Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[MathBlade]

Hey catching up

Anyone wanna give me the main events?

[MathBlade]

Kinda feeling HEM Asuaka based on the VCs.

On a scale of 1-10 how silly is that?

1 = awesome
10 = OMG you have two ICs

[MathBlade]

The problem I have with this exercise is that I don't think what I'd pick if I thought about it right now would actually match what I'd pick if I was making the decision with stakes attached

I'm also biased by knowing the results of this draft already and choosing a number after seeing that is inevitably going to affect my choices

@bella, what are your thoughts on this?

??? Why are you asking Bella her thoughts on something pages and pages ago?

[MathBlade]

Why does repping out have anything to do with it?

Why wouldn’t you ask sooner?

[MathBlade]

Hmmm there’s something weird going on with the HEM wagon then

Can you detail some of that Ari?

[MathBlade]

Why does repping out have anything to do with it?

Why wouldn’t you ask sooner?

Because his answer to Ari’s question pinged me slightly and the rep out added to it but I want to know if she thinks there’s anything to that or not.

I don’t follow how you get from Ari’s question to >> Klick post >> Asking Bella about a post.

I don’t see your logical train here

[MathBlade]

what details do you want?

Like the vibes.

The wagon stalls on a person,
Counter wagon A,
Counter wagon B

Like this whole thing seems odd and I wanna sort the monkey.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.06

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Aristeia, Dwlee99, Titus

Dwlee99 [3]:

Ausuka, Save The Dragons, implosion

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Bellaphant

Klick [2]:

Gamma Emerald, Roden

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Enchant, Klick

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ this is a mod note.

flavour

I am running into the issue of if HEM is scum then the majority/all of myself Ari and Dwlee are probably town

If HEM is town this game is likely scum captured to borrow Titus’s phrasing.

[MathBlade]

Ari why the focus on mechanics here?

You seemed annoyed when I bring up probability one prior games.

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

[MathBlade]

also if you look at this chart:




in 13 games, there has always been at least one town player to pick [1]

there are only 6 games where a mafia player picked [1]

what has never happened so far is a mafia player picking [1] uncontested.

When did you make this chart?

[MathBlade]

also if you look at this chart:




in 13 games, there has always been at least one town player to pick [1]

there are only 6 games where a mafia player picked [1]

what has never happened so far is a mafia player picking [1] uncontested.

When did you make this chart?

I did not make this chart, Andante made the chart in a completed PYP game, I am using her link.

Link me please?

I wanna eat some dinner and look at that later tonight and compare it to the mech spec here

[MathBlade]

Hmmm there’s something weird going on with the HEM wagon then

Can you detail some of that Ari?

What makes you say this?

The HEM wagon has been sitting around
Then a couple of other wagons sprang up.

There’s a catalyst for that. If I can find that catalyst the game breaks open.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.06

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Aristeia, Dwlee99, Titus

Dwlee99 [3]:

Ausuka, Save The Dragons, implosion

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Bellaphant

Klick [2]:

Gamma Emerald, Roden

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Enchant, Klick

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ this is a mod note.

flavour

I am running into the issue of if HEM is scum then the majority/all of myself Ari and Dwlee are probably town

If HEM is town this game is likely scum captured to borrow Titus’s phrasing.

So you think Ari + Dwlee are town?

If HEM is scum then yeah they’re probably town
If HEM is town then that doesn’t apply

[MathBlade]

Why say the game is scum captured then?

Because all the wagons are stalled and there isn’t really clarity on the wagons

Having split wagons like this and the original wagon not taking off implies that.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.04

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [4]:

Aristeia, Roden, Dwlee99, Save The Dragons

Aristeia [3]:

humaneatingmonkey, Bellaphant, Ausuka

Enchant [1]:

implosion

Klick [1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [5]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Enchant, Klick, Titus

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

flavour

Beginning of Sunday to now nearly 24 hours later there’s limited to no movement
Just seems to be on counter/vanity wagons yet no one has picked up steam

[MathBlade]

This means we’re either looking at HEM scum or a similar dilemma I had in an HEM scum game in that no one wants to smash on the tail end all at once or a scum capture so I am asking questions to figure out which.

[MathBlade]

messed that up:

24 hours is not a very long time and Sunday/Monday is usually busy for most people.

Actually almost 48

24 hours hours passed this early morning

[MathBlade]

This means we’re either looking at HEM scum or a similar dilemma I had in an HEM scum game in that no one wants to smash on the tail end all at once or a scum capture so I am asking questions to figure out which.

why don't you read my case on him and titus's case on him and his behavior and make a decision based on that then?

I plan on it

I use both.

I have some coding to do then I plan on doing a deep dive

The more questions I ask the more I can compare to the prior game

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

SOP?

Standard Operating Procedure

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

Worth noting rather than answering StD voted me. Interesting.

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

SOP?

Standard Operating Procedure

is mathblade TMIing STD!town in this post?

The answer to that is no.

You’re more than welcome to suggest that though to help sort me.

You’ll find that fundamentally wrong but part of finding scum is suggesting a hypothesis then falsifying it so… *shrug*

[MathBlade]

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

Well in one game I actively tried to alter my writing style. It didn’t work though, people still figured out who I was.

Gamma, Is this helping you solve Harley?

If not I would suggest moving on here. This is treading towards alt outing and I don’t like that.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.07

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Aristeia, Dwlee99, Titus, Save The Dragons, implosion, Roden

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Bellaphant

Dwlee99 [1]:

Ausuka

MathBlade[1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Enchant, MathBlade

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ this is a mod note.

flavour

I am kinda thinking HEM is town or StD is a cross bus.

I am getting StD Aristeia vibes.

I don’t like how StD ignored my question then votes me and then Ari asks if I am spewing StD town. That means she’s paying attention enough to know that StD actively ignored me yet that’s the conclusion she draws? That doesn’t make any sense.

[MathBlade]

I'm getting so much red energy from mathblade

Imagine a tsunami of power emanating from the Greek symbol pi as a giant red wave and I'm holding up a trashcan lid trying to block it but the wave of scum energy is overpowering and I am swept away in its currents watching everyone go by nooooo help me

It's kinda like that

This is superfluous nonsense.

This is saying you scumread me strongly and is very much hyperbole.

Why do you scumread me and why did you (and still are) ignoring my prior question?

[MathBlade]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

Many factors influence my play. Rl, number of games I’m in, interest, investment, etc. In an extremely mech heavy game, I can get totally lost for example. But I still don’t know what you’re referring to if not my activity?

I think Gamma describes what I mean a bit better here:

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

The reason I'm asking is because you seem pretty chill and observant this game. I was curious if it's just something you try to emphasize more on this account, or if you're just in a good head space right now.

I’m not adapting my play to this account and I don’t play the same way every game. I legit hope I never have to ever go through again what I did in HDP. That game was sheer hell for me and I was crying constantly.

Positive focus:

Favorite Harley Quinn moment go!

Oh and your reads please?

[MathBlade]

I'm getting so much red energy from mathblade

Imagine a tsunami of power emanating from the Greek symbol pi as a giant red wave and I'm holding up a trashcan lid trying to block it but the wave of scum energy is overpowering and I am swept away in its currents watching everyone go by nooooo help me

It's kinda like that

This is superfluous nonsense.

This is saying you scumread me strongly and is very much hyperbole.

Why do you scumread me and why did you (and still are) ignoring my prior question?

How many times have you smoked me as scum

Enough.

My scum games blur together. I don’t remember each game we’ve had I can think of a few.

[MathBlade]

I got familiarized with Math's scumgame last time. I'm going to watch if I get red energy from him too

Go for it.

I understand devices take time to calibrate but you’ll find my energy pretty silent this game.

[MathBlade]

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

Well in one game I actively tried to alter my writing style. It didn’t work though, people still figured out who I was.

Gamma, Is this helping you solve Harley?

If not I would suggest moving on here. This is treading towards alt outing and I don’t like that.

I don’t really see that at all?

I guess it’s maybe because I would rather keep things in game and I know who you are iirc having played with you before and I’ve seen people lose alts that way.

[MathBlade]

Can you just link two for me

I am on my phone give me a few minutes

[MathBlade]

Can you just link two for me

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... start=2250

Here’s one I came in on ELO and crushed it replacing House.
Getting another for you.

[MathBlade]

I can’t find the other game I am thinking of on my phone right now, but I think it was a Mastina game.

[MathBlade]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

Many factors influence my play. Rl, number of games I’m in, interest, investment, etc. In an extremely mech heavy game, I can get totally lost for example. But I still don’t know what you’re referring to if not my activity?

I think Gamma describes what I mean a bit better here:

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

The reason I'm asking is because you seem pretty chill and observant this game. I was curious if it's just something you try to emphasize more on this account, or if you're just in a good head space right now.

I’m not adapting my play to this account and I don’t play the same way every game. I legit hope I never have to ever go through again what I did in HDP. That game was sheer hell for me and I was crying constantly.

Positive focus:

Favorite Harley Quinn moment go!

Oh and your reads please?

Not sure I even have one yet.

I give reads as they come. Why are you sr STD?

He doesn’t want to explain reads and rather voted me instead.

It’s a good sign someone is faking reads if they won’t answer open ended questions.

[MathBlade]

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

Well in one game I actively tried to alter my writing style. It didn’t work though, people still figured out who I was.

Gamma, Is this helping you solve Harley?

If not I would suggest moving on here. This is treading towards alt outing and I don’t like that.

I don’t really see that at all?

I guess it’s maybe because I would rather keep things in game and I know who you are iirc having played with you before and I’ve seen people lose alts that way.

Yeah but I don’t see why you think anything Gamma said even borders on trying to out me.

Not all alt outing is intentional.

It’s more why I asked Gamma if they needed that to sort you.

I’ve had plenty an alt burnt by well meaning people so I defend against that.

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

Here.
If STD had real reads on Ari/Dwlee/HQ he’d be able to attempt to quantify it.

Instead it looks like his plan is to just be annoying.

[MathBlade]

@Math, how and where is STD faking reads? Can you link/quote where you think he’s doing that? I still don’t see how anything Gamma posted pur me at the slightest risk of being outed.

The prior post is an answer to the faking reads

It was the general vibe. Gamma’s pinged me as more of bridging that line I’d rather not cross because it requires you to reference your main.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade has to go for the discredit with calling me annoying

Except it’s not a discredit. You are being annoying even if you are right (which you’re not).

You’re still not giving any sort of depth to your posts. You’re just saying “like and dislike”

What about Ari’s posts did you like?

[MathBlade]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

I kinda think this one is more asking how she’s using this account. It’s more talking about this account versus her main. Mainly I kinda want it to be her choice if she outs it.

[MathBlade]

That she's attacking you

This doesn’t follow.

Her recent posting regarding HQ and Dwlee by definition isn’t attacking me?

Like what?

[MathBlade]

@Math, how and where is STD faking reads? Can you link/quote where you think he’s doing that? I still don’t see how anything Gamma posted pur me at the slightest risk of being outed.

The prior post is an answer to the faking reads

It was the general vibe. Gamma’s pinged me as more of bridging that line I’d rather not cross because it requires you to reference your main.

Gamma knows her main

Oh rip.

Yay papa bear protective alt mode disengaged

Sorry

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

Here.
If STD had real reads on Ari/Dwlee/HQ he’d be able to attempt to quantify it.

Instead it looks like his plan is to just be annoying.

Saying he has “bad vibes” from you isn’t fake. If you want to argue that’s nowhere close to an actual case, then I’d agree with you but saying he’s doing this to be “annoying”, I really don’t understand. I think you’re annoyed he’s sr you.

I disagree StD town usually is different.

Lemme get you a sample give me a minute

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13083404

Same game I linked before this is STD’s ISO

Yes it’s lots of short choppy posts but most of them progress the game in some way or comment on the gamestate as a whole

Eg (I reread the game and came up with shit, lots of why questions)

From what I have seen so far it’s more “x is town. Y is scum. Z is heartburn”

It’s all non progressive

[MathBlade]

That makes me think I touched on a nerve asking StD a simple question of why and his vote is an absolute overreactio

Call this OMGUS if you want but

VOTE: Std

Let’s go!!!

[MathBlade]

I think Math offering narratives that arent overtly what town wants to do like wagon town (me) makes me think math is town here

It’s more I am exploring I haven’t concluded one way or another on you

Let’s assume you’re town

Who is scum on your wagon? Just based on what you’ve read please if you’re town. I don’t want some half assed “but I haven’t read page 37” yet or some BS

If you had to pick who?

[MathBlade]

If I could gladiate mathblade right now I would

As the red wave of doom tries to envelop me in darkness I jump up into my starship and press shields to maximum power as I launch myself towards a giant red planet with a pi symbol on it pew pew pew

Oddly enough I think I’d be okay with that I think.

[MathBlade]

Actually nope

Std is town

I am an idiot

VOTE: Unvote

No I will not say what changed my mind

[MathBlade]

I think Math offering narratives that arent overtly what town wants to do like wagon town (me) makes me think math is town here

In all games, if Math is trying to take the town towards HIS direction - Math town
If Math is trying to let the town do what they want and pander to existing talking points - Math scum

Ill die by this read

That’s not ai for Math, he did that in Heroes’ Wanted too.

Do you have any opinion on his STD push?

Heroes wanted was more both. The point is valid HQ is making as it’s not so black and white as HEM paints but HEM tends to be valid more in principle

It’s more a matter of if HEM is town and is accurately reading me or if he’s just trying to pander

[MathBlade]

I think Math offering narratives that arent overtly what town wants to do like wagon town (me) makes me think math is town here

It’s more I am exploring I haven’t concluded one way or another on you

Let’s assume you’re town

Who is scum on your wagon? Just based on what you’ve read please if you’re town. I don’t want some half assed “but I haven’t read page 37” yet or some BS

If you had to pick who?

Okay then youre gonna have to wait a bit

Uhm why?

[MathBlade]

Im present so I can be asked questions. I really cant conclude anything right now other than react to the present

???

Wouldn’t giving your best guess be a reaction?

It’s not like it’s set in stone

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.07

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [3]:

Aristeia, Dwlee99, Titus, Save The Dragons, implosion, Roden

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Bellaphant

Dwlee99 [1]:

Ausuka

MathBlade[1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Enchant, MathBlade

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ this is a mod note.

flavour

Fair enough

Didn’t realize you were in the hospital. Feel better dude.

There’s a semi recent VC just move StD onto me

[MathBlade]

Std moved to me and I voted std then unvoted

So I think that’s the only difference but I am kinda multitasking atm trying to find the ice cream

[MathBlade]

I'm not against a hem wagon but I would like more contribution from at least Mala, Titus, Klick, and Enchant, who each have 3 posts total, before day end. Have people played with Enchant in games where he does this (i.e. posts no content whatsoever) as town? I think the only game off the top of my head where I saw Enchant-town was a replace-in, so may be different meta, but he was actually participating.

I want to see where your head’s at now that we have some activity

[MathBlade]

I have a cool thought experiment I want to try.

Let's all write down which three numbers we would submit if we were running a scum team.

I will explain after everyone writes down their numbers how this will help us.

I will go first.

1, 3, 13

I would say this depends on the scum team.

I would see what the strengths/weaknesses of each player were and fill in the gap.

For example, if scum were good at day play, I might go high numbers for them and we find the PRs together and we put one person on the low end

If scum were bad at day play I might aim more towards the mid tier for most

I would only go mostly high if scum were unknowns

I am unsure if this helps you at all because I wasn’t in the game when this was done

If I was town and started I probably would have picked 6/17 as that’s TDay

[MathBlade]

Actually nope

Std is town

I am an idiot

VOTE: Unvote

No I will not say what changed my mind

If I could gladiate mathblade right now I would

As the red wave of doom tries to envelop me in darkness I jump up into my starship and press shields to maximum power as I launch myself towards a giant red planet with a pi symbol on it pew pew pew

This?

As I said I realized I was an idiot and won’t say what changed my mind

I acknowledge your post but won’t answer it

[MathBlade]

I'm townbinning everyone with a number above 100

we are masons as far as I am concerned.

if this turns out to be tragically wrong later it's not my fault

I agree titus probably town, less convinced about anyone else in that set

I want to see more from her but imho this is more scum indicative or NAI than town

Titus has been hella busy. I think whatever her alignment she’d want the vanilla version to avoid possibly screwing over whatever team she is on.

[MathBlade]

I am curious why Mala and Aristeia both have large powers of 2 (really it's quite impressive that 9/14 players submitted some power of 2 but almost certainly not meaningful)

I will give a free townread to anyone who can figure out why I picked my number ^_^

2 ^ 9 can be rearranged to 2 ^ 3 ^ 2 which can look like a flirt to Datisi?

[MathBlade]

Math catching up makes me confident to say thats hes town or at least hes doing this because he recognizes that ill spot if hes doing the same shtick he did from our last game

What shtick did he do in your last game?

Lemme just get you the game

That’d be easier.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89313

Here you go HQ.

I was more laid back because most of active town blew itself up that game. There was a point when Jackson fake claimed a guilty on HEM but then backed off which luckily defused the wagon or town probably would have won.

[MathBlade]

I gotta go again but will catch up more later.

I need to find the key events

I feel I am missing something solid here

[MathBlade]

Getting bad vibes from mathblade

Slight heartburn from ari

Good vibes from dwlee and HQ

Interesting. Why on the others?

For the me I am going to assume that’s SOP considering how many times I have smoked you as scum before.

SOP?

Standard Operating Procedure

is mathblade TMIing STD!town in this post?

The answer to that is no.

You’re more than welcome to suggest that though to help sort me.

You’ll find that fundamentally wrong but part of finding scum is suggesting a hypothesis then falsifying it so… *shrug*

That would be very very abnormal for you. What's your angle?

It’s not. I use the “Assume I am scum …” etc phrasing a lot.

I think StD if town will see me as town. It’s a matter of time

[MathBlade]

I'm townbinning everyone with a number above 100

we are masons as far as I am concerned.

if this turns out to be tragically wrong later it's not my fault

I agree titus probably town, less convinced about anyone else in that set

I want to see more from her but imho this is more scum indicative or NAI than town

Titus has been hella busy. I think whatever her alignment she’d want the vanilla version to avoid possibly screwing over whatever team she is on.

How do you read Titus’ play rn?

I am not sure.

The fact she hasn’t instantly hit my scum dar means something but last game I knew you were town so I knew Titus’s push was bad and could leverage that so it gave me a distinct advantage to read her. Between that and the hood she was obvious.

Her alignment here isn’t obvious yet.

[MathBlade]

@Math, it's the false hypothesis comment that irks me

That’s literally how science works.

You build a hypothesis and test it.

StD has a hypothesis I am scum.

I know it’s false but unless I allow him to test it then it becomes extremely antitown.

I build hypothesis and test them.

My StD hypothesis was falsified so I think StD is town.

I had a similar hypothesis with you when I was gunsmith.

[MathBlade]

Meh changing it up

HEM Implosion Mala/Roden...... then maybe Math.

That last Implosion post fished 6 alternative wagons to HEM while claiming to be ok with an HEM wagon.

I kinda don’t think HEM is scum.

I am not sure how to explain it though so let’s go with gut.

[MathBlade]

An unordered smattering of thoughts.

1) The more time passes, the more I don't really buy that Enchant should be 100% no-holds-barred off the table today. There's no universe in which scum are gonna NK them over e.g. HQ and Gamma, who are 2nd and 3rd in the draft and widely townread. They are Simply Not Playing The Game. They're going to continue not playing the game on future days. And yes, they're a guaranteed PR... which includes as scum. Enchant could be a scum 1-shot vig or 2-shot PGO, among other dangerous roles. Shouldn't whether or not they're a good elimination depend at least a little bit on whether or not they're scummy? And right now they're playing exactly the same game (read: non-game) they played in chromavalon.

2) StD, Aristeia, softly mathblade but don't push me on it because I have no actual reason (and I'm open to hearing arguments from StD but I don't right now see it), and HQ (but not as strongly as some people have been saying) are recently townish.

3) I'm not wed to the hem wagon. But I do like it. I think hem's behavior makes quite a lot of sense as scum; their play feels much more aesthetic than substantive. Asking people what they think of things, but not until recently really starting to take any real stances on their wagon; I think town in hem's position is like, a little caught between a rock and a hard place because no one was biting on the aristeia suspicion. But even so the play around her feels really awkward and almost unmotivated - like he never really had all that much impetus for people to vote for aristeia, just for them to be able to call her scum and to defend themself. Disclaimer in that I didn't really re-read their ISO before typing this so maybe it's bunk but yeah.

4) The reason I'm not wed to the hem wagon is that there's an unusually large number of people that I feel are pretty good potential scum. I see lots of potential in Roden, Dwlee, Enchant to be scum, and there's others who I don't have a bead on like Mala and Bellaphant and maybe Titus who I wouldn't be opposed to pressuring. But saying the wagon "stalled out" as an L-2 wagon this early in the game feels... wrong.

Wouldn’t you scumread me because I am the one who said it stalled out?

[MathBlade]

1) The more time passes, the more I don't really buy that Enchant should be 100% no-holds-barred off the table today. There's no universe in which scum are gonna NK them over e.g. HQ and Gamma, who are 2nd and 3rd in the draft and widely townread. They are Simply Not Playing The Game. They're going to continue not playing the game on future days. And yes, they're a guaranteed PR... which includes as scum. Enchant could be a scum 1-shot vig or 2-shot PGO, among other dangerous roles. Shouldn't whether or not they're a good elimination depend at least a little bit on whether or not they're scummy? And right now they're playing exactly the same game (read: non-game) they played in chromavalon.

the way I think about Enchant is as follows[do not respond to this in any way that outs your role pls]

Even if Enchant is scum, they should be Ascetic Cop because denying town the most powerful TPR is much stronger than gaining an extra kill via say 1 shot vig imo.

Let's say in both worlds Enchant is an Ascetic Cop because it is the strongest TPR [this is an assumption]

Scum are obligated to kill Enchant rather than let Enchant get a bunch of results. If scum leave him alive for 2 nights and we paranoia lim him on day 3, he will out 2 results which is basically like giving us 2 masons or better if he finds scum.

as for PGO being a threat - um I don't really think it makes any sense for any town role to target enchant ever - if they r scum, they will be outted by the virtue of not dying. If they are town, um whats the point of targetting them?

I do agree he is quite scummy by not playing but I've seen him not play as town b4 so it's kind of like ~shrug~. If he's scum he will get outted anyway by virtue of living too long.

This argument doesn’t sit right with me. I think it’s wrong, but I think it’s antitown to correct this assumption.

[MathBlade]

I am okay with an HEM wagon and am in fact on the wagon

You seem ready to jump ship the moment someone else starts getting pressured though.

I could see HEM + Implosion if I am wrong on HEM I don’t think i am though.

[MathBlade]

okay, in any case, i'll be absent from here on and only appearing to and for

watch my wagon. that's a wagon on town. if people push for it aggressively without trying to parse more info from me, that means it's scum-motivated. i haven't read the game beyond the posts i didn't make today.

Gosh golly this is a bad post. Town does not say "This future behavior: if this is what you see in the future, push the people who do it" because scum will just... not do that if they genuinely think it's going to get them caught.

I also want to reiterate this point because no one's mentioned it and I was genuinely surprised that no one else called this post scummy while I was rereading.

I am wanting to see if something develops here. Something is off.

[MathBlade]

I think picking ascetic cop is much stronger than picking a jailkeeper/roleblocker type role because ascetic cop can't be blocked in the first place and by picking it you are essentially permanently blocking the cop.

Absolutely.

Mafia players don't always play optimally.

Again, this isn't really

important

, I'm just annoyed that we're basically Contractually Obligated to let Enchant not-play-the-game for 2-3 days.

We’re not.

I think Ari’s logic is flawed, but the damage of outing PRs here would likely be high if I corrected her

So as flawed as I think it is, I think it’s more protown to let her logic go.

[MathBlade]

I also don’t think her mistake is scum oriented or if it is she’s damn good at hiding it

[MathBlade]

So as flawed as I think it is, I think it’s more protown to let her logic go.

Who are you and what have you done w Mathblade?

*pokes me*

Yep still me

Hi stranger

[MathBlade]

Okay I think I found a way to correct Ari that doesn’t impact PRs

Let’s assume that Enchant as scum picks ascetic cop. It’s more likely that Enchant would just be flat out bulletproof in that case. It would remove the cop from play if I understand the setup. He would then openly claim ascetic cop. Another alternative is because scum picked informed that they know a role pair not in play (assuming there is a pair not in play as I have reason to believe this is the case) so this suggestion from Ari seems more useless noise than helpful.

[MathBlade]

Let’s assume that Enchant as scum picks ascetic cop. It’s more likely that Enchant would just be flat out bulletproof in that case. It would remove the cop from play if I understand the setup. He would then openly claim ascetic cop. Another alternative is because scum picked informed that they know a role pair not in play (assuming there is a pair not in play as I have reason to believe this is the case) so this suggestion from Ari seems more useless noise than helpful.

I do not care if he picks bulletproof or ascetic cop

I will policy him if he is alive on day 3

Premise 1) Assume scum shoot in the lower sections like you’re hypothesizing
Premise 2) Assume we elim in the lower half like you’re hypothesizing
Premise 3) Assume this mixture is repeated until the lower half is no more

What makes Enchant different from others on the list then that are policy?

[MathBlade]

I agree in not elimming him here especially as he might get replaced

I just find your logic artificial and stilted

[MathBlade]

What makes Enchant better than say Bellaphant who generally has a town MO?

I am more trying to figure out where the line exists for your arbitrary policy elim here.

[MathBlade]

I kinda feel like if you’re scum you’re arguing from a scum vig Enchant cop / bulletproof gambit and I can’t quite get inside your head to see if my paranoia is right

[MathBlade]

Like at best you’re coaching the scum team here openly in thread here

This just doesn’t sit right with me

[MathBlade]

I have no idea what you're talking about I think my logic is incredibly clear.

Let me try asking this another way:

Let’s assume for a moment scum or a vig kill Enchant N1 and he flips something other then cop/BP.

Does your logic apply for Asuaka D3 or Bellaphant?

Both of these two seem inactive (compared to when I replaced in).

Do they become new “policy” elims? It feels arbitrary.

[MathBlade]

If your answer is yes, then your argument doesn’t apply to Enchant specifically and I want to hear about why you’re specifically applying it to Enchant only now.

If your answer is no, then I need to see why it only applies to Enchant only.

[MathBlade]

my logic applies only for the person who is pick number one

Then it’s flawed imho.

Because Enchant if town would know he’d be prime NK bait and leave cop for lower down.

And you’re welcome to call me an idiot later if you like but maybe it might generate wifom if I am so win win

[MathBlade]

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

Yes

Last game

I said scum were bussing at 80% odds and you kept saying no and Andres was bussing

[MathBlade]

Happy Cake day Mala.

Math, we aren't doing mechanics debates again.

HEM by play please

Good night.

Cool HEM is a no go by day play

The people I want by town play right now are TRd so *shrug*

[MathBlade]

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

Yes

Last game

I said scum were bussing at 80% odds and you kept saying no and Andres was bussing

this is not mech

It is to me.

Starting from concrete facts/probabilities and working down is mech

[MathBlade]

People want to kill Enchant today - but this doesn't make sense because if Enchant is town, the mafia should solve his slot for us via NK.

This

I agree Enchant is a good no elim today candidate

I also think if I am right on scum (getting to your reads list request Titus)
Scum don’t shoot in the upper tiers if I am right

[MathBlade]

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

Yes

Last game

I said scum were bussing at 80% odds and you kept saying no and Andres was bussing

this is not mech

It is to me.

Starting from concrete facts/probabilities and working down is mech

mech involves roles and roleclaims.

deciding whether a player bussed or did not bus is VCA, wagonomics and dayplay analysis

this is a basic definition.

Agree to disagree and move on

I have 0 interest in quibbling over definitions.

Anything over 80% likelihood is almost certainly true like traditional mech unless evidence asserts otherwise so it’s all mech to me

[MathBlade]

implosion << Major scum pings
Harley Quinn << Town lean okay for today but I will reevaluate as (redacted to avoid saying something I shouldn’t regarding her main)
Gamma Emerald << Town I think? More active than most scum games
Malakittens << No read yet sorry
Roden << Town for now also has capability to deep wolf
Enchant << no day reads, if scum it’s with Ari. This postulating doesn’t feel right
Dwlee99 << No read yet
humaneatingmonkey << I think he’s town but I can’t explain why
Bellaphant << More active as town when I remember her so scum lean could have changed since we haven’t played together in a while.
Ausuka << No read yet
Me << Towniest town to ever town
Aristeia << A majority of your posts ping me as town but there’s this mechanics talk that’s pinging me so hard
Save The Dragons << Town unless it’s Std + Enchant + 1 deep wolf maybe Ari
Titus << Town who thinks I am confused or scum panicking I am right on something

[MathBlade]

The main issue I have with your hypothesis is that it assumes Enchant always picks that slot

I find that assumption incorrect.

[MathBlade]

It feels like either you know Enchant did or know no one did.

It’s too certain

[MathBlade]

convince one person your mech interpretation is right and my mech interpretation is wrong and I will continue this conversation with you. Otherwise I am just going to assume you are wrong and wasting my time.

I think 90% of the game legit doesn’t care.

I know you’re starting from a faulty premise and stated it.

As did someone else who mentioned the word optimally

So someone else already did

You just aren’t in the mood to listen

[MathBlade]

I think picking ascetic cop is much stronger than picking a jailkeeper/roleblocker type role because ascetic cop can't be blocked in the first place and by picking it you are essentially permanently blocking the cop.

Absolutely.

Mafia players don't always play optimally.

Again, this isn't really

important

, I'm just annoyed that we're basically Contractually Obligated to let Enchant not-play-the-game for 2-3 days.

Don’t get me wrong, Implosion gives me scum pings

But you’ve already been told off by me and implosion

So *shrug*

Who do you scumread besides HEM?

[MathBlade]

I don’t want to flip enchant today.

I also think you’re full of shit

Both things are true.

And yes I made up shit in those games but that’s because I had to.

Here it’s just painfully obvious you’re starting on faulty premises.

[MathBlade]

what are you even arguing with me for

do you want to kill enchant today?

I am arguing with you for wifom reasons (assuming Enchant is town)

1) If you’re right and scum agrees and Enchant is the town cop bad for us
2) If you’re right and scum agrees and Enchant is not the town cop and scum shoot there good for us
3) If I am right and scum agrees and Enchant is the town cop hood for us as we get a check
4) If I am right and scum agrees and Enchant is not the cop then we buy time for him to do what he does

Funneling the scum kill to Enchant when he could be a top tier PR is bad

If Enchant is scum this is all fundamentally a waste of time

So for the sake of town you’re wrong

[MathBlade]

1) If you’re right and scum agrees and Enchant is the town cop bad for us

if enchant is town cop he is getting shot today period

And I disagree

You said this is fruitless unless I convinced someone else

Why are you poking this repeatedly?

[MathBlade]

you think scum me is trying to get my scum team to shoot enchant!town cop by

talking about it in the thread

and therefore I'm bad?

like what even is your reasoning here?

I am saying in the case you’re scum Enchant is town then it’s spam to avoid reads as you’ve made up your mind you’re shooting there.
In the case you’re scum and Enchant is scum you’re setting up a gambit.
In the case you’re town and Enchant is scum then you accomplish nothing with this mechanics shenanigans as Enchant doesn’t have a single vote on them
In the case you’re town and Enchant is town then this is just begging scum to shoot Enchant

Nothing good comes from this

[MathBlade]

I don't think Enchant-Town should auto-pick ascetic cop 100% of the time... because if town was supposed to do that they'd essentially be denying the existence of ascetic cop because scum would just shoot the ascetic cop in 100% of games. The "optimal" play for town is some kind of mixed strategy where they pick it sometimes.

I think this is all wholly irrelevant because frankly treating Enchant like a player who is going to play with a focus on optimizing the probability that they will win... is inane. They autoquickhammer anyone at E-1. That's not the kind of player who's going to auto-pick ascetic cop as scum to deny it. It's also not the kind of player who's going to always pick ascetic cop as town because they think it's the Correct Play. I agree in broad strokes with what Aristeia is saying but they do have an assumption (which to her credit, she is explicit about):

Let's say in both worlds Enchant is an Ascetic Cop because it is the strongest TPR [this is an assumption]

which is, frankly, simply incorrect because Enchant isn't that kind of player.

I'm not strongly interested in continuing discussion along these lines; I'd rather hear from Math why he thinks I'm pinging as scum.

Look here’s Implosion correcting you again.

Like ???

Let me guess this isn’t a “correction”.

[MathBlade]

In short you’re the only player making sense and the only one besides me considering HEM town

Towns tend to tunnel on D1 and you waffling and such gives me pause.

It’s like you aren’t really deciding on much.

[MathBlade]

like what even is your goal here?

do you think I'm scum?

do you think I'm bad!town?

are you trying to win an argument that has no purpose ?

I think it’s A or B and I was trying to ascertain which.

I realized that was fruitless so I tried to protect possible TPRs

I don’t ever “win” discussions with you ever

They always end without you even trying to understand when I do one sentence this premise is wrong posts.

So I just tried to stop the argument and you decide to poke it again

[MathBlade]

if you can find a single town game i have ever played where i tunneled on d1 then i will let you control my vote for today.
(not actually but)

That was “Towns” meaning the collective

I don’t know enough of your meta as I don’t think we’ve played together recently and if we have I don’t remember.

[MathBlade]

like what even is your goal here?

do you think I'm scum?

do you think I'm bad!town?

are you trying to win an argument that has no purpose ?

I think it’s A or B and I was trying to ascertain which.

I realized that was fruitless so I tried to protect possible TPRs

I don’t ever “win” discussions with you ever

They always end without you even trying to understand when I do one sentence this premise is wrong posts.

So I just tried to stop the argument and you decide to poke it again

You think you can protect Enchant!TPR from the Mafia Nightkill by arguing with me in the thread

r u serious?

Scum are manipulatable just as much as town can be.

I may not know who they are but if you are I can find a way to manipulate you

And if you aren’t then I can use this conversation to manipulate scum.

[MathBlade]

In short implosion you are one of my few scum pings but it isn’t to the level of a vote yet.

[MathBlade]

Scum are manipulatable just as much as town can be.

I may not know who they are but if you are I can find a way to manipulate you

And if you aren’t then I can use this conversation to manipulate scum.

ok so your official explanation for arguing mech with me is to manipulate the scum team into not shooting enchant ok cool

good luck with that.

So reads besides HEM and me?

[MathBlade]

if you can find a single town game i have ever played where i tunneled on d1 then i will let you control my vote for today.
(not actually but)

That was “Towns” meaning the collective

I don’t know enough of your meta as I don’t think we’ve played together recently and if we have I don’t remember.

So Towns, Collectively on d1, have a tendency to Tunnel, and I am Not Tunneling, therefore I must not be in the town?????

In short implosion you are one of my few scum pings but it isn’t to the level of a vote yet.

"one of my few" - who are the others? It looks like it's just me and maybe Bellaphant?

Correct

Since I don’t know your meta I use the general collective and it seems off

I am weaker with social reads so it’s difficult to explain.

[MathBlade]

So reads besides HEM and me?

Has Ari stated a scumread on you?

Yep

[MathBlade]

Hi I just wanted to say that the reason I have been inactive since math replaced in is because he replaced in at 1am??? What do you want from me

Also I'm reluctant to talk too much about PRs but I will say I agree with implosion on pretty much everything and also the best way to do mechanics in this setup is to look at what players actually did in previous runs instead of trying to like theoretically predict it imo

I am also thinking town HEM currently, I remember really liking STD's posting, Roden feels bleh to me but it's awkward to push both Roden and Dwlee at the same time because they're probably not scum together

I am confused by people doing associative VCA in the middle of d1 (Titus and mathblade iirc) I assume this is a playstyle thing from how no one else commented on it though, so

Will have more to say later after my exam

Good luck on the exam!

[MathBlade]

Correct

Since I don’t know your meta I use the general collective and it seems off

I am weaker with social reads so it’s difficult to explain.

This is just so deeply foreign to the way I view the game of mafia.

I have no other frame of reference to use

I have no internal barometer to see if emotions are valid
I have no way to read your tone

So the only thing I have is deviations from the norm and see if I like the explanation

[MathBlade]

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

[MathBlade]

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

[MathBlade]

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

you've never seen me have wrong reads as town?

Nope. Almost every game I am in if not every you’ve been right on me.

You’ve been annoyed by me sure, but you’ve always properly read me as town annoying.

[MathBlade]

The closest you’ve ever been to “wrong” was the 80% game you mentioned earlier where your town block was right but kept picking wrong in the PoE

[MathBlade]

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

[MathBlade]

Hi I just wanted to say that the reason I have been inactive since math replaced in is because he replaced in at 1am??? What do you want from me

Also I'm reluctant to talk too much about PRs but I will say I agree with implosion on pretty much everything and also the best way to do mechanics in this setup is to look at what players actually did in previous runs instead of trying to like theoretically predict it imo

I am also thinking town HEM currently, I remember really liking STD's posting, Roden feels bleh to me but it's awkward to push both Roden and Dwlee at the same time because they're probably not scum together

I am confused by people doing associative VCA in the middle of d1 (Titus and mathblade iirc) I assume this is a playstyle thing from how no one else commented on it though, so

Will have more to say later after my exam

Good luck on the exam!

Thanks! It's a maths exam, seems like it would be your forte, unfortunately it's not mine

Math is just a language.

Moon logic worlds
Std/Ausuaka/Ari

Std/Enchant/Ari

Day play worlds
Asuaka/Enchant/Bellaphant

Asuaka/Ari/Bellaphant

Some mix thereof broad spec

Yes Asuaka you have a scum ping because you’re nice because people aren’t usually nice

[MathBlade]

Once you remove the stigma of it being complicated people can pick it up easier

It takes time but math isn’t magic and I am sorry that stigma exists

[MathBlade]

But good luck on the exam!

[MathBlade]

I feel stronger about HEM flipping scum and if HEM flips town your scum equity goes down by a lot so it makes literally no sense for me to try to flip you today.

Cool.

I’d be very very surprised if HEM flips wolf here

Dude is extremely good at destroying his wagons

Eerily good.

Like I

really

doubt he’s scum.

[MathBlade]

Like to the point I would fake claim masons if it was possible level of sureity he’s town.

[MathBlade]

I know that discussing almost anything with you or Titus if you’re scum is fruitless

You’re already twisting something we’ve agree to let lie what 4 , 5 times now?

You’re not in a mood to listen so discussing with you is pointless right now.

And too bad implosion I just am.

[MathBlade]

have you even read my case on him?

Skimmed it

Was going to go in-depth on lunch break.

To be quite frank that long a case on D1 is suspicious.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

Yeah idk I've been doing it for the past 2 years and tried really hard to get it, I wouldn't even say I'm terrible at it but it would definitely take a lot more time than I have at my current education level to understand it, if that makes sense. My brain probably isn't wired for maths very much although I do believe anyone is capable of doing anything with lots of effort

Game related discussion, if we were going to BOP Ari it would make more sense to do it on HEM probably, I'm just really not convinced she can't get into TvTs as town

I'm a bit surprised by some people you didn't mention in your associative spec tbh. Gun to your head, Dwlee or Roden is a wolf, which one is it?

Pedit: Strongly agree with implosion here tbh, it's only been like three days since the game started

Also I should probably like actually do revision now but I will be back later

Gun to my head Roden. But like 51/49 margin.

[MathBlade]

I'm not saying I can't be wrong.

I think I'm right.

I have all these reasons why I think I'm right.

If you have a better lead somewhere else then make the case.

if you think my case is wrong because of _____ reason then state the reason.

but like you coming and going HEM is town because "gut" literally is meaningless to me.

And doing that with scum you (or town you who has demonstrated that you don’t want to listen) tonight is just going to create more bloat.

Good night

[MathBlade]

I feel stronger about HEM flipping scum and if HEM flips town your scum equity goes down by a lot so it makes literally no sense for me to try to flip you today.

I kinda disagree with this. Nobody joined Gamma and me on Klick's wagon when HEM started gaining momentum, if scum wanted to save HEM they would just make Klick a counter wagon. Imo scum is either fine with the HEM wagon, or didn't want to endorse a Klick counter wagon because then it would be SvS.

That’s my point

Instead there’s three wagons (or were when I repped in)

That’s indicative of something just not sure what

[MathBlade]

Tbh I also very strongly think there is almost no way that a gamestate-wide statement like "there's three wagons right now" can mean anything in any game of mafia - certainly it can mean something with the benefit of hindsight, but I am confident that you will never be able to correctly state some high-level reason about who is scum based just on the fact that "there's 3 wagons" with any accuracy whatsoever.

And I am not saying who is scum from it.

What you pitched is possible, but it’s not likely.

In the game (I think I linked) HEM was in a mirror scenario, player was scum with inactive scum Andres and I forget who I replaced and HEM was wagoned iirc.

Same scenario different wagons happen

So then either scum likely have an active member if HEM is scum,
But then why the wagons as they are?

It just doesn’t add up

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13336647

This is the VoteCount where HEM was wagoned D1 I had just gotten into the game ish

It just doesn’t match what I would expect

[MathBlade]

So then either scum likely have an active member if HEM is scum,
But then why the wagons as they are?

It just doesn’t add up

I mean.

This adds up perfectly if Ari's scumteam call is exactly correct. You're an active scum, the wagons are as they are because you're trying to fight the HEM wagon and not gaining ground.

But I happen to know it’s not as I am town.

Imagine for a moment I am town. Before I came in we were in the same positions before I was posting.

Your argument fails there.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

I am not using BoP. If I am sure enough that I'm willing to BoP my life on it, I will say so.

Me and mathblade have played a total of four games together. (2 TvT and 2 TvS)

in two of them he was scum who was making up mech nonsense - mini 2226 and micro 1053

in one of them he rep'd into a mason slot and claimed mason

in the other one of them he rep'd into an mech confirmed investigated innocent slot that was force replaced because previous player decided to try to use unfair means to townspew himself.

At no point have I ever had to actually read for Town!Mathblade, so his thing about me getting his alignment correct is just nonsensical.

It is for this account. I can’t refute this without alt outing you.

So yes, this is technically correct, but spiritually a lie.

This is why I really dislike arguing with scum!you/not listening you.

[MathBlade]

To be clear I don't agree with the premise of "HEM-scum means there must be an active scum". I have no idea why that is necessarily true, or even why it'd be particularly likely. It sounds like you're just basing it on one anecdote?

I am basing it on knowing scum HEM.

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

This didn’t happen.

You have a recent scum game where I replaced in with HEM and what I did and can observe

Yes it’s one game but it’s like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole

It just doesn’t fit

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

I really don’t get that vibe.

I feel like she had an agenda of spewing the mechanical things for a reason. It’s what I do as scum, spin individually factually correct statements. By talking on mech she avoids having to actually play a social game

She’s wrong = heavily disagreeing. There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.
There’s something HEM did that I extremely doubt that the scum team would permit him to do.

She’s like put her buckets in an HEM world I don’t think she wants to consider being wrong.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

I am not using BoP. If I am sure enough that I'm willing to BoP my life on it, I will say so.

Me and mathblade have played a total of four games together. (2 TvT and 2 TvS)

in two of them he was scum who was making up mech nonsense - mini 2226 and micro 1053

in one of them he rep'd into a mason slot and claimed mason

in the other one of them he rep'd into an mech confirmed investigated innocent slot that was force replaced because previous player decided to try to use unfair means to townspew himself.

At no point have I ever had to actually read for Town!Mathblade, so his thing about me getting his alignment correct is just nonsensical.

It is for this account. I can’t refute this without alt outing you.

So yes, this is technically correct, but spiritually a lie.

This is why I really dislike arguing with scum!you/not listening you.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that you two have played together more than just the four games Ari mentioned? If you include other accounts?

I believe this to be the case yes.

However she says those accounts are dead.

I therefore will not refute her statement and will treat this as fact to avoid alt outing her.

[MathBlade]

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

I'm quite confident that there are many, many, many, many, many, many more things that contribute to whether a wagon maintains itself or dissolves than "whether the other scum are active". And I see no reason why "the other scum being active" should be prioritized as an important thing to consider in that dynamic. Even if it is an important part of the dynamic of wagons on scum staying alive or not, they're two different games... one single game where this one player had a wagon that happened to dissipate doesn't mean all games with that player will have the same result if one thing about them is the same. This just seems absurd.

There are but they tend to be side factors

A single active scum wagoned on their own depends on the sheer strength of that scum to get out of it and the strength of the town pushing. Top tier town (yes I am assuming that it’s not all of like Ari Titus + others scum team for this) in this game. Top/mid tier town the other game.

Yes there are people different in each game but there’s not enough difference.

[MathBlade]

To be clear I don't agree with the premise of "HEM-scum means there must be an active scum". I have no idea why that is necessarily true, or even why it'd be particularly likely. It sounds like you're just basing it on one anecdote?

I am basing it on knowing scum HEM.

Put scum HEM in the same instances (inactive scum)

You should get the same conclusion (wagons disappears)

This didn’t happen.

You have a recent scum game where I replaced in with HEM and what I did and can observe

Yes it’s one game but it’s like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole

It just doesn’t fit

so you're saying Scum!HEM can never be wagoned and elimmed day one because he's such a good scum player that it would just never happen hence if a wagon forms on him he must be town?

Pretty much if it succeeds. Yep. He got wagoned D1 as scum in the game I linked but it didn’t pass.

Same with Titus.

Last time she’s been elimmed D1 as scum I don’t remember

There’s just some things that don’t happen.

[MathBlade]

There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.

I think a lot about whether I am wrong actually.

You know, I was chatting with a professor who I've been working with over the past few months at a house party a week ago. We were talking about the double slit experiment and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, because he's working on a thing related to them and I was part of a focus group that talked about that thing. And I think the double slit experiment is fascinating - it absolutely in no way jives with any intuition any person could possibly have. Yet it somehow is the way it is.

I think it's a great way to frame just how easy it is for people to be wrong about things they have perfect confidence in, and I think it's a good lens to see how important it is to inject a healthy dose of humility into the way that we navigate the world.

Why do you think the odds of you being wrong are slim? Are you just, that good at this game?

I think the odds of me being wrong on HEM are due to experience with HEM recently.

Notice my other reads are quite nebulous.

Notice how no one else wants to talk other reads no matter how much I try to bring up other slots

It reeks of desperation trying to keep this elim alive.

I keep trying to build theories of who scum could be but I keep having to come back to defending HEM versus having a clear conversation and being able to hunt.

I don’t get super strong reads but when I do I do and they’ve almost always been right when they are this strong of a townread.

Where I would say I am possibly wrong is Ari being reactionary and town (as I think I have said before)

But I really don’t think I am wrong on HEM town here

[MathBlade]

I can get tunnelled onto a scumread and that’s a flaw I have but I am very very good at defending my TRs.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89392

Take here for example

I had an inno on Gamma and was literally just inventing shit and damn near soft claimed to Titus the inno and she still wouldn’t back off Gamma.

I always defend townreads hard when I have reason to

And here I think a case just doesn’t match up with me playing with HEM scum recently.

[MathBlade]

I would like to officially lodge a formal complaint that I am being (directly or indirectly, and by different people) accused of both desperately trying to keep the HEM lim alive, and of refusing to commit to the HEM wagon in favor of shopping for alternatives

Complaint lodged.

I accept that I am saying both because I think you’re doing both and I think it’s NAI

[MathBlade]

Good night

Someone break my refresh button

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

I really don’t get that vibe.

I feel like she had an agenda of spewing the mechanical things for a reason. It’s what I do as scum, spin individually factually correct statements. By talking on mech she avoids having to actually play a social game

She’s wrong = heavily disagreeing. There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.
There’s something HEM did that I extremely doubt that the scum team would permit him to do.

She’s like put her buckets in an HEM world I don’t think she wants to consider being wrong.

I don't think she's avoiding playing a social game. I get your point about focusing on mechanics = scummy, but her ISO shows her talking about more than just mechanics and interacting with a decent amount of the player list.

Which of her reads do you heavily disagree with besides HEM?

Also what did HEM do that you think the scum team wouldn't permit him to do?

I am not ignoring this. I don’t think it’s smart to answer this at 1 am when I am sleepy and could say something stupid and I should watch my words.

[MathBlade]

implo you're going to hate this but the impression I get from your conversation with mathblade is that he's town and you're mafia and you know hem is mafia and you can't believe how absurdly wrong mathblade is. hehe

It’s possible. I don’t think it’s likely. I don’t see why implo makes the post he did as scum though.

It would be kinda oof

Good night and enjoy your Datisi flirting.

Artisi (I forget your shipper name) is always a good ship

[MathBlade]

As scum with HEM though*

Wow yeah writing at 1 am sucks.

[MathBlade]

I'm worried now I'm tunneling mathblade but I still think he could be scum.

Ari is there a reason you didn't vote mathblade

Let’s put it this way way way
I think hopefully you’ll see you’re tunnelled if town.

But I am bad at communicating what I know and shitty at explaining so I expect you’ll probably point your sus at me and then inexplicably you’ll get it and it will make sense later.

[MathBlade]

But then each time I try to explain what I see in you it’s infuriating.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like my Ari vote anymore

adding UNVOTE: for the vote counter. ~D

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Dwlee

Just want to see what happens while I am at work.

[MathBlade]

Feel better HEM.

No on Dwlee. Roden looks bad and I doubt scum match each other.

Match each other? What does this mean?

[MathBlade]

Error 404: Cakez not in player list

[MathBlade]

I kinda don’t believe that. Why is Dwlee a no again?

[MathBlade]

you accused std of scumreading you because you smoked him too many times as scum

the subtext is that he's town.

I don't think math addressed this yet, I'd like if he would

I did? Or if I follow I don’t know what you’re asking so can’t address it?

I think it’s SOP for StD?

[MathBlade]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

[MathBlade]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

[MathBlade]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

Dwlee or Titus?

I already said this somewhere. No repeats and Roden is scummy.

Dwlee’s prolonged silence is way scummier than Roden

Why do you feel Roden is scummier than Dwlee?

[MathBlade]

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

Dwlee or Titus?

I already said this somewhere. No repeats and Roden is scummy.

Why is he scummy? And I don’t understand what you’re saying here?

She means scum won’t pick the same number as their buddy.

[MathBlade]

I really feel Dwlee is scum.

Titus hasn’t given a reason other than “matching” and “trying”

I don’t see that here from them.

[MathBlade]

Hq is pretty town

Should I be paranoid you’re reading me correctly?

That could also apply to Math.

I actually don’t have a hard read on you.

You’re in my not today pile because you’re not obvious.

I don’t think I ever hard TR you because (reasons related to main).

[MathBlade]

I really feel Dwlee is scum.

Titus hasn’t given a reason other than “matching” and “trying”

I don’t see that here from them.

Is Titus likely to pocket you? I know she did in that normal.

She didn’t copy me in that normal you linked.

I had her sus from the moment go.

She could try to pocket me or not if she’s scum.

It depends on her agenda and if I am helping it or not.

[MathBlade]

@Math, it's the false hypothesis comment that irks me

That’s literally how science works.

You build a hypothesis and test it.

StD has a hypothesis I am scum.

I know it’s false but unless I allow him to test it then it becomes extremely antitown.

I build hypothesis and test them.

My StD hypothesis was falsified so I think StD is town.

I had a similar hypothesis with you when I was gunsmith.

why do you use the word falsified
that implies intentional action

For any premise to be scientifically valid it must be able to be false, falsifiable.

Eg Does the summer sun cause stained shirts?

This can be falsifiable if we leave a shirt out in the sun and it doesn’t stain.

Instead we learn that it fades, so something else causes the uptick in stained shirts.

They all tend to be sticky too.

So then testing again we can discover more people have ice cream in summer months.

It’s just how to make sure a hypothesis is valid.

Eg are there flying unicorns who exist only outside of space and time can’t be scientific because there’s no way to ever prove it false.

[MathBlade]

I hate that y’all are agreeing with me now when I said it to Ari and was treated as being ridiculous

[MathBlade]

https://blogs.stjude.org/progress/hypot ... iable.html

Here’s another explanation.

[MathBlade]

Gamma Emerald << Town I think? More active than most scum games

what is your meta basis for this? I'm not always active as scum but I'd say in the early game I can be pretty active as scum

I can’t think of a specific game you just seem quieter as scum.

[MathBlade]

Dwlee wagon all aboard?

[MathBlade]

I'm not saying I can't be wrong.

I think I'm right.

I have all these reasons why I think I'm right.

If you have a better lead somewhere else then make the case.

if you think my case is wrong because of _____ reason then state the reason.

but like you coming and going HEM is town because "gut" literally is meaningless to me.

And doing that with scum you (or town you who has demonstrated that you don’t want to listen) tonight is just going to create more bloat.

Good night

nice dodge

More like I don’t want another toxic TvT

She wasn’t listening to me and neither was the thread considering y’all recycled my points like they’re new ideas

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Explanation of why HEM is scum and his progression on me makes very little sense and is full of lies and gross inaccuracies/lies

initial vote - no explanation on why the vibes are bad or how they are different from other people.



note the timestamps on this - I really doubt town!hem really thinks I can take everyone's answers and give him numerical analysis because

(a) most people didn't respond or joke responded so I don't even have a data set to analyze

(b) it's like 5 hours between these posts.

(c) I don't think it's reasonable for him to expect me to give him an actual answer here so expecting one is kind of bad faith setting me up to fail and so he can continue his push.



this post is about the large number discussion I am having with Ausuka - he thinks it's not worth discussing because it's not great for reads and he wants to move on which is a kind of signaling. I believe scum!him thinks the context of the discussion is pointless - but this shouldn't actually be how town!him thinks because if he thinks I'm scum - then it should be good that Ausuka/Harley are pushing me on this. Instead he doesn't want them to interrogate me on my thoughts for ??? reasons.



here he's digging back in - now it's good for the number discussion because he sees it as something to use to push me. He tries to consolidate based on a narrative that scum!me was doing "false setup spec" on page 1? There's no discussion of actual motivation - he just finds this a covenient thing to attack with because Ausuka has been pushing me for it - you can tell he doesn't actually believe it because he doesn't really explain how it makes sense for scum!me to pursue this.

Notice the slip here - the second sentence implies that it's "bad town strategy to choose high numbers". As in he's thought about whether it'd be good for town to pick high numbers, he's concluded it's bad and thus I am "scummy" for doing this "bad thing" - except he's picked a even larger number than me - which is why he tries to pick up the slip with the idea that 80085 is personally sentimental and he's fine doing things that are not good strategy.

This feels like something self-conscious scum would do rather than town. because if town concluded that picking bad numbers is actually bad strategy - they would just

not do it

.

Here he seems to think it is bad for town to pick large number so i'm bad for picking a large number but he also has to bend himself into a pretzel to attack me for picking the large number while excusing himself for picking an even larger number.




he voted me for vibes. him forgetting what he voted me for originally and instead hijacking ausuka's argument feels like he never really remembered what he voted for me for in the first place.

implying it was bullshit vote he decided to double down on because it happened to have momentum



this is just pure revisionist nonsense.

he did not vote me for my comment about large numbers - he voted me for vibes. he decided to change what he was pushing me for after he saw Ausuka pushing me for "large numbers" he never even mentioned the large numbers thing until AFTER Ausuka started pushing me for it. He had previously stated in 128 that he didn't think the number discussion about large numbers was even useful so he clearly did not CARE about large numbers. He's now changing his story as if he was pushing me for the large number theory to begin with.



this is the first "read" of someone other than me he's made.

it feels conveniently like scum trying to recruit an ally.

I would imagine he would've gotten reads of at least Ausuka for how she's pushing me about Large Numbers but instead he's basically said nothing about anyone's alignment other than tunneling me up to this point.

It does not feel like something organic




This is the part that really triggered me.

He is making the implication that I have not done enough to persuade people because I do not actually care about getting this information.

It's grossly bad faith because I have tried multiple times to convince people to give me three numbers - 45 57 58 76 80 115 121

I have tried to be nice about this. I do care.

For him to misrep me as "not caring" is a ridiculously bad faith interpretation of my efforts this game. It annoys me because either he hasn't read my posting or he doesn't care about my posting and he's just making up whatever fake narrative he thinks will make me look bad instead of actually examining if I actually care about this number guessing thought experiment.

I thought it would be fun to have everyone guess 3 numbers and see if we could get some info out of it because

(1) scum know what they picked(tmi) and they want to make their guesses look like town guesses
(2) town do not know what scum picked
(3) the information could be useful down the line, it might not be useful down the line, I don't really know but if there's some anomaly that pops up it could be cool to think about.

If nobody wants to do it I'm not going to hijack the thread and just rant about it for like 10 days? I can scumhunt fine without it so I was moving on but he comes back and claims its proof that I'm scum because ????




This is him trying to back away and pretending he was actually sorting in good faith/being nice.

Which is kind of ridiculous because as you can see above, roughly 90% of his posts are just shitpushing me with made up narratives and lies.

him claiming that I am "not motivated to solve the game" when I have double the number of posts of anyone else and I'm literally answering any questions sent to me and talking/engaging with multiple slots is ludicrious and a total lie.

also his line about wanting to "help me squeeze out answers" is complete bullshit - I challenge anyone to pick out a single post in his iso prior to this where he is "trying to help me"



this remark makes very little sense because he's trying to placate me and convince me not to come after him because he's refering to a game where we were T/T and we fought for a while - except

(1) he supposedly thinks im lockscum so why is he even worried about this?

(2) if he thinks i'm town where is the reconsideration/evaluation of my alignment? literally every post up to here is just shitpushing me for made up narratives in his head.



this feels like he's trying to de-escalate to prevent this 1v1 from going full nuclear -

but it doesn't actually make sense for town!him to de-escalate if he thinks I'm mafia

Like I'm right here for him to sort but instead of sorting he's trying to placate me and see if he can get me to back off



more fake narrative nonsense. like I'm literally right there for him to sort but instead of asking me about my thoughts or literally anything game relevant he decides he wants to just try different colors of shade and see what works.



literally nothing in HEM's iso makes me think he is trying to sort me in good faith. literally most of his posts are shit tunneling me and I don't even think any of his reasoning is actually believable - his progression on me is literally a lie.



blaming me for this 1v1 is kind of rich because his entire iso is a shit tunnel of me whereas I'm actually engaging with multiple people so it's just a gross misrep of how we got here.

TLDR:

HEM is a player who enjoys using aggression as scum to get townread and push mis-elims. I do not believe his push of me is in good faith, his progression is mostly made up and there are several glaring inconsistencies/outright lies. I have not felt like he is trying to sort me in good faith at any point during my conversation with him.

I disagree with this assertion.

A good majority of players just don’t do the assessment asks and usually it’s not black and white

A good majority of your content has been some sort of mech/mech derivative.

Him asking you to give some content or conclusions feels fair. Even if you aren’t done, giving something on those that had or something to progress the game is merited there.

I don’t think he’s saying what you’re implying

From what I gain from this naked,unfiltered just dumps are bad, but conclusions themselves are good

I think he doesn’t like the little bits of conclusions you have done, and I tend to agree with him that assigning a generic pool (eg town in high numbers and scum don’t overlap (this one is Titus)) I think is a bad start. When we have a scum flip or two then we can look back

But I don’t like blanket assertions here unless they are backed up by some sort of statistical data here.

I haven’t had the time to run the numbers yet but I would want to see something done in at least three quarters of scum games before I would hold it as likely here.

[MathBlade]

I’d really like if you focused more on reads rather than the setup or if you’re going to do this then do something with some actual backing that scum or town do it consistently and not just your opinion as to what should be done.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was pissed in general and Ausuka being nice about maths felt out of place tonally so she seemed sus.

[MathBlade]

you accused std of scumreading you because you smoked him too many times as scum

the subtext is that he's town.

I don't think math addressed this yet, I'd like if he would

I did? Or if I follow I don’t know what you’re asking so can’t address it?

I think it’s SOP for StD?

why do you not think StD could be using you as a scapegoat or smth?

I am not sure I should answer that.

I thought that at the time time time but something stood out to me about him that just stuck around.

[MathBlade]

I hate that y’all are agreeing with me now when I said it to Ari and was treated as being ridiculous

that didn't really seem to be what you were saying tho

Sigh It’s kinda dumb to argue about just know I am frustrated

[MathBlade]

@Math, it's the false hypothesis comment that irks me

That’s literally how science works.

You build a hypothesis and test it.

StD has a hypothesis I am scum.

I know it’s false but unless I allow him to test it then it becomes extremely antitown.

I build hypothesis and test them.

My StD hypothesis was falsified so I think StD is town.

I had a similar hypothesis with you when I was gunsmith.

why do you use the word falsified
that implies intentional action

For any premise to be scientifically valid it must be able to be false, falsifiable.

Eg Does the summer sun cause stained shirts?

This can be falsifiable if we leave a shirt out in the sun and it doesn’t stain.

Instead we learn that it fades, so something else causes the uptick in stained shirts.

They all tend to be sticky too.

So then testing again we can discover more people have ice cream in summer months.

It’s just how to make sure a hypothesis is valid.

Eg are there flying unicorns who exist only outside of space and time can’t be scientific because there’s no way to ever prove it false.

I think my definition of a hypothesis might differ from yours

Mine’s the same one from grade school?

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was referring to Math scumreading me for being nice regarding the whole maths conversation. I don't know Math's meta, but I would like a response to my question about like, how has that worked as a scumtell for him historically? because it didn't come off like a real read. I was similarly confused by the push on implo for not tunneling. I think Math is fairly towny otherwise, I like his push on dwlee obviously

I already responded to that.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was pissed in general and Ausuka being nice about maths felt out of place tonally so she seemed sus.

Here it is.

Like are people just legit not reading my posts?

[MathBlade]

I really feel Dwlee is scum.

Titus hasn’t given a reason other than “matching” and “trying”

I don’t see that here from them.

That has to be BS because you only think I'm scum rn because of things that aren't there rather than things that are. So you can't be that confident of anything

This doesn’t merit a response.

I believe you are scum.

You believe I am lying.

You said “that confident” implying a tunnel of sorts.

I’ve actually been pretty quiet so your entire post is hot air saying you are town. Any player would.

[MathBlade]

The way I figure if HEM dies and flips town like I think they will then we work from my PoE tomorrow or scum nightkill me
If HEM flips scum then I was an idiot

There’s literally no point in forcing my PoE. At E-1 I just drop a reads list.

[MathBlade]

Math, Enchant thoughts?

I wish he would play but too many players are calling for policy.

Meaning Enchant is town or this is planned to bus enchant

[MathBlade]

The way I figure if HEM dies and flips town like I think they will then we work from my PoE tomorrow or scum nightkill me
If HEM flips scum then I was an idiot

There’s literally no point in forcing my PoE. At E-1 I just drop a reads list.

Since when do you not force your PoE?

When it’s stupid to do so and people don’t want to listen.

We haven’t had a single viable wagon besides HEM all day. That says town isn’t talking. So since I can’t force that best to let the wagon through then find the scum on the wagon.

[MathBlade]

That’s just not normal for a d1.

[MathBlade]

Damn that's the first time I've ever been scumread for being bad at maths

huh?

I was pissed in general and Ausuka being nice about maths felt out of place tonally so she seemed sus.

Here it is.

Like are people just legit not reading my posts?

I read the post - I know it's about the same topic but I didn't really register it as a response to my question, firstly because it was a response to Gamma and secondly because you said at the time it was because "people aren't usually nice" - I was specifically asking if you had any like examples of using that kind of read in towngames or players being unusually nice as scum. Like, I'm more trying to read into your thought process than ask clarification, if that makes sense.

I could if I bothered too but it’s pretty well known by Titus and Gamma especially. I’d rather see if they back it up to read them. If they say it’s a lie then they are sus and I can be bothered to go get it. If they tell the truth saves me time.

[MathBlade]

Dwlee Bellaphant Implosion Titus Enchant (but only if scum with policy pushers) Ari (only if Enchant is scum)

I like Asuaka’s response so they’re back null to me.

Any particular reason you wanna not confirm what I told Ausuka?

[MathBlade]

We haven’t had a single viable wagon besides HEM all day. That says town isn’t talking. So since I can’t force that best to let the wagon through then find the scum on the wagon.

We had an Aristeia wagon and a Dwlee wagon that both hit 3 votes (the Aristeia wagon twice). Sure that's not 6 but it's enough to call it a wagon.

And more importantly, at least fmpov, this is not a normal d1. The thing that makes it not normal for me specifically is that I have an unusually strong scumread for day one. So why wouldn't I be leaving my vote there?

Dwlee Bellaphant Implosion Titus Enchant (but only if scum with policy pushers) Ari (only if Enchant is scum)

I like Asuaka’s response so they’re back null to me.

Any particular reason you wanna not confirm what I told Ausuka?

Hang on.

So Ausuka is "null" but not in a PoE???

Those aren’t wagons to me. They didn’t take off enough.

And yes. Because my PoE is big enough with just scum reads.

[MathBlade]

Not having multiple wagons is a sign of a dysfunctional town.

[MathBlade]

If you scumread 6 people in a 3 scum game that means you're wrong

It’s a POE

Some are obviously town but it’s a PoE not a solve. If I had a 6 player solve I would be wrong.

[MathBlade]

@math, what have Roden and the mala slot done to escape your Poe?

Mala has IRL stuff so she’s impossible to read
Roden just seems to be hunting I am not sure how to explain other than Roden doesn’t seem scummy

[MathBlade]

I could if I bothered too but it’s pretty well known by Titus and Gamma especially. I’d rather see if they back it up to read them. If they say it’s a lie then they are sus and I can be bothered to go get it. If they tell the truth saves me time.

this post confuses me for some stupid reason
it goes back to implo's point about "why would town, or anyone really, say upfront what response they would find suspicious?"
and I'm not even really sure what you're on about so I'd rather you post examples first before I say whether you're right or not. I think in general your idea that being nice is suspicious is kinda off-base though. It's probably player-dependent to a large degree.

That’s not what you said in the game where Titus was scum though recently?

[MathBlade]

I think you're probably taking me out of context

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13371669

You tell me.

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13371701

[MathBlade]

???
imo that's a massive contradiction to the point you're making here. Titus was being exceptionally not-nice and was scum.

That is my point exactly

Default is not nice

[MathBlade]

???
imo that's a massive contradiction to the point you're making here. Titus was being exceptionally not-nice and was scum.

That is my point exactly

Default is not nice

no it isn't??????

It just is and I proved where you said Titus treats me like that every game

It’s what everyone does.

Math is ridiculous.

I could say the sky is blue or cloudy or whatever with a photograph but then we’d still get Math is moonlogicky.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.11

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [5]:

Dwlee99, Titus, implosion, Roden, Save The Dragons

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Enchant

Dwlee99 [2]:

Ausuka, MathBlade

MathBlade [1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Aristeia, Bellaphant

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ Gamma Emerald v/la for a week.
~ dual mod iso.
~ this is mod note.

flavour

HarleyQuinn can you please vote somewhere?

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.11

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [5]:

Dwlee99, Titus, implosion, Roden, Save The Dragons

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Enchant

Dwlee99 [2]:

Ausuka, MathBlade

MathBlade [1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Aristeia, Bellaphant

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ Gamma Emerald v/la for a week.
~ dual mod iso.
~ this is mod note.

flavour

HarleyQuinn can you please vote somewhere?

@Math why did you single me out when neither bella or Ari are currently voting anyone?

Because Bella I know won’t vote until she’s ready Ari has made her positions clear where as you not voting is weird

[MathBlade]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

This is literally what I said??

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

Why are you lying?

Titus Dwlee Gamma? I was tring them before but I don’t like how they volunteered they aren’t TRing me yet are off HEM. That disconnect is weird.

I think if any of those are off I look at Harley and implosion.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.11

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [5]:

Dwlee99, Titus, implosion, Roden, Save The Dragons

Aristeia [2]:

humaneatingmonkey, Enchant

Dwlee99 [2]:

Ausuka, MathBlade

MathBlade [1]:

Gamma Emerald

not voting [4]:

Harley Quinn, Malakittens, Aristeia, Bellaphant

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ Gamma Emerald v/la for a week.
~ dual mod iso.
~ this is mod note.

flavour

HarleyQuinn can you please vote somewhere?

@Math why did you single me out when neither bella or Ari are currently voting anyone?

Because Bella I know won’t vote until she’s ready

Ari has made her positions clear where as you not voting is weird

No it isn’t. I’m the same as bella, how do you not know that?

Can’t answer without outing your main.

Call me a liar if you wish.

[MathBlade]

You are different

[MathBlade]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

This is literally what I said??

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

Why are you lying?

Titus Dwlee Gamma? I was tring them before but I don’t like how they volunteered they aren’t TRing me yet are off HEM. That disconnect is weird.

I think if any of those are off I look at Harley and implosion.

Did you quote the wrong post?

Nope I wanted your opinion on that solve

[MathBlade]

@Gamma, can you quote/link me where he tried to cause friction as scum?

dunno if it's intentional but I would probably say to look at micro 1053 (Inspector Rean)

I will save you time

I have attempted to cause friction as scum

But that was a broken micro so *shrug*

[MathBlade]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

Here you go.

[MathBlade]

It’s more relational things

HEM I really don’t think he’s scum. I can look at the people who sus HEM yet don’t have a commitment to vote there

I scumread Dwlee as they’re not following their meta ans Titus is sus. The remainder I am sorting out

[MathBlade]

Who is wallflower?

[MathBlade]

I AM HERE

Who is this person?

[MathBlade]

hi im in a lot of pain. can someone give me a rundown of how everyone will solve the game moving forward and if i'm satisfied I'll allow my elim. 80085 got me vanilla. i dont think there's much fighting this.

No one really has done much.

People are just posturing.

[MathBlade]

Wallflower replaces Malakittens.

@math

Yeah I am taking a nap

[MathBlade]

Uhm I only know one lady I am comfortable with saying that and unless I know you’re her that’s awkward so I am gonna go with awkward.

[MathBlade]

It’s more relational things

HEM I really don’t think he’s scum. I can look at the people who sus HEM yet don’t have a commitment to vote there

I scumread Dwlee as they’re not following their meta ans Titus is sus. The remainder I am sorting out

I actually haven’t made up my mind on ANYBODY yet and won’t until it’s closer to deadline. If that’s allowed?

This is the only one seemingly not responded to and it’s not up to me

[MathBlade]

It’s more relational things

HEM I really don’t think he’s scum. I can look at the people who sus HEM yet don’t have a commitment to vote there

I scumread Dwlee as they’re not following their meta ans Titus is sus. The remainder I am sorting out

I actually haven’t made up my mind on ANYBODY yet and won’t until it’s closer to deadline. If that’s allowed?

This is the only one seemingly not responded to and it’s not up to me

No, there’s several. Not voting early isn’t a valid reason to sr me ever and how do you not tr Gamma?

Because I don’t? Like ???

[MathBlade]

Why do you scum read Gamma?

Because I don’t tr him yet

It’s hard to explain a negative