Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You | Endgame

[Rad]

Hello! I haven't played in like... 8 years. First time on this forum. Old games were on teamliquid's site. I'll be most active late night EST. Looking forward to catching up on the thread later tonight!

[Rad]

I'm catching up on the conversation now.

Quick rule clarification if someone can answer, though I think I know the answer based on my reading... however it seems different than in my old games. Back then, a lynch wouldn't happen until Day ended, so if Day ended in 24 hours, a lynch wouldn't happen until then regardless of the votes. At that point, whoever had the most votes would be lynched. It seems like the rule here is that as soon as someone has the majority of players voting for them, Day ends and they're lynched. Is that right? So even though Day ends in 10 days, if there are a majority of votes on a player before then, Day will immediately end and they will be lynched? Thanks for any clarification

[Rad]

1. How long have you played the game of mafia, not just on this site, but ever?
2. Do you like playing the role of town or mafia better?
3. Are you an active poster or a lurker?
4. Do you find it hard to lie or it something you have no issues with?

1. I played on and off for a few years, from around 2010 to 2014.
2. I enjoy town better. Town is more fun, mafia is more stressful. A mafia win is way more satisfying than a town win though!
3. Back in the day I LIVED in these threads. No chance of that now. Got a family and a job but I plan on putting in enough time to keep up and contribute.
4. Lying gives me anxiety. Probably why town is fun and mafia is stressful

[Rad]

@xheap, basically the answer is 'i wouldn't' , but in that case yes, if I was massively unsure.i wouldn't want to lose the pr. It would also sort itself out over night, basically. Tbf day 1 is all about Info gathering and should move fairly quickly.

I don't feel like this conversation about vasex is helpful/I don't want it to be the topic of convo for the day.

Why is a conversation about a player who was caught lying about something on page 1 not helpful? It should literally be THE topic at this point, since it’s the only thing of meaningful substance that has occurred. Take a 30 second look through his ISOs of the two games he’s played on this account and tell me he was “hacked”.

We have something to discuss far more relevant than you’re virtually ever going to get this early in a game, and it’s being dismissed so far. Why is that?

His lie isn't a scum tell. Any townie who's not taking the game too seriously and wants to mess around could easily make that blunder. But lying is an easy thing to point out as a good reason to eliminate. That IMO is more of a scum tell. After they flip town you just maintain that the lie was a big deal and the townie messed up by so obviously lying. FoS @Somnus

[Rad]

I'm catching up on the conversation now.

Quick rule clarification if someone can answer, though I think I know the answer based on my reading... however it seems different than in my old games. Back then, a lynch wouldn't happen until Day ended, so if Day ended in 24 hours, a lynch wouldn't happen until then regardless of the votes. At that point, whoever had the most votes would be lynched. It seems like the rule here is that as soon as someone has the majority of players voting for them, Day ends and they're lynched. Is that right? So even though Day ends in 10 days, if there are a majority of votes on a player before then, Day will immediately end and they will be lynched? Thanks for any clarification

Just an fyi, here it's called "elimination" when a player gets voted out. Same exact thing, just more PC I guess. And yes, from what I understand whenever the hammer drops the game moves into Twilight phase, and then Night once the mod posts the reveal.

Ok sounds good. Thanks for clarifying! Also I'm now using "elimination" instead of "lynch" so thanks for that

[Rad]

If that’s how you feel: I’ll make you and everyone else a deal once everyone has entered the game.

We vote me out Day 1. After I flip green, we (the still living town)at least drop the ridiculous idea that lying is “too scummy to be scum” and start at least considering that the worst case scenario of flipping a player who is clearly going to be negative town utility and has no problem lying as town...is far from a harmful mislim if said-player does turn up town.

To add to this, after we wagon me off for catching someone lying on page 1, look to the people who immediately white-knighted Vasex. In the event he eventually flips town, the people who quickly changed the subject and are clinging to “too scummy to be scum” are likely to have 1 scum in them that was looking for fake town-Cred down the line. So let’s hopefully get those last two players into the game, wagon me off, and reference these two posts as my legacy, please. Thanks.

I have a few things to say about this...

1. This is an absolutely an awful idea. Either bad town play or scum bluff. In the case that you're town and you get eliminated, obviously the rest of town needs to look at how that happened and decide if and where the scum got involved. In the case that you martyr yourself "for the greater good", anyone on the wagon to eliminate you has the defense of going with your plan, and there's not a guaranteed scum in the group of people who didn't care about your issues with vasex's pointless/irrelevant/obvious lie.

If you're town, you need to survive for town, not sacrifice yourself for town, and especially not in some orchestrated way that muddies up the reads on everyone.

If you're scum, please continue down this path

2. Who has said anything about vasex being "too scummy to be scum"? Did I miss that? I personally said his lie wasn't a scum tell at all, not that it was too scummy to be scum. It was just irrelevant and could easily be a lazy town playing poorly for laughs.

Now if you catch someone in a relevant lie, absolutely, we should focus on that. In fact that's how most end game scenarios go in my experience, pointing out lies or hypocricies.

3. Regarding eliminating someone who is "clearly going to be negative town utility and has no problem lying as town...". Policy elims should be a last resort scenario when there's no better option. Fixating on an easy policy elim so early like this feels like over-eager scum play.

I had "dropped" it, but two players kept circling back to the topic, even when I had gone hours without mentioning it or posting at all.

You're referring to me and whiskey delta, yeah? Just because you made your last post on that topic some hours before I started making mine means nothing. It's a forum game. We're all playing async at different times. If the content I have to work with is 3 hours old, that's just how this game works. Most of my posting will likely be late night EST like I mentioned before.

Give me something to work with then if you're unwilling to discuss a player caught lying on page 1.

It was worth discussing briefly. Determining it was a lie was useful. Fixating on it feels like scum play.

Anyway, we're still missing a couple players here and they could easily be lurker scum laughing at town self-destructing.

[Rad]

Somnus v-v-very interesting and - suddenly - make me feel nervous. Don't know why. You, Bella, looks towny. Italiano playing not like another game in which I can see him. Vasex is joking like towny. But I can't say that I have some reasons to give scum-role to somebody at this moment.

Hello! What alignment was Italiano in the game you're referring to? What do you see him doing differently in this game?

[Rad]

Wake up town. Low activity is generally bad for town. Scum wants to lurk. It's hard for scum to create pro-town conversation and avoid scum slips.

Some questions for people:

1. Do you agree that low activity is bad for town?
2. What general time per day can we expect your input?
3. Who do you think has the most relevant input so far? How about the least relevant input?

[Rad]

i will be later, not today. too lazy and also busy

here is mafia
VOTE: ItalianoVD

Come on man, I was gonna claim scum and now I have to lie about being town!

So no bueno huh? No one picked up on this? Oh well too late.

Yeah I noticed. You were both joking though? :shrug:

[Rad]

Also, appreciate all the answers for the questions. Like I said I get scumread for it most times, or I get sarcastic or facetious answers lol, which are amusing and still good for being able to read/sort people, but I like to get to know the players I play with when I don't know them. Like Vasex is the only player I know from the list.

Speaking of your list - what did you hope to gain from that specific list of questions? What was your goal? Was there any question in particular that you think would be useful to help town? Did you gain any useful insight from any of the answers?

[Rad]

i will be later, not today. too lazy and also busy

here is mafia
VOTE: ItalianoVD

Come on man, I was gonna claim scum and now I have to lie about being town!

So no bueno huh? No one picked up on this? Oh well too late.

Yeah I noticed. You were both joking though? :shrug:

Yup and wanted to see who would jump on me.

OOoo and what if someone jumped on you?

[Rad]

Good morning! Hooray, look at that, we have activity.

Day One's are boring though and I'd like to speed the process up.

Is there anything interesting in the 5 pages that you think I should read?

So this guy comes in first thing, uninterested in reading a meager 5 pages to catch up, tries to get a wagon vote going with the basis of "nothing else to do day 1", lays a vote on Somnus because he "respects his scum game" of which the guy's had a whole 2 wins and 1 loss... and in the process paints himself as scum. I was already leaning scum on Italiano, who he's replacing.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

More worried about rad, tbh. I flip from massively town reading them one post to having to check it's still the same slot next post as I find it so odd.

Curious which post flipped your opinion on me. You're a town read to me currently, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I'd like to see some more feedback from mq.bosco. Ideally more useful than her last posts. I know you want to lurk mq.bosco (as a self proclaimed "lazy poster") but I don't think that's very helpful to town. There's plenty of content now to react to.

[Rad]

What is your opinion of your scum-game, Somnus?

Generally cautious Day 1 because losing 1 of the 2 maf in a 9'er on Day 1 is an absolute disaster. Usually open up more as the game progresses. I dunno. Exciting but stressful.

I will say that even though I have a slight scum read on you, your sort of reckless activity was the thing making you just suspicious to me instead of a straight out vote. So it's nice to hear you explain what I thought I could be seeing. That said, another explanation is you're tired of being mafia and in order to avoid the stress, you're just going to yolo this game.

Coming out of your last game as scum, before you got your role for this game, how were you planning on approaching this game if you drew scum again? I remember pulling mafia a few games in a row back in the day and remember this thought weighing heavily on my mind when deciding if i wanted to even join another game or give it a break for a while.

[Rad]

Rad

: Dubious, lots of fluff with little commitment - weak general or uninteresting questions, calls to town to post more, kinda nothingy posts like 100, 98, 95. I'm leaning scum. Okay, his last post was a commitment, it was a vote on blue and a weak attack on mq. The other way around might have been

something

, but...

I'd like to respond to your assessment of me directly.

My posts and reasons:
100 - I was curious what his response would be. Aren't you? I mean, if someone jumped on him for his obvious joke, how would you read that? I would read it null. So what was his goal? I was trying to get him to explain it openly which would be good content IMO (particularly because I don't think there could have been a good explanation, making his whole plan obvious nonsense fluff trying to look useful).

98 - I felt his list had no real use beyond getting people to talk, which isn't necessarily scummy considering we were at the start of day 1, but explaining more about why he chose those questions in particular could create content. It's very difficult for scum to explain something like that in my experience.

95 - Again, I'm trying to get him to explain why no one jumping on him even matters. Someone jumping on him for that isn't a scum tell, so what's his point? I wanted him to spell it out so we can understand him better.

I have a null read on you right now, though this assessment post is better than your first, where I felt you were just summarizing events (an easy way to look useful). I'm going to have to read it a few times over the course of the day so I can better understand your thoughts on everyone else, but I wanted to get a response about your thoughts of me out there sooner than later.

[Rad]

@rad, I said most of what I wanted to say in response to bbt about you ; I like your longer, content posts but your 'wake up town' and trying to extend rqs feels really pointless and 'look at me, I'm so town' (lamist).

Fair. Scum can do that too, for sure. I did try to get the activity ball rolling though with my questions about when people can be expected to be more active, and trying to get everyone to agree that lurker town is dead town. Maybe I jumped the gun and lurking wasn't really going to be a big issue here, but I had just seen 12 hours pass with nothing happening at all, and our most active poster (somnus) was taking a 24 hour break for the sake of us talking about something else besides him and vasex (not helpful imo, just reinforces lurker town). Looks like most of the activity might end up happening while I'm sleeping

[Rad]

ok, mq.bosco is townie

How are you getting this read? She has posted very little and her posts read null to me.

[Rad]

I don't know what I did wrong... It's been a while...

Spell out vote instead of just v

[Rad]

Pretty sure I only used v before, not sure what's happened.

Will let Mod sort it. I just voted for you, though.

Yes, I know you did You should probably explain why, but hey, that's your call, scum

[Rad]

You voted for me.

So I voted you back.

Plus, I like wagons.

At least you're consistent

[Rad]

Vasex

: meming but active, helped create content. Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town.

Are you joking about "Also townread me rapidly, so definitely town."?

[Rad]

Vasex not jumping on the wagon for me is super townie. Him doing so could be a funny meme, consistent with his play so far, where he just does what the guy asked him to do, but it puts me in range (4 votes) of being hammered by scum (5 votes). Not worth the laughs.

Top town reads for me right now are Bella and Vasex. The more I'm reading Cheapside the more I lean town, but I have my reservations.

[Rad]

Rads #160 & #161 he spends a lot of time defending himself more worried about others opinion on him which is more of a scumtell. I personally didnt like his #91 on the surface it can look townie to try and get engagement from other players but its easy for scum to do when general engagement is low. Posting frequently doesnt indicate town, scum both want to go under the radar but they also want to dictate the conversation and point away from themselves and their partner.

I didn't like the questions trying to get everyone to tell you what time they are available can easily lead to calling someone out when they werent here at the time they had originally said they would be available which could be down to anything irl not just that they are lurking etc.

Additionally asking a generic question to everyone on who has had the most relevant input and least relevant input so far imo is trying to get others to do their scumhunting for them, rather than saying to someone what do you think of this post in question and does it effect your read on them. I just dont like asking who has the least relevant input especially so early on in the game when some people have barely posted it just seems lazy to me.

I'm gonna say this now, I think there is 1 scum between Rad and BlueBloodedToffee but I dont think they are a scumteam. I dont think Rads first move after some pressure is applied to him is to vote his scumpartner.

Defending oneself isn't a scum tell. Both town and scum can do that. I think the content of my defense is more important than the fact that I'm defending myself. Your call on the quality of that content but I'm happy with it.

My questions from before were to try to create relevant content. As town you want to get people talking and sharing opinions so you have content to look at then and later in the game. Consistency in your opinions as scum is really difficult because it's not a real opinion, it's manufactured, so getting people to share opinions is important.

I do like how you're at least opening analyzing my posts. You're creating opinions that can be referenced later and inconsistencies in the way you think could be a scum tell. That's really risky as scum.

[Rad]

openly* analyzing

[Rad]

Vasex not jumping on the wagon for me is super townie.

This is wrong but probably makes you town.

UNVOTE:

No, it's correct, because vasex doesn't have a scum read on me. If he had a scum read on me, sure, he should have felt free to jump on that wagon. Wagons are fine when there's a reason. The one on me got dangerous with your vote which had no good reason for it, and would have been an easy setup if vasex had played along.

Thank you for the unvote though.

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

Been thinking about this all day. I'm losing confidence in my scum read for BlueBloodedToffee. Could be town trying to stir the pot and see what happens. OMGUS isn't inherently scummy. I think his actions have at least created some good content. I get that not all content is good content, and scum want to muddy the waters with bad content, but everyone should have some improved reads based on how he came into the game so that's a positive.

That's more than can be said about mq's input. So I'll give her some more time to participate and then park my vote on her if it's not sufficient.

[Rad]

@BlueBloodedToffee I think you were talking to me with that accidental quote? So in response, I don't want to park my vote on mq until she's had a chance to respond to everything that's happened since her last visit. She's a null read for me and maybe she's just busy and hasn't gotten a chance to participate. I'm fine with not voting someone right now, we have time to let the lurkers catch up.

[Rad]

Btw, my first post contained no summaries of events

I was referring to post 69. I read this post and wrote down this note about you:

"Summarizing Somnus's activity based on stuff others of us are saying. Useful or pretending to be useful? (SUS)"

So basically I wasn't sure what to think about it, but it stood out as something to take note of and keep an eye on.

I acknowledge you give reasonable explanations in 160, although I still see them as points about RVS posts in a post-RVS point in the game

Sorry this feels like a really meta thing to consider. I had to look up what RVS meant and I can't currently recognize when this "stage" of day 1 has completed. Sounds like an experience thing. Not to say I don't have experience with this game, but back when I used to play, I'd never run into that idea before.

Ok, so this will keep happening. I guess townpoints for reading my readslist, but yes, that was a joke, I have not ruled out the possibility that vasex is buddying hard. I'm being facetious around vasex. With D1 play like theirs, it's that or lim them.

I sat there and looked back and forth at your Vasex read vs your Spartan read in post 156, and couldn't reconcile the stance you took between the two. Before I got too wrapped up in the inconsistency, I realized you were probably just making a vasex style joke about vasex, and wanted to make sure before making that a big deal (which it's not).

I've been thinking similar things about Spartan that you're pointing out.

[Rad]

So something I like to do is take my heavy town reads and really scrutinize them.

So I looked at Bella. Why do I think Bella is town?

#6 - random vote
#16 - info about availability
#31 - nothing
#35 - talking about another game
#37 - talking about another game
#40 - gives some theory, points out the obvious that convo about vasex isn't helpful
#67 - agrees with me about vasex
#71 - points out the obvious that somnus martyring himself is a bad idea
#72 - says he town reads me and cheap
#76 - points out more obvious bad town moves. Sets himself up to elim vasex at some point when he gets tired of the memes
#78 - pressures somnus and...
#82 - unvotes somnus because somnus magically convinced him
#87 - is here in time to ask mq for input
#102 - suggests day 1 is a crapshoot and we shouldn't care about it. Questions Italiano's content but doesn't follow up on it.
#103 - random vote on mq bosco
#122 - new guy is in, time to talk about stuff outside the game
#139 - summarizes somnus's play, throws shade on me
#141 - clarifies mq bosco vote
#159 - throws more shade on me
#199 - weak question on BlueBloodedToffee (which was easily responded to by BlueBloodedToffee), throws shade on him
#201 - Keeps vasex open to elim, talks more about outside this game
#213 - talks more about another game

A note I have about Bella from early:

"Bellaphant & Somnus - not a scum team"

A scum!Bella makes a town!Somnus, town!Vasex, town!BlueBloodedToffee (maybe), and town!mq

I think my initial assessment of him was based on him making me feel correct in my reads. Trying to be more objective about this, I don't think that makes him town, and looking at his input for this game so far, I don't actually see him doing anything useful for town.

VOTE: Bellaphant

Sorry I don't know how to easily turn those #page references into a link. I was turning them into a link with my previous post by manually typing out the post code but there's too many here to do that. If there's a shortcut, please someone let me know

[Rad]

Now for Vasex, my other heavy town read:

#10 - random vote
#12 - town read on cheapside, joking
#14 - joke
#18 - joke
#19 - content creating question
#21 - answered Italiano's questions
#23 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#25 - joke
#26 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#32 - joke
#33 - joke
#48 - joke
#90 - town read on somnus
#105 - scum read on Italiano, and jokes
#143 - scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#145 - explanation of read, as a joke
#147 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#149 - town read on mq
#150 - trying to get cheapside to unvote somnus (cause he has town read on somnus)
#152 - listed town reads, reinforces scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#153 - edit by way of correction
#171 - clarifies mq town read with meta explanation, and scum read on italiano/BlueBloodedToffee
#174 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#176 - getting content out of BlueBloodedToffee
#178 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#186 - applying pressure to cheap with me
#187 - preserving town, guarding from bad wagons
#188 - explanation of not being active enough (but you are! it's ok vasex, you're doing great)
#208 - detailed explanation about mq

Awesome town play by vasex. OR he's scum team with mq, but I think he's just meta-ing that relationship too hard. I'm betting town here.

[Rad]

Bella - 71, 76, 78 saved a potential early game derail. 102 sort of echoes my feelings about Italiano. The whole "nobody took the bait on my joke" thing starts getting into LAMIST territory for me. Would have preferred to see the vote follow that up in 103 but I ~get the move here. I like the interaction with BBT in 193. The bits about being terrified of rolling Mafia read genuine on its face. Overall I get a more "monitoring" than "directing" traffic vibe.

I appreciate your full post, but let's talk about Bella.

"saved a potential early game derail":

#71 - It's not like he was the leader here, in his own words: "Three people have told you that this is silly. We can't all be scum."
#76 - Still just reinforcing what others have said, and throws in some shade on Vasex that he can use later.
#78 - A scum!Bella would know if Vasex is town. He'd also know if he's scum and is trying to save him. Regardless, Somnus's stance on this was ridiculous and easy to defend against. He finishes by claiming he just doesn't understand somnus but doesn't really direct him in any way that helps produce more good content. Also note that he just drops the vote on Somnus in #82 because somnus said something that Bella thought was magically town (and never explains).

#102 - yeah it's a weird interaction and he goes nowhere with it. Why does him claiming it's weird and you thinking it's weird make him town?

You get the move on mq with #103. Sure, I do too. But why pressure mq over Italiano if he thinks that Italiano's move was scummy?

He can be sincere about being terrified of being mafia while still being mafia. It's a legit emotion. It's not a town read.

How does "monitoring" help town? If he's a proven role, sure, monitor away. He's not. He's potential scum and monitoring is the same as not contributing.

[Rad]

Before whiskey posts his next 4...

I want to say there's a strong potential for Bella/whiskey scum team.

His reads:

Bella - just love
Somnus - leaves shade
Cheap - buddying up to cheap. Is it because cheap is putting in analysis effort?
Vasex - leaves shade

Non-commital. No strong takes. There's a ton of content in this game already, I expect more here.

[Rad]

I looked through Spartan's posts again.

He's new to the game so hasn't had a chance to play much (7 posts). The guy he replaced made no posts.

He's already given some significant stances (voted me, pressuring BlueBloodedToffee, pressuring Vasex, town read on Somnus)

He's given town more material in 7 posts than Bella has in 23.

Let's say he's scum and survives Day 1. He's already established what kind of input he plans to give to this game. This level of input is really difficult to continue in late game as scum. And @Cheap if your assessment of him is correct, that he's being mostly useless, he won't be able to dig himself out of that.

@Cheap - what do you think of Bella and my read on him? What do you think about changing your vote from Spartan to Bella?

[Rad]

Before whiskey posts his next 4...

I want to say there's a strong potential for Bella/whiskey scum team.

His reads:

Bella - just love
Somnus - leaves shade
Cheap - buddying up to cheap. Is it because cheap is putting in analysis effort?
Vasex - leaves shade

Non-commital. No strong takes. There's a ton of content in this game already, I expect more here.

Yikes.

Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we? I haven't even finished lol

I think it's fair to give my read based on what you've given so far, even if you haven't finished But please, finish! I give my reads based on all available information at the moment, so the more information, the better.

[Rad]

Irrelevant response to my statements. Also, why give play advice to someone who you don't know is town? Why not let potential scum bury themself if you think my posts are so bad?

Coincidentally, it's 2am, so I'm going to bed. Enjoy your breathing time?

[Rad]

@BlueBloodedToffee I think you were talking to me with that accidental quote? So in response, I don't want to park my vote on mq until she's had a chance to respond to everything that's happened since her last visit. She's a null read for me and maybe she's just busy and hasn't gotten a chance to participate.

I'm fine with not voting someone right now, we have time to let the lurkers catch up.

You went from this...

So something I like to do is take my heavy town reads and really scrutinize them.

So I looked at Bella. Why do I think Bella is town?

#6 - random vote
#16 - info about availability
#31 - nothing
#35 - talking about another game
#37 - talking about another game
#40 - gives some theory, points out the obvious that convo about vasex isn't helpful
#67 - agrees with me about vasex
#71 - points out the obvious that somnus martyring himself is a bad idea
#72 - says he town reads me and cheap
#76 - points out more obvious bad town moves. Sets himself up to elim vasex at some point when he gets tired of the memes
#78 - pressures somnus and...
#82 - unvotes somnus because somnus magically convinced him
#87 - is here in time to ask mq for input
#102 - suggests day 1 is a crapshoot and we shouldn't care about it. Questions Italiano's content but doesn't follow up on it.
#103 - random vote on mq bosco
#122 - new guy is in, time to talk about stuff outside the game
#139 - summarizes somnus's play, throws shade on me
#141 - clarifies mq bosco vote
#159 - throws more shade on me
#199 - weak question on BlueBloodedToffee (which was easily responded to by BlueBloodedToffee), throws shade on him
#201 - Keeps vasex open to elim, talks more about outside this game
#213 - talks more about another game

A note I have about Bella from early:

"Bellaphant & Somnus - not a scum team"

A scum!Bella makes a town!Somnus, town!Vasex, town!BlueBloodedToffee (maybe), and town!mq

I think my initial assessment of him was based on him making me feel correct in my reads. Trying to be more objective about this, I don't think that makes him town, and looking at his input for this game so far, I don't actually see him doing anything useful for town.

VOTE: Bellaphant

Sorry I don't know how to easily turn those #page references into a link. I was turning them into a link with my previous post by manually typing out the post code but there's too many here to do that. If there's a shortcut, please someone let me know

Now for Vasex, my other heavy town read:

#10 - random vote
#12 - town read on cheapside, joking
#14 - joke
#18 - joke
#19 - content creating question
#21 - answered Italiano's questions
#23 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#25 - joke
#26 - replying to somnus early game stuff
#32 - joke
#33 - joke
#48 - joke
#90 - town read on somnus
#105 - scum read on Italiano, and jokes
#143 - scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#145 - explanation of read, as a joke
#147 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#149 - town read on mq
#150 - trying to get cheapside to unvote somnus (cause he has town read on somnus)
#152 - listed town reads, reinforces scum read on BlueBloodedToffee
#153 - edit by way of correction
#171 - clarifies mq town read with meta explanation, and scum read on italiano/BlueBloodedToffee
#174 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#176 - getting content out of BlueBloodedToffee
#178 - pressuring BlueBloodedToffee
#186 - applying pressure to cheap with me
#187 - preserving town, guarding from bad wagons
#188 - explanation of not being active enough (but you are! it's ok vasex, you're doing great)
#208 - detailed explanation about mq

Awesome town play by vasex. OR he's scum team with mq, but I think he's just meta-ing that relationship too hard. I'm betting town here.

...to this within a couple of hours. you're definitely overthinking things but I think this probably makes you Town too.

Yes, I studied Bella's and Vasex's ISO and came up with a new read. Specifically on Bella. My original statement was that I wasn't comfortable in parking a policy vote on mq yet. I think parking a vote on a scum read is totally fine.

Thanks for the town props though.

[Rad]

Morning everyone!

267 - @Spartan I was trying to get Cheap's thoughts on my read on Bella, which I considered a stronger scum read. My reasoning was in 220 "He's given town more material in 7 posts than Bella has in 23."

I never said I have a strong town read on you. I don't, actually. You're kinda null, leaning scum. Notice in 212 I pointed out: "I've been thinking similar things about Spartan that you're pointing out." Compared to my thoughts about Bella, and our lurker mq, I don't see why I would vote you at this stage because again, I do feel you're at least presenting some content that we can look at in a later day and analyze. I was never defending you, I was pushing a Bella elim.

[Rad]

@rad, what's scummy about anything you've mentioned in my iso? Possibly not following up with italiano, but he was replaced, and I know I want to reframe my question to bbt about page 7/8.

I think you could have added some follow up question with Italiano in 102 trying to get a better understanding of the interaction you thought was weird. Like... scum hunt some man, don't just pass off a thought and not follow up.

What's scummy in general in your ISO is your lack of generating useful town content. No real scum hunting. Throwing shade without taking any real stance. I mean, look at my interpretation of your input thus far, I clearly do not believe you're doing anything useful and I spelled that out in post 214.

If you're town, please don't sit here and be some complacent observer. The "there isn't much to do day 1" and "you can't have a good read day 1" arguments should be gone now with how much stuff has happened.

[Rad]

Rad, talk to me about Spartan.

I did in post 272. I think there are better options than him right now, but I lean scum. I haven't gone over his latest post yet. I'm going to spend some time on your posts now.

[Rad]

It's day one. Noones reads need to be super clear

Also, :you can't have good reads day one' is absolutely not what I said. Or believe.

Close enough man, it's essentially what you meant. My point remains, and I'll change my statement for you:

If you're town, please don't sit here and be some complacent observer. The "there isn't much to do day 1" and

"Noones reads need to be super clear"

arguments should be gone now with how much stuff has happened.

[Rad]

185 Rad, can you expand on your reservations regarding Cheap, please?

At that stage, I had a couple issues with him

38 claiming vasex is obviously town. No way. No one's obviously town that quickly. But as scum, you already know who's town, so a scum!Cheap knows that town!Vasex is being a goofball town and it's easy to think that this AI is obvious to everyone else as well. If Cheap is scum, this comment about vasex is actually a scum slip IMO.

But, Cheap could still be town there thinking goofball vasex is town. I mean, that's how I was viewing vasex at that stage (as a goofball town), but i try to stop myself from believing too much in my initial thoughts, no matter how much they make sense to me. He clearly didn't do that and read vasex as town hard enough that he wanted to announce it to everyone.

Second, his 69 just sort of summarized what somnus was doing at a stage where basically the only thing that had happened was somnus stuff. It just hit me like... Ok, thanks for the summary of what everyone should already know!

Then in 156 he spells out his reads. Couldn't tell if this was town being useful or scum trying to look useful. I think him dropping the somnus vote like he did was questionable. Also his vote on me felt like weak reasoning and I'm sure I got a little OMGUS on him lol. ALSO at that stage I was very anti-BBT and he was throwing shade on Italiano while simultaneously hyping you (BBT) up as a strong vet that won't be easy to read D1 (giving you a D1 pass essentially). Felt kinda scum-teamy to me given I was seeing you as scum.

So yeah I had a town read on him but wanted to keep an eye on how his input progressed throughout the game.

[Rad]

You have no problem with Vasex doing the exact same thing but with much less reasoning/thoughts behind said reads?

I view early game vasex similar to how I'm justifying your game entry. Townie behavior to stir up the pot and see what comes of it. I don't take his stated reads all that seriously because he could just be saying whatever to get readable reactions. I also don't think he's a newbie. My main concern with him has to do with his unwavering defense of mq for no clear reason.

OK, so if you can't tell town or scum from reads post then it's surely null?

What did you find questionable about his Somnus vote? And have you managed to get around to my posts regarding Spartan yet?

I felt his UNVOTE of somnus was weak and his redirect to vote for me was also weak.

I lean town on Cheap. It's a difficult read though for me, due to reasons I've stated.

I'm working my way to your spartan stuff...

[Rad]

Also squinting at Somnus right now. I can see what he means by "hey, I did this recently as scum" but I think that dumbs down the intent too much and doesn't taken into account all the rest of Rad's play that goes along with his notes/reevaluation. If it were just the notes, then I would agree, but in this context it looks like an attempt to smear.

I dunno, I get a townie read from somnus for it. A first time town!Somnus is going to look at his successful scum play to find scum, and a town!Somnus claiming he sees me doing the same thing means he truly believes his claim. It could be a scum!Somnus throwing shit to see what sticks though, for sure, but it's reasonable to believe he's town!Somnus spotting similarities.

I think a town!Somnus should really think about it harder. Good scum play emulates town play. So good on you Somnus for pulling that off as scum. You should notice though that it also means that stuff like taking notes, analyzing, reanalyzing, and sharing my thoughts along the way is a townie thing to do. If it wasn't, why would you have tried to emulate that as scum? So am I doing it as an honest townie, or am I scum trying to look useful like you did in your scum game? Am I adding to the town or muddying the waters? Base your read on stuff like that rather than "he's doing a thing I did when I was scum."

[Rad]

@BBT - I looked through your stuff. I didn't find anything about Spartan that would convince me to change my vote. I already view him as scummy but there are better votes right now IMO (if not Bella, then mq). I need to catch up on his latest stuff though since I'm still reading through stuff that happened when I was sleeping last night.

It appears that no one else is really siding with me on my Bella scum read besides Spartan? That's probably cause for me to reconsider.

Scum wouldn't be this blatant, right? They wouldn't both pile on at the same time, and re use the literal same words.


Right?

Bella can you point out where we're using the same language? I haven't noticed anything like that and I'd have to re-read all of my own posts to figure it out.

[Rad]

Ok Bella. Regarding me and Spartan using a similar argument - here are 4 scenarios to think on.

1. A scum!Spartan thought what town!Rad wrote about him originally (more content in his 7 posts than in Bella's 23) in 220 was worth reusing, but with BBT's numbers vs Cheap's instead. That would be scum trying to act townie.

2. A town!Spartan thought it was a good point and genuinely noticed something similar with BBT.

3. A scum team scum!Spartan + scum!Rad does that ridiculous scenario you agree is ridiculous.

4. A scum!Rad and a town!Spartan is just a townie being convinced that my scum tell logic is good.

So what scenarios is this actually suspicious/weird?

1. suspicious
2. not suspicious
3. suspicious
4. not suspicious

So can we agree that 2 of the scenarios are suspicious and 2 are not? #3 we agree is absolutely ridiculous. If you want to run with that theory, go for it, but it's as you said, really silly, and I get the impression you don't believe it.

So we're down to #1. I'm town in that scenario. Is that the one you think is most likely? If not, it would mean you believe #2 or #4 are more likely and both of those are town!Spartan.

So am I scum or is Spartan scum Bella? I guess there's a 5th scenario:

scum!Rad and scum!Spartan just coincidentally used this same type of argument, and reusing the argument itself was absolutely meaningless.

I'll try to be active again tonight. Will be out and about with the wife for the rest of the day.

I'll UNVOTE: because no one seems to be sold on Bella scum even with my writeup on him. I'll consider voting for Spartan later when I can really sit down and read all his stuff again. Maybe do a full analysis of him later like I did with bella and vasex. Hopefully mq starts playing or gets replaced with someone who will so we don't have to waste a policy vote on a potential town.

[Rad]

@ rad, I'm starting to think I'm just not making my thoughts explicit enough for you? 325 definitely suggests I'm leaning interpretation one. I think it's a bit odd you aren't acknowledging that it is a weird occurance though: I'd notice it if someone did it to me, like I've noticed bbt sheeping both of my votes.

P-edit tbf when people town or scum read me it often just comes down to 'vibes'. I think I'm not in your face enough for some people.

I'm also leaning #1. Wanted to understand your perspective clearly though.

[Rad]

I don't think vasex is being very pro-town with his 4 pages of spam, but it also doesn't seem like a great scum move to so obviously muddy up the conversation.

I'm just going to go back 5 pages and see if I can get some new reads on Spartan and whiskey. Or if cheap responded somewhere in there, I'll check it out. Also I think I noticed a couple vasex posts I want to respond to but finding them will be frustrating, so we'll see.

[Rad]

Done looking at Whiskey. I'll spare everyone my post list summary since people seem to not like that, but I'll keep it handy if someone wants to see it.

Totally on board with a town!Whiskey now. To summarize, his play feels super organic and I have no problem following his thought processes. I think he could do more scum hunting / pressuring but he does make his reads clear and explains why he has them.

[Rad]

I held off on my Whiskey post analysis, but I think Spartan is required here.

Spoiler: Spartan Analysis

#137 - hello post, gives a townie read on vasex but not directly, justifies vasex's play with theory
#154 - More theory, but good theory. Pushes for activity. Town read on Somnus, Vasex, Cheap. Vote on me. Overall a very juicy post with a lot of openness.
#184 - He's right, it's easy for scum to call for activity, which I did. However, town can also do that, so it's a tricky read. Me trying to get some commitment to time people will be posting COULD be used as a scum gotcha in the future, so it's reasonable for him to read my move like that. He thinks I'm trying to get others to scumhunt for me but no, that wasn't my intention. However, reasonable read from him. Makes a claim that me and BBT aren't a scum team.
#189 - quick hammer scenario suggested. I'm leaning towards quick hammer not being a big issue like whiskey suggests. But maybe he's experienced it before and it's a legit town based issue for him. I have no experienced this because back in the day we did not have hammer votes, we had end of day votes.
#193 - points out that BBT's vote on me was OMGUS. maybe he's town and thinks that matters, maybe he's scum and wants to push some shade. null
#197 - good technical town comments here, doesn't mean he's town, just means he understands town. null
#260 - nothing
#266 - Pushes that we have lots of time day 1. I read that townie. Wants to see lurker input, which matches my thoughts. Explains his position on me. Pressures Cheap for some more info. Says he will analyse Bella further (DID HE???)
#267 - Thinks I'm defending him. I'm not, and I explained why. Could be town not quite understanding my move here.
#268 - Pressures BBT with a comment
#273 - More pressure on BBT, starting to ramp up that pressure. Quite a run-on-sentence that's hard to follow here, but I think I get it... ends up feeling organic, like whiskey.
#279 - I don't understand what he's saying with his list here. He votes BBT.
#282 - responding to Bella, reasonable response
#287 - This is an interesting take on BBT. Is it an enlightened townie take or a scum take that has the advantage of knowing BBT is town?
#289 - Strong response to Bella, makes some good points IMO
#294 - Attack/defense against BBT. Poses an interesting but not totally useful question. But kinda potentially useful... I dunno
#295 - The "Bella noticed something suspicious" post where he points out a similar observation that I did previously. Looking at it more contextually, it was really an add-on to #294. Not only does it mimic my earlier point, but it feels emotionally like my original point. This one is hard to read.
#296 - nothing
[ I NEED TO REREAD THE FOLLOWING, I'M GETTING TIRED AND WANT TO POST BUT ALSO WANT TO SLEEP ]
#300 - Just reinforcing his BBT scum read with a convo with Bella.
#302 - dunno
#306 - anti-BBT
#307 - anti-BBT
#312 - anti-BBT
#318 - fuck it will read later

LOL I'm going to pull a Somnus and say Spartan's play here feels like my better scum play from 8 years ago. That said, fuck it, I'm actually convinced by it and it feels legit. It feels organic, Spartan's emotions seem to be kicking in in a townie sort of timing. He's putting in some serious effort into his reads and makes them publically available.

At this point, I'm not going to be voting Spartan D1. My scum read on him is gone. He's null leaning town. I don't think his reads are great as I still have a town leaning read on BBT.

Good night.

[Rad]

Newbie 2096 | Nathan For You

Day 1

Player List

1. mq.bosco
   
   
2. Vasex
   
   
3. Cheapside
   
   
4. Somnus
   
   
5. Rad
   
   
6. whiskey delta
   
   
7. Jackal711 (SE)
   
8. ItalianoVD (SE)
   
   
9. Bellaphant (SE)

(bold indicates confirmation, asterisks indicate prods)

Spoiler: Flips

No flips yet.

Events:
Day 1 Start

A fantastic idea.

The only flaw is waiting to use your vote.

Look at this post
I think it was made for mafia PT
He suggests his partner to vote Jackal711
And look how BBT was stressed after posting that in our thread for all

Umm, I don't know how that happened. I really need to stop phone posting and do this on my laptop.

and then he has interesting conversation with Rad, though it can be just my paranoia.
p.s. dont forget that i thought they are both scums earlier, when they were voting each other with weird behaviour all over there, and weird reasons to find each other townie after that. it was right before this post

This is the post of the game if true, and there wouldn't even be a close 2nd place. However, replace "He suggests his partner to vote Jackal711" with "He suggests his partner to vote Bella" OR literally anyone in this hypothetical. The point being to just use your vote.

Even if this theory ends up being completely incorrect, this is a good find. I'm kind of going over the details of what happened right before this, but especially right after.

LOL this is actually a dogshit find. BBT made a tech error clicking the wrong thing on his phone. You'll see at end of game that's what happened XD The idea that it's a scum slip is absolutely absurd and makes me facepalm all over Vasex's post. It sort of gives me a townie read on Vasex though, that he would come up with something so ridiculous.

[Rad]

Eat me Somnus. It's bed time Check my past day. The timing is great.

I can't wait to analyze you tomorrow.

[Rad]

Yeah I'm a drunk 41 y/old. Suck it Dat timing.

[Rad]

"Eat me" was really that offensive to you eh? I thought it was a funny way to respond tbh.

Well, claiming that my timing had anything to do with the content of my post pissed me off. So you got a "suck it" In response.

Trust me when I say I'm filtering myself intensely.

[Rad]

How convenient to be able to park your vote on town due to the absolute destruction that comes from an Eat me, suck it response.

What you're saying is I'm a policy vote, even if I'm town, because you got a little mildly angry response. Protect somus's feelings at all cost.

It's a cute, if not scummy, response.

[Rad]

How convenient to be able to park your vote on town due to the absolute destruction that comes from an Eat me, suck it response.

What you're saying is I'm a policy vote, even if I'm town, because you got a little mildly angry response. Protect somus's feelings at all cost.

It's a cute, if not scummy, response.

[Rad]

Phone double post ftw

[Rad]

Town never has that solid of a read. Even my best town read gets wrecked when new info becomes available.

As scum though I always loved taking a stance and sticking to it. Confidence is convincing.

[Rad]

Bbt here looking for a reasonable argument on why I'm scum to help him understand somnus pov.

Vasex pointing out that he thinks bbt is scum.

Gee which is more townie.

[Rad]

@rad, I am conflicted. I quite liked rads catch up in real time on a first look, as it felt flowly and natural. And then I realised that hos reads didn't really massively change throughout: i'm town, Somnus is town, bbt is scum - at least these three were reads he started with. Do you think he's making the shoe fit? Compare for example his mentions of Spartan to your catch up.

Personally I hate vasex's recent posting style. However, it does give us some insight into how his reads change in a post by post basis. And you're right, they really didn't change did they. New information seems irrelevant to vasex, or at best just reinforces his initial read. Is that a scum move or an over confident town? I just don't see why a scum!vasex would bother to spam 4 pages when he was a town read from most people.

[Rad]

And you're right, they really didn't change did they. New information seems irrelevant to vasex, or at best just reinforces his initial read. 

LIE.

firstly i had cheap and you as townies, now you are a scum and he is null; i also changed some null slots to town lean (wd, bella) and solid town (spartan).

does it look that i didnt change anything?

Alright vasex. What's your latest read on Bella then if you consider what I just said a LIE?

[Rad]

We're too close to mq getting replaced for me to jump on a somnus wagon. Otherwise I'd be happily doing that with you guys right now.

I'm a bit worried about an mq cheap lurker scum team

[Rad]

What do you think about BBT wanting to eliminate me and end day 1 after I had made 7 posts?

Tbf your first 7 posts had plenty of content in them.

[Rad]

I think I still have some outstanding questions for you too, Rad.

Your question about my spartan read will have to wait until I'm at my computer because it requires effort. Right now I'm out and reading/posting on my phone. I promise I'll get to it though.

[Rad]

Vasex change your profile pic to something unique. If you're town you're actively screwing town over with your nonsense and will have no one to blame but yourself when this wagon lims you.

[Rad]

VOTE: Vassex harmful to town and needs to go. I guess that puts him at E2?

I kinda wanted to vote for somnus cause if he flips red, I get to watch vasex try to talk his way out of that absolute town read, but vassex is probably more harmful to town than a scum!somnus is

And if vasex flips red I think it's likely town!somnus rather than scum team.

[Rad]

Phone posting. Vasex not vassex

[Rad]

Sorry not E2, I think that's E1

[Rad]

Yeah my bad on the E2 part. I forgot about Bella's vote.

[Rad]

very interesting, but i have 3:00 a.m., so i go to sleep
like i said, i'll be busy at work on monday

rad is scum in this game, elim him

Your scum read on me is hilarious BTW. You admitted to not reading my longer posts and push for me to be voted anyway. You just randomly come to conclusions on people based on nothing. Or you have full knowledge because you're scum and you're just deciding who to vote for based on some strategy. Either way, awful. My bad for thinking your early play was legit before.

[Rad]

"to elim rad"

if

i flip green.

Scum slip? I'd have said "when" I flip green cause I don't have to keep that part straight in my head when spamming out posts.

Anyway, I don't even care what you flip at this point. You're destructive to town. If you flip green and anyone cares about what you wrote, and I get elimed because of it, you just killed 2 towns.

BTW this is a newbie game. I don't see how I'd actually be any good at this game given I'm a newbie. Back when I used to play, it was only newbie games then too (maybe 1 non newbie, i can't remember). My reads in particular are probably bad. I know my weaknesses, do you know yours?

[Rad]

Scum slip? I'd have said "when"

dont be a child, this thing "if/when" never works. so new shitposting, eh.

btw, you are the only one whom i wrote LIE few hours ago? ohhh this is bad for you, because u really lied about my position that i dont change anything, and i proved that you lied with ease. Easy to check our conversation there. This is a really good reason to hang you (comparing with absolutely shitty reasons you are trying to create now why are voting me). Cosider my vote is 100% on you till the end of the game, and i bet that u will be hanged.

The LIE thing was silly because I was just agreeing with Bella. I actually didn't notice that point until he made it, then i was like... huh yeah i think he's right about this actually. But you tunneled on me even when I asked you if your thoughts changed about Bella.

It is what it is.

[Rad]

when i flip green

you must be elimed next for pretending that you dont know how to count votes. or if you are just drunk newbie who dont know how to play the game, this is even better, but i leave my maybe last message to other townies "to elim rad" if

i flip green

so you failed even with when/if, trying to show smth out of the whole context, you are the weakest mafia scum i ever seen

If anything, using it both ways in one post reinforces my thought that it's hard for you to keep it straight. I actually didn't notice that the first time, or I'd have pointed it out, so that's hilarious.

Get some sleep guy.

[Rad]

Rad, can you show me the posts from Spartan that made you reconsider your read?

Also, what made you decide his emotion was coming from a town perspective and not a scum perspective?

I came up with a list of "townie posts" like you asked, but I think it's missing the point. I get a townie feel from Spartan based on his entire ISO. When read start to finish, it reads townie to me. I tried to make some notes about each one, and in those notes I point out some townie things I thought I saw, but even listing those specific posts out here doesn't really matter. It's the entire ISO that matters.

I think vibe is a stupid thing to base a hard read on, so consider this a soft town read. He does townie stuff. He pressures, he states why he has opinions, he contributes. If he's scum, he's convinced me he's not.

I dunno how to read him any better. I feel his contributions are good and helpful to town and that gives me a town read.

[Rad]

@BBT can you make your reasons for your vote on Vasex clear? I didn't see anything when I looked through your ISO for it. I feel like we have some clear reasons from Bella, Corwinoid, and myself. I think it would be good to hear your reasons.

[Rad]

Vasex is obvtown here.

He's trying to force his elim

Let's say you're right. WHY? What's his goal? What could that possibly gain town? There's no guarantee a scum is on any particular wagon. Shit if I was scum while a town!vasex's was doing all this, I'd be lurking and just waiting this out until town mislims.

[Rad]

@whiskey is Vasex obvtown here because he's too scummy to be scum? Or do you see a better reason? Is he doing townie things or scummy things?

[Rad]

/popcorn

*jeopardy theme*

f5 f5 f5

[Rad]

I think Cheap is the easy vote here, so I'm suspicious of it. I also relate to his posts really easily, especially his vote at 727.

@whiskey absolutely nailed the read on vasex's motivation, so I'm suspicious of him. It's one thing to determine it after a flip, but it's another to be that confident and correct before a flip. Also he noted that he'd be cool with hammering on policy, didn't do that, got called out on it, and then backpedaled. I dunno, confusing at the very least.

I think Corwinoid had the weakest openly stated reason for the vote. No one cared about the lie anymore. I never cared about it. Only Somnus did that I can remember and he seemed to have gotten past it.

I still don't know what BBT's reasoning was. I asked him to clarify, vasex asked him to clarify, he suggested he had already clarified. I dunno what to think about that.

I think a good start here is to reread Spartan's posts. I'll try to do that by the time I go to sleep tonight. I don't think we need to rush a vote here.

[Rad]

Anything on Somnus, Rad?

Also, what do you think Bella's reasoning for being on the Vasex wagon was?

Well, seemed like Bella had a minor scum read on Vasex, and she started the wagon. Feels more like a pressure move that turned into an elim.

I need to catch up on somnus's d2, and now your post about him. Will do that throughout today.

[Rad]

I was also scum reading Vasex. I asked you what Bella's reasoning was for voting him.

I felt Bella's initial reasoning was pretty clear in 506, so I'm not going to reiterate anything beyond that. Reads as minor scum read to me.

I think what's more important is Bella staying on the wagon when the wagon became legit. I'm still thinking about that and haven't come to any conclusion. If Bella can answer that, I'd appreciate it.

I never got that read from you, but I feel your play has been super townie (so the opposite read of how cheap and somnus are reading you). Or you're absolutely dominating as scum. Occam's razoring this one and leaning town on you regardless of the lack of clarity on your vote.

[Rad]

@rad, explain the cheap thoughts to me? Coz I had a fairly irrational but strong tr on them at the end of the day but then I looked their votes, and then their reads post.

Looking at the reasoning on the votes on vasex is probably somewhat worth it.

I like Cheap's play. I think it's townie. I don't like how he lurked into the d1 vote, but his reasoning rang so true to me in 727. And here in d2, without having to suffer through vasex spam, he's come out swinging. I like his posts. I'll read more into his actually d2 content when I can later today.

[Rad]

Thanks @BBT, those seem reasonable. TBF you do post a lot so it was hard for me to find a coherent reason. I appreciate you doing it for me

Similar reasoning to Bellas. I think it's fair.

[Rad]

I think corwin's a reasonable vote here

VOTE: Corwinoid

Comes in and places a vote on vasex based on a lie that no one actually cared about anymore. It's the second vote on vasex who doesn't really have any real elim steam, so pretty safe from suspicion and puts a town member just a little closer to a mislim. A good position to take as a scum wanting to elim a town.

In 731 he has a "solid TR on Somnus and you" - you being Cheap. He appreciates the quality of Cheap's posts.

Note here that Cheap's vote on vasex is 727, 1 hour BEFORE Corwin's 731 where he reads Cheap as Town.

In 797, after the flip, he's now got a Scum read on Cheap based on Cheap's vote, which as I noted, happened an hour before his previous Town read.

Let's also note that in 731 Corwin says "I just want Vasex gone; I think he's been completely anti-town and disruptive and it's really hard to think we're just not better off without him--I might be tunneling, but it's genuinely making it harder to read everyone else." which is essentially the same reasoning as Cheap gave in his 727 vote for Vasex.

[Rad]

So I got a chance to look through Spartan's ISO. Here's my understanding:

Steady scum read on BBT, over time leaned scum on Bella
Started with scum read on me, but I feel like that disappeared over time, opposite of Bella
Believed potential of a BBT + Bella scum team (hinted at it and then spelled it out)
Ended with a belief of a potential Cheap + mq/Corwin, or Cheap + BBT scum team.
Probably had town reads on Vasex, Somnus, and Whiskey, leaned scum on everyone else

Let's look at the wagon on him:

E-1 wagon on Spartan contained (in order according to Spartan, not going to double check this):
- Whiskey (from left over RVS before Spartan replaced)
- Cheap
- Bella
- BBT (E-1, not announced)
(Compared to Vasex wagon, there's an overlap of Cheap, Bella, and BBT. Corwin hadn't yet replaced mq during Spartan wagon)

@Somnus @Whiskey what's your take aways on the Spartan wagon vs the Vasex wagon. Anything interesting to conclude here given the people on 2 town wagons?

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

I'm not letting Corwin off the hook here, but I don't want to see d2 end without more input from somnus and whiskey.

[Rad]

Bad unvote.

Need pressure.

What are we trying to pressure out of him, exactly?

I fully expect him to respond to my 857 with or without an E-1 sitting on him. I don't think a town!Corwin avoids responding here.

The guy has already claimed VLA, so he could lurk the next 24 hours and actually be a legit sick town.

Tech question for whoever can answer - does town get notified if they were roleblocked by a mafia roleblocker, even if they were not a PR that could be blocked (i.e. a VT)?

[Rad]

I fully expect him to respond to my 857 with or without an E-1 sitting on him. I don't think a town!Corwin avoids responding here.

I didn't spell out this idea out as much as I should have.

I don't think a town!Corwin avoids responding here because his reasoning would be pure and easy to explain. A scum!Corwin has to respond because it's a scum slip and he fucked up. E-1 pressure doesn't change either of these facts.

A scum!Corwin could avoid responding though and guarantee my vote on him.

[Rad]

Bad unvote.

Need pressure.

What are we trying to pressure out of him, exactly?

I fully expect him to respond to my 857 with or without an E-1 sitting on him. I don't think a town!Corwin avoids responding here.

The guy has already claimed VLA, so he could lurk the next 24 hours and actually be a legit sick town.

Tech question for whoever can answer - does town get notified if they were roleblocked by a mafia roleblocker, even if they were not a PR that could be blocked (i.e. a VT)

?

A VT would not be notified. A town investigative would be given a "no result" PM or whatever by the moderator.

OK thanks. I was going down a thread of how town could determine the setup, but if a VT doesn't get notified, it's no use.

Scum knows the setup right now. If it's a doc setup, scum probably wants to pressure that out in a wagon. If it's not a doc setup, scum has no reason to pressure out a PR because they know there isn't one. Just a thought.

[Rad]

I agree that in hindsight, Spartan NK makes sense. A town!BBT is probably a smart NK out of fear, but so is a town!Spartan (you're both SE's), and Spartan was widely more town read than BBT. Plus a town!BBT not dying makes him even more suspicious. I dunno, Spartan feels like the right move regardless of BBT's alignment. In the scenario where town!BBT is NK'd and town!Spartan survives, I don't think anyone looks at him and says "hmmm why aren't you dead sir??" Instead we'd have a town!Spartan making townie posts and being generally town read. A town!BBT is gimped in d2 because most people read him scum.

I agree with not looking at vasex vca too deeply. On its own, there's at least 1 town who voted him because he was destructive to town (between me, cheap, and corwin who all gave similar reasoning, can't all be scum). At least 2 if we include Bella (though I don't recall her saying this prior to the flip... not saying she didn't, but I don't remember her saying it... will have to check later).

However I think the similarities with the Spartan and Vasex wagons is interesting. As is the current corwin wagon.

[Rad]

I think Cheap is the easy vote here, so I'm suspicious of it. I also relate to his posts really easily, especially his vote at 727.

Hmm, this has pinged me.

Rad, talk to me about Cheap being the 'easy vote'

Vasex blasted him before death, so if he's town!Cheap scum are going to take advantage of that. He was lurky all of D1, again a town!Cheap lurking is an easy target. His vote was an emotional policy vote, easy to jump on. Coming into D2 I assumed Cheap was going to be an early target, and he was, which gave me pause on him being scum.

FWIW, I also thought Cheap was going to vote you BBT, and that happened. I made this note during night:

"Cheapside wants to lurk, justified his lurking from first post, and is lurking. I think he'll vote BBT in d2."

I think his D1 play was suspicious, and it makes a town!Cheap an easy target. It should be easy for a scum to either let town devour a town!Cheap, or give a little push on him to get town really going. I think that's what we probably saw in a scum!Corwin here.

A scum!Cheap decides to lurk until placing the most suspicious vote on vasex with an appeal to emotion as reasoning. In day 2 he has to spring to action to get suspicion off him.

A town!Cheap is legit upset with how cluttered day 1 has become and can't imagine continuing with the vasex slot. With that slot gone and some legit info on the table, he opens up and participates in a similar (but less lurky) manner as day 1.

*shrug* looking forward to more content from Cheap.

[Rad]

Cheap was an easy target? Has Cheap come under any real pressure today, I'd say no. So the easy target thing isn't adding up. A lot of people, myself included, are talking about how bad Cheap's vote was etc. But nobody is actually doing anything about it.

I said VCA would be difficult Whiskey, I said nothing about it being useless. The lack of VCs always makes VCA difficult as it's much more effort to track votes.

Sorry what? Sure he doesn't have a huge wagon on him, but surely you don't believe he hasn't been under pressure...

785 - Day 2 begins
789 - Bella suspecting cheap
791 - I read this as BBT considering cheap's vote scummy
795 - Bella voting cheap
797 - Corwin pushing somnus/cheap
801 - Corwin confirming cheap sus, even with a vote on somnus that BBT requested
805 - Corwin confirming cheap sus
810 - BBT calling out cheap for being inconsistent
816 - BBT pushing cheap
818 - Bella calling out cheap on read flipping not feeling genuine
831 - Bella more pressure on cheap
835 - Me pointing out that I believe cheap is the easy vote here, based on the above

3/5 of vasex's wagon are pointing at cheap. This feels like a great move for any scum wanting to get pressure off them for their own vote on a town flip. It's also a reasonable read on cheap, don't get me wrong, you can't all be scum, and I doubt more than 1 are, but I think a town!cheap absolutely gets this kind of reaction from that town flip.

[Rad]

Comes in and places a vote on vasex based on a lie that no one actually cared about anymore

If nobody cared about it, why did you jump on the wagon after I made that argument?

I never really cared about that lie. It was super obvious the way it played out and I felt like once somnus bit, it was actually helpful to get conversation going.

I did care about him spamming everything to hell, slinging shit across everyone with no coherent thoughts, obsessive defense of mq and somnus, and a little bit of OMGUS GTFO of my game. Plus I was feeling pretty down on my reads with no one liking my read on Bella so was settling into the stance that maybe I suck at town reads. So a scum flip on vasex would have been fucking awesome all around, and a town flip on him is at least a relief in that the game can now normalize.

I didn't have a scum read on you until d2 with what I consider a possible scum slip on cheap. You were null. You had just joined, replacing a lurker who had minimal input. I actually kinda liked that the mq replacement came in and voted for vasex lol. I was waiting for mq to be replaced and here you were actually playing the game immediately and making a move. Felt awesome. I almost posted how awesome that was.

[Rad]

Way too many people not voting.

Yucky.

Pull a Spartan and explain some theory here for me? What's wrong with not voting right now?

We got conversations going. Corwin has replied with reasons that everyone can judge. Somnus promised to return with some new input.

I'm pretty happy with this activity so far but maybe I'm a clueless newbie. Voting is for scum elim and pressure right? Who needs additional pressure on them right now? Or am I misunderstanding how you view the use of voting?

[Rad]

Thanks for explaining BBT.

I think we have plenty of time right now. If d2 dragged on another 72 hours, sure, makes sense that it's best if everyone is taking a stance with their vote so we don't hurry ourselves into a mislim based on time running out.

I think an E-1 wagon with intention to hammer is only good right now for a scum team looking to out a doc. I want to give Somnus some time to get his input out there before I commit to another vote. Whiskey also became more active last weekend and here we are entering the weekend again. Cheap is posting more. Everyone is active right now. This is good for town and rushing a lim is not.

[Rad]

Let me sum it up for you BBT. It was a good read but it's easy to summarize too:

BBT + Bella is the scum team. Somnus wants who he considers town to flip him right now, and when he flips green, we go after you and Bella the next 2 days without exception.

So it's a town!Somnus gambit play and we're invited to take part and see if his read is correct.

Or it's a scum!Somnus gambit play that thinks this will give us a town read on him. The scum!Somnus move is super risky because suddenly town believes in Somnus and flips BBT or Bella, who are not likely scum alongside scum!Somnus. Or we buy into his plan and flip him and he's scum. Whoops!

Personally I think there's 1 scum between BBT and Bella and 1 in Somnus's town list. With this post, Somnus is now a town read to me. That option just seems more likely. I'm curious now, particularly, in Whiskey's thoughts on Somnus's post.

[Rad]

I did bbt. Spartan did believe you and Bella were scum team. I actually did that research that somnus is referring to. He didn't end the game saying that you two were the scum team, but I think he held that belief earlier in the game.

[Rad]

A bbt Bella scum team has dominated town so hard that I refuse to believe in it.

[Rad]

I'm on my phone. Go read Spartans early game iso. I dunno why you wouldn't have already done that anyway. Also why not call me out when I made that claim in 864?

[Rad]

The other thing I don't get is: why does scum Bella make her doubts about scum!bbt so clear? I know distancing is a thing but like....you've read bbt. Do you not think that, if we're both scum, we don't just agree to town read the fuck out if each other? Plus, I'd never want us this closely linked by vca.

WIFOM

Just saying. Scum can play however they want. There's nothing forcing a scum bella bbt team to town read each other openly and no reason for us to believe that's how a scum!Bella would necessarily play here.

....you know, I've been totally gaslit. 'this is what you get when you are on every e-1 wagon': I've just checked my iso and I was on 2. Which may be 'every' , but is also....2. one of which went through foe reasons discussed ad naseum already. I make four vores yesterday: RVs, which I then keep on when I find sonmu scummy and move off when they talk to me, a shitty pressure vote on msq, Spartan, and vasex.

Plus, 282-293 (Ish) are all discussions of the fact that I (and possibly bbt) miscounted the votes on Spartan, as there was still an RVs vote for his replacement.

@somnus: was I lying when I said I had miscounted? In your opinion. Was bbt?

That's not gaslighting, that's stating the truth. Truth can be deceptive though, sure. Is that what you're saying? That he's being deceptive with his claim here? That would be pretty scummy huh. Or is it just an observation?

Do you read Somnus as town or scum here?

Are you interested in following through with somnus's plan to lim him to see if he flips green? Is this scum with a master plan of taking you and bbt out or town with a big, confident read?

If he's a town read for you, why are you claiming he's gaslighting you? Why would town gaslight?

Must be a scum read.

Wanna vote him out?

[Rad]

941 is incredibly weak reasoning.

I'm not voting bbt because Corwin thinks they have interacted strangely. Even if they have, that could still be 1 scum 1 town or even just 2 town that you have a bad read on. I disagree that it feels manufactured. Chit chat back and forth is not scummy or townie, it's null until a red flip that you can use to start trying to find a scum partner.

I'm not voting until I see whiskey and cheap respond here. I'm leaning scum on Bella and Corwin, though that scum team doesn't seem likely, so maybe just one of them.

This is some high effort, high risk play by somnus for it to be Corwin somnus, so I doubt it. His frustration with this game feels legit and that's a townie frustration. Maybe.

[Rad]

Effort =/= town

Why is it high risk? Somnus has literally tried to derail a Corwin wagon by shifting attention onto me.

Why is it legit town frustration and not legit scum frustration?

It's high risk because most scenarios set up somnus with us killing him. There's 1 where we kill you instead. That feels overly risky to me. And for what? To save Corwin, really? That's a stretch.

It just feels town to me. "Why isn't anyone listening to meee!?" Is such a newbie town reaction and that's the feeling in getting from him. He was getting frustrated with things earlier and it culminated in his huge gambit. If it's scum it's incredibly try hard and risky.

[Rad]

I think back to D2 start where I am showing signs of going after Cheap/Corwin to which I received praise and TRs from BBT/Bella.

Town-binned.

Has anyone asked what reads these two actually have on each other? It’s the only question that really matters tbh.

I was about to ask bbt his thoughts on Bella just a few min ago but I backed off. Not sure why I did. I think I really don't want bbt to be scum and I don't think he'll have a great read on Bella which will push me more to him being scum...

So what about Bella??? Should we lim Bella???

[Rad]

Rad, the parts where Somnus talks about you being Town-binned and on counted on for mis-lim votes coild be happening right now. You’re fighting for them because you’re unwilling to set aside your own beliefs. Why can’t they be scum? Just because you don’t think so? There really is a mound of evidence if you look. I’m going to continue looking back and will probably find more things that’ll make me go hmmmmm

Yeah... let me chew on this for a bit..

[Rad]

Waiting for cheap's input. Currently I'm more interested in a Bella or Corwin wagon but a Corwin flip without cheap's input to somnus post is bad.

[Rad]

Fair enough. If cheap wants to come vote Bella with me I'm down.

VOTE: corwin

[Rad]

Also that is e-1 on Corwin

[Rad]

As whiskey put it

To anyone dumb enough to hammer this without claiming intent and giving time, so help you God.

[Rad]

Why would you be up for voting your town read?

[Rad]

Whiskey, somnus, you have scum read on Bella too? How about it? Red flip Bella and we can start talking about scum team bbt potential.

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Bella

[Rad]

scum!Rad is not what I was getting at, I just want to know why he's thinking Bella

now

instead of BBT.

I read Bella scum and bbt town.

I'm sorry everyone has such a strong scum read on him while i don't. My read is town. If he's scum sure, he's totally townbinning me. I'm his little play toy. You guys have enough to flip him if cheap wants to. If he flips red im sure I will be under fire next but it is what it is. Not going to sit here and vote my town read that I feel has contributed well to the game.

I think scum is in Bella Corwin.

Tonight I'm going to read through all of bbt iso so I can refresh my view of him. I'll do that for Bella too actually. They have given plenty of content and are very difficult for me to understand why I read them how I do so I will sit down and really take a look at that.

I like whiskey's questions about bbt's behavior and plan on considering them as I read through his iso later.

[Rad]

Wooo cheap post, awesome. I read it, but I need more time tomorrow to think about it.

Tonight, I went through BBT. I didn't get a chance to read up on Bella yet. Instead, I read through BBT's ISO here and (gasp) I went through a few of his previous games. I even paused Twitch so I could really focus. They were from 2018. Interestingly, there's a ton of similarity.

This is how BBT posts. Town or scum, this is his style. Ignore the style aspect.
The types of questions he gave in his town games matched the types of questions he gave in his scum games. He does the same shit. "Why do you think this?" "Explain this for me" etc. He votes for someone immediately and tries to get stuff rolling. His meta difference here is hard to discern.

So here's some stuff I noticed about his scum play:

A scum BBT has no problems bussing his partner
A scum BBT likes to praise town for being town
A scum BBT has no issue putting in effort

I come out of this with a null read on BBT.

So where do I go from here?

I think I probably follow whiskey into battle. Whatever the fuck you want to do Whiskey, double your vote. And if you're currently not sure, cool, it's not on you, we'll figure it out.

Tomorrow I'll read Cheap's post again so I can think about it clearly. I'll catch up on whatever happened while I was asleep. And I'll try to read through Bella's ISO.

UNVOTE:

Bella deserves a read through.

[Rad]

To clarify, I don't mean to hedge and offload my responsibility to whiskey. I plan to continue to play as fully as I have been. I'll make my own reads and moves without relying on whiskey. But if whiskey comes in and tells me to vote bbt with him, I'm going to vote bbt and not over think it. And if he does that and bbt flips green, I'm not going to point my finger at whiskey for it. If that happened, I would park my vote on somnus without hesitation.

I'll start catching up on the latest stuff now. Looks juicy.

[Rad]

My head hit the pillow and I realized something: the lynchpin of my townlocking Somnus today is that the town gambit is so obviously noob town there's just no way it wasn't obvtown. But this is the guy with "red role fatigue", and enough scum experience now that yeah, I could absolutely see him doing something this audacious thinking second or third round newbies would have that exact read of it if they've seen/done it before, or not caring if he died to get out of the game.

I still haven't read your notes, but now I just want to see where this goes.

VOTE: Somnus

This is kinda how I've been trying to reconcile somnus's play as well. Is he angry town and that was a town gambit or is he angry scum and he's just done with this shit.

Scum!somnus flips town!bbt is a frustrated scum sacrificing himself to remove his team's greatest threat. He doesn't want to play this game anymore but doesn't want to just throw it either.

Also I didn't get townie vibes from him trying to bully me into following his plan.

Never have I had a plan I believed this hard in as town. As scum though, sure, I can see this being a reasonable move. Confidence is key to pushing an agenda. I have no scum partner reads right now for a red flip somnus so at the very least, a scum!somnus has properly distanced himself from everyone.

[Rad]

I'd like to see a somnus flip. If he flips green, sure, I'll follow his plan. If he flips red (which I expect him to) we can disregard his plans and I have a really fun scum-team theory to follow up on there.

VOTE: Somnus

E-1

[Rad]

For someone who was supposedly so butt hurt for me telling them to Eat me and Suck it, to the point that you wanted to policy elim me, you sure are comfortable disparaging town as offensively as you feel like. And in a newbie game.

Someone hammer this guy.

[Rad]

Still catching up, but if someone does hammer, I'd be HIGHLY impressed by a red flip after a post with that tone. If scum!Somnus tricked me that well, I wouldn't even be mad to be the likely next elim.

Some things we should consider:

Effort =/= Townie
Emotion =/= Townie

To use Somnus's own logic against him, back when I was playing in 2014, I used effort and emotion as scum to win over town. People would read it as upset town and it was very simple to do. I was quite successful with this approach, as far as I can remember.

The big question I think is can you relate to his emotion here? Like, I could relate to your emotion on the vasex vote. I was literally feeling the same thing. Offended that this guy was screaming that I was scum and wasn't bothering to read the posts I took effort to make. It pissed me off and I wanted him to be scum for it.

I can't relate to somnus's emotion here. He's just crying about town being bad. Does he even know how hard it is to play town? To make reads? Scum play is difficult in a completely different way, but as soon as you've played town and everyone's a potential scum, it's just wildly difficult.

I can see a vet town being upset at other vet town, but a first time newbie town should realize how fucking difficult this game is as town.

[Rad]

Fucking nailed it Bella

[Rad]

somnus made it clear he's done. Feel free to just hammer him, unless you want to wait for whiskey's and cheap's input.

[Rad]

If whiskey isn't on board with somnus and wants to hit bbt instead, i'll give him a read I'm saving for d3 and see if it changes his mind. If it doesn't, i'll go with his decision like I said I would.

I think cheap's read here is fair and townie.

[Rad]

Fuck it, here's my write up for whiskey. It's too fun not to share in case I get wifom NK'd.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we are looking at scum theater, staring BBT and Somnus. *applause*

This explains why both are so scummy and why many are having a hard time reconciling which one is scummier.

It explains why BBT treats me like his little town pet and Somnus treats me like his little scum pet. "Bad town, stay in line or I'll call you scum again!"

Now I think we need to flip Somnus first. My reasoning:

scum!Somnus clears up all the gambit play nonsense. We can talk about scum!BBT then. If it's a town!BBT, and scum is smart, they'll NK him anyway. And if town!BBT survives through the night, we've got fucking town!BBT on our side. Most likely here is town!whiskey is NK'd and I'll probably just park my vote on BBT. Maybe scum!BBT kills me for a wifom play, and he's gotta deal with whiskey and Bella, both of whom he appears to respect greatly (or at least respects Bella, and I respect town!whiskey).

scum!BBT flip first continues the Somnus gambit play nonsense and puts me and Bella on the chopping block guaranteed. town!Somnus is a complete newbie who has already mentally checked out of this game. scum!Somnus is an extremely difficult push after a red BBT flip because it looks like a hero town play ("See told you so! Me and vasex and spartan knew it!" he'll say)

town!Somnus flip is fine. Maybe his read is FIRE. We follow his town read and flip BBT. Probably a scum!BBT here. Then we flip Bella. Maybe Bella was scum and we win. Otherwise you'll clearly flip me next because of scum BBT proximity and I guess town loses.

town!BBT flip is devestating. You gotta push Somnus then, who already hates town, so town!Somnus fucked up and will blame everyone, and scum!Somnus will just redirect and AtE as if he's town, which appears to be working in convincing at least Cheap (and tbh, myself when I first read it).

Let's not forget here: if you buy into Somnus's gambit, one of his plans was to lim Somnus first, followed by BBT and Bella (or me second if you want). This is technically following his plan, I just think he'll flip red here.

[Rad]

1 quick further note. I thought his gambit play as scum!Somnus was super risky before because he offers up a play that lets us lim him and see that he's scum. I think it's far less risky as a BBT Somnus scum team because supposedly we'd all look at that and say "well fuck somnus, clearly BBT is town".

[Rad]

I'm just confused at what you hope to gain here Corwin. You're voting what most people consider an obvtown. Maybe I'm scum playing a good game but you haven't given any reason why I might be scum besides wd townlocking me? Huh? Ok so are you saying it's wd rad scum team? Or do you think just putting a vote on me is good pressure?

[Rad]

OK I hear you man. But you're the only one voting anyone without a reason that they're scum. I have you reasons for my somnus scum read. Do you like them? Do you dislike them? I literally think somnus is scum based on reasons and even openly thought through some scenarios where I'm wrong. Can you tell everyone some reasons for one of your scum reads besides " this guy hasn't gotten any pressure today so maybe he's scum". I'm currently reading you as town because reasons in my last post so it would be great if you scum hunted and had opinions we can all analyze instead of Rando vote me wd or cheap with no strong explanation of your view.

[Rad]

By last post, I mean my somnus bbt post

[Rad]

Rad and Whisky haven't been under pressure today. Not much I can find that's alignment indicative.

I wandered into cheap's iso and this pinged me.

I get this take for whiskey. He's kinda lurker and swoops in and out randomly and everyone has a town read on him.

But for me? Excuse me, what? I haven't given you enough content to make a read on me? Are you kidding?

What's with this claim that I haven't been under pressure? What more do you want to see? People to think I'm scum? How about you apply some pressure if you believe that's what it will take to read me properly, or are you content to just sit there and complain that no one else is doing it?

[Rad]

Whiskey afk for 40 hours.

Come back whiskey

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

Yup. Let me think about this more. Since posting my Somnus/BBT case I've been looking harder at the potential of a scum!Cheap.

I still have a scum read on Somnus regardless. But let me think this through.

[Rad]

Pick one bbt. You're still on somnus, yeah?

[Rad]

Lol fair, I believe it

[Rad]

I'm stuck on my somnus read. Help me clear it up. Would you expect a first time newbie town to disparage town like he's been doing? I don't find it townie for one, but for first time newbie town I find it really hard to believe. He's sensitive enough to be offended by my mild outburst but doesn't think twice to trash town in his first town game? Doesn't feel right. Feels fabricated and I did it in my old scum games. I think Bella had this same read as me here.

This is where I'm getting my somnus read from. The bbt pairing was icing that helped me make sense of lots of things, but somnus is scum outside any bbt read.

Glance over somnus again with that in mind and tell me what you think.

I'm looking at cheap tonight but I'm also watching the game with family so won't have my read till later.

[Rad]

What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I just can't read cheap. He says a lot, gives a lot of reads, but I don't get a whole lot from it. I don't feel he progresses any threads or creates any interesting new ones. I clicked with his emotion from the vasex wagon but other than that, I dunno, null read. I think the way I described that should be a scum read but I'm not confident in that conclusion.

He's like the opposite of bbt. I feel like bbt does all the stuff that cheap is not doing. Stirs things up, constant pressure, not afraid to jump on wagons or create new one.

Scum!bbt has sold me on the illusion of town effort. Scum!cheap is making me wonder if he's town. Town!bbt feels like town that has a more aggressive and angering style, town!cheap would be a great confirmed town iso.

I see scum in somnus. I see scum in Corwin. I'm up for whatever you are whiskey. I think taking bbt out here is problematic for bbt somnus scum team, and losing town!bbt, but if I'm the only one who thinks that's possible, probably not worth worrying about.

[Rad]

Oh HAY corwin, I see you posted. Here's my read on you. I'll look at your latest post next.

Corwin:

---------- DAY 1

Bad read on vasex. I thought it was bad when somnus made it and bad when corwin made it. Uninteresting lie is clearly not a scum tell and I didn't think it was before the flip. Lean scum, like I did with Somnus. Could be town who reads differently than me.

Somnus obvtown read

Argues with vasex about the bs vasex did with the avatar. He's on the right side but... [NULL]

vasex FLIP

---------- DAY 2

Pushes somnus a little, questioning whether he had a PR read on vasex. Does not follow up. [NULL]

Somnus/Cheap scum read. Wants to know why somnus is tunneling BBT (does he follow up?). Bad read on cheap because he had the same read. Pushes more suspicion on somnus based on stuff me and whiskey said. reasonable, [LEAN TOWN]

Votes somnus, claims bbt is less scummy than somnus and cheap, [NULL]

VLA here, probably true, [NULL]

Responds to my case on him. I still don't like his response to the strange read change on cheap but upon rereading this, I get the legit feeling that he's overwhelmed by a combo of VLA and having to catch up. previously scum, let's say [NULL]

Questioning me bbt and cheap about why we jumped on the vasex wagon if no one cared about his vasex lie case. Previously I read this scum, maybe it's town!corwin overwhelmed, [NULL]

907 is the open explanation that reasonably explains his previous posts

917 suggests he was seeing red. I can see cheap seeing red. I saw red. Why would he? He was brand new to the game. Hard to empathize here. [SCUM]

Approves of somnus's gambit reads on bbt/bella. Explores this a bit. Tries to get more out of my on Cheap. Votes BBT and requests me and whiskey to join. [TOWN]

Clarifies null read on bella, but claims bella hasn't been under pressure. That's true, only I gave her any pressure, no one else seemed to care. [NULL]

Pushes for me to give a read on why Bella over BBT. [TOWN]

1015 Argues with BBT. Emotional. Thinks I should be pressured due to offloading my responsibility and is angry about it. Claims somnus gambit is shit. Pushes BBT to do more. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

1024 points out that BBT is sticking to his meta, that I also noticed, where he plays the same way in both scum and town. Good observation. does corwin recognize that if he's scum? maybe but not likely. [TOWN]

Confirms somnus isn't a top scum read.

1041 switches somnus read to scum based on realizing that maybe somnus isn't obvtown, but rather, his whole act was a scum play. This was actually one of the posts that helped trigger my thoughts on somnus. [TOWN]

Awful push on me incoming. I don't see what it could possibly accomplish. Maybe he had an idea that something interesting would happen. It clearly wasn't a push on me but some sort of trap. [NULL, MAYBE TOWN]

Places vote on somnus again. Upon revisiting his ISO, this is a natural move. [TOWN]

Nevermind corwin isn't a scum read.

[Rad]

Yeah corwin that's what I was referring to there. You did mention it before and I believe it. I'm the same. I don't think I would be up for faking that sort of thing. Anyway, [NULL] but good on you sir

[Rad]

For all of his finger pointing, his complete lack of any real action and unwillingness to make a vote or be on a potential wagon, whiskey is really getting on my nerves. At first I was just really fucking annoyed by it, but going back through his iso and looking at context the only votes he's made all game were a Jackal (BBT) RVS, which he quickly walked back at 291 from E-1, then he trained BBT onto Somnus, which had no real risk. Day 2 he voted BBT to E-1 but warned everyone off hammering, meaning there was no real intent or pressure on it, and then unvoted when we're looking at eliminating one of his top scum reads. He comes back now, points fingers at almost the entire game and then walks off again asking the guy who wants to blindly follow him what he should do

without making another vote

.

Towns biggest tool outside of PRs is voting, but instead of doing that he's been sowing little seeds of everyone is scum and tucking his vote away in safe places or hiding from being involved in anything the

entire game

.

VOTE: Whiskey

Town read.

Whiskey IS suspicious. But everyone reads him town, and his reads so far are fire, so I will sheep him and not care if he's playing me.

[Rad]

I tried to think of something specific I could ask corwin, but I could not. It's my bed time so I'm pretty out of it already. Wanted to get my other post out before bed.

I hope you're getting past your VLA because when you're responding, I feel like you have good input, and whether you're scum or town I want to see more of it. The stuff that stuck out to me about you in memory was all scummy so I had that impression until I revisited your ISO. I want a town!corwin doing what you've been doing and I want a scum!corwin to keep it up so we can read you better and you're not just a coinflip

[Rad]

I'm not asleep yet. Phone lurking. You wanna vote cheap i'll drop in on it right now with you. I think bbt will join that too.

[Rad]

Right now I'm...

Town
Whiskey
Corwin
Bella

Null
Bbt
Cheap

Scum
Somnus

I'm down for a whiskey read clarifying my null cheap

[Rad]

Somnus/Cheap isn’t something I have considered much. It would be funny considering that Cheap mentions Somnus being well coached in his read.

My only team read right now is bbt somnus. If cheap flips red we get to figure it out properly. Not necessarily a Somnus team as everything changes with a red flip.

[Rad]

K I should sleep. If there's a flip while I'm asleep, everyone can consider me on whatever wagon whiskey votes here

[Rad]

VOTE: cheap

Zzz

[Rad]

Cheap on E-1. I expect a bbt hammer. Final reads from cheap would be lovely.

[Rad]

To be clear, scum!rad has absolutely no problem bussing his partner. So a bbt rad team where I'm too afraid to really push bbt and bbt won't push me just isn't a thing. I can show you a game offsite where I basically do that the entire game. If I'm allowed to link off site.

Town!somnus giving up mid game is a bummer. Maybe mafia isn't the game for you? It's just a game man. Town is hard and even other town people are going to read you scum even though you think other people are more scum. That's how it goes without perfect information and no absolute scum tells. Town!somnus has different reads than town!rad does and that's pretty natural and not something to be upset over. It's frustrating though, I get it.

Scum!somnus continuing to be checked out fits the narrative I'm reading though. Ez pass to not have to interact beyond a big post here and there. I was excited that you set us up to interact a lot at night and that just hasn't been a thing.

[Rad]

Well, that nk was guaranteed unless whiskey was scum or someone wanted to make a wifom play. Maybe scum!bbt kills town!Bella out of respect but then me and whiskey vote him today for sure. Maybe scum!bbt kills me as wifom play. But here we are with this most obvious nk so I won't bother thinking about it too deeply.

I think 1 misplaced vote on a town here opens up the potential for a double scum vote hammer yeah? For lack of a better term... I dunno if that's what it would be called.

I dunno how to play this out but I imagine I put my vote on bbt and see if the game ends.

In my old games, day would end on a timer so I never had to deal with this sort of scenario.

I can't avoid voting for bbt here. Every single town flip as thought he was scum.

VOTE: bbt

[Rad]

Yeah Bella. Here's my thoughts.

If BBT is town, the 2 scum should be waiting until both are online and they should hammer him at the same time. Town loses, and that's a town loss that we deserve because everyone has thought BBT was scum.

Or I'm scum bussing my partner right now. Strange move. scum!Rad would rather wait and do the double hammer thing later after we get a vote on someone who isn't my partner. That's town's call to read though, if scum!Rad is making that play.

Or scum!Rad is sitting on town right now trying to convince people that a BBT lim is inevitable. Again, not sure why I scum!Rad would do this instead of hanging back and waiting for a single vote a town places on another town. Certainly somnus and corwin are going to lean BBT here so scum!Rad should just wait for whichever of those 2 aren't his partner to vote BBT and finish it with the hammer play.

Now my read on you with this move, Bella. It's either scum team Bella BBT and you don't want to push the bus yet. Or you're town. scum!Bella + non-BBT partner, you should have waited back and coordinated your hammer attack, and I think scum!Bella is smart enough to realize that.

My vote will not drop off BBT today unless some pairing of somnus + bella + corwin wants to lim someone else. A scum pairing within those 3 people should go ahead and win the game right now by voting BBT.

[Rad]

I think scum!Bella is smart enough to realize that.

Derrr you literally just mentioned this in your last post. Sorry. I was too busy spelling out my thoughts on the scenarios to remember that you just said that. So yeah. It's Bella + BBT or straight town Bella. Scum!Bella + non-BBT partner is just sitting here spelling out what she's about to do to mess with me lol. That would not be appreciated.

[Rad]

Hey rad, I thought you found me fairly scummy still?

In my heart bbt Is town, because we've shared a lot of thought processes. I'm a bit paranoid, especially after Luke, and I will reread rad/bbt tomorrow to sense check

I don't think I got a response to this?

My early town read on you was a vibe read. My re-read on you was a post by post analysis to figure out how townie/scummy you were. I forced myself to read it from a "what if Bella is scum" angle which probably influenced my thought process there. No one agreed with my case on you, which suggests that my ability to discern townie from scummy is probably weak. You were, for the most part, the most town read person besides whiskey during the first couple days. I'm trying to lean on the majority here as I'm not confident in my reads. I've always had the town vibe from you though. If we're in the final 3, I'll go read your scum games and see if I can spot a legit difference.

[Rad]

So we've gotten everyone but somnus to show up.

Bella + Corwin should have already won this game, so we can rule that out.

If somnus comes in and says hello, we can then rule out somnus + bella and somnus + corwin.

That will confirm BBT scum with the only possibility outside that being scum!Rad + anyone and my scum team decided that the hammer play wasn't worth trying for.

Am I wrong in this logic?

[Rad]

Scum!somnus continuing to be checked out fits the narrative I'm reading though. Ez pass to not have to interact beyond a big post here and there.

I was excited that you set us up to interact a lot at night and that just hasn't been a thing.

Is this a massive scum slip or did I miss some context? Rad's vote is only safe if he's 100% sure it won't be quick hammered.

43 is the context

[Rad]

Scum!somnus continuing to be checked out fits the narrative I'm reading though. Ez pass to not have to interact beyond a big post here and there.

I was excited that you set us up to interact a lot at night and that just hasn't been a thing.

Is this a massive scum slip or did I miss some context? Rad's vote is only safe if he's 100% sure it won't be quick hammered.

My vote on BBT is safe because if BBT is town, town loses and we deserved to lose. My vote on anyone else would be unsafe because no one is more scum read than BBT from our confirmed dead town.

[Rad]

You're willing to risk the game that it's not Somnus/Bella?

P-edit: I feel like throwing a game away 'because we deserved to lose' is a little questionable.

Yes that's right. Me placing my vote on BBT is me saying that town fucked up if he's not scum. I trust our dead town's reads more than my own. A somnus/bella somnus/corwin scum team just wins the game right now. Believe what you will, but a scum!Rad's best move is to sit back and be openly unsure and wait for the right hammer moment.

[Rad]

Bella, please come say something at least, even if you don't vote, because that helps advance the scum team logic here.

Clearly we may be waiting a while for somnus to input.

[Rad]

Bella saying anything here clears Rad + Bella team, cause Rad + Bella team wins with a Bella vote.

Bella + Corwin already cleared.

Rad + Corwin not yet cleared.

[Rad]

Rad + Bella Cleared
Bella + Corwin Cleared.
Bella town CONFIRMED

UNVOTE:

Let me think.

[Rad]

No sorry bella town not confirmed. Would have to be Bella BBT scum team though.

[Rad]

I think my vote should stay on BBT. I don't think it's corwin somnus scum team. scum!Corwin should have held off until scum!somnus showed up online to just hammer instead of distracting me with his vote + advancing the logic.

VOTE: BBT

E-1 again

[Rad]

Does that thought at least semi-clear corwin/somnus for you too Bella?

[Rad]

Yeah yeah, not clearing anyone individually with that thought, but clearing the corwin/somnus scum team with the idea that corwin really should have waited until somnus showed up for them to hammer it. I mean, i guess scum!corwin could plant his vote here impatiently and hope scum!somnus shows up or hopes that town!Bella does it for them, but that seems like a bad idea to me.

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

fine, at least so I can think about it with Bella.

[Rad]

They're not infallible, but they are confirmed town, so I take their opinions seriously. I think any of them put in my shoes right now votes for you BBT.

[Rad]

A town!BBT here has a massive advantage. Bella is confirmed town to him. The only teams he has to think about are: Rad/Corwin, Rad/Somnus, Corwin/Somnus

[Rad]

I've explained what the plan was. I'll explain again if you need me to but it'll have to wait 15-25 minutes. I'll be back around then.

[Rad]

sorry 30 min and i will be back

[Rad]

OK sorry, got pulled into some things.

So, yeah, this was a gamble move. I'm town, so if you wanna think I deserve to lose for it, fine man. For me, it was a calculated gamble. Every dead town had a scum read on you. Maybe Spartan's dropped a bit by end of d1, but everyone else, strong scum read. Whiskey might even have pushed you d2 if I was less openly reluctant. I feel you're the only vote I can make at this stage and feel like I've at least voted with my town. If town!BBT died here because of my play, dead town was wrong about you and it's my fault for setting you up. I was nervous as fuck doing it too, but in the end, I think considering everyone's scum read on you, it was a reasonable play.

Maybe somnus was a bit late and corwin/somnus could have just won there. I doubt it though. I think you're probably scum, and now we have some good reads from the play.

YOLO my ass if you want BBT, if scum!somnus is paying attention to town!BBT voting for town!Rad, we lose. And for what? Because you didn't like my play? How was it even scummy? Risky sure, but scummy? Dude if I was scum this game and got this far, I would have sat back, relaxed, and just waited for that sweet hammer vote to present itself. Nope, I'm town, and we haven't flipped a scum yet, so we're desperate here. You're the most likely red flip on the board right now.

If you're town!BBT and somnus missed his shot, that means it's corwin/somnus. I know you don't have me confirmed town, so you have to consider me too, but town!BBT has Bella 100% confirmed thanks to my play, so get to convincing us that it's not you that we should flip. You may be rusty, but I'm straight town newbie. Most of my old games were scum in newbie games, and I haven't played in 8 years. All I feel comfortable using right now is logic, and that was a reasonable logic play IMO.

[Rad]

Good to know about the alerts somnus.

Corwin, Bella is only scum if she's with bbt. It's good to hear her thoughts about the game state directly because we could be looking at scum Bella in endgame 2v1. I haven't thought through what 2v1 with Bella in it looks like but additional input from her here helps regardless. I don't think Bella is an auto vote on bbt scum flip but it's certainly possible. Like I mentioned, I would read more into Bella including her past games if I end up in final stage with her. Whiskey's past thoughts would of course be taken into consideration but I'm sure he would agree here that it's not 100% Bella bbt confirmed team even if bbt flips red.

[Rad]

Well, whiskey did say this in 1117

"Earlier I said if they flip red then I would turbo elim Bella next and I still stand by that."

So maybe he would still stand by that. I've taken note.

It still makes sense to want more info from Bella here so I'm not sure why you're trying to push me into just having faith in whiskeys read and not trying to figure this out for myself. It's whiskeys read convenient for you?

[Rad]

So we have 3 wifom defenses right now between me, Bella, and somnus. How about you Corwin. What does scum!Corwin do in d3 when he sees my vote on bbt and how is it different than the supposed town!corwin play that happened?

[Rad]

Bella, if scum!BBT, why is town!Bella still alive? This has been troubling me.

I've thought through this earlier but I'll wait for Bella to answer.

[Rad]

So we have 3 wifom defenses right now between me, Bella, and somnus. How about you Corwin. What does scum!Corwin do in d3 when he sees my vote on bbt and how is it different than the supposed town!corwin play that happened?

Wait to hammer and not provide exclusions? At least, I'd hope... I've never drawn scum *sad trombone noises*

Hmm, first time newbie scum!Corwin probably doesn't bus his scum partner that easily. He might not realize he should wait for somnus to double hammer. You having never played scum before actually voids what I said in 1201. Holy shit I've thought you were an SE this whole time, but you replaced mq. derrrrr fuck

[Rad]

Whiskey might even have pushed you d2 if I was less openly reluctant.

I mean, this just isn't true. You literally absolved yourself of all responsibility at D2 end and said you'll do whatever Whiskey wants you to. So, if he had wanted to elim me, he could have.

see the 2 bolded underlined points

What do you think Rad? If you're gonna make me a double voter I want your input.

I just can't read cheap. He says a lot, gives a lot of reads, but I don't get a whole lot from it. I don't feel he progresses any threads or creates any interesting new ones. I clicked with his emotion from the vasex wagon but other than that, I dunno, null read. I think the way I described that should be a scum read but I'm not confident in that conclusion.

He's like the opposite of bbt. I feel like bbt does all the stuff that cheap is not doing. Stirs things up, constant pressure, not afraid to jump on wagons or create new one.

Scum!bbt has sold me on the illusion of town effort. Scum!cheap is making me wonder if he's town. Town!bbt feels like town that has a more aggressive and angering style, town!cheap would be a great confirmed town iso.

I see scum in somnus. I see scum in Corwin. I'm up for whatever you are whiskey. I think taking bbt out here is problematic for bbt somnus scum team, and losing town!bbt, but if I'm the only one who thinks that's possible, probably not worth worrying about.

I’m pretty much in lockstep with you here. I know exactly what you mean about BBT’s level of involvement and how that is making your read. I tend to agree with you too. I’ve said as much throughout the game irt effort and content and stuff like that. I have been SR Cheapside mildly all game and it hasn’t really gone away. I think the reasons for a BBT SR ~exist which makes reading them harder for me. It also makes them a good/safe vote for scum to make so I’m considering that too.

If you don’t want BBT then Cheapside is good for me.

Their arguments, particularly irt Bella, seem to be coming in bad faith.

[Rad]

Does anyone disagree that BBT was dead town's biggest scum read?

[Rad]

Why does scum!Somnus NK whiskey? Shouldn't he have NK'd Bella? He should expect me and whiskey to tunnel vision town!BBT today in a scum!Somnus killing Bella scenario.

Also, a question if I may. Everyone is like 'OMG, BBT killed Spartan because he said he was scum!' Why didn't scum!BBT kill Somnus N1?

I think Spartan was more heavily read as town than Somnus was. From what I remember, only vasex was screaming somnus town.

I guess a BBT somnus scum team makes all points above irrelevant

[Rad]

Yeah somnus, that's all I'm getting at here. I don't mean to be offensive when I say town deserves to lose if bbt flips green. I mean to say that everyone confirmed town has misread a town!bbt so fuck it, this is town's read, right or wrong.

Seems like a good chance he flips red. I'm not sure what better play there could be for town here.

[Rad]

Hey somnus, let me know when you're around. I got a quick fire question for you if you would humor me.

[Rad]

A few questions actually. Let me know when you can be available. I want you to answer them quickly and without much thought. They're not trick questions, but the answers are important to me.

[Rad]

I don't disagree, and normally I wouldn't put an enormous amount of emphasis on it, especially when talking about JUST the 2 night-kills. But literally every dead/confirmed town has been massively scum-reading that slot, and most of them died shortly thereafter (not just from night-kills). For that slot to flip town, it would mean not only that myself, Vasex, Spartan, Cheapside, and Whiskey all misread it, but that all of the damaging town plays from that slot have somehow come from town. Possible? Yes, sure.

This is what my earlier post referred to. Again, I can't elim anyone by myself. For people scum reading me to be elimmed, they needed 5 and 4 votes respectively. So acting like 'They died because they scum read BBT' makes no sense at all.

I also refer to my earlier points - which nobody replied to.

a) Scum!BBT completely dictated NKs and my partner had literally 0 input.
b) Scum!BBT is so bad that he literally just kills whoever scum reads him.
c) Scum!BBT literally unvoted two players at L-1 because...??? I would love for anyone to finish this sentence for me.
d) Scum!BBT did all of the above AND LEFT SOMNUS ALIVE.

Somebody make that make sense.

@somnus, trust me, I am considering it more today than I was yesterday. A lot. I've also decided you could be town, which is also a surprise.

Talk to me about this.

a) not following you on this idea. Why wouldn't your partner have input? What if your partner is a newbie scum!Corwin? He would be following your lead, wouldn't he?
b) like Bella said, maybe the NKs were simply the most town read players. Thinking beyond that is NKA right? And you don't like NKA to begin with, so what's your point. Are you suggesting scum!BBT absolutely does wifom NK plays no matter what?
c) scum!BBT can hop off a wagon with enough momentum for town to finish itself. Hopping off an E-1 isn't AI in itself, depends on the circumstances, wouldn't you agree? So if it's not inherently AI, why are you suggesting it is?
d) yeah I haven't ruled out a bbt somnus scum team, but anyway, again, the NKs were the most town read players and there were people like me who were reading somnus scum.

Here was my night note on if somnus got NK'd:

"Mercy kill from scum!whiskey? Absolutely no reason to kill somnus here."

*shrug*

[Rad]

Still on somnus?

[Rad]

Thanks somnus. I'm working through a read on you. I don't want to give scum!Somnus a bunch of time to think about why I'm asking these specific questions, and I think town!Somnus can answer them easily. It could lead to nothing but it could also help me in my read. Let me know when you're ready and I'll fire out 3 questions, 1 at a time.

[Rad]

what time did you wake up today?

[Rad]

what time did you wake up yesterday?

[Rad]

You can't remember yesterday?

[Rad]

Ok thanks. Good enough. You already answered my third question (what time do you usually wake up?). Thanks for playing along I appreciate it. I know they seem like silly questions, but they had to do with when I placed my vote on BBT + your claims about the alerts when you're scum. If you were sleeping when I placed my vote at 8:28 am, it seems reasonable you could have slept through an alert. So this didn't actually help my read on that at all. No biggy, comes out a wash, but I appreciate your time.

[Rad]

I mean, I guess if you wake up at noon, you still have 45min to get a hammer vote in in a somnus/corwin scum team scenario. I dunno. Something I'm thinking about right now. I want to cross that team off my list because once I do it guarantees BBT scum for me.

[Rad]

Ok I'll be out for a bit. Watching end of peaky blinders with my wife Will be back on later and I'll probably post some stuff I've come up with about somnus.

[Rad]

Ok, did some reading last night. Mainly somnus stuff.

I confirmed that somnus did in fact wait like 7 days in 3p elo to hammer vote within 4 minutes. That, for me, confirms his statement about using the alerts in the past as scum. I mean, maybe that was coincidental, but I'll Occam's razor it as proof.

The game he's referring to starts day 4 here (Apr 11): https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13328442
and his hammer is here (Apr 18): https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13336932

Somnus is also completely burned out from playing scum. Maybe that causes him, as scum, to pull back and play way differently in order to be able to sustain yet another mafia role pull. If I was scum in his position, maybe I pull back a ton, but do I drop the endgame play? Probably not. I mean, why drop it? He's still in the game so he wants to win. Does scum!somnus stop caring at all when he's in the position to win another scum game based on a quick hammer? The hard part is getting to that point as scum. The easy part is kicking back and waiting for the right time to hammer in a town!BBT game where just about everyone's considering him scum.

In our hammer setup, as a scum team of somnus/corwin, somnus has 4.25 hours to pay attention. I dropped my vote at 8:28am EST and corwin's was on by 12:02pm EST. He had 45 minutes from that point to hammer, and the 3+ hours before that to discuss with corwin a potential hammer. What are the chances scum!somnus just totally botches this opportunity to end the misery of another scum game when all he has to do here is pay attention to a potential hammer?

Now, this certainly doesn't remove a potential BBT/somnus team. In that scenario, he has no reason to interact at all with this wagon. If he pops in there, he actually removes an additional possibility of somnus/corwin and somnus/rad and gives town!Rad and town!Corwin full knowledge that BBT is scum (could still be rad/corwin to town!bella). Not at all saying this makes somnus scum, but scum!BBT teammate scum!somnus probably shouldn't pop into the thread even if he's got alerts set and catches them in time.

On a more pro-town!somnus note, I feel like his play is different here than that game I referenced. He proved he can try-hard-scum in that game, but his try hard there reads very different than his try hard posts here, to me at least.

Somnus's tone has also completely changed here in d3 and that could be a few things, but I have no theories that convince me enough to share them.

While we're at it, let's also note this. Somnus reads from the dead:

Vasex - town
Spartan - town
Cheap - town
Whiskey - town

Bella, what do you think about the possibility of a somnus/corwin team? Does any of this convince you that it's not likely?

[Rad]

Follow up for Bella. If you're now convinced that a somnus/corwin team isn't likely, are you reading me town? If so, the scum team list town!Bella would be looking at points to BBT as scum.

Wanna vote him with me?

[Rad]

Yeah Bella, bbt corwin is currently my top scum team but I can't say with any certainty it's not you and bbt or even somnus bbt. You're in a position that you also have to worry about me and corwin, I get it, but let me suggest that me and corwin are the worst pairing on there. I clearly understand how scum ideally plays this day out and newbie scum corwin should be following my lead. I just wouldn't have played today out this way as scum, but even if you're unsure of that, I definitely wouldn't have played it out like me and corwin did. Absolute blunder city of rad corwin team here.

Corwins move d3 does make sense in a bbt corwin team though where newbie scum corwin is reacting to town!Rad's strange play without feedback from bbt first. Also makes sense paired with somnus but again, I'm thinking that is less likely due to somnus.

Bbt is the right pick today, especially if you're sold on somnus corwin not being the team.

[Rad]

Will get to the VCA today.

If Rad/Somnus is scum/scum that's some of the weirdest shit I've ever seen. Like, I knew exactly what Rad was doing as soon as he asked the first question. I'm sure Somnus did, too...

Yeah I know, it was obvious, but I had no way of getting the info that I could trust was useful without trying to get it out of him like that.

[Rad]

You know what, Bella. With both you and me convinced it's not somnus corwin, this is the correct move. If we're wrong, that's 2 town misreading it. This is a bbt scum game and I'll prove it here. Or it's somnus corwin and we were both wrong.

VOTE: bbt

[Rad]

My vote will sit here rest of the day and either somnus corwin can come win the game or we can flip red bbt.

[Rad]

I'm town and Bella reads somnus corwin as not the scum team, so I have no problem with my vote on you right now.

I'm the case of somnus corwin team, oh well. Bbt is most likely scum based on so many factors that this is the right move.

[Rad]

Are you worried about the VCA, Rad?

No. If you think vca is useful here, why haven't you been busy being useful giving us town!bbt's vca instead of busy crying that town is bad?

[Rad]

So we're playing %s now? Not BBT is scum because... Just well it seems the most likely so :shrug:

Yes. There is no certainty here, just high likelihood that bbt is scum and with Bella's belief that it's not somnus corwin, I know I'm town so the most likely setup is bbt scum, unless both me and Bella are wrong.

[Rad]

I haven't been crying that town is bad. I've been crying that your bad if you're town.

VCA takes time

And it's not just a likelihood play. You haven't been solving at all today. Just complaining. You also complained openly about Bella's vca when Bella should be town confirmed to a town!bbt.

[Rad]

I'm literally not unvoting you. The game solve is either somnus corwin or it's bbt scum team. Bella and I both think it's not likely somnus corwin and I know I'm town so this is my best vote.

[Rad]

UNVOTE:
Fuck. At corwin's request.

[Rad]

Rad, I'm about to go to bed, and I'd like more time to look at something before we elim. I've been on board with BBT today since before you started doing POE, and I still am, but I need some time also.

For the sake of figuring out bbt scum partner, I'm honoring corwin's request to wait until he has time to input.

[Rad]

Corwin somnus scum team would mean corwin just made another huge blunder by pushing me to unvote.

Bbt confirmed scum for me

[Rad]

Damn that's awesome. Please now waste your time distancing from your partner bbt.

[Rad]

You're right, because Bella's VCA was awful. Awful =/= scummy.

Yeah, but one of the things scum can do to help silence town is to make town think they're bad and that they should question their thoughts and reads.

There no town benefit to town telling other town they're bad, so it's a solid scum move disguised by emotion.

Doesn't mean town can't or won't sincerely do that, but it sure is a scummy move. All good though, you're scum so that move isn't actually rude, you're just playing for the win.

[Rad]

So what's your take away from bbt always being the counter wagon?