Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Wallflower]

I AM HERE

[Wallflower]

Who is wallflower?

Well...

I'm your Venus, I'm your fire, at your desire

[Wallflower]

Did Ari ever explain her asking everyone to post the numbers they'd pick as scum?

[Wallflower]

eh nvm it doesn't matter. ari is probably town

[Wallflower]

idk
but I dislike how he's being hard to work with when it comes to explaining reads
which is ironic because I think he pushed StD for that earlier

I don’t really see a point right now

HEM is the de facto elim

No one is going to change their minds

From HEM’s flip and who scum kill I can see where to go from here

I likely don’t die

There just literally is no point in it

I'm only up to page 19 atm (it feels like it's 70% Ari vs. HEM gosh) so obviously the vibe could have drastically changed or something, but just looking at recent posts, time to deadline, vote count etc. from an external perspective, this sort of resignation to HEM being flipped when you think they're town seems... excessive?

[Wallflower]

Math catching up makes me confident to say thats hes town or at least hes doing this because he recognizes that ill spot if hes doing the same shtick he did from our last game

you just said that you'd die be the Math-town read and now you've got the "or at least he's doing this because he recognizes..." disclaimer?? which is it?

[Wallflower]

Okay we made it!

I have (sort of) read the game.

Whew.

I feel pretty good about HQ, Gamma, Dwlee, Aristeia being town.
Ausuka and Bellaphant also give me vaguely positive feelings but I'm not, like, solid. Kind of like ice cream, a weird not-quite-solid, not-quite-liquid amount of certainty!

Mmmm ice cream.

But yes!

The dwlee read seems most at odds with where other people might be at, but I think that Post 548 in particular comes from a town mindset, and in a similar way, Post 1184. I think it's a bit bold of scum to be outright "I like this person because they townread me!" in the way that Dwlee has, but it's an approach that feels consistent with how they are playing this game.

I might need to read over some things again, but when it comes to HEM I just feel... underwhelmed. If they flip scum I'd be like "yeah sure, that makes sense". If they flip town I'd be like "yeah sure, that makes sense". I just can't bring myself to feel stongly either way.

I do have a bit of a pet scumread in implosion. Particularly the insistence on being enthusiastic about the HEM wagon after being called out for exploring other options/being non-committal feels like more of a response to that than true progression of the read.

[Wallflower]

Opinion on math/Titus?

I have uhh been putting off making up my mind about those two. With both of them, I'm conflicted.

Titus has a few posts that are interpreting other players' behaviour in a fairly reachy way and stating it as fact, which on the surface feels sort of manipulative, but I'd maybe lean towards it being town just stating what they think and not really seeing reason to doubt it. Examples are Post 946 ("Roden still has no drive to solve"), Post 989 ("Dwlee tries to have an impact" - especially bizarre tbh) and particularly Post 1095 about Enchant, which I still don't really understand as what Enchant was saying.
I'm also still deciding on what I think of the accusations of "shopping" whenever people are considering votes other than HEM.

I think at one point during my read-through I was feeling more confident in Mathblade being scum, and I don't remember exactly why I softened on that (it's been... a day). , but I think it might have been partly because reading through put the approach to HEM a bit more into context for me. Maybe it's HEM's recent absence but I felt that feeling of it being sort of inevitable too. It's hard to explain.
And right now I'm staring at Post 1148 and I want to townread it because it resonates hard but it's also an easy post to make as scum and if mathlade is aware of his moonlogicky meta then that would make sense of the awkwardly obstinate posting that had me so concerned to begin with.

I guess that probably gives the best idea of where I'm at with them right now? Hopefully it will become clearer now that I'm actually in the game, rather than trying to quickly read through.

[Wallflower]

VOTE: Implosion

I’m a bit short on time but I’ll have more to say on this soon

[Wallflower]

HEM, when you get the chance I'd like a better idea of your reads, especially on Mathblade. Would you still "die by" the townread there?

Also do you actually think Ari is scum? Your posting sounds like it but I don't get the impression that you really believe that.

--

Out of everyone here, implosion's play feels the most constructed. Every post feels like it's careful to not rock any boats too much, but when you really think about it there's nothing actually that town about implosion. I was first concerned when in Post 158 he dismissed Ausuka's suspicion of him (which I actually vibed quite a bit with when reading through) as "weird", which I know might seem like a trivial thing, but I think it's a pattern of how scum dismiss suspicion on them. A way of appearing not too bothered, not too defensive, whilst subtly discrediting the push on them. Because I don't think there was anytihng weird about Ausuka's posting at all.

I've already mentioned the shift from being "fine" with a HEM wagon but thinking about other options -> being enthusiastic about HEM scum and having more solidified reasons. Again implosion's explanation for this is logical, but the progression was really dissonant with my thought processes when reading the game. While HEM was posting I was feeling more suspicious of them, but then with the V/LA and explanation of their hospitalisation etc. it made their posting and pattern of posting make a bit more sense for me. I don't believe that town become MORE suspicious of someone for not posting reads AFTER finding out that they're actually V/LA due to being in hospital.

The other thing that has concerned me is the interaction with MathBlade. A lot of the response posts and questions from implo to Mathblade do not strike me as actually trying to sort mathblade, and seem more like trying to make Mathblade look bad (and again, very dissonant with the claimed "I can't read Mathblade, I'll let others sort him" approach.

[Wallflower]

Implosion’s response is ummm not what I was expecting.

UNVOTE:

I need to think a bit more about this

[Wallflower]

Nope and until you get the difference, you will have the persuasiveness of a housefly in a venus fly trap.

this is a sign of town!Titus

I’m coming around to Titustown as well. What do you think of HEM’s recent posts?

[Wallflower]

Actually, you know what?

VOTE: Enchant

I don’t care about the numbers

[Wallflower]

I wanted to say something else but that would have been a bit rude

[Wallflower]

I do think it's best to avoid talking to Math atm until he's ready to listen about how he's affecting people and how his communication isn't working. He's just not willing to. I'm not going to engage his opinions on me, but if someone thinks he makes a particular point they'd want my input on, I'd be glad to answer.

I don't think Math will be better until Dwlee or I flip or are mech cleared, even if I reasses on Dwlee. Math's positions make me not want to though even though I don't have a strong read on Dwlee. I just feel he is town.

Also, given the fact we're getting a Math wagon together,, I find Wallflower's timing off. Enchant strategically isn't be best lim for day 1 because he's a certain power role. If he took vengeful (pretty much a scum claim) it will not change. If he took ascetic cop, he'll get a result unless scum kill him. The only exception is that if Enchant took a one shot vig. He'd use it N1 and would have next to no idea who to shoot. However, there's a risk any scum takes the one shot vig.

My thoughts might not make complete sense and maybe I have this pathological need to be DIFFERENT, but my understanding is that the main reason this matches Math-scum is the giving up on saving HEM rather than just continuing to push the townread, right? I am concerned by that too, but given the state of the game and especially HEM not even posting at the time, I can see a world where math truly feels that way.

When it comes to Enchant, it just feels… wrong to me that we have to let speculation about a role Enchant may or may not have take them off the table, especially when there’s no one else I actually could vote for right now and say “yeah that feels right to me”

[Wallflower]

i still think flipping mathblade over hem is a very suboptimal play because the odds of scum!mb WKing a town!hem is extraordinarily low. i think he is way overdoing the defense here.

Fair. I am not sure exactly what Math's agenda is. He's still my favorite lim right now though.

Who exactly is your townblock and your scumblock?

townblock is hq titus gamma std mathblade

i think scum are hem enchant

im shaky on implo think he could be third not anywhere near as good feeling tbh

Would be interested in what you think about implo’s response to my suspicion of him. I would have expected scum to go for a more discredit-y angle there. Also the admission regarding posts on Mathblade threw me for a bit of a loop.

[Wallflower]

I do think it's best to avoid talking to Math atm until he's ready to listen about how he's affecting people and how his communication isn't working. He's just not willing to. I'm not going to engage his opinions on me, but if someone thinks he makes a particular point they'd want my input on, I'd be glad to answer.

I don't think Math will be better until Dwlee or I flip or are mech cleared, even if I reasses on Dwlee. Math's positions make me not want to though even though I don't have a strong read on Dwlee. I just feel he is town.

Also, given the fact we're getting a Math wagon together,, I find Wallflower's timing off. Enchant strategically isn't be best lim for day 1 because he's a certain power role. If he took vengeful (pretty much a scum claim) it will not change. If he took ascetic cop, he'll get a result unless scum kill him. The only exception is that if Enchant took a one shot vig. He'd use it N1 and would have next to no idea who to shoot. However, there's a risk any scum takes the one shot vig.

My thoughts might not make complete sense and maybe I have this pathological need to be DIFFERENT, but my understanding is that the main reason this matches Math-scum is the giving up on saving HEM rather than just continuing to push the townread, right? I am concerned by that too, but given the state of the game and especially HEM not even posting at the time, I can see a world where math truly feels that way.

When it comes to Enchant, it just feels… wrong to me that we have to let speculation about a role Enchant may or may not have take them off the table, especially when there’s no one else I actually could vote for right now and say “yeah that feels right to me”

So you're townreading everyone else?

No

[Wallflower]

Everyone else has things about them that give me pause, things about them where I think actually they could be town and maybe I just need more time to see it. I think I’ve talked a lot about this sort of thing, but if there’s anyone you specifically want my thoughts on, let me know.

(Above @titus)

[Wallflower]

I ideally want to see more from HEM but would go for them over Math

[Wallflower]

Ah I didn’t realise it was that close

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

[Wallflower]

I truly have tried to get an understanding of the math scumread and it still seems to boil down to what I said here?

my understanding is that the main reason this matches Math-scum is the giving up on saving HEM rather than just continuing to push the townread, right? I am concerned by that too, but given the state of the game and especially HEM not even posting at the time, I can see a world where math truly feels that way.

HQ is there something I'm missing?

[Wallflower]

I truly have tried to get an understanding of the math scumread and it still seems to boil down to what I said here?

my understanding is that the main reason this matches Math-scum is the giving up on saving HEM rather than just continuing to push the townread, right? I am concerned by that too, but given the state of the game and especially HEM not even posting at the time, I can see a world where math truly feels that way.

HQ is there something I'm missing?

It’s far more than that. Far more. I should pull up my posts or you can ISO me.

Math is scum because he doesn’t believe anything he says. ISO him and look at the reasoning/or more like lack there of for his reads.

Examples:

His push on Dwlee has no substance behind it. He sr Gamma for “not having found town!him yet”, eventhough Gamma played identically in Koba’s mini normal where they were both town. He sr Ausuka for being “nice about maths” or something. When is being nice ever a valid scumtell and especially for Ausuka who - when is she not nice? His progression on STD went from STD lockscum to STD locktown in pretty much the blink of an eye. He posted that if ANY not ALL of Dwlee, Titus, Gamma flip scum, he would then put me or Implosive in hid PoE. However, I am now extremely confident all 3 are town.

And yes, his entire progression on HEM is not what I’ve experienced with town!Math ever. He initially called HEM his top townread but voted HEM under pressure from Aristelia. Town!Math would never allow his arm to be twisted like that to vote a genuine top tr like that. Town!Math is bullheaded and obstinate to a fault. He is also one of the most anti-survivalistic players as town and I don’t recall Math ever being willing to policy anyone. Sometimes town!Math actually gets it right like in Koba’s mini normal and other times very wrong as in White Flag but there is always substance to his reads no matter how outlandish it looks to others. ISO both games to contast them with this one. Town!Math overflows with conviction and is also consistent with his reads. Here, he seems to change his reads on a dime without rhyme or reason. Town!Math doesn’t change his reads easily and definitely never under pressure.

Also he switched his srs on both Ausuka and Ari when they either voted the way he wanted or tr him. He gave me shit for initially not voting but had no issue with bella not voting, eventhough I had the exact same reason for having not voted as she had.

He had STD and Roden as top trs but is now takinv that at least partially back with STD. He did something similar with Gamma. He referred to them both as T/T but now he’s suddenly scum because he couldn’t find town!him early enough.

There are just so many reasons why Math is scum here.

(italics and bold added)

I do appreciate this and sorry if I've been making you repeat yourself. I see the italic parts as things that Mathblade as obstinate town would probably do. Particularly the part near the bottom about switching his SRs on people who do what he wants. Whilst annoying, I feel like at a basic level, someone is just generally more likely to warm to people who do what they want them to do.

The bolded is the part that has me unsure though, because I do agree that the progression on HEM is weird and does not fit with obstinate-town Mathblade, and ultimately I really just don't know.

[Wallflower]

VOTE: MathBlade

AAAAHHH

[Wallflower]

actually no there's enough time

I'm going to at least sleep on it

UNVOTE:

Sorry I'm not normally so jittery

[Wallflower]

thanks harley, it's sleep time for me now and I've just had a bit of RL drama so now is not the time for me to be making decisions, but I'll look over it all in the morning/day.

[Wallflower]

You are enchanted by Aris, and can't see devil.

Who is the devil?

[Wallflower]

Dwlee, you’re both arguing that you are asking lots of questions here, and that this is not your towngame anymore. Why both of these?

[Wallflower]

I kind of hate how much this game has become so harshly centralized on "here's deep analysis on what happens if HEM is scum or Math is scum or they're both scum". I do scumread both of those slots right now but it still feels like, sort of a lot of rhetorical eggs in one or two baskets.

But alas.

Yeah, you did have to twist Math's arm to vote HEM... but he did vote HEM. Actions speak louder, etc.

To be clear at this moment I'm really undecided on which of the two is the better lim/which one is likelier to be the scum if exactly one of them is scum, just trying to reason it out.

Yeah I’m hoping to get some time to read over the slots and work this out. I agree with Ari that HEM’s check in was not at all inspiring but I disagree with assuming that Mathblade as scum wouldn’t try something new (such as WKing).

[Wallflower]

mathblade tried pretty hard to derail the hem wagon he screamed, he was rude, he flung weird moonlogic everywhere - thats a sign of geniune belief imo and makes very little sense for scum!blade to do for town!hem

has hem done anything to derail the mathblade wagon?

Tbf I think Mathblade is aware that people often don’t listen to him

[Wallflower]

I’m phone-skimming so if this was covered in a post point me to it, but Mathblade, what changed your mind on HEM from thinking them Town to having them as a scumread?

[Wallflower]

Okay I'm preettty sure I'm set at eliminating HEM over Mathblade.

The key things deciding it for me atm:

- Mathblade's talk of resetting and reconsidering his reads here is soooo opposite of what people have already claimed as Math's town-meta here, that I actually think it's more likely to come from town (because let's face it, town can be unpredictable, do random shit that doesn't make sense etc.) than scum who are more likely to try and replicate what they/other people

think

is their town-meta.

- HEM's posts primarily

still

seem to be about Ari's case on them, which at best is just... not contributing anything of value.. and at worst trying to distract from the wagon by... idk.. hoping that they can spin Ari around in enough circles that the case looks bad and everyone somehow forgets about it? okay idk what the goal is but I'm having trouble seeing it from a town mindset.

[Wallflower]

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

there you go

[Wallflower]

By L I assume you mean lasso

[Wallflower]

Sorry everyone, had a busy start to the morning and still need to read up but I did not JK/RB math if that helps?

[Wallflower]

I think it’s implo

Will have more tonight

[Wallflower]

I think it makes sense to wait for Enchant

[Wallflower]

I'm really just waiting on Enchant at this point.

All the other stuff is largely irrelevant imo

[Wallflower]

What confirmation you want from me?

All I need to know is, do you have a cop result saying that MathBlade is town?

Just a yes/no answer is fine for me.

(Asking because Ausuka has claimed that they jailkept MathBlade last night)

[Wallflower]

Awesome, thank you <3

VOTE: MathBlade

[Wallflower]

Just woke up but I'm not really seeing the benefit of massclaim at a glance

[Wallflower]

there's a lot of outed roles, who does scum shoot? it's a buffet. shooting the doc is probably the case but the doc could be jked. shooting the jk could be fine but maybe the jk is doctored. shooting the cop might be okay but what if they're doctored?

If Enchant is bp then there can’t be a cop.

that assumes enchant is lying about bp

I don't think that's how the setup works?

[Wallflower]

But I was fashionably late so my understanding could be totally bananas

[Wallflower]

i meant

"if enchant is lying about bp, there might be a cop"

ahhh, yes

[Wallflower]

town should never pick bp over ascetic cop

What's the scum agenda though? I feel like Enchant can only be scum if scum with MathBlade.

[Wallflower]

I think atp we should just cut the massclaim now and avoid any further damage if it's this contentious

I think I'm with you on this, and I think Math is the way to go today

[Wallflower]

I think atp we should just cut the massclaim now and avoid any further damage if it's this contentious

I think I'm with you on this, and I think Math is the way to go today

Do you think I am scum or the way to go or both?

What are your reads?

You’ve been pretty quiet.

I think it's the combination of likelihood of Ausuka-JK blocking the kill and your play, and I have a hard time seeing myself go somewhere else today.

I also don't see why I would share my reads at this point.

[Wallflower]

Yeah no worries. I was probably being needlessly obtuse anyway.

My main thought today was that Implosion fits pretty well as a HEM partner, and honestly possibly with Math as well, but I haven't looked into that closely yet. But there are some key aspects of how implosion played D1 that are how I think a HEM buddy would have played it. For e.g. the initial hesitant bussing, feeling forced to double down after being called out, backing off slightly when other options may have been possible. I also was reconsidering the way that implosion interacted with me and my scumread there. I'm used to scum just shading me when I suspect them, but I think implosion's... almost-buddying in a way? also makes sense. Especially the part where implosion was using the same reasoning as me for certain reads.

The Math/Titus stuff is difficult for me to get my head around but I'm reading through Day 2 properly at the moment and I can see MathBlade as scum? I think if I came up with a way to explain it, it would just be justifying the opinion I'd already formed, but I guess as I said, I don't think I could justifiably not elim there. There were some things that bothered me, like the initial claim that Ausuka was lying about the JK (where I think town-Math would realise that there are other explanations for a lack of kill), or the insistence that Enchant MUST have a cop inno on him (which feels more like an attempt to emulate obstinate-town-Math than truly town-Math) but I don't know if those things are actually scummy or I'm just seeing them that way because of the JK claim, if that makes sense? Now that I've written it out it feels scummy to me, but I do try to be conscious of biases etc.

Otherwise, I haven't thought a WHOLE lot about reads, but I think HQ, Gamma, Dwlee, Aristeia, Titus are still townreads for me. Less sure of STD, but I haven't looked at his posts closely for while. Obviously more sure on Ausuka being town, and I think the way Roden went about the Voyeur claim was townie as well. Enchant's play Day 2 comes across as quite town to me, but I guess I could also see a Math/Enchant world where this is a hail mary type play.

If I'm wrong on implo or Math, I could maaaybe see Bella sneaking in as scum somewhere? But I think the way she claimed was probably town too?

[Wallflower]

uh

can you share reads anyway

Actually this is interesting. Up until this point, you'd done about just as much sharing of reads as I had. Why did you have particular interest in me sharing reads, or was it just to make me look bad?

[Wallflower]

I feel like the way that Post 2997 was written (particularly the "uh") implies that it was unreasonable of me to not share more reads. But I was pretty clear on my reads Day 1 too, so I'm not sure whether you actually wanted my reads or if your post was just a safe post to make because it's a pretty classically "bad" thing for someone to not post reads.

[Wallflower]

not really but it was worth a try

[Wallflower]

More and more I think eliminating Math is the only correct play here and the more talking about roles etc the more info we give to scum

[Wallflower]

eliminating enchant and having him flip scum ascetic cop would literally mean the JK guilty on MB is meaningless

create an ascetic cop for us from the Universal Backup

and set the scum on 1 scum left and pretty much easy win

How does enchant as ascetic cop mean that Math is not guilty? Doesn’t it just remove another possible explanation for the no-kill?

[Wallflower]

eliminating enchant and having him flip scum ascetic cop would literally mean the JK guilty on MB is meaningless

create an ascetic cop for us from the Universal Backup

and set the scum on 1 scum left and pretty much easy win

How does enchant as ascetic cop mean that Math is not guilty? Doesn’t it just remove another possible explanation for the no-kill?

Because the JK guilty means nothing if Enchant is Scum Ascetic Cop

Ascetic always makes Nightkills if Scum has it

Oh right sorry

[Wallflower]

I mean, let’s say that Enchant /was/ shot last night? If Enchant was an ascetic cop then they’d be dead. Which is also useless

[Wallflower]

Like I agree on a theory level that I would not have picked BP in Enchant’s position but I know not everyone is going to do what I would do, and I don’t think it’s as nonsense as you say

(@ ari)

[Wallflower]

Idk why we’re operating on the assumption that enchant as town would do what Ari would do

[Wallflower]

Yes exactly

[Wallflower]

Idk I can totally see the thought process of “muahahaha scum are going to think I’m a big scary role but then they’ll shoot me and FAIL!!”

Is it bad that I might’ve been tempted by that?

[Wallflower]

UNVOTE:

I’m busy at work rn and can’t keep up.

If there have been more claims it might be best just to get it all out, but I haven’t kept track of who has claimed what.

If I need to claim, put it big and bold so that I can’t miss it

[Wallflower]

VT

[Wallflower]

Can’t anyone be confirmed that way?

[Wallflower]

Don’t knock it til you try it!

(But yeah idk)

[Wallflower]

Maybe Titus will ask someone to claim VT or PR and then they’ll say “neither”

[Wallflower]

Fair point. Sorry I didn’t mean to make fun of the plan

[Wallflower]

This forces scum Ausaka to waste their JK on Roden to fake it.

So if Roden gets ascetic he knows scum in Asuaka or Enchant

If Roden doesn’t then Enchant is not ascetic and very likely bulletproof conf town.

or enchant comes in like "I'm town ascetic cop I was just trying to wifom"?

And then I’ll be like “bruh”

[Wallflower]

Now we need Wallflower StD and Dwlee to reveal their choices and why they made them.

I’m still waiting to hear from the mods what Mala chose

[Wallflower]

I was not

[Wallflower]

Mala tried to pick bulletproof. I have no idea why, but that is apparently what happened.

[Wallflower]

I also don’t know what happened last night but I thought Mathblade was scum for the same reason and I know I’m in the PoE anyway, so if I need to go then I need to go.

It is very late here so I don’t have much more to coherently say rn but my best guess rn is implo/titus

[Wallflower]

I suppose I could see the logic of killing Ausuka if they thought Ari was a possible JK target. Could have been thought of as a way of shading Ari if Ausuka turns up dead and then people be like “wtf Ari”

Depending on who the scum are, I’m also weighing up how viable no-killing would be as a strategy. From yesterday, scum would have known that there could be no ascetic cop, which I think is by far the most dangerous role to scum. An approach of no-killing would essentially just make it nightless, because the existing roles are not all that useful if scum decide to just not kill. Gives town more elims though obv so I’m not sure if they would do that, but something to consider

[Wallflower]

I suppose I could see the logic of killing Ausuka if they thought Ari was a possible JK target. Could have been thought of as a way of shading Ari if Ausuka turns up dead and then people be like “wtf Ari”

Depending on who the scum are, I’m also weighing up how viable no-killing would be as a strategy.

From yesterday, scum would have known that there could be no ascetic cop

, which I think is by far the most dangerous role to scum. An approach of no-killing would essentially just make it nightless, because the existing roles are not all that useful if scum decide to just not kill. Gives town more elims though obv so I’m not sure if they would do that, but something to consider

Wait how could scum have possibly known this before Roden voyeured Enchant?

Fair point. It would have been assuming that Enchant was true-claiming rather than pretending to be BP as cop (or that Enchant was shot N1)

[Wallflower]

@Wallflower, do you still have a “pet scumread” on Implosion or has that changed?

Based on play, I still think that implosion could be scum yeah, but I’m still getting my head around how roles etc influence things

[Wallflower]

I mean, it’s kind of a moot point anyway because I need to die regardless

[Wallflower]

I feel like the whole concept of a fakeclaim isn’t really that relevant because scum imo are just as likely (probably more likely tbh) to actually just be the role that they’re claiming (except mafia instead of town)

[Wallflower]

A little less conversation, a little more action
All this aggravation ain’t satisfactioning me

[Wallflower]

Here i come again.

A little less conversation, a little more action
All this aggravation ain’t satisfactioning me

Helpful posting

I mean, the alternative seems to be arguing in circles about who scum could have killed which doesn't seem helpful to me. We need to get my elim over with and move on.

[Wallflower]

Good luck friends!

[Wallflower]

I’m like 99.9999999% sure Enchant is scum.

I think even if I’m not eliminated today, it’s inevitable, and I’d rather it happen sooner than later and not need to have the dark stormy suspicion cloud hanging over me and everything I say.

I also don’t actually think Enchant is scum, but I don’t how to read Enchant so maybe I’m wrong on that

[Wallflower]

actually on rereading some of this stuff I feel like maybe Mala/Wallflower is maybe town

Well yes, but let’s be real, is there another realistic option today? I can’t obvtown like math can

[Wallflower]

do you like want to get flipped? O___O

Honestly kind of? I feel like it’s necessary for the game, because otherwise people are going to be viewing everything through the assumption of me being scum. Once I’m flipped, people actually need to think of teams without me in it, but I think before then it’ll always be Wallflower/x, if that makes sense.

[Wallflower]

Wallflower who should we be looking at after you flip town

I actually want to say I really appreciate you asking. I think I have been more self-defeating than I should have been here and while I've had the "no one listens to dead town" mantra going through my head it really is just perpetuating my self-indulgent wallowing.

I'm much more dayplay-focused than mechanics-focused, and so I'm not sure if I've completely gotten my head around everything, but I consider the almost-certain town to be:

Harley Quinn - Possible (probable?) N1 kill target. Appears genuinely confused as to why scum would try to kill Ausuka N2. The turnaround on Math was very much not like scum positioning etc.
Ausuka - The paranoid world where Ausuka has made all this up is... not likely? Ausuka in no way needed to frame me if scum.
Ari - HEM-interactions very probably not distancing. The paranoid world where Ari as scum no-kills in order to claim doctor saves is also... very unlikely.

I've had Titus and Implo in my mind as possible scum, but I'm still questioning Titus in particular and whether she would "take charge" as she has. But, the interactions with Mathblade reminded me of Titus-scum/Math-town dynamic I've seen elsewhere and reading back on Titus' play around the Mathblade wagons, it just feels agenda-driven to me.
Implo just keeps coming up for me because of reasons I've said before, but also I wonder if him being the most willing to consider the possibility that scum targeted Ausuka, is because he knows that scum did target Ausuka.

Roden, Enchant, even Gamma also feel possible to me but less likely. I often have Roden as town in my mind, but then I keep forgetting he exists. The way Enchant claimed yesterday felt unnecessary for scum to do, especially since I think scum would have considered claiming BP there to be a bad idea. And I still don't know whether Gamma knew they were hammering Math or not, but the votes against Ari felt needlessly inflammatory for scum to do.

STD, Bella and Dwlee feel a bit more town to me based on play but I guess there's nothing ABSOLUTELY ruling them out.

I guess the main thing is I want to make sure not to make any premature assumptions. I've had experiences before where I've just town-binned scum for what felt like good reasons at the time. But I know that it might be my flip that's needed to get people to think in a more open-minded way. To think about what might be going on that isn't the obvious.

[Wallflower]

I don't see why anyone takes BP over cop if they're not obviously PR?? Like if I was a low slot I was going to choose cop tbh

I don't either!!!

[Wallflower]

I could've been a doctor gosh

[Wallflower]

I guess what you're saying is to look at Titus?

I think that's the main takeaway yep

[Wallflower]

Fwiw I was reminded of this game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88987

[Wallflower]

VOTE: Enchant

I'm still fine with dying here, but if people are prepared to trust me (well, at least a little bit) then I'd rather stay

[Wallflower]

VOTE: Enchant

I'm still fine with dying here, but if people are prepared to trust me (well, at least a little bit) then I'd rather stay

Didn’t you say, your slot needed to be resolved to advance the game? And weren’t you saying before that Enchant was your tr?

People seem a bit more open-minded regarding possibilities on recent pages, and I guess how the day plays out really determines it. Like, if I’m not elim’d here, then that means maybe the game can advance without it. If I am elim’d, then that’s probably what needed to happen.

Re: enchant, I feel like them along with roden and gamma are possible scum, but not as likely as implo/Titus in my mind. I’m not confident in Enchant being town (can one ever be confident in a read there?), but I do still lean that way. Not enough to sacrifice myself for that read though

[Wallflower]

VOTE: Enchant

I'm still fine with dying here, but if people are prepared to trust me (well, at least a little bit) then I'd rather stay

Didn’t you say, your slot needed to be resolved to advance the game? And weren’t you saying before that Enchant was your tr?

People seem a bit more open-minded regarding possibilities on recent pages, and I guess how the day plays out really determines it. Like, if I’m not elim’d here, then that means maybe the game can advance without it. If I am elim’d, then that’s probably what needed to happen.

Re: enchant, I feel like them along with roden and gamma are possible scum, but not as likely as implo/Titus in my mind. I’m not confident in Enchant being town (can one ever be confident in a read there?), but I do still lean that way. Not enough to sacrifice myself for that read though

I would really really like to know why Roden is scum? He’s like one of the most obvious townies. So here’s yet another reason why I think you will flip scum, Roden voyeured Enchant, confirmed his bp and that no one vidited him last night, so it makes absolutely no sense to me that town!you could both vote Enchant and sr Roden at the same time. Those reads are thoroughly inconsistent.

uh you can townread roden that's fine but I don't know what the voyeur thing has to do with it. He could have voyeured Enchant as scum too? but i also don't even actually have roden as top scum. Just.... there's nothing about him that's that town imo and this post is not at all convincing me otherwise

[Wallflower]

but seriously why is someone town because they have a role that they could have also just as easily had as scum? this is why I just wanted to get my flip over with and have people stop with the assumptions

[Wallflower]

I've said all along (well for the last couple of RL days) that roden, enchant and gamma are at a similar place in my reads. Not my top picks for scum but possible.

First I'm asked WHY IS ENCHANT A TOWNREAD???

Then I say the same thing as the first line that I said a while back

Then I'm asked WHY IS RODEN A SCUMREAD???

seriously

[Wallflower]

I've said all along (well for the last couple of RL days) that roden, enchant and gamma are at a similar place in my reads. Not my top picks for scum but possible.

First I'm asked WHY IS ENCHANT A TOWNREAD???

Then I say the same thing as the first line that I said a while back

Then I'm asked WHY IS RODEN A SCUMREAD???

seriously

Yes because you still haven’t explained that at all.

On balance, I think Roden is probably town. He hasn’t pinged me in the same way Titus and implosion have, but I often realise that I don’t actually think much about Roden. He’s not at the front of my mind, and I don’t think the reasons for townreading him are that solid. So, while he’s still more likely town than scum, he’s not as much of a townread as others.

On balance, I think Enchant is probably town. There are things about how Enchant has played that I think are quite townie for them (for e.g. the way that they went about the BP claim), but I don’t feel confident in my ability to read Enchant, and with a lot of people thinking they are scum, I have to admit there’s a reasonable chance I’m wrong. Sure, deep down I suspect that I am right, but I can’t be as confident in that as people I townread more.

[Wallflower]

yeah

[Wallflower]

Well done town!

I’m really terrible at night kills which might explain a few things, but the reason why I thought to kill HQ was the same reason ari protected her. Obvtown plus high in the draft order.

The Ausuka kill was because we were obv doomed and so I thought I’d bank on the off-chance that Ausuka decided to WIFOM target Ari.