Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[Spartan117]

Hey Guys good to be back in the game its been a while I was getting the bug and wanted to jump back in.

I have been playing this on and off since 2015, a couple games every 2 years, think my first game was with Bella in 2015 and my second was with our almighty mod Humaneatingmonkey in 2017, so its fair to say im pretty rusty. Tbh I am just glad to be here and dip my toe in the water again.

I need to give the whole thread a more thorough read through but from first glance the Vasex v Somnus convo, I think Vasex's postings have been to obtain reactions and see who bites and how hard. I've seen it before in a previous game different context but same method. I think his method is strange but I think its always useful D1 to get out of the RVS for something like that to happen to push conversation into a more seriously inquisitive direction.

I know it can seem weird for town to intentionally do something that comes across scummy, but imo one of the best ways to hunt scum is to do so via reactions. The trick then is to try and ascertain who is trying to be scummy to gauge reactions and who is being scummy because they actually are.

[Spartan117]

I get a feeling of truthfulness on Somnus's scumhunting pressing on Vasex, one thing Somnus would struggle with being his first townie game is to find legitimate reads.
As scum it doesnt matter if your reads dont actually result in an elim its more about deception and shifting blame or attention elsewhere away from the scum team, town can miselim someone so long as scum keep the attention off themselves.
So when we are town our reads matter more and is then on everyone else to try and distinguish whos reads are trying to scumhunt and whos are casting a shroud or push attention elsewhere.
This is partly why I feel it is more townie to not care if you are scumread and play to get reactions and get reads from people even if it results in you being eliminated because that gives town more to work with Day 2 rather than flat stagnant Day 1 with no leads for Day 2.

Personally I am town leaning Somnus, Vasex and Cheapside.

I am mostly null on the other slots need to spend more time analysing Bella and Toffees posts, I dont see how there is enough to get much of a read from Bosco, Whiskey and Cheapside although I liked Cheapsides posts. I felt a townie lean on Italiano but im not so sure on his replacement Toffee

Currently I am happy to put my vote on VOTE: Rad

[Spartan117]

Rads #160 & #161 he spends a lot of time defending himself more worried about others opinion on him which is more of a scumtell. I personally didnt like his #91 on the surface it can look townie to try and get engagement from other players but its easy for scum to do when general engagement is low. Posting frequently doesnt indicate town, scum both want to go under the radar but they also want to dictate the conversation and point away from themselves and their partner.

I didn't like the questions trying to get everyone to tell you what time they are available can easily lead to calling someone out when they werent here at the time they had originally said they would be available which could be down to anything irl not just that they are lurking etc.

Additionally asking a generic question to everyone on who has had the most relevant input and least relevant input so far imo is trying to get others to do their scumhunting for them, rather than saying to someone what do you think of this post in question and does it effect your read on them. I just dont like asking who has the least relevant input especially so early on in the game when some people have barely posted it just seems lazy to me.

I'm gonna say this now, I think there is 1 scum between Rad and BlueBloodedToffee but I dont think they are a scumteam. I dont think Rads first move after some pressure is applied to him is to vote his scumpartner.

[Spartan117]

Rad

Are you trying to get Vasex to put Rad to

E-1

so your scumbuddy can quickhammer him on accident?

Also your reasoning on scumreading him for your vote is very watery in 168

[Spartan117]

Vasex

: meming but active, helped create content. Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town.

Are you joking about "Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town."?

yeah that sounds suspicious from cheap...

Referring to your 150 was it enough to change your opinion of cheapside potentially see a scum team of Cheapside and BlueBloodedToffee?

[Spartan117]

do you know that voting smb only because he scumreads you and also adding the vote to a bigger wagon - this is scummy thing?

It's very OMGUS isn't it.

[Spartan117]

Rads #160 & #161 he spends a lot of time defending himself more worried about others opinion on him which is more of a scumtell. I personally didnt like his #91 on the surface it can look townie to try and get engagement from other players but its easy for scum to do when general engagement is low. Posting frequently doesnt indicate town, scum both want to go under the radar but they also want to dictate the conversation and point away from themselves and their partner.

I didn't like the questions trying to get everyone to tell you what time they are available can easily lead to calling someone out when they werent here at the time they had originally said they would be available which could be down to anything irl not just that they are lurking etc.

Additionally asking a generic question to everyone on who has had the most relevant input and least relevant input so far imo is trying to get others to do their scumhunting for them, rather than saying to someone what do you think of this post in question and does it effect your read on them. I just dont like asking who has the least relevant input especially so early on in the game when some people have barely posted it just seems lazy to me.

I'm gonna say this now, I think there is 1 scum between Rad and BlueBloodedToffee but I dont think they are a scumteam. I dont think Rads first move after some pressure is applied to him is to vote his scumpartner.

Defending oneself isn't a scum tell. Both town and scum can do that. I think the content of my defense is more important than the fact that I'm defending myself. Your call on the quality of that content but I'm happy with it.

My questions from before were to try to create relevant content. As town you want to get people talking and sharing opinions so you have content to look at then and later in the game. Consistency in your opinions as scum is really difficult because it's not a real opinion, it's manufactured, so getting people to share opinions is important.

I do like how you're at least opening analyzing my posts. You're creating opinions that can be referenced later and inconsistencies in the way you think could be a scum tell. That's really risky as scum.

I agree defending yourself isnt inherently a scumtell but being more concerned about what others think of you and not of your reads is. I agree I think the content is the most important as after a flip for the Day 1 elim and Night 1 night kill thats what is looked at as we know the alignment of them players.

I agree you want to get people talking and sharing opinions but scum find it harder to form and change opinions, its much easier to just lock in a read and tunnel as scum than actually change opinion and re-read everybody.

As town its important we are risky and have an open mind although not to the point we let others influence us and change it for us. Scum dont want to be risky, they want to play it safe if they can and get by on the reads of others as they already know everyones alignment.

[Spartan117]

Not to be all Somnus, but @spartan, can you link me to the newbie we did together? I can't seem to find it.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=61471

I think this is it here although its nothing of note, looking at the actual thread I don't think I was able to participate.

[Spartan117]

Hm. I understand that other games might take up a lot of time, but if mq doesn't have a certain amount of content by end of day, she will be a policy elimination. Lurking is a very powerful scum strategy in low-power setups if town allows it - if you never say anything, there's nothing to vote you out on. Seven days to go though, so not unduly concerned.

I agree with your sentiment here, having someone lurking is unhelpful D1 but late game can be very costly as it is much easier for the scum team to shove on a non-committal player. like you said we have lots of time and I want them to have a chance to comment and share their thoughts, I am interested to see what they think on what has happened so far.

partan,, your posts thus far have consisted of a pointlessly brief summary of the Vasex/Somnus convo 137, lot of noncomittal townreads154 with a vote on Rad, a somewhat repetitive push on Rad 184 with an unexplained statement about rad/blue, a bit of thrown-out speculation you never follow up on 189, a small question 190, a random comment 193, and some very amiable mafia theory with Rad 197.

So the interaction with Rad was useful, as it put them under pressure, but you haven't really done anything else this game except give unprompted mafia theory and look very active. The stronger player you ostensibly think is scum you've left almost entirely alone. I wouldn't call your interactions with Blue scumhunting because you let him ignore you.

Do you plan to actually scumhunt/pressure anyone, VOTE: Spartan117?

The pointlessly brief summary you are referring to was my first post and I think its fair I have a bit of time to read through everything and share my initial thoughts as I process everything, I guess thats just how I process things.

My vote on Rad in my second post was to set up for my follow up explanation of my thoughts on him in 184, but I can see where you are coming from. As regards to 189 and 190 I can't unfortunately force them to respond to me but have intended to follow up when I had time.

The unexplained statement in 184 I left purposefully as I wanted someone to pick up on it. At that moment in time I wasnt too comfortable with what Rad had posted which is what I had pointed out above, since then I have liked more of their posts . I not explained much on my thoughts on BBT as I had not had the time to read through fully in depth although from skimming through their posts a few things felt off, which I will address. What do you think @Cheapside about the interactions between Rad and BBT?

I am surprised you think I've been looking very active, I've felt like I havent been active anywhere near enough, and I'm not afraid to call myself out on that.

I still need to spend more time analysing Bellas posts which I intend to do tomorrow time permitting, and that I dont get eliminated by a quickhammer.

We have another 7 days left of Day 1 so loads of time left, no need for anyone to get trigger happy.

[Spartan117]

I looked through Spartan's posts again.

He's new to the game so hasn't had a chance to play much (7 posts). The guy he replaced made no posts.

He's already given some significant stances (voted me, pressuring BlueBloodedToffee, pressuring Vasex, town read on Somnus)

He's given town more material in 7 posts than Bella has in 23.

Let's say he's scum and survives Day 1. He's already established what kind of input he plans to give to this game. This level of input is really difficult to continue in late game as scum. And @Cheap if your assessment of him is correct, that he's being mostly useless, he won't be able to dig himself out of that.

@Cheap - what do you think of Bella and my read on him? What do you think about changing your vote from Spartan to Bella?

Why do you feel the need to try and defend me so heavily even to the point to ask Cheapside to take their vote off me?

I understand why it is too early for BBT to seem to Scumlock me and want to eliminate me after 7 posts as shown in his 257 below, but at the same time is it also not too soon to have such a strong town read on me after only 7 posts to try and defend me to such a degree to try and get someone else to take their vote off me,

maybe I'm happy here sitting at E-1

sometimes it's nice to live in the danger zone aha

I'm happy for us to lynch Spartan.

[Spartan117]

Hi Spartan,

What are your current thoughts on the game state?

Currently? I think its very interesting you put me to E-1 with this...

VOTE: Spartan

Will provide more soon. Glad to see the game is picking up, from a brief skim it looks like everybody is contributing now. Makes the game a lot easier

[Spartan117]

Alright Bella, I don't understand the progression on Somnus and you didn't respond to my accusation of you trying to prolong RVS but I also don't want to get into it because I think you're probably town and I'm happy for us to lynch Spartan.

You're happy to eliminate someone who has made 7 posts? how very townie of you?

Your votes seem to shift like the wind in a hurricane, I'm not even certain if you yourself know where your next move will be?

Yeah, I get that.

Usually, you get better content from people when they are more likely to feel under pressure to produce something.

Be brave.

I like that you understand the need to apply pressure with votes to get people to produce content which is pretty standard but I don't feel like when you vote you come with any gumption it always seems pretty week and often sheeping on the back of a wagon without any originality of your own.

Mod, can we get a VC on next page please?

You asked our mod here for a Vote count total which you got in (so you cant claim to not know of the vote tally) 179 then after Cheapside voted me with a breakdown of his reasoning in 211
We see Rad vote Bella in 214 and then ask cheapside to change their vote from me to Bella in 220 which while I didn't like I could imagine Bella getting worried about a train forming on her and before Cheapside is able to respond to Rad she votes me with her reasoning being she doesnt get town pings and that my scum read of BBT comes out of nowhere not taking into account it was my second post on the forum. Surely for my scum read to come out of nowhere I would have needed to had frequently posted before and interacted with BBT and my stance on him to suddenly change without any explanation?

he seemed to think there were at least 3 slots scum reading him.

Those three scum reads kinda come out of nowhere too.

Well, vasex's doesn't, but Spartans really seems to.

I then thought it was very interesting that after Bella votes me to build a wagon and get the attention off her, like clockwork BBT jumps on the wagon putting me to E-1 with his post below, baring in mind he had asked for a vote count and waited till cheapside and bella had voted to jump on with again no reasoning, if it was to apply pressure to get someone moving etc fair enough but this is an E-1 post without announcing it hoping someone joins the wagon and accidentily hammers me...

VOTE: Spartan

Will provide more soon. Glad to see the game is picking up, from a brief skim it looks like everybody is contributing now. Makes the game a lot easier

[Spartan117]

I'll wait to see your contributions when you're fully caught up. Vastly underwhelmed, but not surprised, right now.

You're not 1 vote from hammer yet anyway. My vote was 3rd vote I believe.

I am very sorry you are vastly underwhelmed but you cant just put someone to E-1 without announcing it with 7 days left of Day 1, its very lazy behaviour from someone who has played this for 7+ years. You asked for a vote count and then jumped on a wagon trying to go under the radar sheeping Bella.

Whiskey Delta

RVS

Cheapside

Bellaphant

BBT

E-1

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Spartan117]

@ Spartan ?? That's... A whole narrative about people's motivations. Or evidence. Are you implying bbt and me are scum together?

I'm voting you because you are scummy.

P-edit at rad, wow that's some aggression over...not much? I am absolutely happy with my play, im sorting, I'm happy.

Which you based off my scum read on BBT coming out of nowhere when it was my second post? If you genuinely think I am scummy you need to present a better argument than that. and sure nothings off the table, I think it could definitely be possible ScumBella and ScumBBT are a team here, why should it be off the table? anythings possible right? from the perspective of town at least.....

[Spartan117]

Huh, it didn't register that you (Spartan) replaced Jackal who still held an early vote from Whiskey.

But I don't care. You're L-1. So what? Do something.

Sure it didnt, thats why you didnt ask the mod for a vote count before you voted...

If you was genuinely town you would have been more conscious of you putting someone to E-1 without announcing it and realise how scummy that looks, I personally don't care that I am at E-1 for my own sake I just wish town wouldn't be put into the position of losing 7 days worth of information you are happy for them to lose...

If you are actually town you are going to be priority Day 2 elimination bait after you eliminate me Day 1 which throws the game for town, but I'm not too concerned as I am pretty sure by your play you are one of the two scum.

[Spartan117]

I did miss that I put Spartan at e-2, no regrets though

I didn't like your approach to bbt, then I didn't like your catch up, now I really don't like your storytelling. After your catch up it was just you were the least town of the active posters, but your response has been really suspect. Scum want to control the narrative of the game, which is what that post did In spades

So you are fine with BBT putting me to E-1 without announcing it, or were you just not going to address that?

You didnt like my approach on BBT? why was that? please tell me what exactly you didnt like about my approach on BBT???

You can paint my thoughts and observations as storytelling if you would like but do you really think what I am saying right now is controlling the narative of the game, surely scum would want to do so more under the radar, do you honestly think someone at E-1 is controlling the narative? All I did was point out what actually happened with my thoughts on the timing and why it stood out to me, if you are actually town, why are you so worried about me speaking my mind unless there is something to it?

[Spartan117]

You're wrong.

Town are more likely to make careless mistakes than scum are.

Again, length of days doesn't matter. It's the content. The longer the days are the more chance the waters get muddied with nonsense.

15 pages would be a decent sweet spot and we've had a good amount of content from Day One now. I'm ready for Day Two.

I never said what you did was a careless mistake, I am sure it was intentional and you tried to go under the radar without anyone noticing and then claiming innocence after someone hammered me. It's not a mistake just poor attempt to try and get me quickhammered.

We have had 3 posts from mq.bosco and 6 from whiskey delta, multiple requests from others not to end the day early as they are still trying to catch up and here you are eager to end the day, sounds very scummy to me...

Talking about a good amount of content, where is the good amount of content from you? you have produced perhaps 2 posts out of 54 that have some sort of content?

If you really think I am scum who do you think is my scum partner?

[Spartan117]

Would easily be able to say that Cheapside has provided much more content in their 6 posts than you have in 55 actually...

[Spartan117]

UNVOTE:

For all the fear mongering I don’t think I have ever actually seen someone be speed hammered accidentally or otherwise.

I've seen it happen before and it throws games.

[Spartan117]

No, I think it's a bit shit, but it also could have been a mistake, same as mine was. If I didn't know it was e-2, it's just as reasonable that he missed it too.

I felt like the scum reads on bbt piled on pretty quick and yours seemed to have the least behind in..you may say that's because you had less posts in total, but it also seemed a very weird, very quick pile on.

The same way you and rad seemed to have piled on me. I dislike 'bella thought' and 'bella acted' and then seeing things that are totally unrecognisable to me: I don't think that's unreasonable.

@rad, I believe that. It was also, in context, a comment on you doing a 180 on a read based on massively over thinking it, which I think was also pointed out by whiskey delta. It's not s controversial statement.

I simply don't agree, when putting a vote on right after someone else you should always check and make sure you aren't putting them on E-1, while I do also typically put E-2 if my vote is putting someone there, putting someone to E-2 isnt putting someone in range of a quickhammer and thus much worse.

Its not just about less posts in total it was my second post on here as I joined late and had to catch up. So scum reading me purely because I put some feelers out there on a scum read to be the basis of your scum read on me is very weak indeed.

Honestly bella I was town reading you initially from when I was skimming through I still need to read through in more detail but I agreed with what I read from Rad and that along with the coincidence of the votes placed on you to the next page with you jumping on me for a reason of I scum read BBT in my second post... its just fishy.

[Spartan117]

Scum wouldn't be this blatant, right? They wouldn't both pile on at the same time, and re use the literal same words.


Right?

Maybe so obviously not something scum would do, that scum would try and get away with it.

[Spartan117]

Oh my. The appeasement.

I believe Spartan is appealing to your *reasonable* side Bella.

Can we lynch this guy already?

You really just love to prevent conversation don't you, why are you being so Anti-Town? You have some serious tunnel vision goggles on there

I hope it didnt hurt you too much when Whiskey took their RVS vote off me

Like I said already I really don't care if I get Eliminated Day 1 if it provides the necessary means for town to find and convict scum then I'm all for it, in this case I would highly recommend a Day 2 elimination on you BBT, its pretty clear to me you wont be killed Night 1...

Now, I'm done for the day, if I check in and I've been eliminated then so be it, I just hope the others get the chance to share what they wanted before the days out.

[Spartan117]

Scum wouldn't be this blatant, right? They wouldn't both pile on at the same time, and re use the literal same words.


Right?

Maybe so obviously not something scum would do, that scum would try and get away with it.

??? You and rad have both flung the same accusation at me and bbt in the same words. Ive never seen anything like it before. I can't work out what on earth it means though.

....I like bbt better when they are talking to me and rad better when they are not.

Could you like BBT better when they are talking to you because they are trying to pocket you? Just a consideration for Day 2

[Spartan117]

Spartan, you're going to disappear without addressing my accusations to you?

What accusations? saying you have accusations without linking anything or referring be back to anything does nothing....

All of your posts to me are about how much you want to "lynch" me and end the day without any actual reasoning..

I'll wait to see your contributions when you're fully caught up. Vastly underwhelmed, but not surprised, right now.

But I don't care. You're L-1. So what? Do something.

15 pages would be a decent sweet spot and we've had a good amount of content from Day One now. I'm ready for Day Two.

Noooooo Whiskey, why unvote?

You're right. A vote with absolutely no explanation usually flies right under the radar

If you don't think I have provided content, I'm cool with that.

Can we lynch this guy already?

I do have tunnel vision though, I would love to see you lynched in the next 3 pages.

Did I miss something? I dont see you sharing any "accusations" with me? must be in your pt you seem rather blood thirsty to me

[Spartan117]

253 Spartan.

Pretty weak, not much to it is there...

You think I'm scum because

1. I joined the game and started talking theory in my second post as SE into a newbie game?
2. I pointed out in 189 that you was trying to coax a newer player into putting someone to E-1 (notice a trent...) and my genuine concern about your scum buddy quickhammering after, and that I thought your reasoning for your scum read was watery. Did you take it personally?
3. That I sit on same wagon as him (where I was the one who had voted for Rad first...) when I don't like his vote (it was clear that I didnt like the way you voted and jumped on not who you was voting for, and how you was trying to coax a quick elim on page 8!) you say voting is a pretty big deal for scum, is that why you throw your vote around like it doesn't matter to see where it will stick?

And thats it! everything else is about other people, thats enough for you to want to eliminate me and end the day and the discussion as soon as possible?

Pretty poor basis to hold your whole case against me.

[Spartan117]

It's not just talking theory - you actually chose that as the thing to enter the game with. You didn't make 2 or 3 posts addressing game content or generating reads or whatever, you came straight in with theory.

You criticise that my first post wasnt addressing game content or generating reads, although I commented my opinion on the vasex v somnus situation, while your choice of entrance into the game was to ask for someone to tell you who to vote and your follow up posts were about creating wagons and a reluctance to read the content that had already been provided. I understand the need for voting and wagons to create pressure to get clearer reads but it seems much more like you are interested in the eliminating side of wagons over obtaining meaningful reads, hence you being happy to eliminate me being so certain I was scum after only 7 posts...

The trend is building wagons and seeing what happens. It's a good thing for town; not all wagons lead to lynches but the vast majority of them do provide information regardless. Can you imagine how bad a scum team would have to be to 'lol hammer' a wagon in a Newbie game? You'd basically be sacrificing yourself, come on. Try harder.

I can imagine how bad it would look, I've been in that situation before where I was town and somebody lol hammered and he was town, but the person who was coaxing the wagon sliding into the background was the scum in that situation and I missed it, being a new player at the time I refused to consider anyone lol hammering there was not scum. So think of it me trying to learn from my mistakes.

ou threw shade at me and said you disliked my vote. I joined the wagon that you were on and yet you stayed on it? Regardless of what you think about the person I was voting, it should have made you rethink your own vote no?

In that situation there is nothing wrong with me considering Rad scum and also considering you scum, its important for me to keep all options open, what are the motives of every decision by everyone, also because of time restraints I won't always post about everything I see at the time, I may circle back to it and comment on it at a later date, and if someone else has commented on it already and its seen to look scummy like I have just copied someone else then so be it, because while as town I want to be town read, I'm not anywhere near as bothered as if I was scum. People can scum read me for it if you like, it will probably make me town read you, as I get why it can look scummy I'm just not able to comment on everything I see when I see it.

[Spartan117]

Again, this sort of accusation makes me want to SR this slot. In what universe does it make sense for scum to do this? Since you like theory, let me ask How do you think scum would play a situation like this? The game goes beyond D1 and this entire theory is based on the notion the scum, working openly together, end Day early to flip a Townie. And then what? Rely on wifom as a pissed off Town turns on them?

I've seen something very similar play out before. How do you explain BBT wanting me eliminated and to end day 1 after I had made 7 posts and multiple others had posted only a few times?

[Spartan117]

Is OMGUS a scumtell?

Not always but can be in the way it's done, it depends on the context surrounding it.

[Spartan117]

??? You and rad have both flung the same accusation at me and bbt in the same words. Ive never seen anything like it before. I can't work out what on earth it means though.

I think it is more interesting that its a comment made to you Bella and BBT over anything else.

When I wrote it it was something I had meant to put into 294 but forgot so put it in a seperate post after, I dont see how it could be scummy for someone to point out that in their opinion someone who has posted a lot and controlled a lot of the conversation has provided relitivly little compared to someone who has posted only a few times. I've not done the same check on you but if anything it would be more town cred to have done this analysis and review that produce scum reads. On you comment that both myself and Rad has made a very similar comment, even tho might was after I hadn't noticed Rad had made it but its something I would say because

its important to make sure the active posters are actually posting content and not just driving the conversation for their own needs.

[Spartan117]

If you really think I am scum who do you think is my scum partner?

@BBT I don't believe you ever answered my question?

[Spartan117]

I'm gonna say this now, I think there is 1 scum between Rad and BlueBloodedToffee but I dont think they are a scumteam.

why not scumteam? possible

I just felt they were too against each other too early on, which could have been agreed in advance in pt, but in that position I would have wanted to do it later on where it would go under the radar more and not so obvious that it could be questioned. As always anythings on the table I'm just trying to nail down my reads and hopefully we get this replacement soon, the sooner the better so we all get a chance to get a read on the slot.

[Spartan117]

Scum spartan me

What is it specifically that has caused your scum read? I can see you are not 100% convinced.

Not convinced of scum!Spartan either to be fair.

[Spartan117]

I don't think his reads are great as I still have a town leaning read on BBT.

What do you think about BBT wanting to eliminate me and end day 1 after I had made 7 posts?

Alright Bella, I don't understand the progression on Somnus and you didn't respond to my accusation of you trying to prolong RVS but I also don't want to get into it because I think you're probably town and I'm happy for us to lynch Spartan.

After 7 posts?!? Why am I the only one seeing alarm bells?

Huh, it didn't register that you (Spartan) replaced Jackal who still held an early vote from Whiskey.

But I don't care. You're L-1. So what? Do something.

[Spartan117]

Does it help you Spartan if I like your recent posting a lot more and no longer want to lynch you?

My opinion on you wont change based on you no longer wanting to lynch me, like before I didnt think you was scum based on you just wanting to lynch me, it was the way that you did it that I didnt like, I havent felt comfortable with your sheeping on votes and wagons.
I'm not totally sure why you like my recent posting more so than previous I've not been trying to do anything differently.

The most important thing from my opinion, on you no longer wanting to eliminate me is if you are town it enables you to take off the goggles and scum hunt others and form reads on them.
Even if you are or were still scum reading me and think I am one of the scum I just want you to be able to look for the other scum if you are/were certain it is me. Although to look for them without me in mind, as looking at everyone else through spartan tinted glasses will only make it harder for TownBBT as they should know I am not 100% scum.

[Spartan117]

I think I still have some outstanding questions for you too, Rad.

In the meantime until he is able to get back to you I think this is the bulk of what he has said so far, I have yet to go through it myself hoping to give it a better look later tonight or tomorrow.

I held off on my Whiskey post analysis, but I think Spartan is required here.

Spoiler: Spartan Analysis

#137 - hello post, gives a townie read on vasex but not directly, justifies vasex's play with theory
#154 - More theory, but good theory. Pushes for activity. Town read on Somnus, Vasex, Cheap. Vote on me. Overall a very juicy post with a lot of openness.
#184 - He's right, it's easy for scum to call for activity, which I did. However, town can also do that, so it's a tricky read. Me trying to get some commitment to time people will be posting COULD be used as a scum gotcha in the future, so it's reasonable for him to read my move like that. He thinks I'm trying to get others to scumhunt for me but no, that wasn't my intention. However, reasonable read from him. Makes a claim that me and BBT aren't a scum team.
#189 - quick hammer scenario suggested. I'm leaning towards quick hammer not being a big issue like whiskey suggests. But maybe he's experienced it before and it's a legit town based issue for him. I have no experienced this because back in the day we did not have hammer votes, we had end of day votes.
#193 - points out that BBT's vote on me was OMGUS. maybe he's town and thinks that matters, maybe he's scum and wants to push some shade. null
#197 - good technical town comments here, doesn't mean he's town, just means he understands town. null
#260 - nothing
#266 - Pushes that we have lots of time day 1. I read that townie. Wants to see lurker input, which matches my thoughts. Explains his position on me. Pressures Cheap for some more info. Says he will analyse Bella further (DID HE???)
#267 - Thinks I'm defending him. I'm not, and I explained why. Could be town not quite understanding my move here.
#268 - Pressures BBT with a comment
#273 - More pressure on BBT, starting to ramp up that pressure. Quite a run-on-sentence that's hard to follow here, but I think I get it... ends up feeling organic, like whiskey.
#279 - I don't understand what he's saying with his list here. He votes BBT.
#282 - responding to Bella, reasonable response
#287 - This is an interesting take on BBT. Is it an enlightened townie take or a scum take that has the advantage of knowing BBT is town?
#289 - Strong response to Bella, makes some good points IMO
#294 - Attack/defense against BBT. Poses an interesting but not totally useful question. But kinda potentially useful... I dunno
#295 - The "Bella noticed something suspicious" post where he points out a similar observation that I did previously. Looking at it more contextually, it was really an add-on to #294. Not only does it mimic my earlier point, but it feels emotionally like my original point. This one is hard to read.
#296 - nothing
[ I NEED TO REREAD THE FOLLOWING, I'M GETTING TIRED AND WANT TO POST BUT ALSO WANT TO SLEEP ]
#300 - Just reinforcing his BBT scum read with a convo with Bella.
#302 - dunno
#306 - anti-BBT
#307 - anti-BBT
#312 - anti-BBT
#318 - fuck it will read later

LOL I'm going to pull a Somnus and say Spartan's play here feels like my better scum play from 8 years ago. That said, fuck it, I'm actually convinced by it and it feels legit. It feels organic, Spartan's emotions seem to be kicking in in a townie sort of timing. He's putting in some serious effort into his reads and makes them publically available.

At this point, I'm not going to be voting Spartan D1. My scum read on him is gone. He's null leaning town. I don't think his reads are great as I still have a town leaning read on BBT.

Good night.

[Spartan117]

Does it help you Spartan if I like your recent posting a lot more and no longer want to lynch you?

The most important thing from my opinion, on you no longer wanting to eliminate me is if you are town it enables you to take off the goggles and scum hunt others and form reads on them.
Even if you are or were still scum reading me and think I am one of the scum I just want you to be able to look for the other scum if you are/were certain it is me.

Although to look for them without me in mind, as looking at everyone else through spartan tinted glasses will only make it harder for TownBBT as they should know I am not 100% scum.

This is interesting - is this not exactly what Vasex is doing? Basing all of his reads/contributions through the lens of Scum!BBT. Are you only concerned with me doing it because I was scum reading you or is it a general disliking of that style?

I think it is not good practice for town to do in general, but sometimes it can cause doubts and pull you away from an original scum read, say if you find two others that you think are scummy but wouldnt work with the original gut scum read, so its difficult. It is something that works more with evaluating scum teams rather than just looking at each person individually on if they are scum or not. I am someone who likes to evaluate potential for scum teams all the way through which I know not everyone likes. I like to see if when brought up it changes any interactions between the two I mention, nothing obvious of course just subtle differences. Its all about wading through the text for the snippets of information.

[Spartan117]

But you have no problem with Vasex doing it?

Is that because he town reads you?

Oh I do, I dont like it, but it's not something that I'm gonna let be the sole basis of a read after all I could definitely see town do this.

As someone that doesn't like to match scum partners on day 1 do you think it's something more likely to be done by Scum or Town or do you think its null, I'm interested in your opinion

[Spartan117]

If you join and Rad joins, we could have another L-1 situation.

How exciting!

Im getting more and more of this being your style of play, I'm gonna need to check out some of your past games to see if the play style matches up.

[Spartan117]

ugh
maybe im wrong in smth
but i'm too lazy even to think about it
i will update my view from some other perspectives emm in a couple of calendar days
too busy tomorrow

Are you and cheapside both going on the same holiday away together?

[Spartan117]

On the whole Vasex thing thing though, I do have a thought to add.

Bella was very quick to shut down that push from Somnus on Vasex. I don't like to do scum teams on D1 but I can absolutely see Bella not being on board with that plan from Vasex and not wanting it to be the starting point of the game.

As I said at the time, the shut down from Bella set off a red flag for me.

What are your thoughts on the potential of Bella pocketing you?

And vice versa @bella what do you think of the chance of BBT pocketing you?

I always think its important for active players/frequent posters who are interacting a lot/voting together to consider this.

[Spartan117]

I don't think Bella has tried to pocket me at all. In fact, she has outright questioned a few things that I've done in this game. This might seem arrogant but I don't think scum!Bella would want to draw my attention to her at all. She would pocket me and just kill me.

I suppose as you have played together before she might know your potential to sus her day 2 or 3 if she kept you around, I wouldn't know. We havnt finishes day 1 yet and thus don't know what the night kill will be, so that could be interesting coming back to this although I think unlikely.

[Spartan117]

I think it's usually null, some players like to do it, some don't. I think it's better EV to do as scum because it essentially allows you to form two scum reads that you can push from that basis alone.

Fair point and I suppose scum could push one and if it doesn't work out then switch to the other easily as it was already established, interesting.
As you can tell I like talking theory as I like to get different people's perspectives as everyone thinks differently and I'm always open to learning.

[Spartan117]

But you did use that as your basis for SR me and up until right now, upon being questioned by it, made no mention of your dislike for Vasex' s play thus far.

It was never the basis on my scum read on you, I didnt like how easy you liked to jump on wagons and throw your vote around, perhaps just difference in play styles? Only time will tell.

I didn't mind you scum reading me, it was just the way you did it with such certainty that i feel scum would have, and wanting to have me eliminated and the day ended after I'd only made 7 posts just really pinged me.

The tunnelling I've seen done by both scum and Town before so its hard to tell, I think its down to play style but I tend to lean towards scum on seeing it as it's harder for scum to adjust and reflect on reads as they know everyone else is town.

Its true I don't think I mentioned it, although I don't think I've been able to share much read wise post-vasex revisiting the whole thread. My attention in game has been elsewhere. So like I mentioned previous I am not always able to comment on things when i see them (ive skimmed through vasex catch up, but not in too much detail) I intend to review all the slots and see if/how my reads have changed.

[Spartan117]

If you really think I am scum who do you think is my scum partner?

@BBT any thoughts on who my scum partner would be more so at that time? I can defo see a strong case for vasex given his town read on me and push on you.

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Vassex harmful to town and needs to go. I guess that puts him at E2?

I kinda wanted to vote for somnus cause if he flips red, I get to watch vasex try to talk his way out of that absolute town read, but vassex is probably more harmful to town than a scum!somnus is

And if vasex flips red I think it's likely town!somnus rather than scum team.

Just so we are all clear you are putting him to E-1 with
Corwin
Bella
BBT
and yourself Rad voting for him

Please no one else vote him unless they actually have intent to hammer and realistically you are suppose to declare intent to hammer to allow whoever is on to E-1 to claim any PR.

[Spartan117]

Scum spartan me

What is it specifically that has caused your scum read? I can see you are not 100% convinced.

Not convinced of scum!Spartan either to be fair.

100% convinced is a high bar for D1 on anything, but no. The SR was a combination of trying to gauge if your OMGUS was genuine and how it appeared that you were basing your SR on BBT/Bella for what I'm talking about in 322. FWIW just reading your responses on this page I think you have handled the game well which makes me reconsider. It was more a lean in the first place and I'm also sponging Vasex's read a little for not claiming at E-1. You obviously knew you were there and I agree with the theory that scum will pretty much always Hail Mary a PR claim to save themselves.

Just popping in quickly, I saw this and a thought occurred to me from reading your post, not saying 100% that BBT is doing this but what if scum are using the strategy of pushing on wagons to look townie to gain reads but are using it to try and get people to E-1 to try and get pr claims from town or at the very least not pr claims which would reduce their pool of potential people who to pick from for night 1 kill?

[Spartan117]

scums: cheap, corwin, bbt, rad

yeah, it feels quite solid. add here bella and i can say that there are 2 scums in this list. everybody else are town.
because scum!cheap wouldn't vote me before his partner, this is too huge risk for him to vote his 100% towniee, too suspicious
so logics says : his partner was already voting me

What are the odds Scum!Cheapside asked his scum partner Scum!BBT to remove his vote so that he can join the wagon less suspiciously than if he had hammered out of nowhere. Making it look better with BBT who is aleady on the wagon hammering?

[Spartan117]

mqbosco: she hasn't been around a great deal. Interactions have involved noncomittal townreads. Without more posts to actually base an analysis on,

I would actively seek the elimination here. I've seen scum lurk to a win before, it's not a fun time.

bosco/corwin maybe is not with cheap, cheap wanted to elim bosco so much for lurking.
he even used bb-codes here lol
on the other hand he is voting rad, not bosco. he has huge attack on rad

i also noticed strange thing: bbt repeated sheeping the vote of cheap three times on day 1. bosco, bosco, spartan, spartan, vasex, vasex.
talking only about bbt this is scummy

Could it be possible for cheapside to be doing some distancing from his missing teammate? So when they reappeared or replaced he would have already put out feelers of trying to eliminate the slot?

[Spartan117]

so my final list for monday (in priority from the most scum and from the most town)

scums: CHEAPSIDE, bbt, corwin, rad, bella
towns: SOMNUS, spartan, wd

Scum team if you can night kill 1 off that scum list to make day 2 a little easier that would be appreciated thanks