Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[Bellaphant]

Perfect timing.

VOTE: Somnus the probability gods just want it to be this way

[Bellaphant]

Umm, very few things? Maybe a counter claim where I can't get a good read?

I've been plat mafia since my join date, only ever on this site.
Unlike Somnus I can't get a red role pm if I try. I'd hate to b scum right now because I literally haven't been in years.
I'm around. Probably a middle poster. I'm UK though so tend to be here when others aren't.
It really depends!

[Bellaphant]

@somnus, that may be an issue for the mods?

Also, that worries me!! That's my town game. Like, it's just that.

[Bellaphant]

Just for context, what particularly did you find scummy? I've been happy with my play in my last two newbie games

[Bellaphant]

Bless Luke. A vibe is a fine answer, thanks.

[Bellaphant]

@xheap, basically the answer is 'i wouldn't' , but in that case yes, if I was massively unsure.i wouldn't want to lose the pr. It would also sort itself out over night, basically. Tbf day 1 is all about Info gathering and should move fairly quickly.

I don't feel like this conversation about vasex is helpful/I don't want it to be the topic of convo for the day.

[Bellaphant]

Actually I totally agree with red. The lie isn't massively relevant to the game, you kicking off about it is busy work that looks useful and aggressive and town but... nah. This is where I'd vote you

[Bellaphant]

???? This is literally not a thing. If you are town, the pro town thing to do is drop this And play the game, rather than decide you are the elim for today and make sweeping comments.

Three people have told you that this is silly. We can't all be scum.

[Bellaphant]

All its done is makw me town read rad And cheap. Which is at least a positive.

[Bellaphant]

Nah, it was a bad take. Also 'bad takes to create content' is just...bad. I don't expect it, however long I've been playing.

You are right though, it did generate some content, in terms of new reads. I have very little read on vasex themselves. It will be interesting to see their further responses to things: I'm going to struggle with memey as a vibe.

[Bellaphant]

No,.sorry, I feel that vasex's content could be quite memey, based on this start.

Ok, if you want to discuss it more: are they lying, or joking? What benefit does either have for them as scum? Why would you, as scum, lie about something so obviously provable?

I can't see your thoughts here. You said your response was to generate content, but are now also still arguing that it isnt, at least in part, a bad take. I don't understand

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:

That was was I needed.

[Bellaphant]

Hi, any thoughts on the game?

[Bellaphant]

@rad, considering we've had a no show and replace out, I'm not expecting day one to be hugely busy. Day one is often a crapshoot, you'll learn to roll with it.

I don't really think italiano thinks anyone would jump on that statement, so that whole interaction is weird to me.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: msq bosco

[Bellaphant]

Omg that's a blast from the past. You ok, mate?

I tell people I haven't been scum In years, I swear the last time was with bbt.

[Bellaphant]

I thought their initial pitch on vasex was awful, and then they doubled down, Ans interacted slightly oddly with the other people telling them to drop it (whiskey, rad and later someone else) but they responded really well to me, which felt town. Little worried they know I respond well to 'reasonable' but not enough to elim then day one.

More worried about rad, tbh. I flip from massively town reading them one post to having to check it's still the same slot next post as I find it so odd.

I have no read on vasex or msq. Not much on italiano either.

Also, of course I remember you

P-edit I don't think that's a good vote, genuinely.
Pp-edit I'll go check that game! Welcome

[Bellaphant]

Should I be worried

I've kinda thrown down a pressure vote on my weakest read, which is lame I know.

[Bellaphant]

@rad, I said most of what I wanted to say in response to bbt about you ; I like your longer, content posts but your 'wake up town' and trying to extend rqs feels really pointless and 'look at me, I'm so town' (lamist).

[Bellaphant]

If someone with more town cred than myself could explain why, I would be eternally grateful.

Can you expand more on this? Why do you think you don't have town cred? I've really not likes the page from you.

[Bellaphant]

Eh, the only one I felt was actually a scum read was rad and the smilies weakned how seriously I took it. I took vasex to be more talking about msq.

Actually z vasex, is that some sort of meta thing on msq? Can you explain?

[Bellaphant]

I don't understand vasex much at all, I said earlier to Somnus I'd find them haes to read.

Unless I'm missing something, I literally think the last time I was scum was that mutli ball game with you, Thor, I think Plotinus was there? My only scum game in the newbie queue was my second newbie ever. I am terrified of rolling scum.

[Bellaphant]

Not to be all Somnus, but @spartan, can you link me to the newbie we did together? I can't seem to find it.

[Bellaphant]

@rad, what's scummy about anything you've mentioned in my iso? Possibly not following up with italiano, but he was replaced, and I know I want to reframe my question to bbt about page 7/8.

'shade' is also a really weird interpretation of 'i find vasex hard to read', which other people have said. I'm also reaching out to them to try and understand more.

It's day one. Noones reads need to be super clear - right now my strongest town read is cheap, then you and whiskey sit a bit above null, and then there's...everyone else.

Also, I think it's really obvious why I drop my vote, and I do explain it later to bbt. It's like you are looking at every post in tiny granular detail rather than looking at the flow.

Here I am givingpointless not game related info: I really like reading games backwards, especially after day one, as I find it easier to see progression.

...p-edit oh god.

[Bellaphant]

ok, mq.bosco is townie

How are you getting this read? She has posted very little and her posts read null to me.

yeah it is difficult with her in every game
but she scumreads italiano a bit, and he votes her and he is lying that they are together in one PT, so I guess he is just scum, and she is not

Back to this - thanks for the meta info who's lying about the pt? Can you explain this, I'm clearly missing something

[Bellaphant]

Oh, ok, I was looking for the answer in the slot bbt replaced. That whole convo is more pointless than I was hoping!

I liked bbts early stuff and then I left the thread for a page and I felt it got a lot scummier, but it could be a response to pressure, as he seemed to think there were at least 3 slots scum reading him.

Those three scum reads kinda come out of nowhere too.

[Bellaphant]

Well, vasex's doesn't, but Spartans really seems to.

[Bellaphant]

Also, rereading rads' partner talk: this is really unhelpful, especially on day one. Scum!Bella can totally descalate scum!Somnus and there's nothing I've said to bbt. With my vote on msq, do you know whether I bus? Like...it's restrictive to get into these thought patterns early.

Day one is generally more useful post day one. Sometimes you have good instincts and then get talked out or them by the game!

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: spartan



Producing content but I don't get town pings

[Bellaphant]

Bbt, we clearly aren't getting each other. I think my progression from 40's 'i don't want to deal with ten pages about what is a joke about russian hackers' through to confusion over whether Somnus even thought what they thought or were just generating content, to them actually engaging with me properly (and reaching out with info about how I could read them as they'd just specces my game) is pretty obvious? There was also a pretty marked tone shift from Somnus, from 'i have a shit take and I'll defend it to the end and also scum are using it against me', to something that looked really pro town in his later explanation. I thought you'd remember that I much prefer to talk to people one on one - I guess I liked that I felt he actually wanted me to understand, rather than just convince me. (which would've felt more scummy). Also, I was disappointed in the middle: not with town reads but by the fact we were still. Talking. About. Russian. Hackers.

I agree he wasn't under massive pressure, but I don't think that his freak out was scummy. You say he's an accomplished scum player but I'm not sure what an accomplished scum player gets out of what was essentially a tantrum?

[Bellaphant]

Also, if you are going to 'throw shade' at my slot, you should probably stop sheeping my votes

[Bellaphant]

Hey, I'm sorry if that's how it's coming across, tantrum was a bad word choice. I think you are town and I really like your content: other people keep asking me about the thing we both want to drop.

Did you spec the newbie that to2, ash, GM and I were in before the one you did?

[Bellaphant]

I didn't really understand that about RVs?

[Bellaphant]

Omg that was my perfect tracker game!

But yes, please address the thread

@bbt, I feel I have answered that. And two other people responded the same

[Bellaphant]

Omg that was my perfect tracker game!

But yes, please address the thread

@bbt, I feel I have answered that. And two other people responded the same

I didn't actually ask my question here: I'm one of three voices talking to Somnus about the same thing. Why is it particularly bad from me?

[Bellaphant]

@ Spartan ?? That's... A whole narrative about people's motivations. Or evidence. Are you implying bbt and me are scum together?

I'm voting you because you are scummy.

P-edit at rad, wow that's some aggression over...not much? I am absolutely happy with my play, im sorting, I'm happy.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, 62 and 69.

[Bellaphant]

Also, :you can't have good reads day one' is absolutely not what I said. Or believe.

[Bellaphant]

I did miss that I put Spartan at e-2, no regrets though

I didn't like your approach to bbt, then I didn't like your catch up, now I really don't like your storytelling. After your catch up it was just you were the least town of the active posters, but your response has been really suspect. Scum want to control the narrative of the game, which is what that post did In spades

[Bellaphant]

No, I think it's a bit shit, but it also could have been a mistake, same as mine was. If I didn't know it was e-2, it's just as reasonable that he missed it too.

I felt like the scum reads on bbt piled on pretty quick and yours seemed to have the least behind in..you may say that's because you had less posts in total, but it also seemed a very weird, very quick pile on.

The same way you and rad seemed to have piled on me. I dislike 'bella thought' and 'bella acted' and then seeing things that are totally unrecognisable to me: I don't think that's unreasonable.

@rad, I believe that. It was also, in context, a comment on you doing a 180 on a read based on massively over thinking it, which I think was also pointed out by whiskey delta. It's not s controversial statement.

[Bellaphant]

I tend to announce e-2 in newbies. I was surprised you were e-1 after bbts vote.

[Bellaphant]

I looked through Spartan's posts again.

He's new to the game so hasn't had a chance to play much (7 posts). The guy he replaced made no posts.

He's already given some significant stances (voted me, pressuring BlueBloodedToffee, pressuring Vasex, town read on Somnus)

He's given town more material in 7 posts than Bella has in 23.
Snip

@Cheap - what do you think of Bella and my read on him? What do you think about changing your vote from Spartan to Bella?

[Bellaphant]

Scum wouldn't be this blatant, right? They wouldn't both pile on at the same time, and re use the literal same words.


Right?

[Bellaphant]

Scum wouldn't be this blatant, right? They wouldn't both pile on at the same time, and re use the literal same words.


Right?

Maybe so obviously not something scum would do, that scum would try and get away with it.

??? You and rad have both flung the same accusation at me and bbt in the same words. Ive never seen anything like it before. I can't work out what on earth it means though.

....I like bbt better when they are talking to me and rad better when they are not.

[Bellaphant]

Would easily be able to say that Cheapside has provided much more content in their 6 posts than you have in 55 actually...

I looked through Spartan's posts again.

He's new to the game so hasn't had a chance to play much (7 posts). The guy he replaced made no posts.

He's already given some significant stances (voted me, pressuring BlueBloodedToffee, pressuring Vasex, town read on Somnus)

He's given town more material in 7 posts than Bella has in 23.
Snip

@Cheap - what do you think of Bella and my read on him? What do you think about changing your vote from Spartan to Bella?

[Bellaphant]

"cheapside has provided...." "He's given..."

They aren't direct quotes of each other but I rarely see that accusation anywhere, let alone in the same basic words in less than 100 posts from two different slots. The fact that I have varying degrees of scum reads on both if you just makes it extra weird.

[Bellaphant]

Like, gun to head even though I think the timing of you both being on me, after three slots (including Spartan) went for bbt at the same time is suspect, you both being scum just feels very convenient. He's scummier than you, so why is he repeating your words?

[Bellaphant]

Saying, 'rad and Spartan both decided in a scum PT that this was a brilliant way to make people scum read a slot and then both decided to use it within 24 hours of each other' is really silly. But it still flags me as super weird.

[Bellaphant]

Them to me? Or me to them?

[Bellaphant]

Ike, I definitely feel their weird 180 on me was prompted by the fact that my read wobbled on them, but then it feels weird for a towny to go fron that to basically shitting on my content and dismissing all of it/taking the worst version of what I said?

But their interactions with you look much better.

So I'm back to where I was which is confused. And when I've reached out I don't feel their responses were in good faith, bit maybe it's a tone thing: sonmus clearly felt I did similar to them when that wasn't my intention at all.

The question about the repeated language feels more genuine.

[Bellaphant]

Plus the repeated word thing is just ...well, see the post above yours.

This is a lot of words for shrug (look, my post is useless again rad!)

[Bellaphant]

Did my responsses help? My first few posts after their granular read back would've been similar who ever it was about

[Bellaphant]

@ rad, I'm starting to think I'm just not making my thoughts explicit enough for you? 325 definitely suggests I'm leaning interpretation one. I think it's a bit odd you aren't acknowledging that it is a weird occurance though: I'd notice it if someone did it to me, like I've noticed bbt sheeping both of my votes.

P-edit tbf when people town or scum read me it often just comes down to 'vibes'. I think I'm not in your face enough for some people.

[Bellaphant]

@rad, I am conflicted. I quite liked rads catch up in real time on a first look, as it felt flowly and natural. And then I realised that hos reads didn't really massively change throughout: i'm town, Somnus is town, bbt is scum - at least these three were reads he started with. Do you think he's making the shoe fit? Compare for example his mentions of Spartan to your catch up.

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, yes, I meant vasex, I haven't had coffee yet

[Bellaphant]

@vasex, talk me through that?

[Bellaphant]

I wanted rad, or anyone really, to respond. You kind of have!

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: vasex


The little changes in reads aren't massively convincing to me and I find the readlist underwhelming. It really feels like it's come from 'how can I orient the whole game to have bbt scum' but without picking up on any of the weird things. There's also bit a huge amount of questions - I'd expect more, 'what did you mean here' or 'has this changed' or 'so....' from a read through. Even the most recent question, 'why not scum team' is focused on this tunnel vision.

I think I'd be more ok with shrugging it off if there wasn't a bit of pressure on the bbt slot already.

[Bellaphant]

I'm not sure. The thing with rad felt weird, but they reacted simulae to the post of mine they didn't like (`i wish they'd followed up with me but that's personal). I can't work out it that kind of weird emotional reaction is more likely from town or scum.

Them and rad both seem to post quite differently between posts, so I respond better to some than others.

I'm underwhelmed by whiskey delta but fond, probably unreasonably, of cheap.

[Bellaphant]

I'd like somnus to respond to you.

[Bellaphant]

Somnus (And you) are slots I'd feel better sorting with more information. You aren't town for me yet. I don't think he's the kind to be spooked by what would be an obvious 'pressure' vote.

[Bellaphant]

On the whole Vasex thing thing though, I do have a thought to add.

Bella was very quick to shut down that push from Somnus on Vasex. I don't like to do scum teams on D1 but I can absolutely see Bella not being on board with that plan from Vasex and not wanting it to be the starting point of the game.

As I said at the time, the shut down from Bella set off a red flag for me.

I am so bored of this.

Vasex made a stupid joke. You know spending a whole day phase talking about something that is the square root of fuck all is really unhelpful for town. In fact you almost say it yourself here: now the replacement is focusing on it on post 500 and something.

Also, why would I be the voice in the wilderness about vasex's catch up, which you /agree with/?? If he's my scum partner? I'm more likely to be somnus's scum partner from that interaction.

You wonder why I don't town read you. Either you are jumping at shadows or you can't keep a consistent read/reason for nore than a few posts. It's ridiculously scummy.

[Bellaphant]

Oh, yeah, that's a real thing .also, a big change is the pronoun field too.

[Bellaphant]

and me also is town for him...

wd, where are scums for you?

[Bellaphant]

Eh, that usually involves a fair bit of compliance from town though. For all the scare mongering about e-1 we've not got close to intent to hammer once. This is way overdue now.

Reads: rad, cheapside
Spartan, whiskey, bbt, corn
Vasex

...I forgot somnus existed. That's not a great town indicator


P-edit that's been vasex's beat post in a while.

[Bellaphant]

Eh, I could wagon two of those three.

[Bellaphant]

Two thoughts I had while cooking:

Spartan remembering my name, even though we didn't play together, is odd. Sounds like the kind of thing you discuss in a scum PT?
Although somnus comes in with bursts of energy and aggression, they aren't contributing a huge amount to the flow of the thread. As I said, I basically forgot then in my readslist.

[Bellaphant]

I know, I keep coming back to that but then going 'hmm'. Compare to rad, who I wobbled on and just town binned.

I know, but I don't think there's much harm in these wagons? You've been on most of them (so have I, I don't usually throw my vote around this much) but town hasn't exactly been here consistently to ever threaten a hammer. And me and you seem to be the only people wanting to end the day phase!

[Bellaphant]

The quality of newbie games has definitely got better since I was a newbie, but the game length extending is now seen as a 'good thing'. I got scum read in the spec thread in my newbie for wanting day one over after ten pages but I swear I picked that up from players like Thor.

[Bellaphant]

Considering how few posts cheap has, they were on basically all of the e-2 wagons yesterday. It's almost a vote every two posts.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I was considering that but feels a bit hasty

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: cheapside

Tbf the vasex slot was just anti town but we aren't going to get anything from vca on that one specifically

[Bellaphant]

Cheap, a lot of those conclusions seemed detached from the rest of the read as well: you spend a huge amount of words to call bbt null, a fairly big amount to call corn null when it's fairly negative, and basically neutral about me to come out with what looks like your biggest scum read.

Your read on me is even more divorced from your play when I was one of the four eligible slots you didn't vote for oe pressure yesterday.

[Bellaphant]

You seem to have missed my point, cheap: none of your focus was on me yesterday. Reads don't just flip overnight, unless there was a surprising elim (there wasn't) or a surprising nk - this nk was a tad surprising but actually the slot was super town by the end of the day.

So your read doesn't feel genuine. Even when pushed, you aren't pointing to Scummy stuff I've done (the repeated phrase was weird, I haven't seen it beforeb - and it enables me to have a decent conversation about it with rad, which is also a lot of what my posting is , starting conversation. ) Bbt will tell you that I've said I sort people better directly in a 1 on 1 response than I do in the whole thread: it's why I often ask for questions, something else you haven't really done to me.

Here's a question: what would I be doing 'better' as scum? Pushing more people? Making better cases??

The point about your words is interesting, because again, it looks fabricated. The thing about non fabricated stuff is that it flows. Writing a lot fo words to justify basically nothing doesn't really make sense, which matches the rest of my issue with your day one and early day two.

[Bellaphant]

If I was going to write a reads list, the player I'd talk most about is bbt, and hilariously I'd still come out with '???'

But this makes sense for me, from my read yesterday but also our history together. I know he's good at scum, I'm surprised he's not pushing me as much as he normally does, I'm a bit worried he's asking for my opinion/reaching out to me so frequently in a pockety way. Him not being the nk doesn't mean anything, as this was not a widely town read slot.

[Bellaphant]

Corwind's read on sonmus flipped overnight but it does look like it's in reaction to the elim (rad said what scum would do), although they are suddenly worried about sonmus' bbt tunnel

@cor, when did the tunnel start to worry you? 731 was pretty late in the day and he was your biggest tr. Can you talk me through this a bit?

[Bellaphant]

My point is your play should show some flow overall. This means your words match your actions and you at least have an internal narrative. You don't have a good answer for 'cheap used 50% of his posts to be on leading wagons', or 'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game', which is not a posting style issue. It's funny to me that instead I've managed to reduce the great editor to 'kinda silly'.

You've not engaged with the core of what I said since we started having this chat.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I'll respond later. This game is no fun.

[Bellaphant]

@rad, explain the cheap thoughts to me? Coz I had a fairly irrational but strong tr on them at the end of the day but then I looked their votes, and then their reads post.

Looking at the reasoning on the votes on vasex is probably somewhat worth it.

[Bellaphant]

Re: vasex, I voted as their read lis/ catch up didn't show progression, they stayed on as the responses to questions were poor. I could've been persuaded on another wagon mid the 600 post mark, but bbt seemed very against other wagons forming (the votes I could've considered were on at least one slot that hadnt been wagoned), and then vasex blew up the thread. Obviously there should've been a claim.

Like I said earlier, I'm not sure the vasex wagon is the best place for info because I think the slot needs reporting. That's when I went looking at the other big wagons and notices the cheap vote pattern.

[Bellaphant]

Whiskey is just town, that's nice.

[Bellaphant]

Probably, but I've got my eye on you. I also like that your ego hasn't changed: here's some wifom, I wouldn't have nk'ed you as scum ;p

[Bellaphant]

That's my pool too, bbt. I'd be happier doing cheap or corn

[Bellaphant]

? Can you clarify with some more words?

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: corwin

E-1

[Bellaphant]

? Can you clarify with some more words?

I'm not sure what else you want me to say, I've been sleeping like trash the last three days and I spent this morning trying to make my insides my outsides, and I mixed up two players trying to post through it. Spartan starting jumping on BBT at like 268 with a pretty omgus you put me at e-1 thing and then literally sat on that all day long. I just went with what was in my head instead of actually looking at my notes, and got Somnus and Spartan mixed up, so 797-813 just don't make sense.

Plus this rad, I am not comfy with this at all.

[Bellaphant]

I said vca-ing particularly on vasex was a bit useless, as I legit think the slot needs reporting. I also said it was useful in terms of looking at who was on a lot of wagons (me, bbt, but also surprisingly cheap)

I also don't think there's masses to say about the nk as it was a really widely tr slot. I think the only more tr slot was WD.

[Bellaphant]

....I mean the more actove people are voting and bbt will vote anything that loves but yes.

Yeah, I think I said earlier there was a point I probably could have unvoted and been happier with a vote on ...I can't recall right this sec, probably cor or somnus, but then I checked in and vasex was blowing up.

I really like rads posting today, them and whiskey are the 'town'

[Bellaphant]

@rad, explain the cheap thoughts to me? Coz I had a fairly irrational but strong tr on them at the end of the day but then I looked their votes, and then their reads post.

Looking at the reasoning on the votes on vasex is probably somewhat worth it.

@bbt stop thinking my thoughts.

[Bellaphant]

The thing I understand least about sonmus' post is why, again, they talk about elim-ing sonmus. They did this day one as well, to prove vasex was scum (which, well, that didn't work).

I don't feel like Spartan ended the day scum reading me.

The other thing I don't get is: why does scum Bella make her doubts about scum!bbt so clear? I know distancing is a thing but like....you've read bbt. Do you not think that, if we're both scum, we don't just agree to town read the fuck out if each other? Plus, I'd never want us this closely linked by vca.

Ugh, somnus's post is so full of bsd takes but I can't work out if they are wxummg bad takes.

[Bellaphant]

....you know, I've been totally gaslit. 'this is what you get when you are on every e-1 wagon': I've just checked my iso and I was on 2. Which may be 'every' , but is also....2. one of which went through foe reasons discussed ad naseum already. I make four vores yesterday: RVs, which I then keep on when I find sonmu scummy and move off when they talk to me, a shitty pressure vote on msq, Spartan, and vasex.

Plus, 282-293 (Ish) are all discussions of the fact that I (and possibly bbt) miscounted the votes on Spartan, as there was still an RVs vote for his replacement.

@somnus: was I lying when I said I had miscounted? In your opinion. Was bbt?

[Bellaphant]

I made the same amount of votes as cheap. The thing is, they has less than ten posts and were also on the two 'big wagons'.

The thing is, I don't actually think somnus thinks I'm scum. I'd like to think they are town and I'm just collatoral damage to their bbt read but I also feel really mis-repped by that post. Like...'bella would have inevitably put me at e-1' while I'm saying there are two people I'd want gone over somnus.

[Bellaphant]

With mine and bbts history though, Its the choice I would make. Course it's wofom but we do have history

I haven't got a clue re: somnus, that's obvious from my response. He's got motivation to do what he did as either, and there's stuff he said that makes sense but an awful lot that doesn't.

I read people better one on one. Id like somnus to respond to my response res

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, I was out all day yesterday and then incredibly drunk. I did read some, And skim read this morning: I really liked cheap's post, even though it was quite anti!Bella, which has given me pause.
The other thing giving me pause is bbt. It's a weird world where a lot of 'teams' look possible with bbt, which is making me wonder about flipping him even though I'm not 100% convinced of my read. But then ..if he flips green, we're down a strong player.

The frustrating thing is bbt keeps thinking like me . There was a point where I flipped back to rad, as their jump on me seemed opportunistic, but then nah, they are actually working towards a solve, which is ..bbts thought process.

My strongest scum read is still in corwin. Both somnus and cheap play very different to me - they aren't here to bounce ideas off of and I find that incredibly hard to get reads from. But somnus hasnt responded really to me or bbt. Even if is convinced we are scum, and therefore beyond responding to, the pro town thing is still to try.


More in depth stuff after a nap, maybe

[Bellaphant]

Hey corwin, I'm around (Ish) if you have any thoughts to throw at me?

[Bellaphant]

@rad, newbie 2091 and 2094 are my recent newbies. If you want a scum game, I honestly think it's been years.

[Bellaphant]

Bbt, should've clarified: I would hammer you at deadline. In my heart I think you are town but I am so tin hatted about you. In my most recent newbie, Luke kept saying these things that I was like 'yes! This is my thoughts' ...
And he was scum!!

[Bellaphant]

Also,. even bbt flipping red OR green doesn't really clear anyone or massively indicate anyone. I think elim-ing in the pool that me and bbt have suggested gives more info.

[Bellaphant]

@corewin, because he is responding to a bunch of stuff the way I am, and I know I'm town. Plus I know we can work well together.

I'll read the next page now..

[Bellaphant]

I don't want to vote somnus until they respond to my response to their case.

[Bellaphant]

That makes sense, rad.

[Bellaphant]

What weirds me out is somnus said the same thing when pressured about vasex, who flipped town.

[Bellaphant]

If that’s how you feel: I’ll make you and everyone else a deal once everyone has entered the game.

We vote me out Day 1. After I flip green, we (the still living town)at least drop the ridiculous idea that lying is “too scummy to be scum” and start at least considering that the worst case scenario of flipping a player who is clearly going to be negative town utility and has no problem lying as town...is far from a harmful mislim if said-player does turn up town.

If that’s how you feel: I’ll make you and everyone else a deal once everyone has entered the game.

We vote me out Day 1. After I flip green, we (the still living town)at least drop the ridiculous idea that lying is “too scummy to be scum” and start at least considering that the worst case scenario of flipping a player who is clearly going to be negative town utility and has no problem lying as town...is far from a harmful mislim if said-player does turn up town.

To add to this, after we wagon me off for catching someone lying on page 1, look to the people who immediately white-knighted Vasex. In the event he eventually flips town, the people who quickly changed the subject and are clinging to “too scummy to be scum” are likely to have 1 scum in them that was looking for fake town-Cred down the line. So let’s hopefully get those last two players into the game, wagon me off, and reference these two posts as my legacy, please. Thanks.

This was like....page 3??

[Bellaphant]

Also, setting up that vasex lim by post 70. But it was cheap who hammered with similar reasoning.

In trying to work out if corwind's frustrated post is scummy or town.

[Bellaphant]

Their question to me was quite poor though. Considering they 'cant read me'

[Bellaphant]

Please don't hammer until somnus responds. If they post without addressing issues, fine

[Bellaphant]

...you know, that rant about my last newbie sure does sound like it comes from someone who has never played town....

P-edit, rad said it better.

[Bellaphant]

The thing is, I really don't think somnus is processing - I just talked about Luke that game and how it's impacting my bbt read and they don't....care.

[Bellaphant]

Fuck it, intent.

[Bellaphant]

I'd like whiskey to sense check.

[Bellaphant]

I know somnus isn't going to engage with me either way

[Bellaphant]

I have a post I want to write for cheap, it just takes a bit of time.

But I have tried to enagge with both aonmus and corwin..somnus did not respond well and corwin asked me a really basic question, after saying he couldn't read me.

[Bellaphant]

Hey, cheap.

I keep saying the thing about your day one voting because other people keep bringing it up as being this massively scummy thing, while ignoring you doing the same thing - as town this would raise alarm bells for me whether i was the one being posted about or ignored - why doesn't it for you?

Re: Spartan, I keep saying I get reads from interactions. How you interact with people should let you know where you stand: I find you and somnus difficult to read as you don't post 'in real time'. With Spartan, i can't see much as a scum read in their interactions with me - especially when they mention bbt night be pocketing me. When we have a scum flip, I often go back to see a pattern in interaction.

(If I make too many spelling msktakes, it's probably the middle of the night and I'm feeding a baby). I'm not 'panicked' in these posts, I'm responding as thoughts come to me..

I felt somnus' representations of the wagons was awful - I literally went back to check my votes (@rad, I think this is where 'gaslighting' felt like an ok word choice - he made it seem like a terrible thing.)

I'd really like it if you asked me some questions/gave me some direct thoughts to work with. I'll even spell check my response

Oh, also, UNVOTE:

[Bellaphant]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p7081642 if anyone cares! I was scum with bbt. I legit don't remember being scum much later than this.

[Bellaphant]

Hi!

I find cheap mostly scummy, although their last big post I did start to see some things I could call 'town'.
My tldr - their massive proportion of posts: votes day one (which is very different to today)
- on the two e-1 wagons but got no pressure for it
- their day two start reads make no sense. They scum read me? That was...not in evidence at all. When challenged, I didn't get a response that made sense
- isn't massively pushing anyone today?
-There's a weird vibe from somnus, cheap and corwin that me and you / other people are 'bad/doing it wrong'. But all three slots can't be scum.
- will not engage in a back and forth with me. But see previous point
- plays/writes in a way that I find hard to read/would be more likely to scum read no matter what.

[Bellaphant]

I find it very hard to town read somnus when none of the follow up is there: he's fixated on me being shit town in the last newbie, but the newbie before that we had a 'perfect' game and I was on both scum elims. I've tried talking to somnus about Luk ewarm in my last game, and how it impacts my read on you ..nothing. I've asked them about the e-2 mistake, which I do still think is important - if people want to scum read you for e-1, then they have to decide whether you knew it was e-1, nothing. Even the fact I've bought up he played the elim me gambit for vasex and was wrong... nothing.

There have been bits of both cheap and somnus I could town read but then it gets drowned out.

Corwin is still a huge pile of null to me, which is worrying.

[Bellaphant]

Explain the bait thing?

Ugh, 1093 is tonally genuine.

[Bellaphant]

Rad does occasionally worry me but I'm not lim-ing that slot today. I think they need a re-read tomorrow.

I think somnus is checked out generally though so I don't think the gambit would have worked, sorry.

Is rad your top town read? Why? Is there anything that is a red flag at all in their iso?

[Bellaphant]

No worries, night.

[Bellaphant]

I think any town points got trashes when he spent 100s of words basically calling everyone rubbish - where's the town motivation?

[Bellaphant]

So? It's a bit of a nail in the coffin for me, but it feels like you've been trying to move off him ever since that post, which just feels weird.

[Bellaphant]

I dunno, feels like the town got behind a somnus elim and then he dropped out of your lim pool. I know you feel differently about that one post but I'm not sure it saves the whole of... everything

[Bellaphant]

We still have time to hear from whiskey before the hammer. (intent, again)

[Bellaphant]

There is definitely enough stuff in rad's iso to create a read on them. Like, most of it is town but there's definitely some red flags to which you could apply pressure if you wanted to.

[Bellaphant]

If the question is 'who is looking to 'solve', then Im starting to think cheap is actually bottom of my list. I think I've been a bit influenced by bbt's argument about somnus' 'theory'....it at least feels like it could come from something genuine.

[Bellaphant]

^ good question

[Bellaphant]

Hey rad, I thought you found me fairly scummy still?

In my heart bbt Is town, because we've shared a lot of thought processes. I'm a bit paranoid, especially after Luke, and I will reread rad/bbt tomorrow to sense check

[Bellaphant]

Huh. We need to hit scum today.

If bbt is town scum can coordinate a hammer and we've lost.

[Bellaphant]

Also, seeing as the other newbie is over, I was convinced bbt was scum because of his push on alianna. I was wrong! I was on greeting though.

[Bellaphant]

Somnus is going to auto vote bbt I think, but unless the scum team is you/somnus that should be ok.

[Bellaphant]

You and corwin. Or, worst case scenario, somnus and corwin, which I can't rule out and your vote makes me nervous for those reasons.

[Bellaphant]

Hey rad, I thought you found me fairly scummy still?

In my heart bbt Is town, because we've shared a lot of thought processes. I'm a bit paranoid, especially after Luke, and I will reread rad/bbt tomorrow to sense check

I don't think I got a response to this?

[Bellaphant]

About bussing, or something else?

[Bellaphant]

I'm not voting yet.

[Bellaphant]

I don't think there's a world in which people can think I'm paired with somnusnor corwin anyway?

[Bellaphant]

Is unvote now rad, as we can't discount corwin/somnus

[Bellaphant]

This doesn't individually clear anyone, although it would be funny if I was bbts scum partner trying really hard not to bus for kudos right now.

[Bellaphant]

We just cleared what 3/25s of scum pairings....

[Bellaphant]

Not massively.

I think the scum team has at least one of them it in. I'm not convinced sonnusnl doesn't just vote bbt here anyway.

[Bellaphant]

It's easy for me to say that scum Bella just hammers scum bbt here but actually that's optimal play - all I needed to say was I reread overnight, rad is my top town read, drop that hammer, nk rad and then vote somnus tomorrow.

Like, that's just optimal.

[Bellaphant]

Pocketing?

Nah I'd expect scum!bbt to be bussed here and for me to be left in lylo with someone who 'pushed' bbt, me with all the 'links_ to him and havw town make the wrong choice

[Bellaphant]

In fact, whiskey literally said it in the post rad quotes. So. Like, the answer is...two posts above your question

[Bellaphant]

It's not both of them. I think the easiest explanation of somnus is that they are town?

The more I think about rads vote...like, we don't 'deserve' to lose if bbt is scum, we lost our pr early and it's been a bit of a weird game. Being willing to risk the game feels very opposite to somnus' response.

[Bellaphant]

1126 and then 1128 worry me, more about corwin though. Like...that's not even a good question, Ans it's literally just been answered, and the answer is also obvious?

I don't think corwin has asked me anything that's not about you.

[Bellaphant]

Actually it might be both of them. Sorry, it's too hot to think

[Bellaphant]

...I totally believe somnus has alarms set tho

[Bellaphant]

Hmm VCa time?

Rad (3) - green, green, ?
Counter, bbt - green, .

Spartan - green, ? ?
Counter bbt - green, green,

Vasex ?, ? ? Green, ?
Counter bbt - green, ?

Somnus - ? ? ?

Cheap green, ? ? ?

Well, that hasn't helped.

[Bellaphant]

The two most Town read people got killed. It's not even a nka thing

[Bellaphant]

Ahaha I multiplied 5*5 but that's not how probability works.

@somnus, trust me, I am considering it more today than I was yesterday. A lot. I've also decided you could be town, which is also a surprise.

[Bellaphant]

It was partly the vca that looked awful - every time we've wagoned dead town you were the counter.

[Bellaphant]

That is the flip side - you are town And at least scum is basically perma voting you. It's not like any of the wagons were 'pure'

[Bellaphant]

I think i want corwin first? Somnus day three, as I said, just looks town. Corwind's questions to me continue to look disinterested in actually solving - especially the 'why are you alive: question.

[Bellaphant]

Bella - Somnus no
Bella - Rad no
Bella - Corwin no
Bella - BlueBlood
Somnus - Rad no
Somnus - Corwin no
Somnus - BlueBlood
Rad - Corwin
Rad - BlueBlood
Corwin - BlueBlood

If we believe somnus about the hammer (I do whether he's town or scum), then our viable teams are -
Bella/bbt
Somnus bbt
Rad corin
Rad bbt
Corwin bbt

Huh. That's a lot of bbt. If in right (I could have gone wrong) then bbt is just 80% likely to flip scum? Even if we take out me/bbt, it's still 75%.

[Bellaphant]

It was very rough and ready but like...no denying bbt was the counter wagon. Can't see the scum motivation in my vca just not being up to standard

[Bellaphant]

Tbf rad your progression on me is sorta confusing and it's one of the main things that I find suspicious. But then, your hop on me day two was so scummy for very little /reason/

[Bellaphant]

Also, rad seems to be arguing somnus!town so we should be safe with a corwin vote? I think it clarifies a few things.

[Bellaphant]

Don't trust me. Read my play.Read my play.

Rad is my top town read, yes. There are certain features of his play that are simply not scum. An example, but not the only one, is that handing his vote over to someone like he did earlier is just objectively too bad to be scum in any reality I belong in.

There are a couple of others I don't want to comment on right now

, but he's practically turned himself into an IC as far as I'm concerned. If I'm duped by this and in some fantasy there's a Rad/* team then we're just losing right now.

I'll go ahead and comment on them now. The main part of me thinking Rad is/was town is the glib self-disinterest he had made me think it was returning/rusty town and was straight up just too unaware to be scum faking it. That's a complete 180 from how he's playing today, which entirely negates my read on him, and bugs the hell out of me. The all too sheepish "Whiskey, you take responsibility for my vote" and then "Bella, what do we do?!" act doesn't match the rest of his behavior right now.

You say "This game is probability based" Externally 4/7 of the remaining team combos have BBT in them. If "you" are town, 3/4 of them have BBT in them. From my perspective half of them have YOU in them. I said, exactly "the closest person to confirmed scum" and you want to twist that around to be me saying he's confirmed, and then telling

me

to look at the probabilities that you're conveniently ignoring.

> I want town!Corwin to sit back and really consider what's going on.

Yeah, the same shit I was doing when Bella got it stuck in her head I'm probably scum, right? While I was re-reading the thread, and BBT/Somnus. "Corwin, just sit back, relax, it'll hurt less."

Also, I'm not arguing with the conclusion of your logic. It's the incorrect premise that we should assume you

and

Somnus are town so that Bella/BBT can conveniently take me to -1 and it's so safe because you are so incredibly obvtown it's worth risking the entire game on. There is no way in hell that's a town move. A town player looking at probability and logic would never do something like this.

It's not the conclusion of the argument that's wrong, it's that the entire argument is wrong because it's built on the obviously false premise that everyone can just assume you're town because you rode your mostly-harmless town act into ELo and nobody should question it now.

What's weird is that rad's approach to me seems to change whether they think they can get my vote, or not. Earlier I felt a bit manipulated by bbt but this day phase rad's play just feels very 'setting the narrative' which is nearly always scum.

The reluctance to vote corwin is the most Sus though, but I'm not even sure why? Town! Rad shiuld know rads town, they seem to 100% believe somnus is town and realistically with the bbt hammer sitch I basically have to be town - no way on earth does scum Bella not position that day better, hammer scum!bbt and then leave Bella, somnus and corwin in elo.

So the sudden turn to 'but we still have to vote bbt' feels very wierd, but if they are scum, surely they'd be going along with it? Even if corwin was their scum partner, I still feel they should've been ok voting there. Scum rad elims me tonight and goes elo with bbt and somnus and just needs to ride the cross vote.

Rads position around the corwin vote doesn't look great from town or scum here.

Any one got any insight?

[Bellaphant]

Don't trust me. Read my play.Read my play.

Rad is my top town read, yes. There are certain features of his play that are simply not scum. An example, but not the only one, is that handing his vote over to someone like he did earlier is just objectively too bad to be scum in any reality I belong in.

There are a couple of others I don't want to comment on right now

, but he's practically turned himself into an IC as far as I'm concerned. If I'm duped by this and in some fantasy there's a Rad/* team then we're just losing right now.

I'll go ahead and comment on them now. The main part of me thinking Rad is/was town is the glib self-disinterest he had made me think it was returning/rusty town and was straight up just too unaware to be scum faking it. That's a complete 180 from how he's playing today, which entirely negates my read on him, and bugs the hell out of me. The all too sheepish "Whiskey, you take responsibility for my vote" and then "Bella, what do we do?!" act doesn't match the rest of his behavior right now.

You say "This game is probability based" Externally 4/7 of the remaining team combos have BBT in them. If "you" are town, 3/4 of them have BBT in them. From my perspective half of them have YOU in them. I said, exactly "the closest person to confirmed scum" and you want to twist that around to be me saying he's confirmed, and then telling

me

to look at the probabilities that you're conveniently ignoring.

> I want town!Corwin to sit back and really consider what's going on.

Yeah, the same shit I was doing when Bella got it stuck in her head I'm probably scum, right? While I was re-reading the thread, and BBT/Somnus. "Corwin, just sit back, relax, it'll hurt less."

Also, I'm not arguing with the conclusion of your logic. It's the incorrect premise that we should assume you

and

Somnus are town so that Bella/BBT can conveniently take me to -1 and it's so safe because you are so incredibly obvtown it's worth risking the entire game on. There is no way in hell that's a town move. A town player looking at probability and logic would never do something like this.

It's not the conclusion of the argument that's wrong, it's that the entire argument is wrong because it's built on the obviously false premise that everyone can just assume you're town because you rode your mostly-harmless town act into ELo and nobody should question it now.

What's weird is that rad's approach to me seems to change whether they think they can get my vote, or not. Earlier I felt a bit manipulated by bbt but this day phase rad's play just feels very 'setting the narrative' which is nearly always scum.

The reluctance to vote corwin is the most Sus though, but I'm not even sure why? Town! Rad shiuld know rads town, they seem to 100% believe somnus is town and realistically with the bbt hammer sitch I basically have to be town - no way on earth does scum Bella not position that day better, hammer scum!bbt and then leave Bella, somnus and corwin in elo.

So the sudden turn to 'but we still have to vote bbt' feels very wierd, but if they are scum, surely they'd be going along with it? Even if corwin was their scum partner, I still feel they should've been ok voting there. Scum rad elims me tonight and goes elo with bbt and somnus and just needs to ride the cross vote.

Rads position around the corwin vote doesn't look great from town or scum here.

Any one got any insight?

[Bellaphant]

I'm not hammering right now, thinking

[Bellaphant]

Hey somnus, wanna hammer with me?

(Joke, posting to show a clear)

[Bellaphant]

I mean I've gained very little from this - I know I'm town and this day phase I was pretty sure somnus was.

Should everyone unvote now or are we still waiting for something?

[Bellaphant]

Who's scum, somnus? It's not me and it's not you.

[Bellaphant]

Cool, but who's actually scum? Bbt and? Saying it 'could be you' isn't helpful

[Bellaphant]

I think we vote rad

[Bellaphant]

I can wait

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, I've already identified bbt as Luke in terms of 'sharing my thinking'

[Bellaphant]

What do you want to talk to me about, somnus? Think I'm delaying the inevitable here.

[Bellaphant]

Town bbt and town corwin should be shouting for rads death, right? Whereas I am still too cautious of rad and somnus has basically the same odds for everyone.


Why do you feel it's led to a loss, rad?

[Bellaphant]

That makes sense. You understand I feel a bit...rail roaded though? But railroading me is your winning move as town and scum.

I'm not even sure what somnus wants to talk about, so I'm waiting til our times align.

[Bellaphant]

Hey bbt, it kind of feels like you gave up a bit the minute I realised you were the counter to every dead town wagon.

I honestly think town bbt should just be voting rad here, I can't work out why you aren't?

P-edit, what somnus said. I'll let bbt answer

[Bellaphant]

Like, corwin should be and is voting rad.

[Bellaphant]

Town corwin, anyway.

It sucks I am most confirmed but have the most options!

[Bellaphant]

There is no risk, right. I agree.

Again, it literally makes 0 difference.

? Can you rephrase?

[Bellaphant]

[
Somnus - Rad
Rad - Corwin
Rad - BlueBlood
Corwin - BlueBlood

[Bellaphant]

Oh yeah, I am so paranoid of rad laughing at me in the scum thread.

[Bellaphant]

A lot of logic and reason points to bbt being today's vote. Four things stop me:

Rads earlier shifting read on me
Rads reluctance to vote corwin earlier when it should have been fine from their pov
The fact that rad actually outweighs bbt in My choices!
The fact that bbt had similar thoughts to me earlier.

But none of these are conclusive. Also, if somnus is scum, then...well done I guess!

[Bellaphant]

I have, I read...three of them? I was right 2/3.

You are also a pretty decent scum player, love.

[Bellaphant]

I want rad to explain why they didn't want to vote corwin a bit ago, when I clearly did?

[Bellaphant]

I'm not picking up what you want from that?

[Bellaphant]

I could do that now?

[Bellaphant]

I mean us both putting our vote on bbt is functionally the same thing? Either it's rad/corwin or bbt/corwin?

[Bellaphant]

Does it still make more sense to vote corwin?

I feel it's a lot of pressure on me, and as you reliably informed me, im shit

[Bellaphant]

Let's vote corwin? From my pov it's statistically more likely

[Bellaphant]

For me, corwin red, u nk, means the choice is obvious tomorrow. Today I have like, two too many choices, so it feels like there is more room for errors? Does that make sense?

[Bellaphant]

Night!

[Bellaphant]

You have to say that though

[Bellaphant]

I think what you said is valid. I'm )0% convinced it just has to be bbt corwin, so you voting there, if it gets a 'clear' is great, and if we are wrong then it's just you and that's still a risk we would've taken This day phase anyway without all the numbers

[Bellaphant]

In ready to just end this, tbf. If voting bbt makes people happier, fine

[Bellaphant]

Considering corwin just isn't here, which isn't townie at all, let's do that first? Tbf if it is just bbt corwin at that point, and I was bbt, I'd just concede

[Bellaphant]

I'll let somnus give his thoughts

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: bbt

You around somnus

[Bellaphant]

Imagine if we'd elimed you over vasex day one tho

[Bellaphant]

It counts. I hope you and somnus aren't just trolling me

[Bellaphant]

I'd like to check he's alive! But yes.

[Bellaphant]

We aren't auto doing today, we are having time to talk.

[Bellaphant]

It's the pro town to do to at least let corwin try and convince me. It's 'doing the research '.

[Bellaphant]

Hi, sorry, I'm really I'll. Content soon.

[Bellaphant]

Corwin, anything to say?

[Bellaphant]

Ish, calling Dr tomorrow for antibiotics! Happy scum day

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: corwin