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: 1. Couple of years but not many games. 2. Mafia. 3. Middling - high frequency unproductive discussion does irritate me. 4. No issues.
I did ask you a question. (11)
mm, very few things? Maybe a counter claim where I can't get a good read?
I've been plat mafia since my join date, only ever on this site.
Unlike Somnus I can't get a red role pm if I try. I'd hate to b scum right now because I literally haven't been in years.
I'm around. Probably a middle poster. I'm UK though so tend to be here when others aren't.
It really depends!
Was the top line in reply to me? If so, are you stating that in the case of a D1 claim, counterclaim, you'd no-eliminate if you weren't confident in reads? If so, that seems strange, as there'd be a 1/2 chance of hitting mafia unless something unusual was going on. Have I misunderstood?
(Btw, we can edit down people's quotes here, right? Didn't see anything about it in the rules.)
-------------------------------------
Vasex is pretty obviously town, sorry to hear their account was hacked. Going to keep my vote where it is for now, it's doing good work.
In post 28, Somnus wrote:So another user with a similar posting style to yours played on the same account in Newbie 2055, Large 232, and posted over 1800 times over the last 16 months, but you just started playing a week ago? That's what we're going with, correct? I just want to be sure.
my lawyer recommends me not to answer this question
They also seem a tad sensitive about the votes on them (39) and the intro felt forced. Not to mention the high volume of off-topic chatter.
To me, this interaction is the most notable thing to happen thus far. Seeing as Somnus apparently hasn't played town before, I'm more ambivalent than I might be, but they're definitely my top scumread right now.
-----------------------
Also, Vasex did explain that the hackers were Russian.
Russian
, people. Not sure why we're still talking about this~
In post 91, Rad wrote:Wake up town. Low activity is generally bad for town. Scum wants to lurk. It's hard for scum to create pro-town conversation and avoid scum slips.
Some questions for people:
1. Do you agree that low activity is bad for town?
2. What general time per day can we expect your input?
3. Who do you think has the most relevant input so far? How about the least relevant input?
1. Yes, although overly high activity can completely destroy town's will to play or ability to scumhunt constructively, so I'm ok with this level.
2. 8am GMT - 2am GMT, sporadically.
3. Relevant to the game? Somnus, easily. He said he thought we should elim someone, and that it was strange that we didn't.
In post 150, Vasex wrote:chepside, could you please stop voting somnus? i don't think anybody of you two is a scum
Fair enough, I have what I wanted from the Somnus interaction, and he's mostly calmed down about it. UNVOTE: Somnus
Time to go through the players briefly.
Spoiler: mostly undeveloped reads
Somnus
: Honestly confusing. Guess I'd better look through their scum games at some point. In some ways I'd expect weirder takes from Town!Somnus than Scum!Somnus. Irritation seems genuine.
Bellaphant
: active, worked through the Vasex thing, tried to calm things down, stop anything exploding D1. Probably town unless scum with Somnus or very keen on eliminating a strong town player.
Vasex
: meming but active, helped create content. Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town.
Rad
: Dubious, lots of fluff with little commitment - weak general or uninteresting questions, calls to town to post more, kinda nothingy posts like 100, 98, 95. I'm leaning scum. Okay, his last post was a commitment, it was a vote on blue and a weak attack on mq. The other way around might have been
something
, but...
Italiano/BlueBlooded
: Not sure. Italiano pointing out that nobody picked up on his joking scumclaim... weird. Odd try for townie-points? Blue agressively pushing for a wagon, feels like a strong vet, won't be easily read D1.
mqbosco
: she hasn't been around a great deal. Interactions have involved noncomittal townreads. Without more posts to actually base an analysis on,
I would actively seek the elimination here
. I've seen scum lurk to a win before, it's not a fun time.
whiskydelta
: has... four posts? Haven't found a way to filter the thread for their posts. Hasn't done much. Would be my policy elimination if we didn't have less from mqbosco. Need to see more.
Jackal/Spartan
: Obviously jackal doesn't exist. Spartan hasn't had time for much yet but I like his posting style. Odd that he feels the need to monologue on what's happening, but hey, maybe that's just how he gets his thoughts together. Townlean on the newer players, esp. me, a bit suspect. It's not like I'm going to just do what he likes because he townread me. Aaaaanyway,
Hm. I understand that other games might take up a lot of time, but if mq doesn't have a certain amount of content by end of day, she will be a policy elimination. Lurking is a very powerful scum strategy in low-power setups if town allows it - if you never say anything, there's nothing to vote you out on. Seven days to go though, so not unduly concerned.
(replying to 160)
I acknowledge you give reasonable explanations in 160, although I still see them as points about RVS posts in a post-RVS point in the game. Btw, my first post contained no summaries of events - you must have been looking at a different one (link). My first few posts were made to keep Somnus generating original content, if that's any help.
: meming but active, helped create content. Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town.
Are you joking about "Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town."?
Ok, so this will keep happening. I guess townpoints for reading my readslist, but yes, that was a joke, I have not ruled out the possibility that vasex is buddying hard. I'm being facetious around vasex. With D1 play like theirs, it's that or lim them.
Ugh, something's off. Too much of the same people posting. Obviously it's been useful, but watching Rad or Somnus getting stuck talking to a bunch of mafia vets in their thirties (rad, blue, bella), the brief wagons kinda seem inevitable. And reading those three will not be simple.
While I'd obviously like to see mq post, I'm more worried about the semi-active WhiskyDelta and the recent joiner Spartan. I'm going to interpret whisky's commitment to digging into the game over the weekend as the promise of something juicy and committal. In the meantime.
, your posts thus far have consisted of a pointlessly brief summary of the Vasex/Somnus convo 137, lot of noncomittal townreads154 with a vote on Rad, a somewhat repetitive push on Rad 184 with an unexplained statement about rad/blue, a bit of thrown-out speculation you never follow up on 189, a small question 190, a random comment 193, and some very amiable mafia theory with Rad 197.
So the interaction with Rad was useful, as it put them under pressure, but you haven't really done anything else this game except give unprompted mafia theory and look very active. The
stronger
player you ostensibly think is scum you've left almost entirely alone. I wouldn't call your interactions with Blue scumhunting
because you let him ignore you.
Do you plan to actually scumhunt/pressure anyone, VOTE: Spartan117?
Don't have time to respond/answer stuff rn, but do really want to say:
Rad
: use the "post" button at the
top
in the post a reply screen - make sure you're not quick replying. Just highlight the number beforehand, and the forum software turns it into a link to that post number this game. Really quick. Or can just hit the post button and type your number in between the [ post ]s. Messing around with BBcode can really make your posts easier to read.
I was hoping to get some analysis in, but frankly I do not have time right now, given the over a hundred(!!! ) posts since I last looked in. Please don't rapidly hammer anyone, there's useful time left in the day. UNVOTE:
I'll try to answer any questions I see, as people may feel they need that to progress. If I miss one, just point it out to me, there's... a lot of content. If you have more... ask them if you really need to, I have a lot of thread to catch up with. Glad the Spartan wagon took off but didn't culminate in an elim, we needed pressure there to get information, not a random elimination.
I'm afraid it may be almost two days before I can get back to this properly, I'm slightly busy at the moment and this is a huge D1. I will make an actually decent readlist at that point though, and probably have some fairly strong commitments voting-wise.
I wouldn't mind Cheap expanding on this. Complete different viewpoint from myself and so I feel it's worth discussing, despite being early game. 69 feels town because the scum read on Somnus comes from his town read on Vasex which feels like an organic thought process. Again, it goes against how I was reading the early game though and this keeps niggling in the back of my mind. I don't know whether Cheap's posting style just looks townie and that is swaying me too much or whether I want to scum read him because he sees the game almost the complete opposite to how I'm reading it.
I answer what might as well be the same question in 211 . It's early D1, I didn't have any firm reads, it seemed like a completely unjustified townread on vasex might get a reaction out of Somnus, which would be useful as it would give us something to talk about.
My actual read on him is much more ambivalent: facetious players D1 can be very dangerous and hard to read. His play thus far hasn't seemed extremely towny, but he has committed to reads and pushed the game along. His posting style is also starting to get on my nerves, it clogs the thread and makes it hard to read.
Spartan:
Spoiler:
In post 266, Spartan117 wrote:
The unexplained statement in 184 I left purposefully as I wanted someone to pick up on it. At that moment in time I wasnt too comfortable with what Rad had posted which is what I had pointed out above, since then I have liked more of their posts . I not explained much on my thoughts on BBT as I had not had the time to read through fully in depth although from skimming through their posts a few things felt off, which I will address. What do you think @Cheapside about the interactions between Rad and BBT?
BBT attempted to carry out their stated intention, get a wagon going. Their pressure on Rad was helpful, and gave us information with which to read them. Don't see anything too weird about Rad's vote - an aggressive response to what they percieve as an unfair vote, reasonably justified given the way BBT must have come across. Scum don't usually OMGUS out of the blue D1.
Somnus:
In post 250, Somnus wrote:
Why was Vasex politely asking you to unvote me enough to get you to do so?
I'm starting to suspect you have no sense of humour. You'd calmed down, stopped posting so much votes were moving off you I think, and I wanted to pressure someone else to get info on them. I continued the "I'll just do whatever vasex says because he's townreading me" joke, because it's funny.
And I'm willing to accept that my gentle pokes, scumread, vote, etc didn't add anything to your behaviour towards the start of the day, if you're telling me that. It does just make it look weirder and more dubious, though.
Rad:
Spoiler: replies to rad
In post 220, Rad wrote:I looked through Spartan's posts again.
@Cheap - what do you think of Bella and my read on him? What do you think about changing your vote from Spartan to Bella?
Bella seems like they'd be hard to read, . Not going to start voting Bella right now obviously, but to be honest I've barely caught up with the last thirty pages, so not going to start voting anyone until I've had time to think. Your read looks reasonable, although there are other ways to interpret Bella's play thus far. I'm not sure if their de-escalating the somnus thing was bad, as it could have led to a very early and I suspect silly elim, while voting mq could be seen as an effort to get them to post. So yeah, I see their play as very low-key, but not passive enough to immediately scumread them for it.
Ok. And Vasex has a problem with policy eliminations. I'm not going to change my mind about this. I'd rather be talking about reads, but I can't magic up new reads after 150 pages in a single day, while this is a very simple point.
Vasex:
Right now, I have no desire to eliminate mq. They haven't
failed
to satisfy me yet, because there's still time in D1. Provided we don't get a dumb wagon, there's six days left. But if someone gives us as little information as mq.bosco has done, we elim them. This isn't how I'm looking for scum, it's just a
policy
. Townhunting first, with this many people and differing playstyles, isn't going to work well enough, as we'll always find reasons enough to mistrust the people actually posting. We can't rely on having the necessary power rules to give us mechanical information on her in this setup. So if we allow it, she can and will lurk to victory if scum.
I understand you want to defend your friend, and want votes based on scumhunting not policy. But if someone won't engage with the game, I'm going to vote to eliminate them.
So the way I play mafia mostly goes like this: read, reread, think, post. Apparently, some people here do it in the opposite order, with the middle steps quite possibly omitted.
I like to have people under some pressure when I read them, so their thought processes show more clearly, and they struggle to present themselves the way they want to. That's what my actually constructive posts have been: trying to raise people's temperature, get them worried, so on. Seven hundred garbage posts are not good material, and I can't even fall back on something shitty as "terminal inability to detect irony" as a scumtell, because there are
too many people exhibiting it.
This is a ten-day D1. I didn't sign up to closely read four hundred posts a day for ten days in a row, that's longer than most novels. If I wanted that much work, I'd play on MafiaUniverse or beg my home community to let me represent them in the Mafia Championships. Vasex is the worst with over two hundred posts, but BBT is nearly as bad, for all the stuff about wanting to end the day in reasonable time. Catching up on a 24 hours worth of posts took over an hour, and we haven't even heard from one player.
In post 605, Vasex wrote:the easiest newbie scum has been found
now we need to find his partner. either the clever one, or lurker... maybe he will be with hammer... but i guess he is not voting, for example cheap who pockets me too much, so it is quite difficult for him to hammer me - his solid townie
Right. So I'm "pocketing" you. I have you as "solid townie". People should be able to laugh at your jokes, suuuure, but when it comes to me being facetious, and actually stating so two posts later, why would you remember that? After all, if you looked at people's posts carefully, you'd have less time to give two hundred individual responses to the largest posts you can find to quote!
Screw you. Read my goddamn posts. There are seven of them, not seventy a day, so you should be able to. Screw you. Respect my time.
Stop making almost a hundred low effort, uncapitalised, unspoilered, barely punctuated, blanket-quoting posts a day. Stop making jokes people here are apparently too green not to flip out about in a manner equally stupid for town and scum, it's not helping. Stop taking people's avatars. I have a lot of problems with this goddamn D1, but you're Problem Numero Uno.
VOTE: Vasex
I wish that were hammer. You can put your money where your mouth is,
BlueBloodedToffee
, or keep filling the thread up with posts nobody will bother reading. I'll try and pull some useful analysis from all this crud if the hammer doesn't come sooner, but don't expect that anytime today.
I'm not worried about people scumreading me over it, but just in case people thought my last post was some kind of appeal to emotion, I'd like to note that it was entirely within my scum range. In fact, I'd feel roughly the same way as scum about two players making up over half the thread, one of whom doesn't actually bother to read my posts, thows around childish insults, and is disrespectful enough not only to ask that special concessions be made for their friend, but to complain when someone is generous to replace in for the slot. It'd destroy my ability to play as scum as much as my ability to play town, and it'd still be extremely rude.
Compiled some reads over the night. Obviously the Spartan one is no longer relevant.
Spoiler: reads
Somnus: Initial stuff about Vasex's joke is still bizarre and frankly worrying. A lot of very defensive/aggrieved posts like 70 or 709. A lot of stuff you usually wouldn't see a three-time mafia player doing, but you might see in completely fresh town. Unless this is a very clever way to spice up scum play at the risk of a fair bit of dignity, the tone feels quite genuine. Town.
Rad: Decent start; some of the fluff might have been trying to draw people into the game and create content other than the "russian hackers" joke. The push on BBT in 155 looks a bit weird as Rad was completely ok with Vasex messing around with their first few posts, but the unvote seems reasonable enough. Has attacked the stronger, more coherent players like BBT and Bella. 439 is the kind of trouble starting scum wouldn't be likely to do - the "find" was obvious garbage with a lukewarm response even from Somnus, so no threat to scum!BBT and a useful distraction if BBT is town. Rad does generally seem quite concerned about what people think about them, but despite that, Lean Town.
Whisky Delta: mostly decent scumhunting, quite confrontational. Looks like a strong, easily overlooked player. Town lean.
Corwin: didn't have time to really read the thread, and that's fair enough. Came out focusing on a pretty obvious joke by Vasex... I really don't know what to say here. The fact that three different people here read a sentence like "my lawyer advises me not to answer that" and did not assume the whole thing was a shitpost is honestly baffling to me. I have an irrational town-lean Corwin for noting that Vasex's posting style basically destroys the thread, but that's just another sign of how endless spam screws my play over, really. Null.
BBT: highly prolific poster, came in with a stated intention of getting a wagon going and *mostly* stuck to it. Good early play creating pressure with stacked votes. Some stuff with bad vibes like 242, in which he looks like he hasn't read or understood 32 in which the joke becomes very clear. Given BBT had a jokey start himself, and seems to be able to understand what other people are saying, it looks like he's posting rather than reading the thread. Also 689 didn't make any sense to me, I'd like to see it explained. He did finally hammer when I pretty much forced him to. With 150 posts, he's almost as prolific as Vasex, even if BBT's stuff is less low-effort and stupid. The two of them make up... OVER HALF THE THREAD together. If everyone posted like that, we'd have a 2000 post D1, eighty pages of thread. BBT really wants to control the flow of the game, I guess. Would be convenient if he was nightkilled as that would let us rule out the very dangerous possibility of a highly prolific and convincing poster being scum. I guess I'd be able to read more into the slight dubiousnesses if this entire day wasn't an unfunny joke. Null.
Spartan: Fluffy and placatory/townhunting start. Aggressive response to the wagon on him, keeps posting after it dies down but with less commitment/interest, main focus is on BBT, mostly not scumhunting other players. Lot of theorising about teams i.e. who could be with who, which isn't good for in a nine-player-game D1. Doesn't seem to want to find scum unless the pressure's on them, which isn't great for an SE. Lean scum.
Bella: strong player, fairly sensible on the Vasex/Somnus interaction, maybe a bit passive D1. A lot of reads based on "vibes" or similar, voting mq isn't how I'd pressure a slot to post but I can see why someone might do it. Also some posts with somewhat trifling ideas: 720, for example, is a very weak attack for an experienced player. Scum lean.
Not a huge amount of note since D1... Somewhat unnerved by the fact the mafia chose Spartan over BBT. Nightkill analysis is a dubious business, but Town!BBT would be very dangerous for mafia. And vice versa.
I was voting Somnus early on, sure, because he was weirdly serious about Vasex's joke and that seemed like a good way to start the game. At this point, three different people at least have shown that same trait (Somnus, Corwin and BBT), so even if it was a hardcore scumtell for me, it wouldn't be enough because
there aren't three scum
. My current read of him is based on going through the twenty pages since then. Sure, there's stuff that's less than well justified, but he hasn't played a full game as town, so town!Somnus isn't expected to be perfect. The tone reads very much unhappy town.
My early vote on Rad was partly to create pressure - I don't believe it's possible to reliably find scum early D1, so reads then are implicitly weak. His initial posting wasn't awful, but there was a lot of fluff. The response to pressure was calm and reasonable, and I can see why he might have been asking weaker questions in order to draw people into the game. So yeah, his first ten pages were decent.
Bellaphant wrote:Cheap, a lot of those conclusions seemed detached from the rest of the read as well: you spend a huge amount of words to call bbt null, a fairly big amount to call corn null when it's fairly negative, and basically neutral about me to come out with what looks like your biggest scum read.
Your read on me is even more divorced from your play when I was one of the four eligible slots you didn't vote for oe pressure yesterday.
I'm leaning scum on you because you've been passive and posted weak ideas, when your play and the fact that you're an SE scream "strong player". I wasn't going to try and pressure you by throwing a vote on you: my vote becomes meaningless as a scumhunting tool if I vote everyone, and D1 pressure was unlikely to work anyway, you come across as methodical and collected. You even have a high standard for content, as you demonstrate by trying to defuse the early Somnus/Vasex thing.
Which is why it's very weird when you post stuff like 323, in which you spend a while fixed on the observation that... two people used similar phrases?
A lot has happened since that post. I still think his early play was dubious and weird, but as I've repeatedly stated - first time town might look like that. And I can't sr him for it reasonably, because corwin and you both failed to realised the Vasex thing was a joke, apparently, and I can't reasonably rely on something
three
players exhibited to find scum.
Regarding the justifications thing:
Somnus initially notes Rad's posting style resembled something he did to look towny in a game as mafia, then puts rad as scum in his tentative reads. His subsequent vote on Rad was literally explained. "dat Timing tho" or something similar, after Rad attacks the "BBT intended to post this in scumchat" idea Vasex floats, suggesting he thought you and Rad were scum together. And then... he felt insulted. And after a bit switched onto you. Scum usually think of a reason before posting reads, I don't think you've found anything incredible here. I mean, none of the reasons are strong, but Somnus gives reasons. If I had an sr on him, it'd be on the weak justifications he gives, not his failure to offer any.
Just... stop posting for a minute, and carefully read the thread. Don't make me chase this stuff for you. It's all in the ISO.
And yeah, I got Bella's point, it's just, again, an uninteresting and weak observation from a player that looks like they could do better.
I'd be interested in eliminating you, BBT. You're exerting a lot of influence on the game with constant posting, the nightkill was someone with a strong focus on you, and I'm not particularly impressed by your pushing me towards Somnus. I'd also like to know why you'd be happy to elim Corwin today?
In post 818, Bellaphant wrote:You seem to have missed my point, cheap: none of your focus was on me yesterday. Reads don't just flip overnight, unless there was a surprising elim (there wasn't) or a surprising nk - this nk was a tad surprising but actually the slot was super town by the end of the day.
Firstly, reads and focus don't necessarily align D1. This is basic stuff. I'll address the reads thing, but the focus might be just as good. Yeah, I townread you less than ten pages in. Twenty pages, two readthroughs of the thread and a close look at your ISO later, I felt your contributions were less townie. I'm sorry I missed your point here, but if your point is that my tentative reads at the start of D1 don't align with my considered reads at the start of D2, possibly I missed your point because your point was kinda stupid?
And if you think my writing doesn't flow conversationally... I proofread and change what I've written before posting, rather than treating this like Discord. So you're going to see that in almost every post I make.
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Regarding Somnus' scum read, same question to you Cheap - why is a particular style of posting scummy (hint, it's not). Secondly, his 'dat timing though' is again off the basis of Scum!Rad defending Scum!BBT which as I am sure you understand, I have a problem understanding.
Find something in Somnus' read that isn't Rad is scum because BBT is scum and vice versa.
If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me. You're basically saying Somnus had a dubious start, has scum reads with weak reasoning and he's your top town read. This read is super forced, you're clutching at straws to town read Somnus and I'm not sure what it means.
Stop suggesting I think Somnus's reasons are good. I think he gave them, and you're saying he didn't. I don't think they're good, or Somnus' play is good, I've stated this repeatedly. I just think it's new town play.
This is not forced at all. You haven't actually asked anything about my tr on Somnus, a lot of which is based on tone. You're asking why I don't have the same thought processes as you, when you're not actually reading Somnus' posts.
I literally showed you a reason he read rad as scum that has nothing to do with you. And if he actually thought the thing Vasex found might be a scumslip, he would have a reason to believe you were scum that had nothing to do with Rad. Again, I don't think any of his reasons have value, but he gave them. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you just want me to post a bunch defending Somnus?
BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
If he has given reasons, find reasons for his scum read on me. You're basically saying Somnus had a dubious start, has scum reads with
weak reasoning
and he's your top town read. This read is super forced, you're clutching at straws to town read Somnus and I'm not sure what it means.
Stop suggesting I think Somnus's reasons are good. I think he gave them, and you're saying he didn't. I don't think they're good, or Somnus' play is good, I've stated this repeatedly. I just think it's new town play.
This is not forced at all. You haven't actually asked anything about my tr on Somnus, a lot of which is based on tone. You're asking why I don't have the same thought processes as you, when you're not actually reading Somnus' posts.
I literally showed you a reason he read rad as scum that has nothing to do with you. And if he actually thought the thing Vasex found might be a scumslip, he would have a reason to believe you were scum that had nothing to do with Rad. Again, I don't think any of his reasons have value, but he gave them. Why is this difficult for you to understand? Do you just want me to post a bunch defending Somnus?
I literally say right here (in italics, bold and underlined to make it abundantly clear) that you say he had weak reasons. I'm saying, that literally makes 0 sense. You're town reading someone who, in your own words, had a dubious start and has scum reads with weak reasoning. So WHERE does the town read come from because the reasons you gave are reasons to SCUM READ someone.
In 816 I literally ask you to help me understand your read on Somnus. The one reason you showed me for Rad was that 'Rad was taking notes like Somnus did as scum.' You acknowledge this reasoning is poor and yet use it as justification for a read? Again, I'm confused. The 'scum-slip' had everything to do with me because a) it was me who posted it and b) Somnus voted Rad on the presumption that scum!Rad had posted in thread to defend scum!BBT from said scum slip.
Again, it's not a problem understanding you think Somnus gave weak reasons for a read. My problem is how these weak reasons don't translate into a scum read because that's literally what scum do. They have to force scum reads on people they know are town and so they generally have weak, poorly thought out reasons. BUT YOU'RE NOT SEEING THIS?!?!?
You're saying that in order for me to tr Somnus, I have to think his reads are reasonable. That's not my thought process. I just don't think he's particularly good at playing town yet. I might be wrong, he might be bad at playing scum after three games of it, or intentionally doing weird stuff to make people think he's town for the first time.
You have repeatedly suggested in 815 and 821 that Somnus didn't and wouldn't justify his reads at all, although you've switched to "he didn't give good arguments for his reads" in the post above. You're oblating me showing you that yes, Somnus did give reasons for his reads, with me citing those reads as a reason to tr him. The only reason I felt the need to demonstrate that Somnus did give (weak) justifications for his reads is your own posts here: 811, and 815. It's the reason I brought them up. Like I said, you never actually asked why I'm tr-ing Somnus, you just asked why I didn't sr him for the reasons you do.
You've misrepresenting me here quite a bit. We've gone from "How can you townread Somnus when he hasn't explained his reads?" to "How can you townread Somnus on the basis of these weak justifications you're showing me?" You've made me show you things in the thread, then claimed that I'm basing my read on them.
Regarding not sr-ing somnus on the basis of this stuff... you've townread people for bad reasoning,
literally in this game
. I'm not even doing that, I'm just NOT scumreading them for it. My tr on Somnus is because his posts seemed like genuine town irritation, rather than showing tone and behaviour someone with three+ games as mafia would actually try to show.
In post 831, Bellaphant wrote:My point is your play should show some flow overall. This means your words match your actions and you at least have an internal narrative. You don't have a good answer for 'cheap used 50% of his posts to be on leading wagons', or 'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game', which is not a posting style issue. It's funny to me that instead I've managed to reduce the great editor to 'kinda silly'.
You've not engaged with the core of what I said since we started having this chat.
I like pressure D1. It's how I read people. Hence wagons. I'd be shocked if you hadn't encountered this.
'cheaps' reads don't even look convincing over a paragraph, let alone a game' is a value judgement, so I'll address the flow thing. If you're not convinced by my reads because they shift... I don't know what else I can say to you. What "flow" do you want when there are potentially dozens of pages between readslists? If you want to sr me because you need to see changes take place in real time, then policy elim me, because I'm not going to give you that.
@Cheapside - can you explain your read on me more? Also, irt Somnus - my read on D1 was based on them showing what I thought were obvious signs of irritability. Imagine that you’re on you’re fourth or fifth (?) game and have never rolled Town before. Suddenly this time you did. Would you be happy or mad about that? It’s odd to me that we have the same substance for a read but opposite conclusions. Am I wrong or do you just know better?
Also, if you are familiar at all with MU then you know your posts complaining about the game state would probably earn you some SRs. IME players who are mad because others post a lot are typically scum. A busy thread is a hard one to hide and blend into.
Your posts are constructive, reasonably aggressive, and based on solid justification. Nothing jumps out as a reason to sr you. The only reason you're not higher up is because I do not get the sense that you'd readily give something away as scum, so I can't really put a solid tr. It was a short read because I don't have many thoughts on you.
On the fourth game, I'd be resigned - and with a 2:1 winrate, calm and collected. I don't think it's strange that we've come to different conclusions based on psychological considerations, as neither of us know that much about Somnus' thought processes.
Complaints about activity being dubious is definitely fair enough, but it's easy enough to hide if >50% of the day is two people. Until my vote on Vasex, I seem to have been basically invisible to most players. That's precisely the problem with flooding the thread. In any case, people seem to be more interested in my reads than the complaint/vote yesterday, surpisingly enough.
I'd like to at least see Corwin try to explain stuff. I am struggling to see what excuse could be given for the switch in 731 and 797 noted in rad's 857 though.
Name me a more widely town read player than Spartan at end of D1, continuing on to name me a harder mislim than Spartan. I'll wait.
Spartan had a strong focus on you, as can be seen from a glance at his ISO.
Now, mafia are perfectly capable of framing someone, and the logic behind the nightkill is often pretty opaque until after the game, so the nk itself would be a weak reason to sr you, but... immediately posting a "nothing to see there, don't bother" as soon as Whisky declares intent to look into it? You see how this looks, right?
Yeah, I agree about nightkill analysis, as you can see from my post. I was more worried about you trying to stop discussion. The fact that you openly admit to that is confusing, but I don't think particularly excuses it.
If you're going to suggest I'm copying Somnus, please actually give evidence. Four numbers would be enough, it's not that hard.
Not much time today, but questions should be answered.
Corwinoid wrote:I really do feel bad I got hit with so much shit all at once right after too. Replacing in is hard, and that didn't help... I got my strongest overall reaction out there and then it just kind of ran off and it seems like everyone just wanted him gone for shitting things up instead of talking me off the lie/joke (that I *still* don't read as a joke... maybe he's just that unfunny).
That's reasonable, I was astonished anyone was willing to replace in to the slot in this thread. Hope your RL stuff goes ok.
In post 904, Corwinoid wrote:Same question to Cheap and BBT. If I was so off on my read and how I felt about that, why didn't you two shut me down instead of eliminating him?
Fair question. The early joke is one of the few aspects of Vasex's play that didn't rub me the wrong way. Even if I hadn't liked it, I doubt it would have been enough to eliminate him. My vote was because I spent hours going through the thread, only to realise the person making 1/3 of the posts didn't actually read people's posts carefully enough to know their reads. (And I'd like to note that while my post betrayed some emotional tone, if anything I'd have been more pissed off as scum.)
At first, I was suspiscious of Somnus for his reaction to the early joke. But then you reacted in a similar vein, and before that, there was BBT's 242 in which he just... takes Vasex completely at face value?
I can in theory sr
three
people for this and assume one is just town gone down a very bad rabbithole. I think the more rational thing to do is to assume that because at least one town genuinely thinks Vasex's joke was a massive red flag, up to three could. So yeah... not going to vote you for that.
--------------
I'm still a bit worried about the issue brought up in 857. I understand that interpretations change and you look more at behaviour, but you appeared to have read the post where I voted Vasex quite carefully, as you picked out a reference to you that wasn't by name. I guess one way of rephrasing the question would be: why
didn't
you see it as an ATE putting us at E-1 and forcing a hammer at first?
So... going to give a blow-by-blow of my responses to the last five pages. I guess I'm choosing between a corwin elim and a BBT one... didn't get a huge amount of info on Rad, Whisky here, as they weren't under pressure. Irritating if they're deep cover scum, but not a great deal I can do there. Would have gone with BBT in a heartbeat at the start of the day, but Corwin did have one very weird post in 857.
Corwin's excuses seem plausible. Town reads shift, and he would have been very sympathetic with my vote on Vasex initially, as Vasex did the less than funny avatar stealing gag. Such a well-considered response would be weird for a scum capable of the slip-up Rad notes in 857, which was my main sr on him.
: would have been made with some confidence that I and probably a few other people too were willing to see an elim in BBT/Bella, so maybe a bit dramatic. Don't love the "flip me" stuff... people will if they want to, otherwise they won't. Agree with the Bella-won't-townread-BBT thing raising alarm bells, it's way for mafia to coordinate more safely.
Also, I don't consider anything a
solve
unless it's a mechanical solve. People are unpredictable and weird.
919 very obvious cherrypicking of the ISO. Spartan never claimed to have dropped their SR of BBT, and mostly mentioned him before the last two posts floating ideas about me and mq. If BBT town, play this bad doesn't justify their posting so much.
In post 924, Rad wrote:A bbt Bella scum team has dominated town so hard that I refuse to believe in it.
I mean, not really, BBT just posted a whole lot and Bella stayed in the background D1. It wouldn't astonish me, and it's hardly dominating. The two of them attacked my readslist hard at the start of the day, I told them their arguments were stupid, and they withdrew. If this is meant to be powerwolfing, it's very hedged.
Then again, if any scumteam were to dominate a game, it'd be one made of two SEs.
Spoiler: 38
BBT demonstrates actually reading the Spartan ISO, doesn't engage with the main idea that Spartan had a vote on him since mid-D1. Quibbles over whether Spartan named any other scumteams or had BBT/Bella as fixed... like yeah, Somnus doesn't strongly suggest otherwise. BBT misrepresenting, changing what's at stake.
"I don't feel like Spartan ended the day scum reading me."
Says Bella. Well, we can't directly tell from their ISO, so yeah, let's just throw that subjective judgement out there, it's interesting. These posts...
993 - "it wasn't many wagons, and anyway it was an accident" - pick one. 934 - "Why not cheap, they also voted x" - it's pretty clear from Somnus' posts that this is a Bella/BBT D2 behaviour thing they're thinking about. And I haven't exactly rolled with either of them D2, or pushed as aggressively as they have for an elim. So this is true but irrelevant, like a lot of Bella's observations.
More of this sort of thing... Bella looks like they're panicking a bit here, which is odd for town!Bella as BBT looks more like they're first on the chopping block for Somnus in any case. More "also cheap", which I guess is fair enough.
Hm. "wofom", "collataterol", "bsd"... Bella can usually spell. Pfp likely but written FAST in any case.
And then finally a cessation of engagement, presumably until Somnus responds, with 936.
Rad being aggressive, Whisky being unusally reasonable and ready to change their mind, especially for a strong mafia player. That last one disturbing, esp as whisky did suggest he was open to persuasion re: Somnus earlier, to me I think.
In post 949, whiskey delta wrote:I think back to D2 start where I am showing signs of going after Cheap/Corwin to which I received praise and TRs from BBT/Bella.
Town-binned.
Has anyone asked what reads these two actually have on each other? It’s the only question that really matters tbh.
I was about to ask bbt his thoughts on Bella just a few min ago but I backed off. Not sure why I did. I think I really don't want bbt to be scum and I don't think he'll have a great read on Bella which will push me more to him being scum...
So what about Bella??? Should we lim Bella???
WUT? Bella and not BBT? Going to keep a careful eye on this.
996 Misrepresentation. If anything, Spartan argued conversely at one point.
Ok, Rad finally explains why Bella. It's not a crazy reason.
Ah, Nero Cain. The novocaine that stops you killing your relatives. We've all been there.
Somnus' post, while containing some decent stuff, is melodramatic and involves a dubious identification of their own play with the outcome of the entire game. If I were to vote in Bella/BBT, it'd be more along the lines of whisky's "What if it just
is
what it looks like?". Dramatically mellower.
So before Somnus started all this, where I was was "Bella/BBT happy to lead the game D2, really don't like their play thus far but maybe this is just a very developed, somewhat suboptimal town game in one or both cases, need to have another look at their attack on me?"
Their responses haven't been great. But they also haven't been suprising. I mean, BBT very openly admits to doing dubious stuff like pushing wagons and shutting down discussion he doesn't like. I'm partial to doing openly scummy stuff myself, but not so much past D1. BBT goes for a very bullish, above the law, "I'm town's only hope" style, which I don't love but I know some very strong mafia players do have a penchant for. I think Bella's posts have been largely trifling, for an SE exuding that kind of calm competence. And their responses to Somnus have been the same way: BBT shooting out dozens of posts taking issue with any little thing and acting outraged that someone would sr him - HIM! Bella... pecking weakly about at small issues, then fading out behind BBT. So their responses to this haven't been inconsistent with the issues I've had with their game so far.
I have a bit of a tendency to OMGUS, at least in response to the more threatening pushes. So I didn't go through Bella/BBT's attack on my D2 reads for a while, because of the strong chance I'd immediately sr them. Having looked at it again though...
Here's the thing. The misrepresentations and shifting positions in their push on me, maybe that's just me reading too much into stuff. But what comes after is weird. They just stop speaking to me on page 35 after I defend my reads on Somnus and Bella. They declare I'm still in their scumpools with Somnus, say that Corwin is the common denominator, and readily put him at E-1. It's a total binary: from "pressure Cheapside and Somnus" to "elim Corwin". And they
leap
onto Corwin after Rad notices something genuinely quite dubious about corwin's posts... something "towns only hope" (821) apparently failed to see, for all their suspiscions about Corwin. Before, BBT's mostly been asking Corwin, Somnus and I why we won't vote for one another, but now, there's an actually decent reason to elim Corwin, and they're eager to have the day over sharpish.
Umm, if anyone would like anything final from me, just let me know. I'll be in the corner crying.
You're a strong player, so briefly giving us your take on today will be helpful down the line if you flip green.
It's clear that me/somnus/corwin is your scumpool, but would be good to know which you judge most likely, or if Rad or Whisky have pinged you at all in their response to the Somnus thing.
(I know a lot of this is already in your ISO, but a post for posterity would prevent arguments about what you really meant).
Still catching up, but if someone does hammer, I'd be HIGHLY impressed by a red flip after a post with that tone. If scum!Somnus tricked me that well, I wouldn't even be mad to be the likely next elim.
If Somnus is scum, they're either acting aggrieved and angry town without ever having been aggrieved and angry town, or being coached well astonishingly well. If they're mafia, I'll likely be eliminated tomorrow, but my gut says they're not.
Bella/BBT have basically been aligned all day. Even before Somnus' post, it's like they're a hydra. Instead of seeking read consensus with Rad and Whisky, their townpool, or trying hard to find town in Somnus, Corwin and I, they've been mostly interested in getting their ostensible scumpool to vote one another, or hopping on wagons. Which doesn't feel great. If this is town, it's weird play from SEs. I really want to read these two independently, but the fact that they're acting as a pressure/voting bloc the entire day is making that very difficult.
Rad and Whisky haven't been under pressure today. Not much I can find that's alignment indicative.
Corwin's most recent vote could be interpreted as trying to save their own skin. Bella/BBT happy to go along with it.
Ugh. BBT's play isn't townie or constructive enough to justify his being 25% of the thread posts. And then there's a lot of garbage like this:
In post 1009, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I'm a strong player (is that why you're eliminating me?) What a strange sentence.
Prime examples of posting words not quite just for the sake of posting, but for the sake of people reading more posts pushing one's own narrative.
Repeat something enough times, and people believe it. It's a good tactic, I'm not salty about it, though I think an SE using it in a newbie game displays a certain amount of self-involvement.
In post 1067, Cheapside wrote:
Rad and Whisky haven't been under pressure today. Not much I can find that's alignment indicative.
I wandered into cheap's iso and this pinged me.
I get this take for whiskey. He's kinda lurker and swoops in and out randomly and everyone has a town read on him.
But for me? Excuse me, what? I haven't given you enough content to make a read on me? Are you kidding?
What's with this claim that I haven't been under pressure? What more do you want to see? People to think I'm scum? How about you apply some pressure if you believe that's what it will take to read me properly, or are you content to just sit there and complain that no one else is doing it?
I haven't found much alignment indicative stuff on you today, because I don't think you've been under that much pressure, and that's usually what it takes to get a read.
I mean, you've posted stuff and participated in the game a lot today, sure, that's content, but you don't seem weak enough for me to have a strong read on you based entirely on that. All I have to go on is your response to the D1 wagon, which isn't nothing, and is what I'm basing most of my tr on you on. It's not D1, I'm not going to put pressure on you for no real reason. This... isn't a big deal.
1071 might be. I'm going to have to take a very careful look at that. There's something I don't understand going on, I really expected the Somnus lim to happen.
Don't really know what to say to the stuff about Rad. Yeah, I could randomly try to generate pressure on the person that hasn't come under scrutiny today by hunting for and picking out small points and pushing them hard on it. Is that going to actually put them under pressure? Doubtful, unless I saw something that very strongly indicated they were mafia, in which case I'd just try to elim them on it. I wasn't saying I particularly need to see them under pressure anyway, I saw that yesterday.
Yet another wagon U-turn incoming? I imagine Bella and BBT will be very happy to elim in me/Corwin.
Learning that an SE only needs three games... interesting. All our SEs here have substantially more than that, as well as the wisdom that comes with age and years of play though, so doesn't really change my thinking.
-----------------------
Anyway, I don't consider hypocrisy a particular scumtell, but I did wonder about this:
In post 1125, whiskey delta wrote:Part of my issue with Cheapside is that I think they argue well, but that also makes them harder for me to read. The are "right" most of the time, but I still don't feel great with their arguments. This last post, for instance, while technically correct regarding BBT doesn't really move the needle much. Acknowledging that hypocrisy isn't a scum tell makes the whole thing seem pointless?
Between BBT/Cheapside I don't see T/T.
It was indeed a pretty pointless point, yes. Seeing that kind of thing in BBT's ISO, you feel you have to say
something
...
Anyway. It is late. Hopefully some kind of insight tomorrow if nobody ends the day.
Well, that was very quick and not deeply explained, but sure, I want this to be over too. Not going to analyse the votes on me because difficult to be objective about them. Final reads...
Would still go for BBT over anyone else. They post low-value stuff constantly, aggressively misrepresent people, don't bother actually quoting things they claimed happen or properly reading the thread. Content over quality is not only always scum-sided, with experienced players it's an indicator that they're mafia. Would like to note that on my flip, visibly everyone who has died had a hard focus on BBT.
Bella presumably scum if BBT is, despite some distancing play at the end of today.
Don't really know in somnus/corwin. Tone read is town on Somnus, null on corwin, despite dubious behaviour.
If scum in rad/whisky, Town is very unlikely to survive with Bella/BBT bloc voting in the corwin/somnus pool, so gg.
Not going to go back through a thousand posts again for a final look, as most of them are painful to read fluff, and I have no idea when the elim will come. Guess we'll see if BBT does actually hammer me and end this interminable day.
) posts since I last looked in. Please don't rapidly hammer anyone, there's useful time left in the day. UNVOTE: 
