you here? i don't think he's familiar with your prone-ness to getting pocketed or whatever

200 from fire is a bit oof though

like i recall that fire said he wanted to wait for everyone to post before healing, but like, (1) mala had posted before (this point is pedantry tho so whatever) but (2) what about mala's 178 is something that makes you wanna heal her

done with page 9 and i'm tired and i'll be back in a bit

[Datisi]

std - backpedalling is a thing that exists but alright sure

fire - i think that's not a Good reason to townread someone since just because someone knows they need to play differently doesn't mean that they CAN do that, and this is a setup where one scum lowkey benefits from looking scummy if they're also distanced enough for later, but that's a theoretical discussion that's not very helpful right now

as for her "questioning" your read on her, 216 felt more like she was asking "what do you mean now that i've posted, i've posted before" rather than "why are you townreading me for that post", which feels like something scum might do if they feel like they should enter a conversation with you but they don't want to actually make you rethink your townread or open the gates for discussion there

[Datisi]

I think mena is probably town

why? i don't necessarily disagree, but the timing of this makes me feel like you're townreading him for things i don't really think are town!indicative

Not sure i agree with that logic tho, i think you would like playing scum with dats

i would like for nk15 to actually elaborate on what he was saying in 236 because there's a townier and a scummier universe for 236, but i'm not inclined to ask specific questions and lead him to the answer

ok i'm gonna say
i think mena is town for 255

the post itself is nothing really special that's outside of mena's scumrange, but it kinda makes me think that his trajectory on skitter, doesn't like, make a ton of sense if he's scum

because i know mena has that way of treating skitter that's "town until proven otherwise" and that would work okay for this game, especially as skitt was already starting to think that mena's town. so this kinda "actually i don't want to vote skitter into the coalition if there's other people" feels like, not a necessary stance to take? like, if he's scum and he doesn't want skitter inside the coalition, i think he knows this kind of theoretical approach is not very likely to make people actually remove skitter from the coalition. it does however, risk people disliking him for trying to argue something like that about a person they think is town because he's basically saying "i don't have a scumread but let's still not" which has an obvious +scum potential so why does he do it, exactly

like, this does make sense if the team is exactly mena/skitt but if that's the team, the game was lost at rand and this all is just a formality so i will not worry about it yet

[Datisi]

ok i'm up to date

HURT: all
HEAL: datisi
HEAL: aristeia
HEAL: skitter
HEAL: menalque

this is people i currently feel the best about. yes i know this coalition is kind of unlikely to go through. next order of business will be reviewing irrel and std because i feel like they are both people that most others think are town, but that i did not get any definitive townpings from but did get some scumpings from, so i will have to review. that will be done sometime before i go to sleep today because i gotta go at least pretend i'm working on uni stuff.

[Datisi]

I need to channel Shoshin

this is not a sentence that anyone should ever say

also can you acknowledge this pls:

what did you think was my point [in 45] anyway? that i arbitrarily decided to trash my case because you just so happened to be a replacement that game?

[Datisi]

i don't really care too much about that point specifically, but i'm seeing a lot of you treating my slot in potentially intentionally malicious ways (e.g. voting me because lol wagon but then not seeing much follow up on that that would make me think you were genuinely interested in sorting me by pushing me as opposed to pushing me because it's easy; writing out a post on why i'm scummy that had Weird points you cannot Properly And Simply Back Up once called out on it; admitting a post was townie but still bringing up a dats/mala team even though you said you don't quite think it's that but you still wanna mention it because haha what if)

like it feels like there's too many le funny coincidences that it veers into uncomfortable territory and without some sorta explanation or overview of your thoughts, it's going to be difficult for me to see you as town if you really are

[Datisi]

okay, gonna attempt to read through irrel and std and see if i like, have any epiphanies

my read through irrel iso is mostly that... it's more boring than what i'd expect from someone who seems to be a utr. like ok one thing is that the tone does read pretty pure. but also as far as i can tell he is an Experienced Player so there's only so far that the tonal aspect can give me good vibes from him.

as for his reads, i feel like there's a distinct lack of them and that those that are here are not exactly complex or that hard to fake. like, nk15 is townie because not trying to grab towncred. disagree but i can see that one. i can understand not wanting to give out exact tells he hinted about in 110 but my problem is that nowhere later in his iso is there some sorta continuation of that thought. the heal of skitter in 112 is ~mysterious~ (i.e. unexplained) only to then later go that he's getting paranoid of skitter and that she fell into his town pile because she said things that made sense (221, 225). there's no actual insight of why she was town in the first place or why he started getting paranoid, which to me usually feels like it's something he said for the sake of saying it

i was looking forward to getting into a Proper Conversation about 244 but nope later on it turns out it's not a post that he exactly very strongly believes in. obviously it's annoying to be "cased" like that and then shut down by "yeah actually i don't believe in that that much lol", but my actual problem with it is, what am i supposed to sort you on? you gave that one post that arguably gave insight of some of your thought process, to then basically go "nvm" on it.

and the hedging around "haha what if scum is dats/mala what if" and "i should be townreading ari+dats?? i dunno lol" and actively avoiding talking about why he thought of mala/dats when it was clear he was thinking *Something*, lest why bring it up multiple times

a lot of it feels like going through the motions for the sake of looking like he's thinking about things rather than actually thinking about things, especially since his latest coalition is "i sheep std" which makes it so he doesn't even have to stand strongly behind it

now, these ^^ things don't necessarily make someone scum. saying "you don't have content 48 hours into the game on page 15" is like, not Quite it. but it's illustrating a trend which makes me wary and which makes me very much not understand why it seems like everyone is townreading him

so like, @mena and whoever else has him as a strong townread, where am i wrong?

gonna look through std next

pedit: oh no, i'm townreading fire now???

[Datisi]

i have a headache now

[Datisi]

why the fuck did that post, i was trying to write "woo" next to it and then go onto the std iso but i accidentally clicked tab + "w" and the post posted??? oops

[Datisi]

ANYWAY std iso

101 i dislike because it's a v easy way to get onto what's popular at the time. also the explanations for the votes are kinda lackluster because the description of my 37 is very uncharitable and "skitter seems to be solving" is like, such a low bar to place for someone like skitter

then, his vote of mena for 145/146. maybe it's me who's used to mena's sense of humour and writing style and those posts seemed very normal to me. (in fact they were a bit of a positive sign after the first few posts which felt way too boring but anyway.) std immediately jumping onto that feels like scum who saw a townie acting wacky and decided to try to spin them into looking bad, i.e. performative, because the words that they wrote were level-zero-thinking bad. like, i usually find that town is more likely to critically think about *why* mena would write something that maybe looks weird while scum is more likely to try to make it seem bad because that is their job description. yes i'm aware std later said he misunderstood or changed his mind or whatever no i still don't like it.

the rest of his iso is also... kinda boring. like, a bunch of it is joking around or arguing theory with mena. like, afair i don't think std usually puts out a lot of content as town or rather not a lot of "serious, well structured content", but there's usually some sorta thought process i can follow and here i don't think i can follow a lot of it. not sure if i could explain the reason of one read he had.

like, again, page 15 48 hours but it's not a Great look.

i feel that both irrel and std are some sorta vibe townreads for the majority of the game, and either my vibe radar is broken or they're getting read for nonsense reasons and idk which and mafia is a fuck

[Datisi]

i have literally just quoted it in the other tab and opened ari's iso so yes yes i can but typing takes a nonzero amount of time

[Datisi]

datisi did you already explain why you townread ari and if so can you explain it better

it's a mix of her doing things that i don't think scum!her would be doing and actually seeming like she's solving.

i know i got shut down on saying this but i don't care, i don't think it's very logical for scum!her to approach skitter by asking her to be in a coalition with two people she deemed to have awkward interactions and have explicitly said she does not want in.

then hear reads just Make Sense to me. the read on mena and the callback on the previous coalition makes sense because mena was really townie in that game. the thought process laid out in 190 is something that i don't exactly recall ari do when she's scum, making plans is one thing but this is such a small thing that i don't know if scum!her bothers to fake it because like, scum!her doesn't need to fake such a thing in order to be persuasive and get her goal.

there's also... the ??? of townreading nk15 and declaring him as coalition material. like he pretty much said he was gonna not let ari into the coalition, and the read he said is bad, why would scum!her be hyping him up? like, it only makes sense if it's theatre, except it doesn't make sense if it's theatre because it's downright the stupidest theatre i'd seen.

and overall she seems to both be promoting the game moving forward while not actually hijacking the thread and trying to make it move in the direction she wants to. that seems like not a great plan for scum because you're opening the door for 7 townies and your buddy to have to discuss without much of our influence and considering ari is definitely in the top three of scum players on this playerlist, that overall seems. not a good plan. sure, she's getting into people's coalitions yes, but it doesn't feel like she tried to force her way in there and it's overall more risk doing it this way

obviously if she's scum and she has an ubertownread partner she doesn't have to care about this immediately but we solve with what we've got and yeah, it's more likely she's Just Town.

[Datisi]

-early undeserved mutual heals

-last time I played a full coalition game the team was [talkative and working to get into the coalition]+[lurking and aiming to stay out of it]

pick one

[Datisi]

pick one what

i don't think both of those points i quoted can exist at the same time, and if they can i want a bit of an elaboration on how they coexist

[Datisi]

hi irrel!!

why did you call me Irrel?

because typing out long names is a pain and i think i've seen someone somewhere shorten your name to "irrel" and it just sounded nice

like ok one thing is that the tone does read pretty pure.

i feel that both irrel and std are some sorta vibe townreads for the majority of the game, and either my vibe radar is broken or they're getting read for nonsense reasons

I don't know, these don't go together really which feels a little scum-motivated

have you considered reading the very next sentence in 343:

but also as far as i can tell he is an Experienced Player so there's only so far that the tonal aspect can give me good vibes from him.

[Datisi]

ari

why is ari scummy? i skimmed through your iso and i'm not sure i see it

[Datisi]

i think i'm at, like

i don't want mala or nk15 in the coalition - i feel like this setup, coupled with the extremely short deadline, can feel very demoralizing for scum if they don't get onto the train early and that makes sense from both of them. i think it's fairly unlikely they're both scum because games are almost never that easy but i would be somewhat surprised if they were both town. i guess nk15 is slightly townier than mala buh meh.

fire is kinda missing his usual fire (hehe) and while i did like the way we lowkey mindmelded on irrel yesterday night i'm wondering if that's enough. the posts i'm reading from him on the previous page feel like reads pulled out of random.org. like i don't get why he has them or that he actually believes in them or how he arrived at them and etc.

so i'm left with me/mena/skitt/ari and one of std or irrel? bleh maybe they're both town and i'm not giving enough credit to The Vibes but also time is short

why did i join this game

[Datisi]

ari and i planning to join games together? who would've seen that coming

skitt, did you read my Thoughts(tm) on irrel and std and like, where am i going wrong?

[Datisi]

hi friends i'm done with over 2/3rds of my biology seminar are y'all proud of me

did anyone think it was funny how yesterday nk15 said he was gonna Engage More with the game and respond to things or whatever it was and then earlier he dropped a very funny "i have nothing to add." line? i thought it was funny.

ok where are we

[Datisi]

I think you're scumreading irrel for being performative but I'm not sure if being performative is AI for him.

it's not exactly that i was scumreading him - like i definitely disliked the trajectory on me and thought it was +scum, don't get me wrong, but my overall idea was more that i don't get why he was such a popular townread for the majority on the game when i did not see *why*

[Datisi]

In 146 I was trying to make it clear that I was aware that 145 was not actually a compelling argument at all

But once I’d had the idea of the argument, I decided to post it anyway, because it would be funny to make a post that was trash arguing for why I’m town, only to immediately give a wink wink nudge nudge acknowledgement that it wasn’t that at all

ok how is this not performative

performative? maybe

but like, personally i say that as the first +town thing mena has done bc i'm used to his town!personality being like that. actually his earlier non-response to me asking if he was scum was really concerning so the fact that he started kinda, seeming like he doesn't hate his own life was a very good sign

but why is being performative scummy

[Datisi]

this is an example of an angleshooty townie post because I think he thinks at that moment in time maybe you heard someone refer to him as irrel in a scum pt and it struck him as weird you referred to him that way.

i got extremely annoyed at that question because it was obviously with an undertone of "datisi is scum and his scum partner called me irrel in the scum pt so that's why datisi called me irrel" when like. first of all i'm not scum. second of all i often shorten people's names and make up shortenings for people's names. third of all EVEN IF i were scum and my scumbuddy called him "irrel" in the scum pt scum!me would've NEVER made a mistake like that because i think about every single post i make and i don't make mistakes like that

but it's impossible to argue all of that out without other people going "idk dats you're being kinda defensive huehuehue being defensive is scummy"

but, if i do look at it from a more neutral perspective, it's probably +town, and the last time i've seen someone make that argument they were town so. i guess. i'm fine.

[Datisi]

thanks for 414, mena

i'm not overall sold because like, i don't put too much stock in people having trajectories like that because it's like. they're in the middle of amount of content on a different person. what i mean is, i feel like town is more likely to either (1) not say anything, or (2) actually write their thoughts out on why they're feeling what they're feeling. when someone's trajectory on another person is "skitt has done towny things" "i am getting paranoid of skitter" etc it kind of sits uncomfortably in the middle where there's like, nothing i can look back on the thread and say what or why they were thinking. and it's worrying because that part is much more difficult to fake than just saying "town on x, oop now i'm getting paranoid" etc

though i do like the reflection in 233 now that i've properly registered it so lol

[Datisi]

thanks for 414, mena

i'm not overall sold because like, i don't put too much stock in people having trajectories like that because it's like. they're in the middle of amount of content on a different person. what i mean is, i feel like town is more likely to either (1) not say anything, or (2) actually write their thoughts out on why they're feeling what they're feeling. when someone's trajectory on another person is "skitt has done towny things" "i am getting paranoid of skitter" etc it kind of sits uncomfortably in the middle where there's like, nothing i can look back on the thread and say what or why they were thinking. and it's worrying because that part is much more difficult to fake than just saying "town on x, oop now i'm getting paranoid" etc

though i do like the reflection in 233 now that i've properly registered it so lol

[Datisi]

yay shitty internet making me doublepost

I think you're scumreading irrel for being performative but I'm not sure if being performative is AI for him.

it's not exactly that i was scumreading him - like i definitely disliked the trajectory on me and thought it was +scum, don't get me wrong, but my overall idea was more that i don't get why he was such a popular townread for the majority on the game when i did not see *why*

Well, the last time this happened in a game we both were in irrelephant turned out to be scum. So if it isn't you and ari irrelephant is probably worth a look.

what are you talking about here?

[Datisi]

yay shitty internet making me doublepost

I think you're scumreading irrel for being performative but I'm not sure if being performative is AI for him.

it's not exactly that i was scumreading him - like i definitely disliked the trajectory on me and thought it was +scum, don't get me wrong, but my overall idea was more that i don't get why he was such a popular townread for the majority on the game when i did not see *why*

Well, the last time this happened in a game we both were in irrelephant turned out to be scum. So if it isn't you and ari irrelephant is probably worth a look.

what are you talking about here?

[Datisi]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=75861
it's a bit old though.

ah, "we" is you and irrel, for some reason i thought you were saying you and me and i was trying to remember which scum in anything upick had a similar progression to irrel here

definitely will not be reading through that but noted

got any feels on anyone else while i have you here?

[Datisi]

datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them

i am not sure i understand the difference between the two? (and also why are you healing me now?)

[Datisi]

Datisi [4]: Datisi, Aristeia, skitter30, Menalque

HEAL: Datisi, Aristeia, skitter30, Menalque, Irrelephant
i'm about to be gone for the night and i wanna have a full coalition before i go, i'm here as things stand at this point in time

overall i'm not Impressed the reads std has and his explanation of the mena interaction still feels not comfortable and i guess i'll be slightly sheeping mena and ari on irrel so here we are. also my schedule changed for tomorrow so i should be available more than i thought but i also will be away more than usual on friday this week so. aight cool.

[Datisi]

I promise that I am town but I think I might be able to exert more influence off-coalition if there is a failure and I really don't feel comfortable getting pushed for having a good scum game.

:<

from my experience playing and modding this setup, i feel like it's much more +ev for town to just add people who are town into the coalition rather than try to calculate an optimal coalition for solving the game for if/when it fails.

assuming me/skitt/mena/irrel will be 4/5, then it's a question who else to put in. say i can't put you in. mala and nk15 are out of the question. so it's between std and fire. looking at the vc last page, nobody is healing fire except for fire, and maybe i'm doing the same thing i did last game where town was just about to vote out scum!ceph and i tried to stop them because ??? because it would make sense for scum!fire to step on the gas if he's about to lose, but...

idk i didn't like the way std came around to a townread on me when i was starting to become a more popular townread while not engaging much with my points against him and bleh. if the majority of the game won't be changing their mind about possibly putting fire in rather than std (i say possibly because i haven't yet read fire's posts in depth to determine whether i actually wanna do that) then i'll vote ari out and vote std in because i don't have the time nor the energy to try to brute force things i myself am not sure about and that might be wrong.

but like, if there's a possibility that happens (i saw irrel talking about coming around to a townread on fire) and considering we'll get another 7 days after the coalition fails (assuming ari isn't lying about that because lol?) i think we can afford a day or two to just look at that possibility.

[Datisi]

im paranoid

[Datisi]

irrel, eli5 how the second paragraph in 644 follows from the first?

[Datisi]

If dragons and I are both town, then I think it's easy to see how fire's actions could be very scum-motivated. The push needs to be hard and fast to get one or both of us out of the coalition

But if dragons is scum, fire has a good read (that either I or std is scum) and I'm just mad at him for thinking it might be me and struggling to get over myself and see that it's dragons

i feel like this train of thought has multiple issues, but i don't think it makes you scum and the end result if it is probably you helping with pushing the coalition i want so

thank you carry on

[Datisi]

datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them

i am not sure i understand the difference between the two? (and also why are you healing me now?)

@mena while you're around can u acknowledge this pls

[Datisi]

it's cool i'm phoneposting from class rn anyway (that has been going for almost three hours now and i am about to mcfucking lose it)

thanks for response, may ask you for elaboration if/when The Paranoia starts setting in

[Datisi]

the only reason i included the "if" was because there is A Chance it doesn't set in by the time we're forced to form a coalition and then we win via coalition

[Datisi]

datisi what do you think of fire's scumcase of me

i don't

a few parts of his posting gave me enough pause that i was willing to consider putting him into the coalition, if ari is being agreed on being left out

but i'd be lying if i said i actually did do my due diligence on it, mostly because i'm lazy and if nobody else wants to even consider putting him in then it's wasted effort and i don't like wasted effort

[Datisi]

Who’s scum outside of nk15/mala? Since we can’t just assume it’s them

add fire and std to the poe, assuming i'm not wrong on my townreads. (which, to be fair, is not a smart assumption to make most of the time, but y'know.)

why do you ask? i feel like i've been pretty open with who i want in the coalition currently.

[Datisi]

take a shot every time nk15 ignores a question he was asked

[Datisi]

ari how are you still certain enough nk15 is town that you wanna coalition him?

[Datisi]

sorry friends, not actually feeling mafia tonight. am free basically the whole day tomorrow, will be around then. aight cool cheers.

[Datisi]

I do find it somewhat funny if Datisi is playing one of his best scumgames but just happens to be paired with a partner that gets joy out of derptunneling his partner for fun and trolling them.

Also it would be somewhat of a tragedy I would also feel quite bad for him <3

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86932

this is the iso of Peta where he breaks down how he felt NK15 played as scum:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

i'm aware of that game. that's why i said that nk15's play is very within his scum meta (which he agreed on lol). if i opened my role pm and i saw "ur scum w nk15", the first thing i'd do is go into the scum pt and lay out a plan on what exactly is he going to post because uh yeah. and if i saw him pulling that same shit again, i'd just start prodging and waiting for town to form a winning coalition so i can get out. anyway.

i was gonna write another paragraph about nk15's play here and why it doesn't make sense from town but 859 sums it up well.

[Datisi]

I'm not actually that sure if I am actually reading for his alignment rather than trying to find excuses to call him town :<

:<

I would give it almost no weight at all tbh

indeed
i do find your scum-nk15 -> dats convincing tho

if we flip nk15 at some point and he flips red and y'all have

the audacity

to come after me i will mald so fucking hard

[Datisi]

I'm kinda sus of mala's sr of ari tbh

^^^

up to here right now, and it feels like mala saw that a pure coalition is about to form so she's doing a hail mary of "leave out these 3 people are most have agreed should be in the coalition because *radio static*"

also this:

so id at least want to place myself over one of them because I KNOW i'm town via my own role pm via mod (unless the mod is just a jester)
so why would i leave myself out to possibly risk interchanging a mafia in it
naaaaaaaaathanks

is kinda funny because

while i get the "i'm not moving myself out of the coalition" mindset for townies, there's also the fact that if you have been prodging for the whole game and now drop in with takes that attack the current consensus and don't make sense, then it kind of makes sense that you're not getting in unless you significantly step on the gas in terms of towniness

and the fact that mala can probably sense that she's not doing that but there's still the "i want in bc i am town bc mod said so lol" is a sign of a non-existent self-awareness which i think makes much more sense from panicking scum than from town about to be left out

[Datisi]

like idk if i'm town in mala's position and i see a coalition forming that i think is capital b Bad i probably try to spend the little time we have until it convincing people why it's bad not doing *this*

[Datisi]

also like, not even mentioning the fact that mala's entrance read on me/ari was that we're town/town at a time when it was kinda popular to say our interactions are awkward

but now that we're kind of consensus townreads our interactions are pockety

where's the path from point a to point b

if scum really is mala and nk15 i am going to be so disappointed

[Datisi]

happy birthday dear <3

thank you <3

[Datisi]

reading skitt's iso backwards and pretending i'm doing something useful

i asked mod and she said deadline is just for the coalition portion so we can take the full 7 days bless.

Oh yay

HURT: dats

skitt, anything change for you since this? who's your current preferred 5th if the 4 are unchanged?

[Datisi]

I actually like this post by NK.
It actually lines up with how I'm feeling right now about this gamestate. Other than I disagree with how high std & mena are
although, i usually go for a townbloc rather than a scum bloc until late game w/ a scum flip and then i scumhunt hardcore for interactions/associates

@relly this is the one that felt unaligneed to me

If she knows she can’t get in to the coalition she needs to prop him up

yeah, that was my thought upon reading it too

it did occur to me that scum!mala can leave false trails (like she did in a recent game where we were both scum), but i kinda realized i don't really know how to tell between "scum!mala is panicking because both her and her buddy are about to be left out" and "scum!mala is doing distancing from a townread partner"

also thanks

[Datisi]

god this is so fucking stupid

whichever iso i open i feel like i *could* make a scumcase if, like, i really needed to make one, but my mind just keeps going back to "nk15 and mala are scumfucks tho right" and no matter what i think about i can't justify scumreading someone over the two of them even if it's rarely that easy and afchgvuhiCf this game

[Datisi]

maybe it was just the way in which he is failing to answer mena's question lol

doesn't seem very partner-y, but apparently nk is not great at working together anyway

i have a question i want to ask mena but i am 99.5% sure his answer is going to be "i don't want to answer that now, ask me later" so i am making a reminder for myself

[Datisi]

gth solve is fire/mala with fire trying to get in and mala trying (or at least willing) to stay out

im nervous because i feel like i could be wrong about that but i would probably take any coalition without them at this point (probably not nk15 tho)

std, is this still up to date?

[Datisi]

i think only one of fire/mala is scum at this point

the other in nk15/ari? (going off your current coalition.) any thoughts on ari other than 695?

[Datisi]

i dunno i'm like

i wanna put ari in the coalition because i think she's town and if she's scum then the game is in a fucked up state anyway and if she's town the odds of the coalition being Good increase

and i just remembered her talking about not wanting to be in the coalition and i'm not sure if that went anywhere and i hope it did not

[Datisi]

I log in and it's kind of like I realize I know nothing.

hi ari <3

would you like to be in the coalition? i'll be super sad if you say you don't, picking a coalition with you in it is difficult enough already :<

[Datisi]

thank you std :>

i hope ari won't be too mad at you

[Datisi]

okay i guess ari isn't coming back right now

this is one of those times where i'm genuinely not sure if i'm playing the same game as someone else because i read irrel's towncase on std in 940 along with his iso open in another tab and it's just like. i don't get it. a decent amount of points are mindmelds (which obviously i won't get) and then there's points on e.g. 179>182, 300/301, 432, where i'm just like, what's a real feeling there? how is that earnestly sorting mena? *what* is so good about that post?

like i don't think irrel is scum, actually i really liked the logic 946 went though and how it ended with a heal on fire. but i'm also thinking back to irrel describing my playstyle as "unwritten thoughts don't exist" and thonking because i when i read 940 i feel like i'm missing things

[Datisi]

no, no, i got that, that's what i'm saying. i feel like you're seeing some sorta deep thought process behind std's posts and i'm like "this looks like a puddle to me" so i'm thinking if it's me who's wrong or the kids who's wrong

pedit: @irrel

[Datisi]

would you like to be in the coalition? i'll be super sad if you say you don't, picking a coalition with you in it is difficult enough already :<

You know I want to be with you dear <3

<3
what would be your current preferred coalition?

[Datisi]

does anyone have a strong read on menalque and if so can they explain it

i don't have a "strong" read but

i think my point for him being town in 317 is still pretty decent

also i'm skimming over his iso and he just... vibes town? i guess this will be p difficult to explain when my experience with him is in ballpark of 20 games, but i'd usually get a vibe when he's being actively manipulative and trying to get things his way, and i just don't get that feeling right now

like i'd imagine if he's scum here he'd be acting with a bit more force to him, which is kind of similar to my ari read but it still applies

i can probably point out specific posts if needed but

[Datisi]

you told me you were super sure

does this sound like something i would ever say?

also you're like, one of the people that i currently feel the surest on being town and i know you are generally better than me at reading people so i was hoping i could see your preference for a coalition and work with you there

[Datisi]

I may have just gotten the warm and fuzzy feeling in his inital i'm going to townping her and I like how he didn't care to give his POV.

so, you went from townpinging on me, to... thinking i might be scum because me and ari townread each other and because YOU are prone to getting pocketed?

how is me/ari townread different than any other townread between two players in the game?

[Datisi]

Town summary of std:
-having fun coalitioning (I think scum kinda dread it)
-seemingly not manipulating his way into the coalition, even when three people scumread him
-reads I agreed with
-townreading lots of townies, dangerous play for scum imo

thanks, irrel. i still don't think he's townier than, say, skitter, but depending on when/if my coalition becomes unviable, i'll go over his iso again. probably.

[Datisi]

I have a lot of thoughts about Dats and I'm not sure how helpful it will be for you to read them but I can write them down if you want me to.

i would want to read these but it would be for purely selfish reasons that have nothing to do with solving the game :>

[Datisi]

then i would change your mind

[Datisi]

And if ur not confident in dats either idk if i want to pit him in, but then it's hard for me to find a confident fifth

is there anything i can do to make you sorting me easier? i know the answer is probably "no", but still.

[Datisi]

What's your ideal coalition rn?
Do u want ari in it?
Are you ok with me/mena/irrel/std?

me/you/mena/ari/irrel
yes
no

i mean i vaguely get what irrel was saying about std being townie but the points did not register in my brain as "valid" and they won't until i sit down and reread his iso with those things in mind

ngl i was hoping mena was gonna be more around because i wanted to talk to him about it since he's got a similar read than i do but

[Datisi]

he probably? is viable, since i feel like everyone townreads him other than me mena and maybe mala

also expected but don't plan on that

pedit: about 85% i think?

[Datisi]

sorry was just exiting the bus

i think those 5 are town but i am not sure. skitter is towny but, as mena would say, Not Outside Scumrange. irrel feels townie but as i don't have any experience with him it's impossible not to wonder what if wrt a good player who i don't have any prior experience with - if i'm wrong i feel like it's probably here somewhere

you and mena feel townie to me and i am actively shoving down any paranoia for the time being

[Datisi]

I guess 85% will have to do >_>

i wish i could be More Sure but with 2 players who are Very Good At Scum and 2 players who are actively Not Playing, it's difficult to be sure :<

[Datisi]

you do understand if this coalition fails skitter is going to eat you right?

if the coalition fails and she wants to do that, she's gonna have to drag me to that yeetotine kicking and screaming so good luck with that i guess

[Datisi]

i don't make false promises, ari :<

i'm not 100% on it and i couldn't stand to lie to you

[Datisi]

Datisi who’s std’s partner if you’re not so sure he’s town?

*potential partner, not asking for a scumcase, etc

spending about 15 seconds on it, i'd say mala because the "hey, std that all of you townread is Scum, Actually" into "actually nvm i guess he's maybe town lol idk" is weird and has a clear scum motive if she's scum with std for distancing then panicking that he might not even get into the coalition

i'm awful at d1 preflip, especially for people that i don't even have a Strong Scumread on

[Datisi]

that's understandable, but i don't think i've seen a lot of interaction that made me think "wow, std is probably not scum with these many players"

which like, i wish i could reliably point out so many interactions that are Not SvS but uh i am not that good

[Datisi]

Can you quickly browse his ISO with my towncase summary in mind? Time’s running out thank u

uuuuuugh i guess i can i wish i wasn't so sleep deprived yesterday

+1 to saying that mena is town and nothing has changed my opinion since yesterday

i could write stuff about it but i wish there was a way to transfer my experience with mena to you to know why i think he's town because i feel like i'm gonna sound like a tinfoily nut if i try to explain it otherwise

[Datisi]

i wasn't so sleep deprived yesterday

this sentence makes no sense you know what i mean

in other news i think 1077 is a townie post for an extremely stupid reason

[Datisi]

have you tried reading me yourself

[Datisi]

i'm gonna open the std iso and go through it and try to see what irrel sees and whatever else

106 is a post. i was annoyed at this post at the time because i felt like that is very much not what i said to aristeia. but in retrospect i can see why my post could be regarded as bad and i guess people sometimes exaggerate and sure.

ok gonna go check if std was faking joy in that game where he was my traitor (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go)

ok i read through the first ~60 posts these are the only "jokey" "having fun" posts i could find:

Spoiler:

Save the Dragons is also town.

woo hoo!

holy crap i thought i posted more in this game 22 posts wow i'm probably scum

not sure how much playing of mafia since 2008 has helped him, like come on, I was a literal child back then

i feel so old now

if i had a dollar for every nonsense argument for why i'm scum that has been made this game, i'd have enough money to get a therapist to get me unaddicted from mafia

datisi is scum because mercury is in retrograde

(1) there are genuinely less than i remember, and (2) "i'm probably scum" and "datisi is scum because zodiac" are probably??? crumbs that i fucking missed because i was too tunnelled on the idea that ari is my traitor because i was not able to believe my shitty scumplay managed to actually fool her but uh anyways

point takes he does seem much more relaxed this game

ok i kinda forgot to write things during reading but i'm at 919 right now and it's making me think that std might? be town because i'm weak for self-town-cases like that one

especially after i just read through a part of his scum iso and feeling like the vibes are different

also i'm not sure why scum!std keeps pestering malakittens to give her read of him and maybe change her mind when like, not like she is actually going to influence anyone

ok i need to take a break my attention span is running out

i guess the main thing that is changing my mind here is that his vibes do feel really different than they did in the scumgame i linked? like, i know one game does not meta make and that playying differently than one scumgame =/= being town, but that + the fact he wrote a kinda self meta case makes me wanna at least reconsider

i don't love the fact i don't feel much of like, idk cases and pushing but maybe i'm looking for something that won't exist either way and i'm gonna take a breather, see if i have any games of experience with town!std that would let me know if these vibes are Normal or Concerning, then i'm gonna like, walk through the mena iso again and see if i actually feel like i can put together a decent enough towncase in time

this is kind of depressing though because either i'm right on nk/mala/fire being 2/3 or i'm starting to / am townreading scum somewhere and i don't wanna do that

[Datisi]

but he seems engaged and is not trying to take control of the thread in a way that seems like he's trying to solve and justify his reads. i don't think he was trying to get into the coalition in a way that seems town, not in a way that seems like scum hiding to let their partner get in

what does this part mean?

[Datisi]

either my reading comprehension has gone down the toilet or you have a few extra negatives in those sentences, but aight thanks noted

[Datisi]

i had just sat down to write a probably-noncoherent case on why i think mena is town but i don't actually want to be making decisions because decisions are scary so idk lole

[Datisi]

I’m happy with my final coalition, I think

i don't think we're getting to your coalition bc i don't think people are gonna vote fire in so uhhh can you like not have your vote rot away there

[Datisi]

i think the two current competing coalitions are dats/mena/skitt/irrel/ari and skitt/ari/dats/irrel/std

i'm not actually sure i haven't been following the votes carefully i don't work well under pressure ahhhh enjoy the holiday tho!!

[Datisi]

ok so i read through mena's iso while i was eating dinner and i still think he's town and god help me idk how to explain it

145 and 146 are very reminiscent of the ways mena used to joke with me and prob others in some of our older games. i started off this game thinking he's scum because he was feeling flat and 142 felt like he was dying inside and yeah. idk if scum!him ever got to being able to joke with me in a way that doesn't make Something feel off. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84455 the first posts of this page are like an example of what i mean ig

also, in retrospect, 150 is *weird* to make if he's scum because like, it's decently possible he would have to play hard at some point, and he would have an ample opportunity to be townread because me and skitt and whoever else would go "wow mena is playing differently than he did in that other game where i last saw him as scum" and instead he calls attention to it why. idk.

ok i actually went to reread his iso from his last scumgame and https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

i feel like it's different than here. first order of business is his posts towards me. it's like. THIS is the extend of joking around he does with me:

Spoiler:

Also bc you’re so obvscum I felt it didn’t need saying really

this game is a circus

VOTE: mena

and that's throughout the whole game. maybe a month or so he was subbed in. like his vibes were way off.

also his "i don't wanna heal skitt/ari" business and not voting to form a coalition until he's not ready for one reminds me of him like. wanting the best for the gamestate and have things develop organically. hold on i remember a game where he said that (he was in a hydra with skitt but this was him posting):

Spoiler:

Subject: Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

infinity/scipio/datisi/pp/bridgeburners can be the townblock for today (ourselves included)

-seCret

STOP

-QB

Subject: Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

i'd still like to know what this was/is about.

I thought it was fairly well known that I am against explicit discussion of townblocs/forming townblocs in almost a direct inverse proportion to how much I like actually having them

I guess apparently not so let me be clear: I am against explicit discussion of townblocs/forming townblocs in direct inverse proportion to how much I like having townblocs

-QB

like town!mena wants to solve the game and he wants a solveable game. there's like, you can feel the cogs turning in his head when he's making posts like these because he's thinking of the future and what's gonna make the game readable. compare that to the scum iso i posted, there is nothing that makes him see the bigger picture. it's just empty air going from post to post (edited to add later on: 651 also fits that picture. scum!mena would benefit from there being paranoia about the coalition bc there's a chance town is derpy enough to completely fail to make one and because it gives him easier avenues to attack later on and and i also remember him saying spewing chaos is sometimes good as scum in micro 892 when we were scumbuddies and like idk. 651 feels townie in the same vein the others here do)

and here it's like, his arguing about skitt/ari not only provides the game being more sortable to him (or like, at least he believes it will be more sortable to him) but there's also the fact that he probably won't look great off of it to anyone other than maybe me and skitter and i'm not sure if that's worth the effort

maybe he's being extremely bigbrain by having me townread him for it and defend him but again, looking at that prior scum!iso i don't feel it chief

also compare the towncase he did in 414 to a towncase he did in the scumgame: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13206702
it just feels like in the first example he's using like actual progressions to show where someone is town while in the other it's like... "well you didn't attack me and also you're attacking this loud person so you're town lol"

also if we're comparing postcounts there he posted ~60 times in 20 days while here it's been ~80 in 6 - i know postcount isn't much and that scum!mena can sometimes spam but i feel like it's A Point

also the thing on ari/fire around 674 - nowhere in his scum iso do i see any "if x then y" posts even remotely similar to this which even more makes me think that that's like, and actual thought he has

[Datisi]

i'm sorry if that post is a mess, i'm really tired and i got interrupted multiple times while writing it and anfnoerifwek

like there is A Chance i am fucking it up here by just going off of mena's latest scumgame which was not quite... the pinnacle of his career, but i also feel like there's not much point going by his older scumgames when it's really apparent he's not tryharding to the same level he was before and it's a question mark if he's even capable of it currently

but i feel like either he's accidentally hit the things he somehow knew i used to viberead him on or he's having an extremely good performance by planning all of that and just idk i think he's town.

[Datisi]

:|

when i saw the nk15 lolhammer yesterday evening, i thought he was either scum surrendering or scum desperate to lock this coalition in

however, thinking now, **assuming nk15 is scum**:

i'm not his partner because i'm twon :3

ari being his partner doesn't actually make... a ton of sense. like i know he loves to tunnel his buddies or whatever but that distancing was so poorly done that i don't think they get anything out of it. and considering a Decent amount of people are thinking ari Might be scum, him adding to that is actually increasng the chance she flips today very much and i really don't think nk15 ever endgames here after that. you *could* argue he's scum that thinks he can endgame and he's lowkey playing against wincon and it's not impossible. BUT in that world, i don't think partner!ari brings up that game with scum!nk. i don't think she knows i know of that game and i don't think anyone else from this game played there (i did check so unless someone was alting that i don't know of it)... so i really don't think ari in ari/nk15 world brings it up.

so his partner would have to be in mena/skitt/irrel - and i'm not sure that desperate hammer makes sense as a "desperate hammer" if he's scum with any of them. like, it would make the most sense if he's with mena as it was kiiiinda looking like mena might not make it into the coalition. but the tide was turning and time was running out and i feel like it was pretty obvious that coalition is getting hammered like 99/100 times. so i don't think nk15 had to like, secure a bad coalition lest a good one shows up.

i guess this is a longer was to get to 1167. i don't think this is actually townie behaviour for nk15, not by a long shot, but i also really don't think it's a lockscum one, as much as i had hoped.

[Datisi]

Just wanna say that this is lowkey frustrating given that that was my like 3rd option and i didnt want ari/dats in it at all, and if we had to have them

i wanted std instead of mena

Ari/dats -> irrel ->

mena

for me

skitt, how do these two posts fit together?

[Datisi]

i think the idea that ari decided to have me in the coalition as the first misflip is kind of... not realistic in any possible scenario. i think the only people that have explicitly said they townread ari over me are Maybe Skitter and Maybe Irrel - i think most others had us as equal or me above her. and that is ignoring the fact that (1) god help you if you wanna try misflipping town!me, (2) ari was townreading me almost the whole day and had just made a post on why she thinks i'm town. either she can't push me herself or has to have some really really awkward backpedaling on why i'm scum. like, in so many cases, she's the one that goes down, not me.

also ari's posts right now feel like she is Genuinely Solving by vibe but maybe that's a bad metric to use. i need to reread the skitt/ari interactions of who ~said what and who asked whom to sheep~ them to be able to consciously digest those arguments well because i don't want to be working from memory

but also i've been staring at this forum for a few hours now and i need a break and i'll get things done through today and tomorrow, cool? cool.

[Datisi]

i don't think the meta argument that this is not his scum game is a very good one, the game linked doesn't have a ton of posts from him and i don't think it's outside the play other than he lurked i guess but he kinda lurked a little here too

i don't think you actually read the post i made on menalque if the only thing you got from it is "well he's not lurking in this game and he lurked in a scumgame so he's town"

also skitt when you're back i do want a kind of an elaboration on 1189 - how do you see the gamestate at the moment of the coalition forming that you think it's viable for ari to do this? like i said in 1201 why i don't really think it's realistic for ari to try to do that but i want to hear your pov i guess

[Datisi]

Like i guess i dont understand your point around the difference between 1 and 2 scum being in. Isnt 2 scum being in better?

why were you thinking it's better for scum to have 2 in rather than 1?

[Datisi]

Ugh.

Maybe I’m coming around to a ari and dat town again

who do you think is scum in the coalition then?

[Datisi]

(1) have you read my towncase on him (2) do you have reasonings for any of those reads

[Datisi]

okay, i reskimmed posts from ari/skitter from page 24 onwards, and i feel like i have Things that i want to say, but also i want skitter to appear first and answer the things that have been asked

[Datisi]

re 1210:

- i'm trying to say 145 and 146 are vibing in a mena!town way that i'm not sure scum!mena would successfully replicate at this point in time

- that's a part of my case? he's posting more here than he did there? i'm saying it's not the only part of my case and your post earlier made it seem like it was

- i feel like you don't understand my point on why "i don't wanna heal skitt/ari" is a townie thought - because it's planning for the future in the game. town!mena would try to have the game solveable at some point, scum!mena probably wouldn't because he did not do that last game as scum and it would require substantially more effort to fake here. and because he knows that later in the game, he will have to circle back on analysing how the fact that the game turned out a certain way influenced his read on those players and that's something that he simply did not even attempt to do as scum.

- i mean show me one post in his scumgame where he said anything that would make it feel like he was solving the game as a whole. he has a lot of posts and questions towards singular players, yes. but he's not looking at the game in a holistic way as scum. he's done that here.

like the extremely annoying thing here is that you can go "well lol i don't see it sorry i don't do meta idk vibes don't feel off to me" and like

i'm annoyed now

[Datisi]

i still think the entrance was potential performative scum entrance but i dunno about other stuff

have you looked at "the other stuff" and what do you think about it

[Datisi]

but i still don't believe you could come to a townread on irrelephant and a scumread on me when we've had similar thoughts in the game similar stances on people and i think a similar progression of thought

i don't really care about having you "similar thoughts" on the game as someone else. it's not about What Thoughts a person has it's How they have those thoughts. like if i have to go through both your isos and explain why irrel's townier than you because he pushed the game forward and his thought processes seem more real and more nuanced to me, i will, but i really don't think that's important right now as he is in the coalition and you aren't.

who is scum in the coalition and why?

[Datisi]

skimming [nk15's] game in that anon game

oh god i actually did mention i knew of that game.

i guess it's not really important since if ari/nk15, then either ari dies first or we Just Lose, but huh. i forgot about bringing it up.

[Datisi]

i think that it's menalque for reasons i've already outlined

where did you outline it other than here:

menalque suspects me for reasons that in my opinion are weird or NAI so i don't know it's hard for me to ignore that but i should probably get over it like i said and see what else this slot contains. i still think the entrance was potential performative scum entrance but i dunno about other stuff

idk why you think i can be his partner because why would i do a towncase i did other than ~wifom reasons~ if one of us flips which is 99/100 not a good reason to do things like that

[Datisi]

mostly want to talk to datisi about it cause it felt like he had similar thoughts at first and then ended up at a townread somehow and im not sure why exactly

hi did you call for me

as the game was progressing, i felt more and more that my reasons for scumreading irrel were personal nonsense rather than actual good reasons and that if i tried to look at it from a neutral perspective, i could feel he actually was moving the game forward and being active in trying to solve it. like i plan to at least double check my work there this day phase but yeah not my first choice within the coalition i guess?

if you want me to look at something specific or just wanna jam for a bit, i should be around for an hour or so before i go to bed

[Datisi]

at this moment in time it's skitter, but i want to talk to her first

[Datisi]

idk i still think 427 is really scummy and im still surprised you don't, just the way he was kind of dodging your points and calling you town for making them instead is ew to me

ehhh, i don't know. like, i get your point on that that post does feel kind of odd. like i can definitely feel like that post is more interested in how he's being read for things he did rather than what i actually think (i don't know how to word that better but it makes sense in my head dammit)

but i'm also not really sure that a Scummy thing to do since i can understand town doing something like that because town too does have motivation to get into the coalition

did you check if he does this in other games by any chance? i see you said you were going to

[Datisi]

hmm

that line from scum!irrel with no other scum in the coalition would only make sense if he was decently sure nobody would actually follow him on it. idk it lowkey feels like "vote me out today vote x out tomorrow" kinda thing if it's from scum - depending how hard he was being townread by everyone at that point... i'll think about it if/when i need to

[Datisi]

Dats am I hopeless pocketed by you rn?

obviously <3

[Datisi]

only to the extent where i felt he was not out of his scumrange and that he does like to effort and be in control of things as scum, i didn't like do an in depth comparison between town and scum looking for tells

well that's just stellar. i should probably reassess my read on him while keeping in mind that i can't write things off as townie because "scum probably doesn't effort this much" or for similar reasons like that

and yeah, that's what i mean. i don't remember the exact feels of the gamestate throughout every moment, but i do feel like he was consistently townread by almost everyone in the game and that a "just leave me out lol" wouldn't really be likely to happen, especially considering we were basically picking from 7 out of 9 anyway

[Datisi]

good morning to everyone except my neighbour who decided to loudly mow the lawn right underneath my window at early morning hours of a sunday

[Datisi]

Datisi can you stop whiteknighting menalque and make him play his own game? thank u

i mean i can but like. that towncase i made is one of the most efforty cases i've done on someone and i do not like it when i feel like my points are being handwaved away simply because i'm not able to explain them properly or because people don't actually care to get it right so

Not terribly useful but just something cute I wanted to share. <3

this is very cute thank you for sharing <3 though i think i am very rarely the least-drunk friend in a bar :>

At eod tho, again, my point goes back to u wanting dats/yourself over std, and that's where my suspicions are stemming from, as that's the point if difference in my mind, and nof really what i wanted, and i very strongly consider him town

this is something that i wanna circle back to later but the tl;dr is that i went though skitt/ari interactions and there were a lot of posts from skitter where skitter was very much open to the idea of ari being in a coalition, or like slowly nudging in that direction

so the immediate pushback on d2 how this is not what skitter wanted and she is so frustrated that this isn't the coalition she wanted when she pretty much spent more time hinting at being fine with ari being in the coalition and saying how she's not really pushing her own coalition or not playing that hard feels a bit Off

Is it bad that i'm kinda rekindling nk15/dats here?

yes
(1) why do i bring up the game where he loltunneled his own partners first
(2) this universe would be 100x easier to win if i don't shut down the nk15 townreads in the beginning but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself; as opposed to getting myself into the coalition and banking on winning by flipping 3 out of skitt/irrel/mena/ari before myself
(3) i don't have the wim to play like this with a deadbeat partner who's doing nothing but tunnelling me in thread
(4) i'm not scum

These are kinda like two different things in my mind, but i will try to explain
My point of failure for the coalition is like ari/dats
I dont think the issue was mena being in there, but given ari/dats i had a stronger townread on std and would have preferred him over mena
You can kinda add an arrow after mena pointing to std in the second quote to explain my read hierarchy

so basically what you're saying is: you townread std over all of the current coalition members (excluding yourself)?

[Datisi]

also skitt when you're back i do want a kind of an elaboration on 1189 - how do you see the gamestate at the moment of the coalition forming that you think it's viable for ari to do this? like i said in 1201 why i don't really think it's realistic for ari to try to do that but i want to hear your pov i guess

I think i answered but lmk if u wanf something else

not quite, you just gave up on the idea you were proposing earlier which was puzzling to me - read my first paragraph in 1201. from my pov, it feels like if scum!ari attempted to do what you were describing earlier, flip me first, it would end up Very Badly for her because that's not where the consensus is and she knows how screamy i get when i'm being pushed for bullshit and also she has set zero foundation for actually doing that.

like i was asking how did you think she was gonna accomplish that / why did you think it was a viable path for scum!her to do that

[Datisi]

i was gonna ask fire what does he think scum!skitter would be doing after the progressions she had on d1, but i see ari already asked that >.>

anyway when you're around, skitter, let's jam because i feel like the only reasons you suspect me are (1) awkward interaction with ari back on like page 0.5 (2) ~*paranoia*~ and like. those are not really good reasons.

[Datisi]

Mend?

He was kinda my idk if I want to switch him in or out player

(1) have you read my towncase on him (2) do you have reasonings for any of those reads

VOTE: mena

Why do u think mena?

ok i'm gonna channel my inner dkkoba for a second:

malakittens explain the scumread on menalque challenge (120% impossible) (gone wrong) (not clickbait) (not sponsored)

[Datisi]

yes
(1) why do i bring up the game where he loltunneled his own partners first
(2) this universe would be 100x easier to win if i don't shut down the nk15 townreads in the beginning but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself; as opposed to getting myself into the coalition and banking on winning by flipping 3 out of skitt/irrel/mena/ari before myself
(3) i don't have the wim to play like this with a deadbeat partner who's doing nothing but tunnelling me in thread
(4) i'm not scum

1. Dont know, but iirc didnt ari bring it up already?
2. Uhhhhj not sure that( would actually be an easier gameplan / doable? Like you can say that's what you would have done but its sufficiently different from how tue day actually played out that i'm not sure you could have made the day happen that way ...
3. I mean ok fair
4. Idk that, and it seems a reasonable explanation for nk15's actions
5. Your post explaining why you didnt scumread nk15 for the hammer gave me the creeps

(1) ari first brought it up in 725. i first brought it up in 289.
(2) i'm not saying it would be 100% doable but it would be worth a shot enough for me to keep my mouth shut about nk15 while y'all are thinking he's town because "isn't grabbing towncred"
(5) if the scumteam is me/nk, then nk is never getting flipped before me. so you'll only be looking for nk AFTER i'm confirmed to flip red. and i make that post explaining why nk is not lockscum when he's never getting voted before me because ???

[Datisi]

I made it *very* clear that i didn't want ari in, and that i only ultimately voted her as a compromise so that i'd be voting for something semi- viable at deadline.

i mean yes you made it very clear you did not want ari in, but you also kept hinting that you could i guess maybe vote there and you did approximately nothing to push std into a coalition so...

i have to pretend to be a contributing member to society for a bit but i'll write out a bigger post later today

[Datisi]

i am trying to make art but the fact that this game exists is giving me anxiety so i will instead try to write out what i was planning to write earlier

[Datisi]

attempting to analyze skitter's coalition preferences and pushes, starting from page 24:

page 24 is the first time ari offers to sheep skitter. 591 is skitt having a preference of skitt/dats/irrel/std/mena, idk who to go after if that fails. then we figure out the deadline is not as short, ok cool there's more time.

but yeah i guess i'll go through the thought experiment:

ari agreeing to be left out of a coalition of me/irrel/mena/std/dats
means it doesn't make sense for her to be scum with fire/mala/nk15

tbh i don't see anything impossible for ari + any of irrel/mena/std/dats

this is the next relevant post in the skitt/ari discussion - where skitter says it doesn't make sense for ari to be scum with a "lower-rated" player but does with a "higher-rated" player (you know what i mean)

Probably still you but apparently i relish paranoia and indecision
I.e. i'm still not confident on a 5th yet, if i had to pick one would probably be you but still not confident enuf to settle on that if that makes sense

I will probably get over this closer to deadline

next relevant post - skitter says she still prefers skitt/dats/irrel/std/mena, with me being lowest confidence

next relevant post...

i think if ari is scum she's likely scum with someone who is already in, and so there is very little utility to leaving her out

... honestly this is a p good point

Tbh the more I think abt it from this pov i'm not entirelu opposed to putting ari in
(On the condition that if it fails and she doesnt, like, solve the game she gets flipped before elo)

is skitter saying how fire has a point in his analysis and basically saying she could maybe sorta put ari into the coalition.

Mala do u have any response to my posts towards u on the prior page?

I'm leaning towards me/mena/irrel/std + one of ari/dats/fire rn

again, this is like, not showing a huge preference on which person gets added as the 5th.

And then i guess i kinda vibe with fire's point that if ari is scum its probably with someone in the consensus coalition anyways, so i'm no longer entirely opposed

I guess i dont object to putting ari in but i'd want her to go in with dats, and i want the condition to be that if its elo and she hasnt found all the scum, she gets flipped
Otherwise i probably want dats in

i cut this post a bit but the important part is that skitter was decently fine with ari being in a coalition, mostly due to fire's arguments

I think if you want to be the leader here you should put the reads you feel confident in.

I have a lot of thoughts about Dats and I'm not sure how helpful it will be for you to read them but I can write them down if you want me to.

I'm not confident I can find scum!him.

I mean i dont think i indicated i wanted to be a leader here at all >.> my reads arent confident enuf , and its not like i'm strongly pushing a given coalition either

And if ur not confident in dats either idk if i want to pit him in, but then it's hard for me to find a confident fifth

this is the next relevant post, where ari is nudging skitter to be a leader, and she openly says that she doesn't want to be the leader, she's not feeling confident enough, she's not strongly pushing, etc

1038 is a hmm post to me because i felt like std was viable at the time and the fact that she was going "is std viable? no? i guess i can remove him..." is Concerning

I think he knows I'm very hard to mis-eliminate so putting me into a coalition really is limiting his own mislim opportunities and making it harder for himself post-coalition failure and I'm not sure why he would want to do that? It really does feel like he wants a coalition that will work.

Ty for writing that all out, i appreciate it

I think the above is a cogent point + there's quite a lot of depth/nuance here that i had to ask for (i.e. it doesnt seem like a read that you made up to share to look Nuanced, its more just something internally that youu were wresting with that you shared when i asked), which makes me think its more likely real

this is a kind of a townread of ari

I still reallh want me/mena/irrel/std but alas we cannot all have the things we want

this is i think the last time skitter commented how much she wants the coalition, but immediately notes it's most likely not happening.

then it's mena appearing, the hammer, coalition failure, etc.

Me/mena/irrel/std

Ok so is this a viable core, and if yes, who should the fifth be?

we're all just guessing it's fine it's just a game

don't stress skitts pls let's make this a very low key and fun thing : )

I mean this is what i was pushing for a few days, you never seemed interested, and when i directly asked you this is what u answered

I also asked u directly about std a few posts down and you told me you wanted dats over him

this is what she says shortly after d2 starts.

and like, i have problems with her characterizing her posts on a coalition with std as "pushes" because all she did was ask a few times if a core that includes std is ok. like, that's not a push. she wasn't pushing for std to be included, she mentioned a few times that she townreads him (unless i missed it, it wasn't even explained why) and that she doesn't want ari and ari is not her first choice. except she also has so many posts on why she could maybe sorta put ari into the coalition.

[Datisi]

I made it *very* clear that i didn't want ari in, and that i only ultimately voted her as a compromise so that i'd be voting for something semi- viable at deadline.

i mean yes you made it very clear you did not want ari in, but you also kept hinting that you could i guess maybe vote there and you did approximately nothing to push std into a coalition so...

i have to pretend to be a contributing member to society for a bit but i'll write out a bigger post later today

i mean it was very non-ideal but i wanted to be voting for something viable
like do you think i should have not thought about including ari and stuck with a coalition that i know would not have gone through? i only started seriously considering putting her in like late thursday afternoon-ish. given my reads, how do you think i ought to have approached the coalition vote eod here?
and i didn't do 'approximately nothing to push std into a coalition', ty.

no, i think town!you who thinks std is a much better candidate for a coalition than ari should have done more up to that point to actually try to get him into a coalition. failing to do that, i think town!you would've realized that you did not actually do that and wouldn't be making arguments that you are now because they assume that you spent a significant amount of effort getting std into a coalition, when you did not.

quote where you actually pushed std in.

wrt nk15:

but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself

a) if you're scum with him, and one of you need to go in, i think it's better for you to try to get in than what you're proposing, which is to: purposefully put him in, bus him, and hard carry afterwards? like you're telling me that this is actually how you approach this game from the getgo??? i don't think that's likely at all ... from the beginning you were way more townread than him, and i don't htink anyone was seriouisly calling for your head other than me (i.e. so it's not like you had significant reason to believe you would get flipped first if you got in), and at the point i said that nk15 wasn't viable to get in at all.
b) again i'm dubious that you even could make that happen to begin with given the gamestate. in a vaccuum you're way more likely to get into the coalition than him always, and i tbh i think you'd have to burn *a lot* of cred to get him in. i'm kinda incredulous that you think that this could be a viable plan for a you/nk15 team

he's also being sus as anything today, the hammer doesn't make sense given his reads (he voted for 2 people to be in the coalition that he spent the entire day1 saying were svs), he hasn't explained why he did that, and he's now trying to introduce other scumteams

(5) if the scumteam is me/nk, then nk is never getting flipped before me. so you'll only be looking for nk AFTER i'm confirmed to flip red. and i make that post explaining why nk is not lockscum when he's never getting voted before me because ???

i don't understand this point and why you wouldn't do this

i'm not saying that would be my one and only plan. i'm not even saying it's "likely" that succeeds. but it is A Plan that Might work, and i have no reason to immediately shoot that plan into the foot by pointing out that nk15 is not townie and in fact here is a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partner!!

like idk why you're assuming as if scum!me can have only one plan and that scum!me can work towards only one plan at a time. it isn't unviable to be trying to get townread as a backup, but also not immediately sinking nk15 when people are townreading him for garbage reasons

i'm in the coalition. nk is out of the coalition. if we are a team, you are ALWAYS flipping me before him. which means that by the time you start looking for nk, I AM FLIPPED SCUM. with that knowledge in mind, i make an incriminating post towards my partner... WHY? (unless your answer is "wifom" to which my answer would be "i don't use wifom as scum like that because most of the townies only ever use level-zero-logic" but y'know.)

[Datisi]

Spoiler:

Me/mena/irrel/std

Ok so is this a viable core, and if yes, who should the fifth be?

And if ur not confident in dats either idk if i want to pit him in, but then it's hard for me to find a confident fifth

is there anything i can do to make you sorting me easier? i know the answer is probably "no", but still.

What's your ideal coalition rn?
Do u want ari in it?
Are you ok with me/mena/irrel/std?

This doesnt exactly answer your question but will give me a better sense of where you're at

(Its been a Week and I've also been playing this on like half-effort >.> i dont know everyone's reads or what's even viable ...)
(And ahhhhhhhh paranoia why am i making any of these decisions???? Are my reads wrong???? Am i putting in blatant scum???)

What's your ideal coalition rn?
Do u want ari in it?
Are you ok with me/mena/irrel/std?

me/you/mena/ari/irrel
yes
no

i mean i vaguely get what irrel was saying about std being townie but the points did not register in my brain as "valid" and they won't until i sit down and reread his iso with those things in mind

ngl i was hoping mena was gonna be more around because i wanted to talk to him about it since he's got a similar read than i do but

Ok if std being in it isnt viable i can probably compromise on that but that is not my ideal, i really would like std in it

And honestly to be perfectly frank if it failed i would probably flip you first
Probablh something like dats -> mena -> ari -> irrel
Maybe swap mena/ari idk

i'm noting how you're skipping over me asking both you and ari if you'd include std here and you guys indicating that you wouldn't ... ?
i wouldn't have trusted nk15/mala saying they wanted my coalition tbh
that's when i decided the votes weren't there

like how did you miss that sequence between 1026 and 1038 exactly @dats?

i didn't miss it, that's part of the problem. the first part is that that question was asked at a point where time was running short, but the biggest issue is that, once you're told std isn't our first preference, you go "yeah ok nvm i guess not" when like... you could've tried to change our mind? lay out why std is so incredibly townie to you?

[Datisi]

like if you said "why do you not want std in? have you considered he's town because xyz" then like yeah i would've conceded you pushed your thing it didn't work. but where is you trying to change anyone's mind on him?

[Datisi]

1038 is a hmm post to me because i felt like std was viable at the time and the fact that she was going "is std viable? no? i guess i can remove him..." is Concerning

plz elaborate how he was viable at that time, thank you
also nothing you posted prior to this was me strongly wanting ari in

other people were townreading him. he was basically around the 5th-6th place the whole time. changing mine or ari's minds would've made him viable.

are you purposefully twisting my words? i'm not saying you "strongly wanted ari in", i'm saying you kept nudging how you'd be maybe sorta fine i guess with her being in the coalition and not doing much to actually kick her out.

[Datisi]

give me a reason why ari is scum that doesn't mention an interaction that happened 50 pages ago

[Datisi]

i had like 8 hours between that moment and when i was leaving for the weekend
including a full day of work in between

you indicated you weren't likely
ari indicated she wasn't likely
irrel was unlikely to vote for something excluding you and ari given his reads
mena was eeeeehhhhh if he'd be around to talk to before i had to leave
i don't think i would have supported (or gotten) a coalition with a core of mena/me/irrel/std given who was remaining to even vote for it
fire also strongly scumread std
std scumread mena

if you/ari were anti it, where were the votes meant to come from exactly
who else was i supposed to ask?

like sure if you want to say earlier in the day i should have done. i probably should have, but i hadn't, and that morning i was trying to see what was available with the votes remaining, and that wasn't.

i had also towncased std at least once, prior in the day iirc

i think you're significantly over-emphasizing my support of ari being in, and i again strongly object to you saying that i didn't try to get std in as you gloss over me literally asking 2 key players if they'd include him
(i'm also not sure why you're framing this as a dichotomy between ari/std, when it wasn't ...)

okay, that was at the time you didn't have much time until you had to leave for the weekend. okay. assuming that meant you did not have time to lay out your reasons for wanting std in the coalition, then sure. at that point, there probably wasn't much you could've done.

you have been townreading std for a while, i think he was one of your first heals. where did you make a towncase? i ctrl+f'ed "std" in your iso, the closest thing to a towncase i found was 527, which is uh, very short and not really persuasive of a towncase.

how am i over-emphasizing it? you can say all you want that ari was not your first choice. but you made a lot of posts where you were toying with the idea of having her in the coalition. if you were really that strongly townreading std over her, why were you not doing more to get std in? and i'm framing it as a dichotomy because that's where the conflict is coming from. you strongly townread std, you weren't townreading ari. the coalition has failed with ari in it and with std out. so the natural question is why weren't you doing more to get him in?

and yes, i'm glossing over you asking two key players whether we'd include him when it was pretty clear we wouldn't (i know i made it known tha i townread ari over std, not sure what ari's public stance was at the time) and you didn't do anything to try to convince me otherwise. sure, if you didn't have time in that moment, that that's nai, i guess. but don't pretend like you asking that the way you did was in any way likely to end up putting std in

[Datisi]

i'm not saying that would be my one and only plan. i'm not even saying it's "likely" that succeeds. but it is A Plan that Might work, and i have no reason to immediately shoot that plan into the foot by pointing out that nk15 is not townie and in fact here is a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partner!!

like idk why you're assuming as if scum!me can have only one plan and that scum!me can work towards only one plan at a time. it isn't unviable to be trying to get townread as a backup, but also not immediately sinking nk15 when people are townreading him for garbage reasons

i'm in the coalition. nk is out of the coalition. if we are a team, you are ALWAYS flipping me before him. which means that by the time you start looking for nk, I AM FLIPPED SCUM. with that knowledge in mind, i make an incriminating post towards my partner... WHY? (unless your answer is "wifom" to which my answer would be "i don't use wifom as scum like that because most of the townies only ever use level-zero-logic" but y'know.)

you wrote the following, and framed it as how you would have behaved in a you/nk15 universe. i responded to that hypothetical, as i read the following as what you would try to do in the nk/dats s/s universe
and if that's not what you were saying you would have tried to do, fine: how would you have approached that universe

(2) this universe would be 100x easier to win if i don't shut down the nk15 townreads in the beginning but instead scumread enough other players to get him into the coalition, flip him, then carry myself; as opposed to getting myself into the coalition and banking on winning by flipping 3 out of skitt/irrel/mena/ari before myself

wrt the last paragraph above: i'm still not sure why you wouldn't, or you're describing it as an 'incriminating' post ...

this is annoying because this is going to be a long post that's nai and nobody else is gonna read it, but:

in 1295, i'm saying that if the scumteam is nk/dats, it's easier to win if nk is in the coalition than if i am - because scum!nk wouldn't exactly be a menace here, and it's on me to actually push things though. scum needs three misyeets to win, and i will have an easier time if i can push anyone than just my coalition buddies. if i'm in the coalition and he's not, then i have to push through 3/4 of my coalition members. if he's in the coalition and i'm not, after he flips, i can push whoever i want. (this is assuming he would die right after i would die if i were to die first, which i'm assuming because uh yeah i don't think scum!nk survives long in this pl, no offense.)

therefore, if i enter the game and i see the town townreading my partner!nk for absolutely atrocious reasons, *i keep my mouth shut*. there is literally nothing that scum!datisi gains by going "hey guys, you're townreading nk15 for bad reasons, also here's a scumgame where he loltunnelled his partners, ok bye"

i don't know how i would've approached the universe. it depends on how the game would've shaken out. but i know i would not have shut down the early townreads of my partner because it does not benefit me at all.

wrt the last paragraph: do we agree on the fact that my 1199 is Bad Associates between me/nk if i were to flip first? in a dats/nk world in a normal game, that post would serve the purpose of protecting nk15 with the drawback that if i flip first, he looks worse.

BUT, in the current game, I AM ALWAYS FLIPPING FIRST. there is no point in me writing a post to protect my out-of-coalition buddy when he is never flipping before me.

therefore, why would scum!me write that post about my partner?

does that make sense?

[Datisi]

like if you said "why do you not want std in? have you considered he's town because xyz" then like yeah i would've conceded you pushed your thing it didn't work. but where is you trying to change anyone's mind on him?

i indicated repeatedly i wanted him for like 4+ irl days. i asked several people if they would vote for him.
i probalby could have done more prior, but that's what i was able to do that morning. saying that i didn't try (and again skipping the posts where i was actually gauging if it was possible or not and asking people if they would join me) is inaccurate as well

okay. i'm not saying you didn't say you preferred std in your coalition. i'm saying you did nothing to actually push him through. saying "i want std in my coalition" doesn't actually make it likelier that he's gonna get put in because you're not providing reasons why he should be in it.

[Datisi]

ari, who do you currently think is scum in the coalition?

[Datisi]

skitt, what happened to your avatar

i'n questioning you because from my pov it seemed like you spent d1 just kinda being there, mentioning how you townread std and how you don't want ari in, but also didn't towncase std at all and kept nudging towards aristeia being kinda sorta okay to be in the coalition. then as soon as it failed, you started acting as if you were hard pushing for std to be in and were hard opposing ari and nobody was listening to you and you were forced into voting a coalition you didn't want and using that to push ari. when that's not how that looked like to me.

the fact that you are actually reconsidering ari is... okay, i guess? i don't love it since my immediate mental response is that you're backpedaling, but i shouldn't be mindlessly tunnelling. i'll go over our convo from today when i'm back from uni and see if i have any new thoughts.

[Datisi]

Occam’s razor: low-poster is scum.

so the scumteam is nk/mala and ydrasse is trolling us?

i'm like, i will consider scum!mena. but i need a bit more to actually convince me he's viable to be scum considering i feel like he has hit multiple towntells while he's been here...

[Datisi]

i'm still thinking about her posts in pyp where she said that scum!her values having a good trajectory. and this is very much... not it. i should be reevailng people anyway, might as well reread and see if anything comes to me

[Datisi]

i mean, yes, but i don't exactly townread people for having nonsense thought processes either - like nothing stopping scum!her from being in the same situation

and maybe we should've put nk15 into the coalition so that we can flip him immediately when it fails >_>

[Datisi]

scum has to have someone to push after the coalition fails? if you're scum and you put in yourself and 4 other people you strongly townread and it fails, then you have to have some possibly awkward progression on figuring out who to push

whereas if you have people that you're "willing" to put into a coalition but you're unsure they're kinda scummy you prefer someone else that you strongly townread, then it becomes much easier to maintain a trajectory after the coalition failure

[Datisi]

i forgot about that happening

why did prism pick that avi, i keep thinking i'm talking to petapan

I can understand how you see why my trajectory on ari was sus
...
and i'm not really sure it makes sense for u as town to scumread me here

how do these two sentences go together? do you think i should be townreading you here?

[Datisi]

oh, i just remembered i have a script for changing user avatars

anyway, what are the many reasons that aren't "ari is difficult to misflip", because i feel like that is true for all of the people in the coalition (and pretty much everyone in the game except nk/mala)

[Datisi]

i guess my other question would be "why is this not a push coming from town", but the question i actually want to ask is "what have you done to sort me" because i feel like "i townread you the least" is not really a Good Reason to want to flip me first considering you suspecting me like every single game we play

[Datisi]

I mean i would make a note that i'm not trying to flip u rn @dats, and that i didnt vote you or anything. I'm suspicious of you but i havent actually done anything to really get you voted out, as I'm not at the point where i'm convined you're the scum rn; i'm still trying to sort this mess out. But i am a little Sus of this push on me, as i dont really understand how/why you think i'd have taken this tactic as scum
So if you can explain why you think i'd be starting off with ari when she's fairly widely townread ans unlikely to get voted out with significant effort esp given i dont really have any Good Reasons to push her or any sort of decent trajectory leading up to that ... i think that would help me understand *your* approach to the day

you're not trying to flip me rn, no, but you've spent like the entirety of d1 saying how you find me suspicious and would like to flip me on coalition failure etc and i don't see *much* to indicate that has in any way changed, so

the first issue is that "widely townread" can be used to describe p much everyone in the coalition (probably applies the least to mena) so you have no choice but to start with someone who is widely townread (or start with mena and probably tank all of your towncred if you do get him through but y'know). and it's also like... why not? even if it's unlikely that ari will get flipped first (debatable but let's say), unless ari hard-shoves scum at some point, she's gonna stay a possible misyeet target. like, scum doesn't work alone and scum doesn't always focus on the one person they want to flip the same day -- i don't see why it's impossible for your partner to push, say, menalque, you to resist that push and say you're sus of ari or whoever, mena flips town, you get +towncred because you tried to tell us mena was town and we did not listen and now it's gonna be your way

and /shrug, i already explained why i felt like your trajectory made sense for pushing ari

[Datisi]

the competing wagons.

the only people pushing menalque this game day are
A. outside the coalition
B. Me (and I know I’m not scum)

as someone who has not drawn a correct conclusion from vca once in my life: what

[Datisi]

I mean i would make a note that i'm not trying to flip u rn @dats, and that i didnt vote you or anything. I'm suspicious of you but i havent actually done anything to really get you voted out, as I'm not at the point where i'm convined you're

the

scum rn; i'm still trying to sort this mess out. But i am a little Sus of this push on me, as i dont really understand how/why you think i'd have taken this tactic as scum

how do you seem to know there is only one scum in the coalition :thonk:

[Datisi]

Dats may I please have one of your cute little triangle diagram things for your thoughts rn <3

uh, sure, lemme just figure out how to transfer the template onto my new laptop >_>

[Datisi]

imagine if a coalitioned partner didn't push the most-lhf slot in the coalition while their buddy tried to tip them over, so that the coalitioned partner's hands aren't bloody the next day

or maybe i'm just stupid and mena is scum

either one, really

[Datisi]

You've also in the past acknowledged mu meta/approach r.e. goos trajectories so i'm not sure why you're thinking scum-me just threw that out of the window here

yeah i have

but arguably your trajectory onto pushing aristeia would be less bad than it would pushing mena or irrel here - the only push whose transition onto would be easier for you is me and then there's the argument of whether me or ari are actually more likely to flip

and i was mostly thinking of the fact how mena can read you p well (or used to) and how he can figure out bad pushes against his slot, and how even if you personally do get him to die today, then either you have to kill me tonight or tomorrow is going to be really difficult

[Datisi]

Dats may I please have one of your cute little triangle diagram things for your thoughts rn <3

nk15 is represented by the first image that google gave me when i typed in "not known 15"

let me know if you have any specific points of interest

[Datisi]

aww now I want to ride a hot air balloon with you even though you are scared of heights

is it embarrassing that i only now realized what a hot air balloon had to do with my triangle? >_> i'm going to bed

also, how i wish i knew wht goes on in nk15's mind

[Datisi]

i think the only way a mena/nk15 universe makes sense is if scum!nk15 is utilizing the "be suspected, then vote your partner at the worst possible time in order to make townies dubious of the wagon and reluctant to yeet your partner"

and i feel like scum!nk15 is rather... unlikely to be utilizing that strategy

[Datisi]

sorry, i've been forbidden from white knighting mena >_>

[Datisi]

I think datisi is town, though

y

[Datisi]

cliff notes is fine, thank you

i will let you know if i need a more thorough version when i go over what you wrote about std later tonight or tomorrow, depending on busyness and/or anxiety over the game

pedit: @mena

[Datisi]

everyone whose name is not menalque, please ignore this post for now

Subject: Micro 952 - The Coalition: ItGBSMoD [game over!]

all that happens if it fails if we put you on it is that we end up voting you out after we vote out wug.

Err, no, because if the coalition fails we are not [guillotining] outside of it until we hit scum

mena, can you comment on this post pls

[Datisi]

and for everyone regardless of your name:

i gotta take my tue/wed v/la this week because uni is hell and i need to sleep - will try to properly read and digest the mena/std thing tomorrow during my commute

[Datisi]

ok peeps i am back from uni i am working on 3 braincells currently, i will be catching up throughout the next 1-3 hours

does anyone want me to look at something more urgent or important in the meantime

i see 1697, i will get to it in a moment

[Datisi]

datisi can you give me the cliff notes on why ari is town once you're back please

actually fuck structure i'm just gonna list things off as i remember
- didn't try to force her way on day one, openly said multiple times she would sheep skitter or sheep me. i think scum!her is more than able to brute force her way and the fact that she voluntarily stepped back to let the thread develop on its own pace makes me think she's town
- her reasons for townreading me are kinda... not something that benefits scum!her? like, scum!her doesn't have to go on a tangent how "i'm not scumreading her, so that makes her paranoid, BUT she's not gonna scumread me for that because it makes a toxic precedent and maybe i'm better at reading her now" or "scum!tisi couldn't bare posting in the dance game, he's different here" when that's something she can just, like NOT mention at all. the only way i can think of it making sense is if she's pocketing me and i'm not sure i see the benefit
- posts like 1195 is something i don't remember seeing from scum!her. it feels like way more effort than needed. and IF she was scum putting that effort in, i feel like it would've resulted in her simply pushing skitter, not just ~sorting her~
- also i really like the point where she mentioned how she didn't want sheep skitt on a coalition that she knew was worse and where skitter wanted to kill me anyway if it wasn't my preference. like maybe i'm dumb and getting pocketed but it both feels like (1) a reasonable organic thought process that scum doesn't think to naturally fake (2) that does not really benefit her much other than getting townread
- and like, on d2 i feel like the sorting content : pushing content is way too... high for scum!her? like i think she would've chosen someone by now. this is similar to my other points but yeah

i'm like 10 pages behind and admittedly didn't do much to reeval her today but that's the cliff notes

ok gonna go eat something, leave a voicemail if you need me

[Datisi]

(2) that does not really benefit her much other than getting townread

this sounds kinda stupid written out like this, but my point is - it's a pretty minor thing that people probably won't notice and it doesn't benefit her much otherwise, that effort to reward ratio is just not worth for her to bother faking it

[Datisi]

ari pls let me keep believing i have a faintest idea on how to read you

[Datisi]

Really really really really really really really don't want him to be town though because almost every post I read from skitter, datisi, and aristeia feels so pure and solve-y and effort-y and TvT, to the point where I have started skimming them so I don't town-tunnel (is that thing?) too much on that trio. just being honest here.

this is a post that gave me the impression of being something that scum probably(?) doesn't say because it's like, i don't think they lock themselves into a position where they're this forced to re-evaluate

i guess if irrel is scum, he's already done a good number of things that don't feel like something scum does and i shouldn't be giving this specific post attention but here we are i guess

but I think that StD redding essentially solves the game?

i think this has been asked about already, but quoting it anyway as a reminder

Could that be because you two are right and the rest of us are not seeing his obvious towntells, or because he's catering his scumplay to your meta expectations? (I'm guessing the latter currently, I think it's common for scum, me included, to play to the expectations they know others have of them, but then miss the expectations of players they don't know as well)

i don't think this is the case... the way i've been using meta recently is trying to find posts that i don't think fit the mentality of a certain person playing as scum (see: guardians of the fortress as an example of me doing that) and the thing with using such meta is that it's *difficult* to predict. even if you know i'm using meta to read you, you can't know exactly what patterns have i picked up on in your town/scumgames and what am i looking for. like, i included meta examples that were from late 2020 and early 2021. do you think mena remembers those posts and he managed to play into my expectations?

like, you *could* argue he was just blanket imitating his meta and managed to stumble upon the things i'm looking for, but in my experience that doesn't(?) happen so like idk shrug i am not convinced my towncase was bad.

[Datisi]

(tfw dats has a quote from menalque in his sig, making it really hard to cntl+f for him >.>)

i changed it :3

i very strongly don't think mena's case on std comes from scum:
- i think that this is a read he feels very strongly about
- i think that scum-him is very aware that std is not getting flipped today so this is a lost cause
- don't think scum-him puts nearly this much energy writing up a case on someone he knows isn't getting flipped today

and on the very-offchance mena gets std flipped today, where is he going next even?

i guess we can make an argument that there's scum with him in the coalition and he doesn't want to flip there
but like i can't imagine he thinks that this will actually work

i think the std case from mena only makes sense from scum!mena if he's doing some reverse psychology bullshit in order to try to spew his partner green - bc i don't think this gets him townread from anyone other than you/me, and you/me already townread him so

incidentally, i lowkey think that is mena reds, std might actually be the buddy, but i'll think about it if/when mena reds

[Datisi]

tigers is even worse

skitter doesn't use tigers!?!??!?!1?!11?!?!?

i did not ever get the impression that the elim was most likely to fall within dats/skitter personally

yeah same, i don't think anyone was actually scumreading either of us (other than one another) and maaaybe like whatever is going on in nk15's head

[Datisi]

ok, i'm reading page 65 and i get this weird feeling of... panic? from irrel's 1606, 1611, 1613. what i mean is, a good amount of these posts boil down to "things that this person did are weird and do not have obvious town motivation, therefore they come from scum" when i feel like most of experienced players don't use level-zero-logic like that in order to argue their points. or rather, they go through the thought process of "does it actually make sense for scum to do this". like, i get that it's not optimal to want to yeet outside the coalition but what does scum!mena gain with that?

ok i stopped typing the above thought bc i see skitter did argue some of the points i was thinking but the tl;dr is that i am not impressed with irrel's arguments for scum!mena here

Either way, playing bizarre has scum benefit by being WIFOM-y. Playing bizarre isn't something townies do unless they're, like, hiding a PR

what

also i think if skitter and mena were partners in this economy, i think she would've been bussing him for like 2 years now

increasingly bad as he continues to tunnel me and not acknowledge that NK15 hammering a coalition with me in it is dumb as fucking bricks for a team made up of the two of us

unironically i think nk15 would've done that in an nk15/mena team (i don't think they're the team for different reasons but uh look me in the eyes and tell me scum!nk15 wouldn't do that)

[Datisi]

my eyes are glazing over and i don't like the way the vc in 1700 is looking at me - am gonna take a break and then see how i feel about the state of the universe

@menalque pls explain how std redding solves the game (1485)

[Datisi]

also relying on Dats to decide things is uh

hehe

fun if you want to see me suffer, not fun if you actually want to win this game of mafia

[Datisi]

the actually very stupid part of this whole game is that reading irrel's case did make me start thinking about the fact that there are one or two things that might point to mena being scum... but they don't have much to do with the case that irrel actually brought out, which is uh, fun

[Datisi]

if it turns out that skitter was scum this whole time and i got distracted by these two, i'm gonna be ANGY

[Datisi]

there is a voice in my head that tells me i shouldnt trust you but i locked it inside a safe and dumped it into the ocean.

is there anything that i can do to help this? :<

@mena pls explain

[Datisi]

the knowledge that it exists at all is not pleasant to me >_>

pedit: @ari

@mena, i'm aware that like, flipping scum outside of the coalition, should one exist, is Very Good because 3 conftowns that were probably kinda scummy

but i thought the "it solves the game" had more, like, associates in mind

[Datisi]

why am i townreading mena for the way he's acting right now

even when i think it's more likely objectively that irrel gets flipped rather than mena

i feel like on some logic level, that should make me see mena's "flip me lol" as scummy but i just don't think it does

[Datisi]

why am i townreading mena for the way he's acting right now

even when i think it's more likely objectively that irrel gets flipped rather than mena

i feel like on some logic level, that should make me see mena's "flip me lol" as scummy but i just don't think it does

im really confused how you got here

because it's like

i can see clear scum motivation for (1) switching his vote from you to irrel, especially after skitter voted there, (2) going "woe is me i'm getting flipped oh no".

i can't see the scum motivation for doing *both* of those things. it doesn't make sense - if he voted irrel as a survival strategy, then why does he refuse to actually respond to the case irrel made? he knows it won't help him if he goes "yeah no lol i'm tired" when like nobody except for me and skitter will townread it. and why does he antagonize ari. and why does he try to gain votes by asking irrel to self-vote when that is going to work approximately never.

like i KNOW the response might be "well he's playing up the meta and the wifom for you and skitter!!" for some parts of his actions, but like, why? we were already townreading him before, and he's doing actions that sink him with others in order to... further pocket those who he had pocketed already? like

[Datisi]

i mean my reasons weren't exactly "mena unaware thus mena town" because i don't think that's actually locktown for him or anything

but basically like uh i regret some of my life choices

[Datisi]

idk it's like

i saw mena vote for irrel and i was like "oh. oh no." but THEN he started acting the exact opposite of what i'd have expected scum!mena to be doing in this economy and nfdsjkjanlwfnqilb mafia

[Datisi]

std, maybe i would if i had actually read it >.>

i am also going to bed because my shitpost:content ration has gotten too high and i am not able to think right now, cheers

[Datisi]

Anyone see town!mena telling me to self-vote, please link me to the last time he did. 100% AtE to get one mislim in before I take him down

town!mena has told me to self-vote once

but that was after i was modconfirmed scum and the last yeet so not very comparative

i don't think it's scum!indicative for him though because i think scum-him would *know* it is not going to work, so the only reason to throw that out would be to try to get emotionally read as town. which, like, i see it most likely to be working on skitter or me, and i don't see why he would be calculating to do a "surface-level-scummy but townie to those who know me" action when the only people who would townread him from it already townread him

in my experience, scum-mena doesn't really get emotional like that, so i don't see it very likely to be coming out of pure frustration as scum (though, to be fair, i do remember reading somewhere that mena might have gotten emotional as scum in perpetual melo, but i did not play nor read that game, so if skitter could help me out here and tell me whether scum-mena is actually capable of non-calculated emotional stuff, that'd be grand)