Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[whiskey delta]

VOTE: Jackal711

This is my second game on MS but my only other one is still on-going. I played from I'd say 2013-2018ish on DragonMount and a few other sites fairly consistently, but it's been a few years and I am very much still knocking the rust off and getting back into forum play.

I prefer playing Town because I like the solve aspect of the game. I especially like being Town when I have a gun

I will likely be fairly active. I'll be juggling two games at once and haven't done that in a while so we'll see how that goes but generally I'm not a low poster regardless of alignment

I forgot the 4th question

[whiskey delta]

Somnus can be my first TL - low effort posts to make if they randed scum again but willing to call that intro genuine on its face.

Around the time I stopped playing I was red probably 10 times out of 12-13 games in a row. It was brutal and by the end I sort of hated playing Mafia lol (not just the alignment)

[whiskey delta]

I'm catching up on the conversation now.

Quick rule clarification if someone can answer, though I think I know the answer based on my reading... however it seems different than in my old games. Back then, a lynch wouldn't happen until Day ended, so if Day ended in 24 hours, a lynch wouldn't happen until then regardless of the votes. At that point, whoever had the most votes would be lynched. It seems like the rule here is that as soon as someone has the majority of players voting for them, Day ends and they're lynched. Is that right? So even though Day ends in 10 days, if there are a majority of votes on a player before then, Day will immediately end and they will be lynched? Thanks for any clarification

Just an fyi, here it's called "elimination" when a player gets voted out. Same exact thing, just more PC I guess. And yes, from what I understand whenever the hammer drops the game moves into Twilight phase, and then Night once the mod posts the reveal.

[whiskey delta]

The question asks if you are comfortable lying and then he lied on the questions. It’s actually kinda funny but not scummy

[whiskey delta]

I was going to MQ but Bella and Rad have pretty much said everything I wanted to already and I don’t feel like reiterating the same stuff.

If Vasex is scum, lying on the RVS questionnaire isn’t the reason. Setting up potential back-to-back Town elims for the sake of it is not optimal to say the least. We can do all the analysis you talk about without doing that. How was your experience playing scum

@Somnus

?

Also I play in PST so I will almost always be late. I cannot comment things I’m not here to comment on at the time they are posted always. It is what it is.

[whiskey delta]

I’ll dig into this game later tonight and over the weekend. Other stuff has higher priority right now

[whiskey delta]

Bella - 71, 76, 78 saved a potential early game derail. 102 sort of echoes my feelings about Italiano. The whole "nobody took the bait on my joke" thing starts getting into LAMIST territory for me. Would have preferred to see the vote follow that up in 103 but I ~get the move here. I like the interaction with BBT in 193. The bits about being terrified of rolling Mafia read genuine on its face. Overall I get a more "monitoring" than "directing" traffic vibe.

Somnus - Question Gate kicked the game off fairly well and looking at their posts in ISO give me the impression they legit thought they caught something. The bit in 79 about "Townies should never lie" reminds me of when I was a newer player but maybe a tad overboard in the justification there. Not as big a fan of the stuff before that either because no one was actually going to take up that offer seriously so it makes it meaningless to say. Overall wouldn't call them scummy but the martyr shtick never leaves a good aftertaste.

Cheapside - 69 mentions some of the same things irt Somnus although I wouldn't take my read that far as to SR them. 156 is a lot better, in my opinion. The bit about "expecting weirder takes" and needing to possibly review Somnus scum games mirrors my own thoughts there. Still haven't reviewed Rad yet but I will look into this read a bit more closely and the same with Spartan. Not the biggest fan of pushing for lurker elims at this point in the game, LHF is LHF, but the sentiment is ~safe. Probably NAI but I look forward to seeing you progress on your read of me from this point onward.

Vasex - I can already tell this one is going to be really hard for me to figure out so hopefully I can rely on some good VCA or something. 152 would be better with more fleshed out reasons but I don't hate the quick and dirty reads for where we are in the game. The meta on mq.bosco in 208 is interesting and I would want to hear bosco's take on that in return. Slightly worried that could be a pocket play in a world where town!mq is being defended by scum!Vasex but I don't want to get ahead of myself since there's nothing else that really ~bothers me about them yet.

Pausing for now. I'll finish the other 4 later tonight after my kids are in bed

[whiskey delta]

Bella - 71, 76, 78 saved a potential early game derail. 102 sort of echoes my feelings about Italiano. The whole "nobody took the bait on my joke" thing starts getting into LAMIST territory for me. Would have preferred to see the vote follow that up in 103 but I ~get the move here. I like the interaction with BBT in 193. The bits about being terrified of rolling Mafia read genuine on its face. Overall I get a more "monitoring" than "directing" traffic vibe.

I appreciate your full post, but let's talk about Bella.

"saved a potential early game derail":

#71 - It's not like he was the leader here, in his own words: "Three people have told you that this is silly. We can't all be scum."
#76 - Still just reinforcing what others have said, and throws in some shade on Vasex that he can use later.
#78 - A scum!Bella would know if Vasex is town. He'd also know if he's scum and is trying to save him. Regardless, Somnus's stance on this was ridiculous and easy to defend against. He finishes by claiming he just doesn't understand somnus but doesn't really direct him in any way that helps produce more good content. Also note that he just drops the vote on Somnus in #82 because somnus said something that Bella thought was magically town (and never explains).

#102 - yeah it's a weird interaction and he goes nowhere with it. Why does him claiming it's weird and you thinking it's weird make him town?

You get the move on mq with #103. Sure, I do too. But why pressure mq over Italiano if he thinks that Italiano's move was scummy?

He can be sincere about being terrified of being mafia while still being mafia. It's a legit emotion. It's not a town read.

How does "monitoring" help town? If he's a proven role, sure, monitor away. He's not. He's potential scum and monitoring is the same as not contributing.

#71 - This is true but looking at the stream of posts on the page you'll see what I mean.
#76 - Throwing shade. okay maybe? I don't think the statement in itself is harmful - I said the same thing too.
#78 - The questions asked in the post that were answered by Somnus following was good content imo.

They took off their vote and it was laid again within three (ISO) posts following mq.bosco's entrance and subsequent exit. At this stage in the game there really is no "good" reason to vote anyone per se, so I'm not bothered by that so much. Bella pokes bosco in 87 before voting them so it didn't come out of nowhere either. I mentioned the same thing irt Italiano but that's something they can explain themselves. I would say generally they are using their vote in a positive way.

How do you normally approach reading players? It's obviously not as simple as I agree with someone therefore they get a TR, but I know what lens I am looking at the game thru so when I see similar stuff I tend to note that. A lot of it is tone reading too. I have played with people in the past who crattered as scum, so if what they are saying is true then I don't get that sense here.

I suppose the traffic analogy wasn't very good, so I'll try to explain better. I didn't mean that to say they are watching and not contributing, but more that they are present and involved but not pushing an agenda.

[whiskey delta]

Before whiskey posts his next 4...

I want to say there's a strong potential for Bella/whiskey scum team.

His reads:

Bella - just love
Somnus - leaves shade
Cheap - buddying up to cheap. Is it because cheap is putting in analysis effort?
Vasex - leaves shade

Non-commital. No strong takes. There's a ton of content in this game already, I expect more here.

Yikes.

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we? I haven't even finished lol

[whiskey delta]

Just on this page I can tell that you are overthinking way too much and trying to hamfist your reads.

It's page 9. Let the game breathe a little bit - I've learned in my short time here that D1 on MS can be longgggggg

p-edit: Sure, comment away! Doesn't change what I said there or above.

[whiskey delta]

@BlueBloodedToffee I think you were talking to me with that accidental quote? So in response, I don't want to park my vote on mq until she's had a chance to respond to everything that's happened since her last visit. She's a null read for me and maybe she's just busy and hasn't gotten a chance to participate.

I'm fine with not voting someone right now, we have time to let the lurkers catch up.

You went from this...

So something I like to do is take my heavy town reads and really scrutinize them.

So I looked at Bella. Why do I think Bella is town?

#6 - random vote
#16 - info about availability
#31 - nothing
#35 - talking about another game
#37 - talking about another game
#40 - gives some theory, points out the obvious that convo about vasex isn't helpful
#67 - agrees with me about vasex
#71 - points out the obvious that somnus martyring himself is a bad idea
#72 - says he town reads me and cheap
#76 - points out more obvious bad town moves. Sets himself up to elim vasex at some point when he gets tired of the memes
#78 - pressures somnus and...
#82 - unvotes somnus because somnus magically convinced him
#87 - is here in time to ask mq for input
#102 - suggests day 1 is a crapshoot and we shouldn't care about it. Questions Italiano's content but doesn't follow up on it.
#103 - random vote on mq bosco
#122 - new guy is in, time to talk about stuff outside the game
#139 - summarizes somnus's play, throws shade on me
#141 - clarifies mq bosco vote
#159 - throws more shade on me
#199 - weak question on BlueBloodedToffee (which was easily responded to by BlueBloodedToffee), throws shade on him
#201 - Keeps vasex open to elim, talks more about outside this game
#213 - talks more about another game

A note I have about Bella from early:

"Bellaphant & Somnus - not a scum team"

A scum!Bella makes a town!Somnus, town!Vasex, town!BlueBloodedToffee (maybe), and town!mq

I think my initial assessment of him was based on him making me feel correct in my reads. Trying to be more objective about this, I don't think that makes him town, and looking at his input for this game so far, I don't actually see him doing anything useful for town.

VOTE: Bellaphant

Sorry I don't know how to easily turn those #page references into a link. I was turning them into a link with my previous post by manually typing out the post code but there's too many here to do that. If there's a shortcut, please someone let me know

Now for Vasex, my other heavy town read:

#10 - random vote
#12 - town read on cheapside, joking
#14 - joke
#18 - joke
#19 - content creating question
#21 - answered Italiano's questions
#23 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#25 - joke
#26 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#32 - joke
#33 - joke
#48 - joke
#90 - town read on somnus
#105 - scum read on Italiano, and jokes
#143 - scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#145 - explanation of read, as a joke
#147 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#149 - town read on mq
#150 - trying to get cheapside to unvote somnus (cause he has town read on somnus)
#152 - listed town reads, reinforces scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#153 - edit by way of correction
#171 - clarifies mq town read with meta explanation, and scum read on italiano/BlueBloodedToffee
#174 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#176 - getting content out of BlueBloodedToffee
#178 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#186 - applying pressure to cheap with me
#187 - preserving town, guarding from bad wagons
#188 - explanation of not being active enough (but you are! it's ok vasex, you're doing great)
#208 - detailed explanation about mq

Awesome town play by vasex. OR he's scum team with mq, but I think he's just meta-ing that relationship too hard. I'm betting town here.

...to this within a couple of hours. you're definitely overthinking things but I think this probably makes you Town too.

[whiskey delta]

Irrelevant response to my statements. Also, why give play advice to someone who you don't know is town? Why not let potential scum bury themself if you think my posts are so bad?

Coincidentally, it's 2am, so I'm going to bed. Enjoy your breathing time?

I know your solve is wrong because I am not scum, so that's a nonstarter to begin with. I happen to disagree with your Bella read as well, and I think you had it right the other way around. The fact that you are reversing yours at the same time I am making my initial one is coincidental. But you picking that up and trying to run with it reads like a Townie jumping at shadows.

Your posts can be bad and you still be Town. I do it all the time

[whiskey delta]

Go to that page where 149 is and you'll see.

[whiskey delta]

Was expecting to come out of a BBT ISO with a SR but don't feel that way at all. The intro I feel is probably NAI for this player but Page 9 looks good - 200 & 202 feel Townish. Can't really explain beyond the tone but that suspicion seemed genuine.

[whiskey delta]

I'll do Spartan later

[whiskey delta]

Oh, ok, I was looking for the answer in the slot bbt replaced. That whole convo is more pointless than I was hoping!

I liked bbts early stuff and then I left the thread for a page and I felt it got a lot scummier, but it could be a response to pressure, as he seemed to think there were at least 3 slots scum reading him.

Those three scum reads kinda come out of nowhere too.

Yes it was lol

196 at the very end makes me question a little bit. And the “someone with more town cred” line was strange but I guess if he was actively counting how many scum reads he carried it makes more sense. BBT seems like the sort of player who enjoys that style and relishes the trolling a bit but after screwing around with those others he turned sharp pretty quick at your question. Just seems like a real reaction to me

I’ll need to reread that whole section again before commenting on the others

[whiskey delta]

Alright. I’m caught up and have some things I want to machine-gun respond to, but won’t be able to until later on today. I’ve got another degenerate nerd hobby that is going to take most of my focus this weekend due to a special event that I’m leading. Back later on today when I can pop in.

Have fun, nerd.

[whiskey delta]

UNVOTE:

For all the fear mongering I don’t think I have ever actually seen someone be speed hammered accidentally or otherwise.

[whiskey delta]

This EXACT style of note-taking every little thing is what I did in my first game on-site as scum and it got me hardcore town-read. Never had a vote on me the entire game. Pull up my ISO from Newbie 2087 and take a brief look, particularly Days 1 and 2. Something to consider.

Did you likewise take your notes, link them to a player with a handful of posts, and then shove that solve onto another slot and ask them to vote with you?

The notes alone can be scum!busy work. The latter feels more like try harding town to me

[whiskey delta]

215 Good from Whiskey, I like this. 231 Why did you think my entrance was NAI, Whiskey?

Idk how I messed that up but the Bella post I meant to point out was 199.

I went into a bit more detail afterwards but essentially you seem like the type who just enjoys doing things in the game to make people react/SR you early on. You also seem seasoned enough to know that is your normal shtick and would try to follow that as either alignment, hence NAI. I don’t consider much of your stuff pre-Bella double take to be serious but your reaction in that spot took me out of “doing things for the sake of it” range that I was considering on first skim

[whiskey delta]

I'll do Spartan later

I'll get there. I am currently mulling over whether I think their OMGUS is genuine or if they are trying to soapbox on the "proper Town play" and speed hammer fearmongering to SR you/Bella.

[whiskey delta]

Also squinting at Somnus right now. I can see what he means by "hey, I did this recently as scum" but I think that dumbs down the intent too much and doesn't taken into account all the rest of Rad's play that goes along with his notes/reevaluation. If it were just the notes, then I would agree, but in this context it looks like an attempt to smear.

[whiskey delta]

Vasex

: meming but active, helped create content. Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town.

Are you joking about "Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town."?

yeah that sounds suspicious from cheap...

I can’t tell if this is just a continuation of the joke or if Vasex is serious with the FOS here

guys, dont make 5 votes on anybody too early please

we don't need to end the day so fast

Posts like this also tend to make me frown. Why state the obvious? I don’t believe there’s a world that exists where players are getting hammered for nothing. Never seen it happen. Don’t understand why it’s being pushed as Mafia gospel.

Rad

Are you trying to get Vasex to put Rad to

E-1

so your scumbuddy can quickhammer him on accident?

Also your reasoning on scumreading him for your vote is very watery in 168

Again, this sort of accusation makes me want to SR this slot. In what universe does it make sense for scum to do this? Since you like theory, let me ask How do you think scum would play a situation like this? The game goes beyond D1 and this entire theory is based on the notion the scum, working openly together, end Day early to flip a Townie. And then what? Rely on wifom as a pissed off Town turns on them?

do you know that voting smb only because he scumreads you and also adding the vote to a bigger wagon - this is scummy thing?

It's very OMGUS isn't it.

Is OMGUS a scumtell?

[whiskey delta]

Someone finally jumps on Italiano’s joke and he’s not even here to do anything about it.

Shame

[whiskey delta]

Vasex could you please get a pfp? Same for Rad. Having something visual to reference your posts to will help keep people from getting mixed up. People being me mostly

[whiskey delta]

Also squinting at Somnus right now. I can see what he means by "hey, I did this recently as scum" but I think that dumbs down the intent too much and doesn't taken into account all the rest of Rad's play that goes along with his notes/reevaluation. If it were just the notes, then I would agree, but in this context it looks like an attempt to smear.

I dunno, I get a townie read from somnus for it. A first time town!Somnus is going to look at his successful scum play to find scum, and a town!Somnus claiming he sees me doing the same thing means he truly believes his claim. It could be a scum!Somnus throwing shit to see what sticks though, for sure, but it's reasonable to believe he's town!Somnus spotting similarities.

I think a town!Somnus should really think about it harder. Good scum play emulates town play. So good on you Somnus for pulling that off as scum. You should notice though that it also means that stuff like taking notes, analyzing, reanalyzing, and sharing my thoughts along the way is a townie thing to do. If it wasn't, why would you have tried to emulate that as scum? So am I doing it as an honest townie, or am I scum trying to look useful like you did in your scum game? Am I adding to the town or muddying the waters? Base your read on stuff like that rather than "he's doing a thing I did when I was scum."

Your take is fine but I still think him pointing that out by itself is being reductionist at best. Taking one post out of your stream and saying "I did this as scum so maybe they are scum too" removes the nuance of how you are handling those notes, etc. So yeah, maybe they just didn't think it all the way through but it still stuck out to me.

[whiskey delta]

Nope. never met the guy before this game

[whiskey delta]

my experience tells me to repeat and repeat obvious things to people i dont know at least

That’s fair. I guess the newbie part of the newbie queue went over my head. I don’t feel as if there are any newbs here. Just maybe some rusty old timers

I feel where Cheap is coming from and hope they can get back into the game soon, but I personally didn’t hate watching your catch-up in real-time. That style reminds me of others I have played with in the past so it’s sort of helpful to me, I think. I agree with you about Bella but less about Rad/BBT. Also not sold on Town!Somnus yet. Not convinced of scum!Spartan either to be fair.

I was sketched out by your read on bosco earlier but I have liked how you carried that. I concede you were catching heat for it (beginning to maybe) so you couldn’t just keep it forever but this turn feels appropriate

[whiskey delta]

Not convinced of scum!Spartan either to be fair.

town spartan

Town spartan you
Scum spartan me

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[whiskey delta]

Hmm maybe. I don't think the risk of a hammer was ever actually real - I have seriously never seen this speed hammer everyone is afraid happen - but maybe. Scum claiming a PR though, I do agree about that.

Bella
Rad
Vasex?
Spartan?

means there is 2 scum in BBT, Somnus, bosco, & Cheapside.

VOTE: Cheapside

[whiskey delta]

BBT objectively ~bad but for now I like the guy who says they want to make reads and scum hunt but talks about policy eliminations instead

[whiskey delta]

@rad, I am conflicted. I quite liked rads catch up in real time on a first look, as it felt flowly and natural. And then I realised that hos reads didn't really massively change throughout: i'm town, Somnus is town, bbt is scum - at least these three were reads he started with. Do you think he's making the shoe fit? Compare for example his mentions of Spartan to your catch up.

There were a few places where I thought Vasex was showing progress on some reads in real time. Bosco comments, leaning scum to leaning Town on me. I don’t remember what his read on Rad was before so I’d have to look again.

Cheap, what do you make of Vasex's reads never changing throughout the game? They're very rigid.

Additionally, and this is a note for everyone, almost all of Vasex's reads are predicated on me being scum.

So if I'm town, he gets to completely reset.

That can happen and still be Town.

Not everyone can be scum. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that

Bella
Rad
Vasex?
Spartan?

means there is 2 scum in BBT, Somnus, bosco, & Cheapside.

VOTE: Cheapside

Good, good, bad, bad.

I don't like the Cheap vote. He isn't even pushing for the policy lynch, he is merely suggesting that it may come to that IF we get nothing from those players.

IF we get nothing it’s the mod’s job to handle it. Pushing inactive slots is weak sauce.

Cheapside has 7 posts and mentions policy elims 3-4 times. Besides moving his vote every other post it’s the only thing he’s done somewhat consistently so far. The tone in that last response is really bad. “Hasn’t failed to satisfy me yet” gross. Do they know this slot is scum? It’s the LHF and they keep nibbling.

[whiskey delta]

I’d compromise for a Somnus wagon

@BBT

[whiskey delta]

You were already my top scum read, and I made that pretty clear when I was on yesterday. This is where my vote will remain due to how you're handling it. Have a good night.

This can be scum.

[whiskey delta]

VOTE: Somnus

VOTE: Somnus

[whiskey delta]

Scum spartan me

What is it specifically that has caused your scum read? I can see you are not 100% convinced.

Not convinced of scum!Spartan either to be fair.

100% convinced is a high bar for D1 on anything, but no. The SR was a combination of trying to gauge if your OMGUS was genuine and how it appeared that you were basing your SR on BBT/Bella for what I'm talking about in 322. FWIW just reading your responses on this page I think you have handled the game well which makes me reconsider. It was more a lean in the first place and I'm also sponging Vasex's read a little for not claiming at E-1. You obviously knew you were there and I agree with the theory that scum will pretty much always Hail Mary a PR claim to save themselves.

[whiskey delta]

I'm not sure. The thing with rad felt weird, but they reacted simulae to the post of mine they didn't like (`i wish they'd followed up with me but that's personal). I can't work out it that kind of weird emotional reaction is more likely from town or scum.

Them and rad both seem to post quite differently between posts, so I respond better to some than others.

I'm underwhelmed by whiskey delta but fond, probably unreasonably, of cheap.

hello its me

whiskey d

what you get is what you see

I base a lot of my reads, especially D1 when there are no flips, on tone. Somnus pings me on a gut level. I could argue that he's voting one of the players I have the strongest TRs on but that is all negligible right now. I don't feel like his reaction to you early on or this one with Rad stem from a Townie place. This feels like grumpy scum to me. I can't put it into better words than that

[whiskey delta]

You know, before I even get into the rest of the thread... this has been sitting on me the entire time I've been following the game.

[whiskey delta]

Blatantly lying and destroying any trust we can have in you is not the perfect tactic for day one in a new game. You need to go.

This is asinine. What is it with policy elims on MS?

[whiskey delta]

BBT/Bella exchanges look T/T. Spartan looking good on page 23. I agree on 572 that this is a trap Town can easily fall into and also 574 irt BBT. I think this is just the player he is and we have to adjust accordingly. At the very least it's not a sustainable strategy for scum because it inherently brings attention but if Town it's also dangerous for scum who can struggle in transitions. Reconsider at end game if they're still alive imo.

Vasex is obvtown here. He's trying to force his elim which I think is dumb because everyone will just blame him but I'd wager he's going to flip Town. His style is unconventional which is making it worse.

[whiskey delta]

also top post is never scum

it's a rule

[whiskey delta]

also top poster is never scum

it's a rule

ebwop

[whiskey delta]

Vasex is obvtown here.

He's trying to force his elim

Let's say you're right. WHY? What's his goal? What could that possibly gain town? There's no guarantee a scum is on any particular wagon. Shit if I was scum while a town!vasex's was doing all this, I'd be lurking and just waiting this out until town mislims.

I think he thinks that this is going to out scum or like prove that his reads were correct or something. It's the same way any Town flip can be another crumb to find scum with - it's just being employed in a selfish and negative way that is going to make things muddier in the long run. The point of catching scum on mislims is to actually make them have to reason their way onto mislims.

[whiskey delta]

TWTBAW is a thing, yeah. Like I said - this reads to me like he's just trying to force his elim so he can say post game that he was right and we all should have listened to him. It's bad play and selfish but it's probably Town.

I'd still hammer anyway tbh. If this is the route he's going to go down the least we can do is flip him and go from there. One less distraction for scum to hide behind

[whiskey delta]

means there is 2 scum in BBT, Somnus, bosco, & Cheapside.

so if bbt is town for you, all scums are here for you: somnus, bosco and cheapside
but you are ready to hammer me only because of distractions? NOT BOSCO SLOT? strange straaange

That’s correct. Tell me what you think? I rather like my POE for D1

“only because of distractions” - if you mean flame baiting and trolling people to try to get yourself eliminated on some self righteous D1 crusade… then yes. I will absolutely hammer you and clear you off the board. I never said I would do it now or when. If that was my intent - I would have claimed intent.

What’s funny is I am probably one of the few reading you correctly in this situation and calling it what it is but getting SR for it lol

[whiskey delta]

I'd still hammer anyway tbh.

i just dont like this. and you keep repeating it that you would do that. this is like pushing to do it smb else, to stay clean

Hammer the wagon I am actively pointing at and saying “this is town” ?

[whiskey delta]

That’s correct. Tell me what you think? I rather like my POE for D1

somnus is frustrated/confused town, however he may be right above scum Rad, your tr for some stupid reason

Rad’s ISO is eager Town scum hunting everything. First game in a few years, they said.

Somnus burying his vote and disappearing is the scum you aren’t seeing

[whiskey delta]

I'd still hammer anyway tbh.

i just dont like this. and you keep repeating it that you would do that. this is like pushing to do it smb else, to stay clean

Hammer the wagon I am actively pointing at and saying “this is town” ?

your words, not mine
you'd hammer a town - you are saying this

Who would hammer a wagon I am calling out as a town flip? That is the point I am making.

[whiskey delta]

I’m going to bed.

[Somnus, bosco slot, Cheapside]

There’s my D1 solve. Happy to wagon any or all. Lmk

[whiskey delta]

Dear Somnus,

Greetings my most solemn friend. It has come to my attention that you are suffering from a long streak of scum rands. I empathize with this and understand your sense of longing to just be the good guy for once. I know how frustrating it can be to be on the outside looking in as the village revels and slowly comes together. My only wish is to ease your suffering so that perhaps, next time, you can feel the glory that being Town is. Cheers.

Your dear friend,
Whiskey

[whiskey delta]

Quick thoughts before work:

Cheapside/BBT not M/M. If Cheapside is the scum then he played BBT like a toy. Hammering doesn’t make him scum but it was bad play. If BBT is scum it would be for stuff like Spartans said (running up wagons to get PR reads)

I like Somnus more today. His post about how the NK would be dumb for him makes sense but I’d be careful with this narrative simply because scum control/manipulate that.

@Rad - sometimes I have my moments. I’ve seen stuff like that plenty of times and considering the (Town btw) meta Corwin brought in for his scum case made it pretty clear to me what was happening. I stand by what I said. I would have hammered Vasex AT DEADLINE if he were still there simply because his play was going to be a problem. I didn’t mean right then and there. I’m not mad the player is gone but I am pissed he was selfish enough to take that elim without claiming and then proceeding to post for several more pages anyway.

@Cheapside - can you explain your read on me more? Also, irt Somnus - my read on D1 was based on them showing what I thought were obvious signs of irritability. Imagine that you’re on you’re fourth or fifth (?) game and have never rolled Town before. Suddenly this time you did. Would you be happy or mad about that? It’s odd to me that we have the same substance for a read but opposite conclusions. Am I wrong or do you just know better?

Also, if you are familiar at all with MU then you know your posts complaining about the game state would probably earn you some SRs. IME players who are mad because others post a lot are typically scum. A busy thread is a hard one to hide and blend into.

[Corwin/Cheapside] looks good to me right now. I’ll try to reread some stuff later tonight.

[whiskey delta]

I think part of the problem that I have seen so far is that people are harping too much on what is good or not good content. Scum hide in the details. They are going to have reasons and make sure their logic is lined up nice and neat. Townies just have to be and eventually they figure it out or they don’t. Thread presence is a thing and tends to be more Town sided. I have very rarely ever seen players who can consistently out post and out pace the Town as scum

[whiskey delta]

Whiskey is just town, that's nice.

I'll get back to this later.

[whiskey delta]

There is a lot to unpack in this game. I read back a bit all the way up this point, so I am going to bookmark for now. There's a lot to digest after that D1 end and I want to sleep on it. But I do like this direction of investigating the NK, however blurry that can become sometimes. It is one of the best leads we have at the moment. Spartan doesn't make sense as a PR hunt (no claim at E-1) so there was something within his scope that got him killed. There is a lot I want to respond to from D2 start but it is getting late so it will have to wait for later when I can give it the diligence it deserves - including your latest post @Rad

[whiskey delta]

873 and 874

Are basically my internal conflict atm. Good unvote though, yeah.

BBT/Cheap are the most common denominators from your post @Rad. The fact all three are on the wagons but the NK makes Bella/BBT look worse is not lost. Like I said, scum control this so in world where it’s Cheap and Bella/BBT are T/T that was a good kill. But I really don’t love how the people saying VCA will be useless are the primary reasons it would be either.

Much confusion. I am chewing on the idea of Town!Somnus and tweaking reads accordingly. The only person I feel really comfortable calling Town until I can review is Rad.

[whiskey delta]

Whiskey, who is saying VCA will be useless?

You literally said something to the effort of there too many wagons and not enough VCs to make VCA worthwhile. I can pull it up again but it’ll have to be later

I said vca-ing particularly on vasex was a bit useless, as I legit think the slot needs reporting. I also said it was useful in terms of looking at who was on a lot of wagons (me, bbt, but also surprisingly cheap)

I also don't think there's masses to say about the nk as it was a really widely tr slot. I think the only more tr slot was WD.

This is fair. I think the meltdown was always coming but it doesn’t absolve anyone for their vote either, is my point. Your reasoning was probably the least bad of the bunch. I picked up the same thing irt Cheap moving their vote a lot D1. That and talking about policy elims

This post reminded me of something irt Corwin. I’m really bugged that he brought that topic back into the game and find it really weird he used a town meta game to push it. Like, did he expect Vasex to blow up there? His mixup confuses me because his original point was true (Somnus snap voted BBT at Daybreak) so I’m hoping he can clarify that. Somnus going aggro here might be Townie but the “this Town is too dumb to follow isn’t my problem” is at the very least not constructive. Town is a collaborative effort my creepy big red eyed friend.

[whiskey delta]

I read Somnus last night before stepping away for the evening but have been thinking over it sense. My immediate question is simply - well, what if you’re wrong? There’s no way scum play this openly together. And then I start to think about the game, it’s flow, the interactions, the wagons, the NK. And it all does kind of make sense. I was saying yesterday that maybe this was scum!Cheap killing Spartan to put heat on them since all three were on the wagons. The simpler answer is just that what we see is what is really happening. I want to read Spartan’s ISO for myself but off the top of my head he was SRing the wagoners and I was actually SRing Spartan for suggesting they’d be scum together. We were both the most TR players at the end of D1 (maybe?) but he got killed instead. Why? Like I said it wasn’t a PR hunt because he hit E-1 and coolly called everyone out for it but no claim. He flipped VT. Why him over me? My bottom 3 was [Somnus, Cheap, Corwin]. What were his again?

My personal read on Bella was town but I don’t know them so I could easily be wrong. My read on BBT stems more on “no way scum plays like this” but really what has he done that could he said helps Town exclusively? Even wagoning “for pressure” or whatever has benefits for scum. Corwin hitting E-1 that quick feeds into this theory as well.

Thinking all the way back to the first few pages, one the first pings I had was Bella skipping over sus on Italiano and voting mq.bosco instead. It bothered me then because it wasn’t consistent but it makes a lot more sense thru this lens. Couple that with some later interactions “when was the last time you were scum?” “With you actually!” And it all feeds the tinfoil.

I’m not saying Somnus has got it right but holy shit does this thread narrative point to that pairing. But like - what if he really did just nail it?? There is a lot of things that point to it being more than just theory.

[whiskey delta]

Hi, any thoughts on the game?

Somnus v-v-very interesting and - suddenly - make me feel nervous. Don't know why. You, Bella, looks towny. Italiano playing not like another game in which I can see him. Vasex is joking like towny. But I can't say that I have some reasons to give scum-role to somebody at this moment.

i will be later, not today. too lazy and also busy

here is mafia
VOTE: ItalianoVD

Come on man, I was gonna claim scum and now I have to lie about being town!

So no bueno huh? No one picked up on this? Oh well too late.

Yeah I noticed. You were both joking though? :shrug:

Yup and wanted to see who would jump on me.

@rad, considering we've had a no show and replace out, I'm not expecting day one to be hugely busy. Day one is often a crapshoot, you'll learn to roll with it.

I don't really think italiano thinks anyone would jump on that statement, so that whole interaction is weird to me.

VOTE: msq bosco

Here’s the bit I was talking about. I pulled the relevant pre-vote posts as well.

[whiskey delta]

I think back to D2 start where I am showing signs of going after Cheap/Corwin to which I received praise and TRs from BBT/Bella.

Town-binned.

Has anyone asked what reads these two actually have on each other? It’s the only question that really matters tbh.

[whiskey delta]

Rad, the parts where Somnus talks about you being Town-binned and on counted on for mis-lim votes coild be happening right now. You’re fighting for them because you’re unwilling to set aside your own beliefs. Why can’t they be scum? Just because you don’t think so? There really is a mound of evidence if you look. I’m going to continue looking back and will probably find more things that’ll make me go hmmmmm

[whiskey delta]

Thinking back to BBT “someone with more Town cred” post that bothered me.

What if this entire outlook stems from the idea of carrying some level of SRs so that it’s an excuse for never getting NK’d? What was their stated reason for Spartan being killed? Not that he had good reads - but that he was the most TR.

Shit really is lining up.

[whiskey delta]

Time for some medicine.

VOTE: BBT

E-1

To anyone dumb enough to hammer this without claiming intent and giving time, so help you God.

[whiskey delta]

I don't think Bella has tried to pocket me at all. In fact, she has outright questioned a few things that I've done in this game. This might seem arrogant but I don't think scum!Bella would want to draw my attention to her at all. She would pocket me and just kill me.

I suppose as you have played together before she might know your potential to sus her day 2 or 3 if she kept you around, I wouldn't know. We havnt finishes day 1 yet and thus don't know what the night kill will be, so that could be interesting coming back to this although I think unlikely.

Unlikely indeed.

[whiskey delta]

What is unlikely?

That Spartan could revisit D2

I realize what he’s actually saying there but still thought it was funny

[whiskey delta]

So, how about moving your vote off of me?

Spoiler:

[whiskey delta]

No. We had yesterday to eliminate the slot that is either open-wolfing or town gamethrowing and we somehow didn't. Bella is not the vote today, and your reluctance to eliminate a slot that should have been sorted by now that would sort literally three out of the seven slots is giving me pause.

Way too quick for this. Did you really expect everybody to just go along? Like I said, this is a collaborative effort. Towns don’t hang wolves of BBT’s caliber unless they are United.

Keep burying them. It’s all you can do and maybe Rad will come around

[whiskey delta]

Sorry. Towns don’t “eliminate” wolves of BBT caliber unless they are together.

[whiskey delta]

Whiskey, somnus, you have scum read on Bella too? How about it? Red flip Bella and we can start talking about scum team bbt potential.

Like I said earlier my personal read on Bella isn’t scum but I could just be wrong. The more I think and look back the more I feel a bit pocketed. Read my D2 posts and see how BBT/Bella react to them compared to how they react to you calling Cheap an easy vote.

Ask yourself - if BBT is town, why have they done the things they have done? Why wagon people to E-1? Why let a person’s who alignment you don’t know coax you into hammering another player whose alignment you also don’t know? Their play is the perfect blend of open wolfing with a dose of WIFOM for everything. If they are Town - what about just not doing anti-Town shit? If their best defense for wagoning so many people is “Cheap did it too” then I find that very lacking.

Spartan died for a reason. He was an outed VT more or less so scum (who would know there is a doc or not) killed him over doc hunting. Why?? It has to be his reads.

[whiskey delta]

3/4 of Spartan’s last posts all feature theories that make BBT scum. Occam’s Razor here. Is it a setup or is it just obvious?

[whiskey delta]

And even in a world where this is C1 it STILL means he was killed for his reads. Even more so.

[whiskey delta]

Wolves of BBTs caliber.

That's funny.

Nothing personal. You don’t seem the type that go down without a fight

[whiskey delta]

I'm out for a few hours and guys give me wo and a half more pages to catch up on. This is definitely different than I remember.

Whiskey, your personal read on Bella is town, and I've said I can't read her, but has that slot been under any real pressure this game?

Is/was Town? Before the end of D1 I had them up there with Rad as my TRs. Depends on what you mean by pressure. The only person I remember voting them D1 was Rad so not much by way of wagon

If BBT flips red that clears a lot of people and pretty much only leaves Bella who should be turbo elimmed the next Day. That alone is good reason for a BBT elim

[whiskey delta]

I’m implying that regardless of the setup that Spartan was killed for his reads and not a PR hunt. If scum know there is a doctor they willingly shot at someone they had reason to believe wasn’t it. If scum know there isn’t a doctor, then why not kill the guy who is closest in their reads (and TR)? The BBT/Bella thing is secondary to just BBT!scum. Some actions are defensible but like I said when D2 broke if BBT is scum it’s because of the things Spartan was pointing out. The more I look at his ISO the more convinced I am. You seem the sort to kill your biggest threat. I respect the hell out of it, honestly.

[whiskey delta]

If BBT flips green you just lost your best chance at winning this game.

You’re not dead yet.

[whiskey delta]

I'm out for a few hours and guys give me wo and a half more pages to catch up on. This is definitely different than I remember.

Whiskey, your personal read on Bella is town, and I've said I can't read her, but has that slot been under any real pressure this game?

Is/was Town? Before the end of D1 I had them up there with Rad as my TRs. Depends on what you mean by pressure. The only person I remember voting them D1 was Rad so not much by way of wagon

If BBT flips red that clears a lot of people and pretty much only leaves Bella who should be turbo elimmed the next Day. That alone is good reason for a BBT elim

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I'm really curious why Rad's back on Bella now also.

Rad is Town. I’m not going back on that read.

[whiskey delta]

I mean, I'd argue 2 out of 3 of Spartan's last posts were talking about Cheap!Scum as opposed to BBT!Scum but whatever. Doesn't fit the narrative so ignore again.

Cheap is not forgotten either.

UNVOTE:

I’m out for the night.

[whiskey delta]

Sorry everyone. Busy weekend but I will get on this today

[whiskey delta]

Okay, I'm caught up. I went all the way back to p32 and reread from there so I'm just gonna thought dump for a bit and then read back again to address any of the stuff that I thought was worth mentioning again.

I was SR Somnus D1 for what I thought were tunnel-y votes (typically find this scummy) and tone. Tone has somewhat improved D2, though I dislike a lot of the grandstanding stuff, and the tunnel is still present. On the surface I want to say I don't think scum gambit in such a manner (I think in a world where it's BBT/Somnus they just thunderdome ITT instead of setting up flip them/flip me arguments) but I do feel the anger is a bit unwarranted. I get that Town got screwed pretty hard by the play of Vasex and their elim, but it's still just a game. There are no real awards for being right or wrong, so in the future maybe don't be so all or nothing when it comes to your approach. BBT/Somnus not M/M as far as I'm concerned, and possibly even T/T. I'm just not convinced of a Somnus red flip even after everything.

Corwin bothers me. The mixup explanation still doesn't make a lot of sense to me because the reason to SR Somnus was correct (he's still tunneling, even now) so I have a hard time wrapping my head around that and how it went from scum!Somnus to notscum!Somnus because Spartan to wagoning BBT because of Somnus to now back to scum!Somnus. I know reads flip but I feel like Corwin is just going with whatever path of least resistance presents itself in a few spots. Scum are creatures of opportunity IME. I'm not sure how to handle the Rad gambit explanation when you consider that Somnus/BBT/Bella had all mentioned some concern but didn't bite on the wagon. Damage control for a bad push?

Rad is still just Town to me. I called this D1 upon reentry and still feel that way. He's doing work, he's solving. He's the right level of paranoid but also confident enough in his own reads to stand his ground. If this guy is scum then I really need to stop playing Mafia for good. Even a few years' rust and I still think this dude is obvTown. Don't agree 100% with his reads but I do trust that I am not being manipulated here.

BBT is still not a bad flip here but I don't think it's impossible they are Town. Earlier I said if they flip red then I would turbo elim Bella next and I still stand by that. I put them at E-1 Saturday partially because I wanted to see how they'd handle the hot seat but also because I think the chances of them being scum are still high (especially considering Rad's meta dive). I unvoted because I figured Cheapside was likely going here, and was right about that, so I do feel justified in that regard otherwise we'd be in N2 already. If there's one thing you have gotten right this game @BBT (if you're Town) it's that read you make on me there. I do tend to TR people who fight their elim hard, which I'm aware of, so I'm trying to temper that some, but I do think BBT has been counter punching well since Somnus dropped his first big BBT/Bella post. It's all WIFOM which makes it hard to analyze, but I feel there was plausible reason for scum to hammer Vasex without fear (doubly so if you consider him not claiming would indicate VT - so no fall out for hammering a PR, oops) and I do believe there is merit to the idea that he was running up wagons for PR reads. Having said that, it's apparent this could just be their play style and finding the subtly between Town/scum make all the difference. This is a lot of words to say null but I think a red flip on Cheap/Corwin clears this slot.

Bella's 818 was really good when I looked at it a second time. The basis of Cheap's SR here is that Bella, as an apparently strong player and SE slot, is playing bad/weak. I guess that's fair to say if you have high expectations for SE players (it's literally three games to become SE?) but also feels a bit indefensible from Bella's standpoint. I need to read Bella more closely again because there have been other posts that rubbed me the wrong way. The "Whiskey and Rad are 'the town'" feels pockety if you see a world where it's Bella/BBT and Rad/me are the Townies who are currently helping them. Then again, maybe we've just got it narrowed down correctly and Town is doing the Town thing where everyone second guesses and chases their own tail.

Cheapside still pings me. Opening D2 with reads made before the NK feels a little weird, especially leaving in the part about Spartan. You took the time to mark it out, why not just delete it? Can't really explain my impression other than it feels intentional, like meant to make the post seem more genuine. No way I would make a read on the guy I NK'd, right? As stated above I think their angle for SR Bella is also dubious (stealing your word here) because it relies on the idea that Bella "should" be better if they are Town. Why? What experience do you have with Bella to suggest this? I'm also suspicious of their read on me because it seems they are sort of holding out on making a call, which leaves them a path to call me scum in D3 after presumably Town mislims today again and I don't get killed. For all the talk this weekend about Spartan's reads pointing at BBT, they likewise mention Cheapside quite a bit. There's one even postulating that Cheap/Corwin could be partners and Cheap was early distancing with all the mq.bosco policy elim talk (on like pg7 of the game) which I pointed on D1 as suspect so maybe I (and others) have been chasing the wrong lead.

It's been a wild ride but I think I have come full circle to [Cheapside/Corwin] again.

[whiskey delta]

Corwin is still a huge pile of null to me, which is worrying.

Right back at you Bella.

If you think Cheap/Somnus might be the team then let's go. I really don't like Somnus' "I want out of this game anyway" after his gambit -- that reads exactly like a player who's fed up with playing scum and genuinely wants out.

VOTE: Somnus
Putting my money where my mouth is, I suppose.

Feels bad, man.

Why can't Somnus be Town and be fed up with this game?

[whiskey delta]

Part of my issue with Cheapside is that I think they argue well, but that also makes them harder for me to read. The are "right" most of the time, but I still don't feel great with their arguments. This last post, for instance, while technically correct regarding BBT doesn't really move the needle much. Acknowledging that hypocrisy isn't a scum tell makes the whole thing seem pointless?

Between BBT/Cheapside I don't see T/T.

[whiskey delta]

What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

[whiskey delta]

@Rad - Irt Somnus I’ll just say the self righteousness is overblown but after some of the BS this game has featured (that flipped Town) I wouldn’t rule anything out.

[whiskey delta]

For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do

without making another vote

.

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the

entire game

.

VOTE: Whiskey

What is your read on Cheapside exactly?

[whiskey delta]

What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I just can't read cheap. He says a lot, gives a lot of reads, but I don't get a whole lot from it. I don't feel he progresses any threads or creates any interesting new ones. I clicked with his emotion from the vasex wagon but other than that, I dunno, null read. I think the way I described that should be a scum read but I'm not confident in that conclusion.

He's like the opposite of bbt. I feel like bbt does all the stuff that cheap is not doing. Stirs things up, constant pressure, not afraid to jump on wagons or create new one.

Scum!bbt has sold me on the illusion of town effort. Scum!cheap is making me wonder if he's town. Town!bbt feels like town that has a more aggressive and angering style, town!cheap would be a great confirmed town iso.

I see scum in somnus. I see scum in Corwin. I'm up for whatever you are whiskey. I think taking bbt out here is problematic for bbt somnus scum team, and losing town!bbt, but if I'm the only one who thinks that's possible, probably not worth worrying about.

I’m pretty much in lockstep with you here. I know exactly what you mean about BBT’s level of involvement and how that is making your read. I tend to agree with you too. I’ve said as much throughout the game irt effort and content and stuff like that. I have been SR Cheapside mildly all game and it hasn’t really gone away. I think the reasons for a BBT SR ~exist which makes reading them harder for me. It also makes them a good/safe vote for scum to make so I’m considering that too. If you don’t want BBT then Cheapside is good for me. Their arguments, particularly irt Bella, seem to be coming in bad faith.

[whiskey delta]

Somnus/Cheap isn’t something I have considered much. It would be funny considering that Cheap mentions Somnus being well coached in his read.

[whiskey delta]

@Corwin - I’ve noticed this same trend irt the Cheap SR. Could be coincidental but it attracted my attention that you hadn’t voted them yet today despite your activity in that department. Sometimes what people don’t do says just as much.

What do you mean by EINAI? I get the acronym but who are you talking about and in what way?

[whiskey delta]

VOTE: Cheapside

[whiskey delta]

^ good question

What is your read on BBT exactly?