KittyTacky wrote:Town Compulsive Vigilante
Town Backup Compulsive Vigilante
Town 1-Shot Bulletproof
Town 3-Shot Tracker
Town Traffic Analyst
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Mafia Goon
Mafia Role Cop
Mafia Informed 1-Shot Neighborizer
Mafia have daytalk and are multitasking. The informed mafioso gets the message "There is a town Traffic Analyst." in their role PM. The theme will be "Roguelikes", covering the history and common gameplay mechanics of roguelike games.
I want a compulsive vig and a backup compulsive vig, I don't want to drop them at all. I like the Neighborizer/Traffic Analyst interaction but I can begrudgingly part with it.
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:42 pm
by implosion
Primary: Datisi
Secondary: implosion
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:49 pm
by Datisi
ego
about to have class so will get to this later today
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:52 pm
by implosion
Roguelikes are a nice theme for a normal. I have been playing much rogue legacy 2.
One note if you want a compulsive role: make sure you're familiar with the normal rules for them (basically, it's just to avoid having a random resolution).
Spoiler: Setup opinion (if Datisi wants to go in unbiased)
At a very quick glance I think this is probably either balanced or in the vicinity of it. Town gets 2 conftown in the vigs, a potentially slightly scummy 1-shot bp, a fairly powerful tracker given that there's lots of interesting things they could find (though they could also mistakenly see a vig shooting), and the traffic analyst is
almost
a cop. It's quite a bit of raw power and I think it definitely justifies a full rolecop for scum. I'd even go so far as to say it could be worth bumping the goon to a backup rolecop or something, because scum are gonna be in for a rough one if they lose the rolecop early. But that's also not entirely a buff for scum since it dying would give away the existence of a main rolecop and it'd make the tracker stronger.
But yeah, this is quite a lot of raw town power - 3 roles I'd describe as strong, 1 as medium (tracker is normally maybe medium-weak but it's quite good here even gated, though 3-shot tracker is sorta an awkward decision of when to use it so shrug), and one as relatively weak (the 1-shot bp has potential to earn an extra mislim but it also could be found by the rolecop or a vig or something).
Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 7:07 pm
by Datisi
ok i lied my class is in 10 minutes
i think this is actually... pretty townsided? i know i might be biased, but like. the two vigilantes are almost always going to be confirmed town just by virtue of claims and shots. the traffic analyst is Almost a cop - the 1-shot neighbourizer can maybe make him get a false guilty or save a partner from getting hard-guiltied, but it seems like more often than not there's just going to be a few clears from the traffic analyst as well.
the game can "turn balanced" if the vigilantes shoot especially poorly, which is almost always the case with vigilante games anyway, doubly so when there's two vigilantes, but yeah. i guess my verdict is unhealthily swingy, somewhat scumsided.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:38 am
by KittyTacky
Woo! Thanks you two.
implosion wrote:Roguelikes are a nice theme for a normal. I have been playing much rogue legacy 2.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">One note if you want a compulsive role: make sure you're familiar with the normal rules for them (basically, it's just to avoid having a random resolution).<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Spoiler: Setup opinion (if Datisi wants to go in unbiased)
At a very quick glance I think this is probably either balanced or in the vicinity of it. Town gets 2 conftown in the vigs, a potentially slightly scummy 1-shot bp, a fairly powerful tracker given that there's lots of interesting things they could find (though they could also mistakenly see a vig shooting), and the traffic analyst is
almost
a cop. It's quite a bit of raw power and I think it definitely justifies a full rolecop for scum. I'd even go so far as to say it could be worth bumping the goon to a backup rolecop or something, because scum are gonna be in for a rough one if they lose the rolecop early. But that's also not entirely a buff for scum since it dying would give away the existence of a main rolecop and it'd make the tracker stronger.<br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">But yeah, this is quite a lot of raw town power - 3 roles I'd describe as strong, 1 as medium (tracker is normally maybe medium-weak but it's quite good here even gated, though 3-shot tracker is sorta an awkward decision of when to use it so shrug), and one as relatively weak (the 1-shot bp has potential to earn an extra mislim but it also could be found by the rolecop or a vig or something).
i think this is actually... pretty townsided? i know i might be biased, but like. the two vigilantes are almost always going to be confirmed town just by virtue of claims and shots. the traffic analyst is Almost a cop - the 1-shot neighbourizer can maybe make him get a false guilty or save a partner from getting hard-guiltied, but it seems like more often than not there's just going to be a few clears from the traffic analyst as well.
the game can "turn balanced" if the vigilantes shoot especially poorly, which is almost always the case with vigilante games anyway, doubly so when there's two vigilantes, but yeah. i guess my verdict is unhealthily swingy, somewhat scumsided.
Alright, let's buff scum a bit then. My main concern from reading implosion's verdict is that the rolecop can die early and scum is boned. I don't think outing the existence of the full rolecop is that big of a concern.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:39 am
by KittyTacky
And yeah I know about the compulsive requirement, I still don't think compulsive vigs are used enough. Seems like a cool role with interesting nightplay.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:42 am
by KittyTacky
Also, mafia knows there are no protective roles if they're smart. They know there's a TA but they haven't been given any tools to stop a protective role. So that's a point to scum since they're even more informed.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:43 am
by KittyTacky
In post 7, KittyTacky wrote:They know there's a TA but they haven't been given any tools to stop a protective role.
Hit the submit button too early. This is because Follow The Cop (TA) is thwarted by all setups.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 5:20 am
by implosion
I think if Datisi still feels it's townsided (which I think it well could be) another reasonable change is to gate the traffic analyst, maybe with novice or something like that.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 5:21 am
by Datisi
well, i was about to say i do feel it's townsided, but that i was willing to go with it if implo thought it's fine. so.
Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 4:11 pm
by implosion
Do you feel novice TA is balanced or still townsided
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 9:03 am
by Datisi
i don't Love It, but with the core idea being what it is, dunno if i will ever love it. so sure, novice ta (and the informed being adjusted accordingly) is fine with me.
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:06 pm
by KittyTacky
Spoiler: Role PMs
This good?
Datisi wrote:i don't Love It, but with the core idea being what it is, dunno if i will ever love it. so sure, novice ta (and the informed being adjusted accordingly) is fine with me.
What are your objections to the core idea?
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:19 pm
by Datisi
vigilante is a high swing role. compulsive vigilante and a backup for it doubly so. a traffic analyst here either gets alignemnt-accurate or worthless results, depending on whether mafia is able to galaxy brain the usage of the neighbourizer or not. and a tracker is also able to get hard guilties.
like, most of normal games have swing as it's almost unavoidable. by having multiple high-swing power roles, this game cranks it up a lot. but like, as said, neither a certain amount of swinginess or a reviewer's liking is required for a setup to pass.
the role pm of the neighbourizer is wrong. there's a town novice traffic analyst in the game.
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 10:26 pm
by KittyTacky
Yeah I actually wanted a high-power game so YMMV,
I'll change it when I send the PMs.
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:06 am
by Datisi
i'd prefer if you fixed it now. also i need to see the investigation results for all roles.
your role pm's don't specify how to confirm, though i don't think that's a requirement, just letting you know.
don't forget to publicly announce daytalk + multitasking.
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:53 pm
by KittyTacky
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Investigation results (no result is impossible in this setup)
Tracker
- "<target> visited <target's target> tonight!" / "<target> did not visit anyone tonight."
Traffic Analyst
- "<target> can currently privately communicate!" / "<target> cannot currently privately communicate."
Role Cop
- "<target>'s role is <role>"
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 7:55 pm
by implosion
Tracker should technically have a result for visiting multiple players, since scum multitask.
I don't think there's a standard for this but backup compulsive vig should have to submit a list of players either at the start of the game, or when they become compulsive vig. If the former, it needs to be in the role PM; if the latter, it needs to be a sort of pseudo-result PM that can be prepared in advance.
I'd change "kill" to "nightkill" in the BP pm for clarity that it doesn't work on lims.
Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 9:43 pm
by KittyTacky
In post 18, implosion wrote:Tracker should technically have a result for visiting multiple players, since scum multitask.
I don't think there's a standard for this but backup compulsive vig should have to submit a list of players either at the start of the game, or when they become compulsive vig. If the former, it needs to be in the role PM; if the latter, it needs to be a sort of pseudo-result PM that can be prepared in advance.
I'd change "kill" to "nightkill" in the BP pm for clarity that it doesn't work on lims.
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Investigation results (no result is impossible in this setup)
Tracker
- "<target> visited <target's target> tonight!" / "<target> visited <target's target 1> and <target's target 2> tonight!" / "<target> did not visit anyone tonight."
Traffic Analyst
- "<target> can currently privately communicate!" / "<target> cannot currently privately communicate."
In post 18, implosion wrote:Tracker should technically have a result for visiting multiple players, since scum multitask.
I don't think there's a standard for this but backup compulsive vig should have to submit a list of players either at the start of the game, or when they become compulsive vig. If the former, it needs to be in the role PM; if the latter, it needs to be a sort of pseudo-result PM that can be prepared in advance.
I'd change "kill" to "nightkill" in the BP pm for clarity that it doesn't work on lims.
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Investigation results (no result is impossible in this setup)
Tracker
- "<target> visited <target's target> tonight!" / "<target> visited <target's target 1> and <target's target 2> tonight!" / "<target> did not visit anyone tonight."
Traffic Analyst
- "<target> can currently privately communicate!" / "<target> cannot currently privately communicate."
In post 18, implosion wrote:Tracker should technically have a result for visiting multiple players, since scum multitask.
I don't think there's a standard for this but backup compulsive vig should have to submit a list of players either at the start of the game, or when they become compulsive vig. If the former, it needs to be in the role PM; if the latter, it needs to be a sort of pseudo-result PM that can be prepared in advance.
I'd change "kill" to "nightkill" in the BP pm for clarity that it doesn't work on lims.
Spoiler: Role PMs
Spoiler: Investigation results (no result is impossible in this setup)
Tracker
- "<target> visited <target's target> tonight!" / "<target> visited <target's target 1> and <target's target 2> tonight!" / "<target> did not visit anyone tonight."
Traffic Analyst
- "<target> can currently privately communicate!" / "<target> cannot currently privately communicate."
Role Cop
- "<target>'s role is <role>"
EBWOP.
EBWOP 2.
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 3:03 am
by Datisi
datisi, stop forgetting to reply to threads you've already opened challenge (100% impossible)
anyway. in theory, i would prefer for backup compulsive vig's "btw you need to submit a list of people now that a compulsive vig has died" to be in a separate pm and not included in the role pm, since it being in the role pm kind of implies there *is* a compulsive vig in the game. or at least, the players might interpret it that way.
however, since i don't recall there being precedent over this sort of thing, and as long as you say that "they'd be required to submit a list for their backup compulsive action even if there's no actual compulsive role in the game" if someone asks, it shouldn't be a problem.
/pass
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:00 am
by KittyTacky
Thanks!!!!! I'll just add "This does not necessarily mean there is a Compulsive Vigilante in the game." to the PM to clear any bias.
Posted: Mon May 23, 2022 5:07 am
by Datisi
maybe it's my own confbias, but i feel that's even worse >.> i'd keep it as is, maybe ask implo if you wanna be sure.