Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Titus]

I'm townbinning everyone with a number above 100

we are masons as far as I am concerned.

if this turns out to be tragically wrong later it's not my fault

I agree titus probably town, less convinced about anyone else in that set

Why are you saying this? You ought to be aware of the last game.

[Titus]

As for the answer, I could not fathom it without knowing my team.

[Titus]

As scum, I'd pick very different numbers with strong dayplayers versus strong nightplayers.

[Titus]

I'm not against a hem wagon but I would like more contribution from at least Mala, Titus, Klick, and Enchant, who each have 3 posts total, before day end. Have people played with Enchant in games where he does this (i.e. posts no content whatsoever) as town? I think the only game off the top of my head where I saw Enchant-town was a replace-in, so may be different meta, but he was actually participating.

Kinda tempted to vote Ari just to tie wagons.

Haven't read.

[Titus]

VOTE: Aus

[Titus]

VOTE: Aus

Why?

Looking to get associations. Don't know yet.

[Titus]

ok but think about all the associatives you could get from a Dwlee wagon

What does it do for me?

[Titus]

I'm bad with pronouns to but working on it.

No dice on the wagon though. I'd rather not vote repeats.

[Titus]

VOTE: hem

[Titus]

It means you should vote Klick

If you vote hem and they flip and I'm wrong, you get my vote tmo Gamma.

[Titus]

titus do you townread gamma

Yesish.

[Titus]

It means you should vote Klick

If you vote hem and they flip and I'm wrong, you get my vote tmo Gamma.

Why should I vote HEM?

He's shopping for a counter when he's the top.

[Titus]

ari is already my counter, titus

Right, which makes me suspect it's overloaded if you get on.

[Titus]

ari is already my counter, titus

Right, which makes me suspect it's overloaded if you get on.

Overloaded how?
I’m TR Ausuka rn

Is HEM got on Dwlee too many scum on it.

[Titus]

Could be D scum but not feeling that for ~reasons~.

[Titus]

My guees implo

[Titus]

so implo and i are buddies. what about implo makes you think scum?

Just the data I'm afraid

[Titus]

I would like an explanation from Gamma on Klick if he can elaborate bc this does ring a bell for klick scum to me but I can't remember what game. It could even be the same one but idr specifically.

Just the data I'm afraid

Does this mean my number pick?

Your number pick doesn't prevent you from being scum, but my vote theory suggests it.

[Titus]

whats your take on ge?

Fine for now

[Titus]

Titus isn't townreading Dwlee on Dwlee's play

she's townreading Dwlee on the way HEM is behaving

+1

[Titus]

like your response to her was "ari is already my counter, titus"


as in you already have a cw on me - except my votes went from 3 -> 2 and you don't seem to be getting anyone to bite on voting me so instead of trying to convince people to vote me cuz I'm mafia - you're asking other people to convince you to vote for Klick[shopping for an alternative]

The reason this is scummy is because it's not clear whether you've actually decided on an alignment for me, you're just browsing alternatives without resolving the actual issue.

Like gamma is trying to convince you to vote klick because gamma thinks klick is mafia cuz meta - you are not trying to convince Gamma that I'm mafia.

+1

[Titus]

It means you should vote Klick

If you vote hem and they flip and I'm wrong, you get my vote tmo Gamma.

Why should I vote HEM?

He's shopping for a counter when he's the top.

How does this differ from expected town!hem behaviour? Is town him not going to look at alternatives? Am I missing something here

Also would you mind elaborating on your dwlee read

Of course HEM wouldn't want to be eliminated. It's how he shopped that's the problem.

[Titus]

@titus, why does the data suggest implo? They are one of my few town reads.

His vote would likely be the vote HEM wouldn't want to join bc overload. Not as strong there.

[Titus]

I'm not inclined to vote any repeat today.

[Titus]

@titus, why does the data suggest implo? They are one of my few town reads.

His vote would likely be the vote HEM wouldn't want to join bc overload. Not as strong there.

Explain like I'm five?

Scum generally don't have 2 players on a four player wagon, so HEM would avoid his counter if another was on. Instead, he'd look to create another in case the first failed.

[Titus]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

SOP?

Standard Operating Procedure

is mathblade TMIing STD!town in this post?

The answer to that is no.

You’re more than welcome to suggest that though to help sort me.

You’ll find that fundamentally wrong but part of finding scum is suggesting a hypothesis then falsifying it so… *shrug*

That would be very very abnormal for you. What's your angle?

[Titus]

I'm townbinning everyone with a number above 100

we are masons as far as I am concerned.

if this turns out to be tragically wrong later it's not my fault

I agree titus probably town, less convinced about anyone else in that set

I want to see more from her but imho this is more scum indicative or NAI than town

Titus has been hella busy. I think whatever her alignment she’d want the vanilla version to avoid possibly screwing over whatever team she is on.

I am not going to speculate on this until dead chat. However, deliberately picking vanilla is stupid.

[Titus]

Math HEM Mala thoughts? Maybe Math sub with Roden

[Titus]

@Math, it's the false hypothesis comment that irks me

[Titus]

Ergh,

Implo just cratered again

[Titus]

Meh changing it up

HEM Implosion Mala/Roden...... then maybe Math.

That last Implosion post fished 6 alternative wagons to HEM while claiming to be ok with an HEM wagon.

[Titus]

I am okay with an HEM wagon and am in fact on the wagon

Then why shop 6 alternatives?

[Titus]

Ok. They're just open wolfing at this point.

[Titus]

Like sure, if I'm scum with hem i might want to pressure them well shopping alternatives.

I can also be (and indeed am) town who thinks hem is a good shot for scum but feels no need to commit to the hem wagon as the Only Thing Of Interest Today, because (a) why would I, and (b) I'm not like, 100% sure they're scum.

Like, if I'm scum with hem, what reason would I have for being so unabashedly bold about "shopping for alternatives"? I could just... not. Or I could just do it and not say I am. Or I could just like, focus on one person who I also like as scum. Doesn't it make more sense for me to just be town who's train-of-thought-ing? Does Titus calling me scum with hem mean that she's scum with hem bc she's shopping for an alternative in me? No. (Yes, that's a bit reductive, but etc).

I'm not shopping for an alternative in you.

Your entire rationale is wifom.

I'd consider a possibility of that being town if you were confident in any of those players being scum.

[Titus]

So as flawed as I think it is, I think it’s more protown to let her logic go.

Who are you and what have you done w Mathblade?

[Titus]

Happy Cake day Mala.

Math, we aren't doing mechanics debates again.

HEM by play please

Good night.

[Titus]

Happy Cake day Mala.

Math, we aren't doing mechanics debates again.

HEM by play please

Good night.

Cool HEM is a no go by day play

The people I want by town play right now are TRd so *shrug*

What's your readslist?

[Titus]

People want to kill Enchant today - but this doesn't make sense because if Enchant is town, the mafia should solve his slot for us via NK.

This

[Titus]

Meh changing it up

HEM Implosion Mala/Roden...... then maybe Math.

That last Implosion post fished 6 alternative wagons to HEM while claiming to be ok with an HEM wagon.

Can you explain Implosion, Mala, Roden?

Yes.

Implosion's relation to HEM is super scummy. Mala and Roden lack the impact they should.

[Titus]

implo you're going to hate this but the impression I get from your conversation with mathblade is that he's town and you're mafia and you know hem is mafia and you can't believe how absurdly wrong mathblade is. hehe

Agreed.

[Titus]

Ugh HEM wagon is dying. Will vote Implosion if there's support there.

No on Ari.

[Titus]

How do you have 3 associative so confidently this early in the game?

He's shopping.

[Titus]

I find it suspect there's a push on Enchant "not playing the game" but not on mala.

[Titus]

I'm about 75% sure town Math which is good enough for today.

[Titus]

Feel better HEM.

No on Dwlee. Roden looks bad and I doubt scum match each other.

[Titus]

Feel better HEM.

No on Dwlee. Roden looks bad and I doubt scum match each other.

Match each other? What does this mean?

Pick the same number.

[Titus]

Feel better HEM.

No on Dwlee. Roden looks bad and I doubt scum match each other.

why does roden look bad
I'm starting to get worried about you because our thought processes feel out of sync

Lack of influence and drive. I'm worried your wagon is a chainsaw to Cakez.

[Titus]

Error 404: Titus got her games mixed up.

[Titus]

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

[Titus]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

Dwlee or Titus?

I already said this somewhere. No repeats and Roden is scummy.

[Titus]

The number theory Titus has is meaningless because hypothetically scum could pick the same number to look unaligned, especially a single digit number. Not saying either are scum especially based on this but her theory is not good.

They could, but it's unlikely given they'd sabotage themselves to be near the bottom

[Titus]

One thing that did make me wonder @Math was her reaction to your theory about her picking the number she did to be vanilla and she said it would be stupid to do that. But I don’t see why anyone picks the number she did, if they’re not hoping to get vanilla, so her response to that didn’t really make a lot of sense while your theory did.

I did this before to take a low priority PR.

[Titus]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

Dwlee or Titus?

I already said this somewhere. No repeats and Roden is scummy.

Dwlee’s prolonged silence is way scummier than Roden

Why do you feel Roden is scummier than Dwlee?

Dwelee tries to have an impact. I can't remember a single post Roden has made.

[Titus]

I think so. I can't remember and can't find it.

[Titus]

From all my wagon, i only got actual heat from ari so i might belueve that shes the least likely to be scum here cause ive been mulling over that she might be genuine

I also believe that ari jumped on me super strongly in a way that makes me think she was misrepping me and trying to discredit me

???
these thoughts seem at odds

Idk, I contradict myself a lot but he mentioned the word “misrep” so idk?

Contradicting myself is town indicative for me because it means I’m constantly questioning things but that’s me. For a player like Titus otoh, it could be a scumtell.

Contradictions alone aren't AI. It's the context.

[Titus]

I think if Enchant is scum, it will be caught out in massclaim unless scum hit VTs.

[Titus]

That being said HEM Implosion Enchant might be a thing.

[Titus]

This is your train station attendant. Seats on the Dwlee99 wagon is closed due to a malfunction. There is a discount for getting on HEM.

[Titus]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

[Titus]

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

[Titus]

Could be scum but cp, where are his buddies defending him or do you think he’s possibly being bussed? Basically if HEM is scum, it would appear that his buddies are fine with his lim, unless you think it’s Math because I don’t think anyone else is trying to derail that wagon.

That may mean absolutely nothing though. It’s possible he’s scum and buddies are quiet but unless he and Math are SvS, if HEM is scum here, his buddies if not Math (and I don’t think Math would hard defend a buddy like that) are remaining quiet.

So what are your thoughts on that?

Of course, anyone pushing a cw counterwagon could possibly be a potential buddy if HEM is scum but it’s also possible Math could be right. I don’t have any srs yet. I briefly thought Math but I currently lean not. \_0_/

Aside from possibly Implo, I think it's more refusal to get on than a bus.

[Titus]

*defense

[Titus]

I am reassured math has me in their scum pool, plus de change, but worried I'm getting a pass from Titus.

Fair.

[Titus]

Lurking for purpose is pretty boring.

What does that even mean? I lurk if I don’t have anything worthwhile to contribute. If I have a purpose, I will likely say something.

Enchant's claiming to lurk to avoid being shot.

[Titus]

If we policy Enchant, it should be d2 or d3 as I'd like to get something useful from D1. It might be too late after d3 if Enchant picked a scummy role.

[Titus]

Math, Enchant thoughts?

[Titus]

The way I figure if HEM dies and flips town like I think they will then we work from my PoE tomorrow or scum nightkill me
If HEM flips scum then I was an idiot

There’s literally no point in forcing my PoE. At E-1 I just drop a reads list.

Since when do you not force your PoE?

[Titus]

Math who is your PoE?

[Titus]

I got a migraine. Catching up tmo.

[Titus]

I'm debating changing my vote to Math but I need to catchup and see if I feel this way this afternoon. The fact Math is resigning himself to what he argues is a miselimination feels really scummy. While I've read none of Roden's posts in detail, the length along with the hyperlinks suggest an attempt at an impact so I can sort the slot.

[Titus]

Not feeling well. Responses may be unclear. 2.5 hours from reading games. Taking day largely off bc ill. Got to covid test point but negative.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: HEM

Don't want an elim when ill.

Who claimed vig?

[Titus]

I haven't read. Can someone 411

[Titus]

UNVOTE: HEM

Don't want an elim when ill.

Who claimed vig?

No one

Someone subtly hinted they’d shoot me but instead are pushing on me

But they can just shoot me instead

Who?

[Titus]

Reading aka skimming now

[Titus]

I think mathblade is much more likely to be bad!town than scum.

if mathblade is scum and hem is town, I don't think mathblade WKs him, scum!blade p much takes any mislim he can get so HEM is almost always a better lim than mathblade.

Depends on wagon setup. If he feels his vote isn't needed it sets him up for d2 and d3

[Titus]

???
imo that's a massive contradiction to the point you're making here. Titus was being exceptionally not-nice and was scum.

That is my point exactly

Default is not nice

no it isn't??????

It just is and I proved where you said Titus treats me like that every game

It’s what everyone does.

Math is ridiculous.

I could say the sky is blue or cloudy or whatever with a photograph but then we’d still get Math is moonlogicky.

No. If you have

valid,

succint

plausible and simple

theories I agree.

[Titus]

tonally he does feel like fustrated town mathblade :>

100% disagree. He doesn't feel like Math period. There's no drive at all. No push to solve. No theories. Just whatever elim HEM.

If anything, I would expect Town!Math to have a theory on scum and who is defending them since scum theory is obvious here.

[Titus]

ngl what Harley is saying is starting to resonate in my thinkpan a bit
I noticed in a prior game that nero cain tends to have reads on me that are inverse to his alignment
the only exception would be singleball games where I'm scum against him, and I think he's 50/50 on those

Why is Nero relevant here?

[Titus]

I’ve not decided yet. Rn, I lean to voting HEM but feel kind’ve icky doing it while the dude is in surgery. I don’t vote just for the sake of voting ever and I won’t be pressured into doing it.

However, I’m far from confident on that read or any other. I have more confidence in who I think is likely town. I don’t have any confident srs yet.

Who are your current TRs? I am wanting to bounce off you when I finish the catchup.

[Titus]

Why are people townreading math when his read on me is awful

You can’t parse Math solely based off of reads. I don’t agree with his reads but he’s reminding me quite a bit here of White Flag.

Agreed. His objective and how he pushes it is how you read him. Similar to me but different tones.

[Titus]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=22566

Anyway, White Flag

I'm not reading this without a specific thing to look for but White Flag does bare structural similarities. Was he similarly standoffish on wagons being pushed on town?

[Titus]

I’m really not trying to be either argumentative or difficult but there are some games where I’ve done things that are pretty much impossible for me to ever replicate as scum and HDP is definitely one of those games and imo, anyone. not being able to clearly see I was town in that, isn’t imho okay at reading me. If you misread me in a game where it is far less obvious than that one, I’d view it differently.

I think it's just because posts like these more likely come from town!you vs scum!you.

To add on to this, I don't really get the sense that you're trying to get town read. I think you're just vibing in this game and suspicious of the fact that you're getting town read for it vs when you do actively try to get town read and don't succeed.

This is matching my thoughts as well. In particular the meta invitation, rather than a conclusion felt rather town from HQ. Same with StD interactions. It could be borrowing a page from my or math's playbook but I think it's a bit more smooth than it would be if coached.

[Titus]

sorry
you saying FL caused me to bluescreen

anyway Math can have bad reads as town but like Titus there's generally at least an ability to understand where he's coming from
I also think he's generating a lot of friction which feels like it might be indicative of scum!him?
in addition Klick basically did a rinse-repeat of the last time I saw him as scum

Can you talk more about Klick here?

[Titus]

I had a look at the playerlist and Roden is the only one who'll get this so I'll ask him

@Roden

, should I do that thing I did in radio buzz where I reread the game with my top TRs locked in and figured out who looked suspect based on that consideration?

I don't think it would hurt. In Radio Buzz, the town block formed early on and scum couldn't figure out how to break in. Though in my case the posting was also just a bit too much for me to keep up, which doesn't seem like too big of a problem in this game. If nothing else, I think looking at your town block and then seeing who's trying to discredit it and break it up would be helpful.

I like this posting in a way, scum need to infect a townblock. It gives some motivation to scum!Math, misfade HEM with no scum, cause town block to turn on itself.

[Titus]

Like if Math is scum here, he’s playing extremely suboptimally no?

I'd like you to elaborate on this point. I'm not finding HEM partnered as an N1 scumflip is horrible yet the only partner I've seen is implosion and maaaybe Math in wifom. That's possible but it doesn't make much sense. I would be expecting someone to push the end of the day if HEM was town and scum felt in any danger of losing the flip or being eliminated themselves.

[Titus]

It’s more relational things

HEM I really don’t think he’s scum. I can look at the people who sus HEM yet don’t have a commitment to vote there

I scumread Dwlee as they’re not following their meta ans Titus is sus. The remainder I am sorting out

Unless you think Dwelee and I are partners, my "being sus" has no impact on a read on Dwlee. How are they "not following their meta"? Since when do you use meta to scumread someone?

[Titus]

idk
but I dislike how he's being hard to work with when it comes to explaining reads
which is ironic because I think he pushed StD for that earlier

I don’t really see a point right now

HEM is the de facto elim

No one is going to change their minds

From HEM’s flip and who scum kill I can see where to go from here

I likely don’t die

There just literally is no point in it

My catchup is literally changing my mind on a lot.

VOTE: Mathblade

[Titus]

You are

And so?

Tomorrow is a new day.

I can’t create a wagon

Without anyway to pressure anyone there isn’t a way to read anyone

We’re literally just waiting for the inevitable miselim

The group decided no one is moving their vote from HEM and Ari is there in spirit.

I would need almost the entire rest of the game to even mount anything worth a response

Game is just in stuck dead mode

The Math I know says a fuck you X is scum for like 50000 pages and sorts and gets theories based on these pushes. You giving up is a huge red flag to me.

[Titus]

I don't think anyone said they don't want to talk about your scum reads. As far as what you said to me, you just kinda asked me what I thought of a Titus/Dwlee/Gamma team, and while I mostly disagreed with it I didn't say the first two were impossible by any means. I didn't get a response to it at all actually.

After I died in Flash Games I still kept up a bit and saw what you had to say about my read on Titus, so I know you can expound on what makes her scummy and when you think someone is reading her incorrectly.

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

And if you really think HEM is town then you need to explain it, it's not worth hiding why you TR him if he gets mis-elim'd. You're not even implying that it would break any rules to explain it, so I don't get why you would hold back there.

This on steroids. Sure there's some reactionary push from Math possibly if he feels hopeless but he'd still try to get the lims through. He'd be patient and try to learn why he isn't as persuasive as some in fewer posts. It's an odd look. Math isn't lockscum by any stretch but I want him to try and play normally. Case, Listen, consider alternatives, find town work with them even if it means compromising.

That's the one thing Math can't do well is compromise.

[Titus]

I need to be sold on a scumread, however it does concern me that no one is really trying to save HEM and HEM not doing much could just be related to his just recovering from surgery, so it’s frustrating. Hopefully he does more tomorrow.

Also not sure why he’s claiming vt? It’s kind’ve antitown to do that in case he isn’t flipped and it doesn’t actually tell us anything about his alignment.

I would have claimed my selection if run up as a VT given that someone above has to have that selection and I think HEM is relatively low.

[Titus]

I’m gonna say Gamma and Roden are now my top trs.

As of now, I'm fine with you me Gamma Roden as a town core because of this catchup.

[Titus]

VOTE: HEM

I don't think it makes sense to elim Mathblade before HEM and I think there are several moments that are kind of townie for MB - like that time when he said I should know he's town or w/e.

Yuck.

[Titus]

Titus is debating moving off to me because she smells I am the bigger miselim but wants to be sure she can get me.

This post is the type of post that I usually expect from Mathblade. It's wrong and OMGUS but still what I expect.

[Titus]

Those who genuinely think HEM is scum would want to stay on HEM scum. They wouldn’t destroy one wagon to move to a maybe wagon where some people townread me.

Ergo HEM is town and I am town

Restart RVS if you have to.

This is actually a thing in this setup and sometimes oddly enough in not weird lims. People use wagons to feel each other out and don't just lock in the first one.

[Titus]

Those who genuinely think HEM is scum would want to stay on HEM scum. They wouldn’t destroy one wagon to move to a maybe wagon where some people townread me.

Ergo HEM is town and I am town

Restart RVS if you have to.

Or you’re both scum

Also already addressed in why don’t you want to vote HEM?

You’d “prove” me scum (logically impossible) as I am town

No.

Yep

You scumread HEM yet won’t vote him

You don’t want the egg on your face when HEM flips town

This is an odd position from HEM is inevitable I won't push anyone to pushing HEM to have people get egg on their faces. Math is actively encouraging people to vote town in a way. Instead, he should be casing me. However, his big push is my absence and lack of effort which explained by a two day migraine.

[Titus]

so why dont u vote for hem and prove yourself town

Because then I would eat a ban for town voting town post game

How many times have I policy eliminated you? Eliminating town because of game health? It's not an automatic ban. That being said, I wouldn't do it here nor am I advocating to do it.

[Titus]

why even speculate out loud about who is a vig

Normally, I agree this is a bad idea. However, if some people drafted vig and didn't get it, that information might be useful.

[Titus]

Alright here's where I am

Gamma StD HQ --- Hard town
Bella - Lean Town
Dwlee - Weak Town
HEM implosion Ari Auska - Null (Waiting to see how things play out)


Enchant Wallflower - Problematic
Math - Lean Scum (Needs to stop throwing a fit, cool down, study persuasive people or whatever) That would make him a lot easier to read. I'm ok with eliminating him for now. I just don't see the town motivation in this attitude.

[Titus]

Is this specifically as town, as scum, or both?

Both. Ari went into detail earlier and you had some annoyance with his ticks. He has to "prove" things and accepts his opinion as facts. As scum, he usually awkwardly compromises after awhile. As town, it's like dragging teeth to get him to his second scumread unless a wagon is there first even if he's otherwise vanity voting. He has a flaw of saying on more thing to persuade. He does that as scum too. So it's different.

The fact Math was "sassing" (my descriptor) by saying he'd give naked reads because that's what everyone else does is odd. His refusal to push a counterwagon to a wagon he's townreading is odd as both alignments. I don't like his refusal to delve deeper so I think he's scum emulating. I could be wrong but I don't like it. I want him to learn how to listen to people and that's not just reading what they write.

[Titus]

I'm this amazing thing called busy

Like I started a full time job for the summer and moved across the country busy

If you have anything that isn't "dwlee isn't posting like a bored college student" lmk

Nah I am quite good with you’re content with TvT wagons so you didn’t have to post once you voted HeM you checked out

Then when me your biggest accuser picked up steam you voted me

You still aren’t interacting with the game

What do you think of my readslist? What's yours look like?

[Titus]

Alright here's where I am

Gamma StD HQ --- Hard town
Bella - Lean Town
Dwlee - Weak Town
HEM implosion Ari Auska - Null (Waiting to see how things play out)


Enchant Wallflower - Problematic
Math - Lean Scum (Needs to stop throwing a fit, cool down, study persuasive people or whatever) That would make him a lot easier to read. I'm ok with eliminating him for now. I just don't see the town motivation in this attitude.

This here Math FtR

[Titus]

sorry
you saying FL caused me to bluescreen

anyway Math can have bad reads as town but like Titus there's generally at least an ability to understand where he's coming from
I also think he's generating a lot of friction which feels like it might be indicative of scum!him?
in addition Klick basically did a rinse-repeat of the last time I saw him as scum

Can you talk more about Klick here?

pretty sure I already did?

Humor me and explain please. Brain not firing on all cylinders.

[Titus]

Feel better HEM.

No on Dwlee. Roden looks bad and I doubt scum match each other.

Dwlee scum for not posting
Titus scum for saying no on Dwlee without quantifying
Ari town
Std prob town but occasional pings

Everyone else I kinda don’t give a fuck since they don’t want to talk and just sat on HEM

Now we have a game I might give a fuck

So Ari is your only solid town read?

[Titus]

Alright here's where I am

Gamma StD HQ --- Hard town
Bella - Lean Town
Dwlee - Weak Town
HEM implosion Ari Auska - Null (Waiting to see how things play out)


Enchant Wallflower - Problematic
Math - Lean Scum (Needs to stop throwing a fit, cool down, study persuasive people or whatever) That would make him a lot easier to read. I'm ok with eliminating him for now. I just don't see the town motivation in this attitude.

why is ari null?
also my mind feels like a smear on pavement rn

I don't get their objectives yet. I'm sure if I was feeling better I'd have an opinion.

[Titus]

@dwlee lots of could bes

I see zero solve on you.

What's the deal with HQ for you? Town or Scum?

[Titus]

Everyone else to be reads like they don’t want to talk to me so shrug

You've been so angry that no one wants to talk to you. No one feels they'd be heard. Find people with good thoughts and promote them. Don't just focus on repeating X Y Z is scum. People tune you out and get annoyed which makes it harder, which causes you to post more to "get through". Just listen for awhile and post reads on occasion.

[Titus]

Everyone else to be reads like they don’t want to talk to me so shrug

You've been so angry that no one wants to talk to you. No one feels they'd be heard. Find people with good thoughts and promote them. Don't just focus on repeating X Y Z is scum. People tune you out and get annoyed which makes it harder, which causes you to post more to "get through". Just listen for awhile and post reads on occasion.

Continually asking for my opinion while I was shutting up is counter indicative

By promoting people you think are correct, you are giving your opinion in less posts. You coordinate rather than preach. People get encouraged by that. Just repeating the same thing over and over just says well that's Math's opinion, I know that. I'm going to do my own thing.

[Titus]

Alright here's where I am

Gamma StD HQ --- Hard town
Bella - Lean Town
Dwlee - Weak Town
HEM implosion Ari Auska - Null (Waiting to see how things play out)


Enchant Wallflower - Problematic
Math - Lean Scum (Needs to stop throwing a fit, cool down, study persuasive people or whatever) That would make him a lot easier to read. I'm ok with eliminating him for now. I just don't see the town motivation in this attitude.

why is ari null?
also my mind feels like a smear on pavement rn

I don't get their objectives yet. I'm sure if I was feeling better I'd have an opinion.

also where is roden?

Hard Town mb

[Titus]

Everyone else to be reads like they don’t want to talk to me so shrug

You've been so angry that no one wants to talk to you. No one feels they'd be heard. Find people with good thoughts and promote them. Don't just focus on repeating X Y Z is scum. People tune you out and get annoyed which makes it harder, which causes you to post more to "get through". Just listen for awhile and post reads on occasion.

Continually asking for my opinion while I was shutting up is counter indicative

By promoting people you think are correct, you are giving your opinion in less posts. You coordinate rather than preach. People get encouraged by that. Just repeating the same thing over and over just says well that's Math's opinion, I know that. I'm going to do my own thing.

That’s literally the same thing

Coordinating = convincing people you are right = repeating yourself

Nope and until you get the difference, you will have the persuasiveness of a housefly in a venus fly trap.

[Titus]

Math, while I'm not solely responsible, I can explain how the wagons developed on HEM and my role in them, why I left and how this game is going socially if you'd like. I think it might help if you're town so you can learn exactly how to reach people possibly. I'd like to reach you if you're town. Engaging you on your points won't help me sort you and I doubt it will help you sort me if you're town. Seeing how you can interact with others more positively might. I'm hoping so at least. It'll take a lot of energy from me though with specific posts as examples and including feedback you've gotten from other people and how they have told you that you've rubbed them the wrong way. If you're willing to listen, I'm willing to try.

[Titus]

Math, while I'm not solely responsible, I can explain how the wagons developed on HEM and my role in them, why I left and how this game is going socially if you'd like. I think it might help if you're town so you can learn exactly how to reach people possibly. I'd like to reach you if you're town. Engaging you on your points won't help me sort you and I doubt it will help you sort me if you're town. Seeing how you can interact with others more positively might. I'm hoping so at least. It'll take a lot of energy from me though with specific posts as examples and including feedback you've gotten from other people and how they have told you that you've rubbed them the wrong way. If you're willing to listen, I'm willing to try.

[Titus]

Math, while I'm not solely responsible, I can explain how the wagons developed on HEM and my role in them, why I left and how this game is going socially if you'd like. I think it might help if you're town so you can learn exactly how to reach people possibly. I'd like to reach you if you're town. Engaging you on your points won't help me sort you and I doubt it will help you sort me if you're town. Seeing how you can interact with others more positively might. I'm hoping so at least. It'll take a lot of energy from me though with specific posts as examples and including feedback you've gotten from other people and how they have told you that you've rubbed them the wrong way. If you're willing to listen, I'm willing to try.

[Titus]

Alright, well I guess it's ignoring you when I disagree since you've ruled out a productive conversation because you think I am scum.

I'm not even sure you are but I was hoping to at least talk to you about why you have so much trouble here. If that's not a conversation you're ready for, I guess it's Math can be limmed when I disagree because I don't want to deal.

[Titus]

*shrug* I'm sorry if you felt I was talking down to you. That wasn't my intent. I'll leave open the possibility that I was inartful in my wording. I don't really care how others perceive my alignment or give brownie points. I'm reaching out to sort you and to have you be a better communicator for this site's meta. I'm in no way saying you can't talk to people IRL or on other sites. Just something you're doing here is ineffective on this site for this crowd and it's not your name because you could alt and obscure that.

[Titus]

I'd compromise on Enchant if I can't get anything else good but I am a bit worried as to the timing. I think we should ideally give Enchant 1 day.

[Titus]

I do think it's best to avoid talking to Math atm until he's ready to listen about how he's affecting people and how his communication isn't working. He's just not willing to. I'm not going to engage his opinions on me, but if someone thinks he makes a particular point they'd want my input on, I'd be glad to answer.

I don't think Math will be better until Dwlee or I flip or are mech cleared, even if I reasses on Dwlee. Math's positions make me not want to though even though I don't have a strong read on Dwlee. I just feel he is town.

Also, given the fact we're getting a Math wagon together,, I find Wallflower's timing off. Enchant strategically isn't be best lim for day 1 because he's a certain power role. If he took vengeful (pretty much a scum claim) it will not change. If he took ascetic cop, he'll get a result unless scum kill him. The only exception is that if Enchant took a one shot vig. He'd use it N1 and would have next to no idea who to shoot. However, there's a risk any scum takes the one shot vig.

[Titus]

i still think flipping mathblade over hem is a very suboptimal play because the odds of scum!mb WKing a town!hem is extraordinarily low. i think he is way overdoing the defense here.

Fair. I am not sure exactly what Math's agenda is. He's still my favorite lim right now though.

Who exactly is your townblock and your scumblock?

[Titus]

Now, I expect that if HEM flipps scum, Math will play the I don’t hard defend my buddy sctick.

I don't think this works with anyone who has ever played a game with Math. He would own that he hard defends either way because he has his opinions and no one could dispute that because he is as stubborn when he's wrong as he's right.

[Titus]

i still think flipping mathblade over hem is a very suboptimal play because the odds of scum!mb WKing a town!hem is extraordinarily low. i think he is way overdoing the defense here.

Fair. I am not sure exactly what Math's agenda is. He's still my favorite lim right now though.

Who exactly is your townblock and your scumblock?

townblock is hq titus gamma std mathblade

i think scum are hem enchant

im shaky on implo think he could be third not anywhere near as good feeling tbh

What about Wallflower? Aside from Math, I like your townblock but I need more on Ausuka. Can you explain?

[Titus]

I'm kinda just in the mood where we can eliminate anyone who isn't Gamma Roden HQ Bella or myself, maybe Ari because she's townblock adjacent and Tring most of the townblock. Thoughts HQ? I'm kinda reluctant to do HEM due to Math. Enchant gtmh ok. Dwlee not feeling it.

That leaves Wallflower Ausuka implosion and Math.


HQ is totally right on Math meta but this game is unlike any I have seen of him. He usually has reads and then jumps to people aren't listening as opposed to why bother posting when no one will listen.

[Titus]

I do think it's best to avoid talking to Math atm until he's ready to listen about how he's affecting people and how his communication isn't working. He's just not willing to. I'm not going to engage his opinions on me, but if someone thinks he makes a particular point they'd want my input on, I'd be glad to answer.

I don't think Math will be better until Dwlee or I flip or are mech cleared, even if I reasses on Dwlee. Math's positions make me not want to though even though I don't have a strong read on Dwlee. I just feel he is town.

Also, given the fact we're getting a Math wagon together,, I find Wallflower's timing off. Enchant strategically isn't be best lim for day 1 because he's a certain power role. If he took vengeful (pretty much a scum claim) it will not change. If he took ascetic cop, he'll get a result unless scum kill him. The only exception is that if Enchant took a one shot vig. He'd use it N1 and would have next to no idea who to shoot. However, there's a risk any scum takes the one shot vig.

My thoughts might not make complete sense and maybe I have this pathological need to be DIFFERENT, but my understanding is that the main reason this matches Math-scum is the giving up on saving HEM rather than just continuing to push the townread, right? I am concerned by that too, but given the state of the game and especially HEM not even posting at the time, I can see a world where math truly feels that way.

When it comes to Enchant, it just feels… wrong to me that we have to let speculation about a role Enchant may or may not have take them off the table, especially when there’s no one else I actually could vote for right now and say “yeah that feels right to me”

So you're townreading everyone else?

[Titus]

@Wallflower then please go person by person and suggest why each slot is a no go.

[Titus]

Alright, well I guess it's ignoring you when I disagree since you've ruled out a productive conversation because you think I am scum.

I'm not even sure you are but I was hoping to at least talk to you about why you have so much trouble here. If that's not a conversation you're ready for, I guess it's Math can be limmed when I disagree because I don't want to deal.

What about a Math Wallflower team?

The meta point meh. Math hates meta. I can let that go. After all, Math should have a decent idea of my meta if he was that kind of player. He's not.

The policy lim I have a problem with.

[Titus]

Fair for now. As long as we get the town block together, we're good. It's like we're in our hydra but we get two votes.

[Titus]

Dwlee your townblock?

[Titus]

Oh random note....

When we get to massclaim it's PR ot VT first from top to bottom.
Then it's roleclaim claim from bottom to top.

This lets VTs CC any bogus PR at the bottom.

[Titus]

@titus, why am I town? You tr-ing me is not your town meta (in the neighbour game we just did I literally said I should've known you were scum as you didn't come in and tell me I was awful )

@roden, yes, math's reads were whack in team mafia - we made two particularly sub optimal elims that were partly led by math , but the thing that remind me most was math was ADAMANT that the set up/claimed prs/etc had to be a certain way because they'd obviously been taregtted for a nk at some point. Like, the whole game revolved for two day phases (from maths pov) on him being the nk, in exactly the way he seems adamant about hem - and he never was the nk target.

I could do enchant or dnwelee. Hens response hasn't inspired.

Scum you tends to have trouble engaging but I worry a bit when you aren't voting Math.

[Titus]

Oh random note....

When we get to massclaim it's PR ot VT first from top to bottom.
Then it's roleclaim claim from bottom to top.

This lets VTs CC any bogus PR at the bottom.

Mass claim should not happen today.

Agreed. Prepping the group for the possibility I die n1

[Titus]

Wallflower is scum with Math.

HEM is L minus 2
Math is L minus 3

[Titus]

@titus, when have you actually played with me scum? My memories of our games are us both being town and you freaking out at me. Can you point me to a game where I was scum and you were town.

Also, I haven't had a red role pm in literally years, so ...that answer has me really worried.

I can't recall a specific game we were in together period. I just went by memory.

What are your thoughts on Math?

Pedit yes

[Titus]

Wallflower is scum with Math.

HEM is L minus 2
Math is L minus 3

Since based off Math associatives, HEM is probably scum, Math wagon is extremely likely to be alltown. Why? Because Math is voting his former top “tr” HEM and HEM isn’t fighting it.

So if HEM flips red, scum is probably on that or offwagon. I think Math wagon is very likely pure. Roden is still town but it’s far better for the gamestate to lim Math first, that’s why scum is willing to sacrifice HEM, if he’s red and very likely.

I was scum in a game with a double scum wagon on d1, which was between my buddies Titus and I believe Ircher and I felt Titus had a much better chance to go the distance than Ircher, so I strategically bussed the weaker of my two buddies.

Possible. I still lean that HEM is town. Regardless, I feel your conclusion is right. Scum prefer an HEM flip over a math flip.

[Titus]

Name one game, aside from a guilty or supposedly this game, where Math has been an easy lim. I'll wait.

[Titus]

Name one game, aside from a guilty or supposedly this game, where Math has been an easy lim. I'll wait.

Stevens Universe
Powderpuff game

One town one scum

Stevens Universe I was an easy elim because I disagreed with the town block
Powderpuff girls me and the scum team messed up

That question was clearly directed at Bella, not you, to see if they could support their read.

Second, you fought tooth and nail against your lim in SU throwing out absurd theories in that game. If I recall correctly, you were the only miselimination done precisely for the opposite reason. You were making the game hard and being difficult. Scum didn't want to lim you.

The powder puff girls I don't recall. Link it please.

Do you have any reason Bella would be aware of either game?

Don't you have any curiousity where they got the idea you were an easy limination from?

[Titus]

Bella, question, is the last game you played with me before September 3, 2019?

[Titus]

HQ, stop debating Math. It will be a spam fest and drown out your points regarding his meta.

Bella did do team mafia, so maybe they're used to the adjustment but I don't think it really hit until 2021.

[Titus]

Bella, question, is the last game you played with me before September 3, 2019?

Apart from the neighborhood game we just did, I don't think so. Tbf my meta with math is smaller! I don't think I've tried to claim in an expert in either. Can you see from why my experience im concerned about you? It sounds like there's been a change though?

That's precisely why I asked. I had control and frustration issues that I was unaware of in IRL in my marriage. It took a toll on me. Through therapy I realized it and began playing better with others as town as a side effect.

[Titus]

If I get hammered my final guess is Implosion HQ Dwlee

Why am I not scum?

Also, getting you links Bella.

Two town games showing my range and a game showing scum frustration and compromise.

[Titus]

Bella

Titus Town without Math with changed frustration levels (but I still blow up as town from time to time) - https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89120

Scum me v Math town - Shows both of us frustrated, will go into more detail upon request

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987


Battle for Calcusia is a game with scum Math and town me

There was also a game that became follow the copish where I was town and he was scum, but I can't remember what it was.

[Titus]

Math, can you link the Parker game? I can't. Driving.

[Titus]

so calling HQ not town

is a little sus

As someone who is named as scum with her in Math's solve, I can get behind this as well tbh.

Whether I scumread you with her or not has no bearing on what HQ’s alignment is.

This is a fallacy.

Why haven't you even voted your SRs or even to sort?

[Titus]

Math, can you link the Parker game? I can't. Driving.

Sorry I am not sure which game you mean

And please don’t mafia and drive
It can wait a few hours

The one where I was a loyal jailkeeper and thought I was crumbing every single PR. Not Mafia was scum and missed a kill.

[Titus]

The problem is Math's meta doesn't firmly match

either

alignment here. Regardless of his role pm, I believe he is tilted off the face of the Earth.

Overall, I still think he's scum by meta for things I can elaborate later or this evening depending on dental appointment timings.

[Titus]

i just think hq and mathblade r both town >.>

Why is Math town?

[Titus]

@hq i get that you think town mb is too stubborn to capitulate but like ive gotten him to give up before:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

That's a first I've heard of it. Which read and when?

[Titus]

The problem is Math's meta doesn't firmly match

either

alignment here. Regardless of his role pm, I believe he is tilted off the face of the Earth.

Overall, I still think he's scum by meta for things I can elaborate later or this evening depending on dental appointment timings.

That’s true I don’t think I’ve ever seen quite this level of misrepping by him before but I’ve only played two games with him where we were different alignments. One - an irregular game - where he was scum and me town and WF where he was town and me scum.

Yes, his reaction to Implosion’s mistake or whatever was way over the top.

It's not the mistepping. It's the thought patterns entirely. They're

aimless

for him.

[Titus]

Yeah, so you think the excessive being tilted is a distraction to make us forget about all that?

No. Math is genuinely tilted. Doing the whole "it's pointless" gets him nowhere and he's fully capable of faking reads.

As town or scum, he usually has a visible agenda. When he's town with ignored reads, he doubles down and starts FoSing the townblock and looking for who he feels is agency captured ala Steven's Universe. He doesn't take prisoners.

So initial impression is case closed, he's scum.

However, he's clearly not pushing a scum agenda as that gives me pause a bit. He's not seeking the townblock to turn on each other (which ironically I also expect of town!Math). There's no hint of his long term play.

Overall, I'm strongly leaning scum and his reads are wifom. There's just something missing as a whole.

[Titus]

The big tie breaker is his "compromise" on HEM.

[Titus]

Yeah, so you think the excessive being tilted is a distraction to make us forget about all that?

No. Math is genuinely tilted. Doing the whole "it's pointless" gets him nowhere and he's fully capable of faking reads.

As town or scum, he usually has a visible agenda. When he's town with ignored reads, he doubles down and starts FoSing the townblock and looking for who he feels is agency captured ala Steven's Universe. He doesn't take prisoners.

So initial impression is case closed, he's scum.

However, he's clearly not pushing a scum agenda as that gives me pause a bit. He's not seeking the townblock to turn on each other (which ironically I also expect of town!Math). There's no hint of his long term play.

Overall, I'm strongly leaning scum and his reads are wifom. There's just something missing as a whole.

I know you’ve explained this many many times but can you please explain agency capture for me again?

Town tricked into working for scum.

[Titus]

Same thing in 2272 looks like, I literally just don't ask as many questions as I used to

As many I would buy

You’re at 0 unless I missed one

Math, would you join me on Wallflower?

If you determined an anti-lim pool of five or six players without regard to time, popularity, or mechanics, who would it be?

[Titus]

Btw Titus, what does Housefly mean when you used it?

Housefly? I don't recall this. Context?

[Titus]

Same thing in 2272 looks like, I literally just don't ask as many questions as I used to

As many I would buy

You’re at 0 unless I missed one

Math, would you join me on Wallflower?

If you determined an anti-lim pool of five or six players without regard to time, popularity, or mechanics, who would it be?

Why is Wallflower scum? I feel like they’ve been pretty decent.

I don't get the feel they're solving anything. They feel more IIoA to me. Ymmv

[Titus]

Oh that.

That was me being a little blunt by using a metaphor. A housefly isn't going to brute force its way out of a Venus Fly Trap. It has to use finesse.

Math is trying to use brute force to persuade usually and it doesn't work here. He views coordination as his views being dominant because of how he perceives the world. He's not ready to have a conversation about how his mindset rubs people wrong on this site.

He prefers to think that it's the site viewing him negatively instead, which is his loss.

[Titus]

It's frustrating because there needs to a middle ground between ignore math and 10 pages of why you're wrong when you're just getting thoughts down or discussing with other people.

It's like trying to watch an interactive, collaborative movie and someone keeps trying to change the script, pause it to analyze over and over or rush the ending when we're needing to go somewhere else to understand the story.

[Titus]

if we flip hem then the source of the disagreement goes away and math can focus on playing the game again

But Math never was playing before and isn't now. I see no drive from him to get scum eliminated. I see no efforts to persuade. I see no targeted questions. I see bickerings with HQ and Implosion but what assurances do we have Math will play since we didn't even get that until we ran him up? With an all town wagon?

[Titus]

If you think we can get more from him, then I'm fine with letting him go, but I'd rather go to wallflower. HEM is ok for VCA but I just feel better about Wallflower flipping scum.

[Titus]

You are the top poster. You're definitely not lurking either.

I have trouble seeing you "playing" when you can't put together a townblock of people you wouldn't eliminate. Maybe the word choice is bad but it feels more like you're seeking to win arguments than see people's thought processes and orchestrate theories of the game.

[Titus]

he has trouble thinking straight when he is aggravated and not getting his way. i think he'll be fine after hem flips.

I'm not looking for thinking straight.

I'm looking for theories in a manageable number of posts and for Math to be judicious with the posts he does make. There's no reason he needed to triple post other than the fact he's rushing. He's going too fast and responding to the literal text rather than the intent. Sometimes the right words are hard on an individual level but right on a context level.

With fewer posts, each of his posts gets more attention because it doesn't take fifteen posts to get at his points.

@Roden and @Ari, I think an ISO of HEM's read of Math is in order.

[Titus]

Despite this, he tried to take his town read back on Math recently even though he had him as lock town earlier, and should be considered town if scum are hunting for PRs like he claimed. What I think is really going on is that he realized his logic was inherently flawed and that he needs to anti-spew his "read" on Math in case he gets elim'd first.

This is the most concerning thing here. Everyone and their brother has said Math is not playing to his usual town meta. Hell even Math doesn't dispute it. Yet HEM has Math as town.

In all games, if Math is trying to take the town towards HIS direction - Math town
If Math is trying to let the town do what they want and pander to existing talking points - Math scum

Ill die by this read

This doesn't make sense for HEM to be confident and waffle if he feels Math's meta is so clear.

[Titus]

I could see it as S v S. I also am rather pessimistic about building another wagon on Math but at the same time forcing a lim on Math isn't a hill I want to die on since HEM is also scummy. I don't want to vote HEM though because Math compromised and voted HEM and I've never seen town!Math do that so easily.

[Titus]

I mean it could just be HEM + Math with one of Wallflower, Implosion or [redacted] but I feel like I'm kinda stuck in a spot where I need to flip something.

[Titus]

Ari, if I vote HEM and die tonight, can you consider the possibility of Math scum and being open to limming him if necessary? If Harley and I die quick, I struggle to see who else could lead a Math elimination.

[Titus]

HEM + Math would be convenient and easy

I kinda think Math is town just because there has been such a massive divide on him. I feel like I've been put in this weird spot where I'm a bit of a swing vote, and have had several different people try to convince me of their reads on him.

I don't think so as to the conclusion. I've been explicitly confused on Math and posted a theory on HEM that took traction. You may well be a swing vote, but you're not the only one. This observation is why I included [redacted] as the possible third if HEM and Math are both scum.

Rather, the theory I'm running with is that HEM and Math are both scum so they know a third wagon is pointless. Instead, the goal is to save Math to fight another day and to use HEM's flip and contention to show that Math isn't scum.

This would be why Math is more focused on arguing with players on his wagon and FoSing him rather than sorting.

They want use to devolve into an assumption that scum were pushing Math as a counter to HEM.

That's what I am feeling. Not 100% sure if it's right.

[Titus]

Hey catching up

Anyone wanna give me the main events?

Kinda feeling HEM Asuaka based on the VCs.

On a scale of 1-10 how silly is that?

1 = awesome
10 = OMG you have two ICs

Math's first posts out of the gate

[Titus]

@Math, I'd like an overview of the gamestate from you. Who is your townblock?

[Titus]

i am p sure implo is partnered to hem

That was my theory at first and has never left viability. That is a day 2 question.
If Math is town, what's your worldview?
If Math is scum, what's your worldview?
If Math and HEM are both scum, who could be the third?

[Titus]

i am p sure implo is partnered to hem

That was my theory at first and has never left viability. That is a day 2 question.
If Math is town, what's your worldview?
If Math is scum, what's your worldview?
If Math and HEM are both scum, who could be the third?

Why is implo a day two question but me a d1 question?

When the people you TR are wanting HEM limmed today?

Wouldn’t both or neither of us be a D1 question?

I see your wagon as pure town.
Implo scum is contingent upon HEM. You are scummy individually.

[Titus]

I disagree you're spewed town if Math is red given your stauch math defense.

[Titus]

like for reference look at this game i played with scum mathblade:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351


as soon as he was going down he went straight into antispew

Math doesn't know if he dies here.
Math still is not giving a view of the gamestate but just attacking who shows up. That is antispew. Town!Math either has a theory or does something to get one.

Suppose Math is scum, how does the game look? Who is scum?
If they're both scum, who is the third?

[Titus]

I am kind of at the point it doesn’t matter what I post.

You all have decided to elim me

You all already disregard what opinions I did share.

I think there’s more value in my miselim this point than anything else for town.

I think you need me to flip green to reset reads.

Good luck.

Ari, is this poster scum or town?

[Titus]

Titus why did you not case Wallflower when I asked?

Because I didn't see it. I also don't have a strong case there.

@HEM, Can you please give something even if it's reasonless?

[Titus]

i think ari has been bad faith with her meta and her push on me. she shows no signs of reconsideration even though i engaged her about it.

Go on. Where did this push start?

[Titus]

I am kind of at the point it doesn’t matter what I post.

You all have decided to elim me

You all already disregard what opinions I did share.

I think there’s more value in my miselim this point than anything else for town.

I think you need me to flip green to reset reads.

Good luck.

Ari, is this poster scum or town?

thats scum antispew

And if that tone matched someone in this game, they'd be scum too right? Especially if they were wagoned?

[Titus]

@Math and Ari, That post is not posted by Math earlier in this game.

Assuming that post is scum anti-spew, then a tone match is scummy right?

[Titus]

I am kind of at the point it doesn’t matter what I post.

You all have decided to elim me

You all already disregard what opinions I did share.

I think there’s more value in my miselim this point than anything else for town.

I think you need me to flip green to reset reads.

Good luck.

Ari, is this poster scum or town?

thats scum antispew

And if that tone matched someone in this game, they'd be scum too right? Especially if they were wagoned?

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

Because he feels a scumflip is inevitable right?

[Titus]

Gamma, do you see where I am going? Do you need me to go further in showing my thought process in why I'm no longer conflicted about Math scum?

[Titus]

@Math and Ari, That post is not posted by Math earlier in this game.

Assuming that post is scum anti-spew, then a tone match is scummy right?

I swear I thought that was me this game sorry

I definitely vibe with it

If it’s not me this game I fail to see relevance

i think its you in that micro probly

It is. That is correct.

That represents a huge problem for Math because he thinks his scum posting mirrors this game and that's part of what I was trying to see and show.

[Titus]

titus i just want to elim hem and then implo. i think they both flip scum. and then if enchant is still alive ill probly flip him. i an willing to flip mathblade if the game isnt over atp but i think it will be.

maybe i am just delusional in terms of how much i think im right >.>

No. If we do HEM today, it's Math tmo and then [redacted] possibly to win. Your micro showed me that.

When Math started his "no one will listen" kick, he was wagoned along with HEM.

He gave up when he realized no town lim was possible.

He's done the same here by refusing to give a townblock or give reads.

I have zero idea how you can defend him after seeing that micro post and then adding on his reaction that he thought he made a prior scum game's post in this one.

@Gamma,

You should see my basement. I'm alive by the



Because I

[Titus]

She’s doing that thing she did in the gunsmith game where I had an inno on gamma and the wagon sat on Carca for a while (thanks again Gamma) and she tried to start up wagons here trying to get anyone to join her.

If you think this push was about getting people to join me on you, you're sorely mistaken.

It was to shore up my read on you and see if Ari would defend you if she didn't know it was you.

I got both answered.

My theory is HEM Math Ari.

I'm ready to end the day now.

[Titus]

Gamma, Roden, HQ, StD, I'm here and willing to assist if you need anything (like a breakdown of what happened and what I would have expected). Otherwise, I'm ready to call it. LMK

[Titus]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

[Titus]

Ari, I also think that like. You are just allergic to townreading me on a fundamental level.

thats probly true sorry >.<

hopefully hem flips scum and i get shot and you wont have to deal with my nonsense ^_^

The only way you're getting shot is on n3, by a vig.

[Titus]

I'm going to grab a drink and wait for HQ to catch up. This'll be good.

[Titus]

Well crap. I need sleep. Will read tmo unless insomnia brings me back.

[Titus]

Will shift at L minus 2

[Titus]

Fair. I just couldn't not post that in case I died.

VOTE: HEM

[Titus]

L minus 1 Enchant

[Titus]

Oh cool.

VOTE: Mathblade

Sorry you drew scum.

[Titus]

PR roles remain hidden until we flip another scum.

Then jk/rb out if in play. We can get conftown that way.

If Math is scum here, that's gg for scum I think.

[Titus]

HQ, you're wrong. Math is scum here. His first reaction to me was to suppose I am gambiting rather than confident. Sorry about the EoD. Thought you were ready. I'll get explicit confirmation next time.

[Titus]

I especially dislike how she kept trying to save HEM with trying to work with me to start a wagon on Wallflower. I have a feeling Titus was trying to make me the top wagon without joining anyone actually scum. So I think {Titus,implosion,Dwlee} contains all the remaining scum and my reset yesterday was right.

HEM was hardpushing Dwlee and I think would have joined you on it had a wagon got going. That’s how I think he pocketed you. You sr Dwlee and he jumped on that.

But it is weird to me that Titus doesn’t even consider what no kill means. She said she expected to die, so why does she have no reaction to that?

A no kill means I was shot fmpov until evidence to the contrary.

[Titus]

Enchant, can you stop defending scum?

[Titus]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

[Titus]

Enchant, can you stop defending scum?

I’d appreciate it if you’d stop pushing confTown please

You’re really being sus here and I think this demands an explanation.

My spoilered post yesterday

[Titus]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

Like c’mon Titus
Enchant is saying I am a clear.

That means whoever did the kill was jailkept/roleblocked or scum no killed.

Then Enchant can say that

[Titus]

I don't think we should elim math at all

I think we need to go back and work out why it took 80+ pages to elim scum - that was our leading eagon for most of the day but blimey it took a fuck ton of work to get it there. Anyone trying to elim math today is just putting us back to yesterday and it just isn't good for town.

My scum pool has t changed massively.

We should be back to yesterday

[Titus]

This is stupid. This should be gg.

[Titus]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

Like c’mon Titus
Enchant is saying I am a clear.

That means whoever did the kill was jailkept/roleblocked or scum no killed.

Then Enchant can say that

He did you missed it.

You’re dangerously close to policy elim here.

If you’re town back off and reset

I think you’re scum here.

If you don’t back off and reset it’s exactly the game I had a gunsmith guilty on you.

So fucking reset or you’re probably dying.

Him TR you is not a cop result unless he says so explicitly

[Titus]

We likely get a scum from a jailkeeper/roleblock claim here
Because based on Enchant likely being a cop who checked me
Then roleblock/jailkeep is likely on scum here because it’s probable scum tried to shoot in enchant or Ari.

Enchant would be dead fypov.

Ari doesn't get shot with my post eod.

[Titus]

Math is scum. I was shot.