Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Roden]

VOTE: Titus

[Roden]

Just random

[Roden]

1, 4, 4

I have a cool thought experiment I want to try.

Let's all write down which three numbers we would submit if we were running a scum team.

I will explain after everyone writes down their numbers how this will help us.

I will go first.

1, 3, 13

I'd probably try to be tactical and talk it out with the team first. If it was entirely my choice, probably 4, 11, 19. Since I think they would be uncommon low numbers. But one team mate having an unreasonably large number does have some strategic merit.

Actually, I'm guessing that's why STD asked me about my vote.

[Roden]

Who's delete?

[Roden]

Wow I hate almost everything that has been posted since I last checked this game

I don't understand why people were so averse to just giving three numbers that it required 6+ pages of arguments

[Roden]

VOTE: HEM

[Roden]

I do not have the answer.

1. it's not a deathtunnel
2. the game was focused on your experiment, it wasn't possible for me to get an ai read or associative read because the discussion was so sterile

Not trying to snipe, but we could've had little to no focus on the experiment and moved on 6 pages ago if people just submitted three numbers and let Ari do her thing. Instead we're now just focused on you two getting heated and fighting to prove that the other was being a big meanie about it.

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

i have a wagon based on a shit push. i think this is good for the gamestate.

Ok then question us.

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

this just assumed we are tvt. i realized you were voting me. so you don't actually believe i'm scum?

What part of "if you're not scum locking each other then call a truce and move on" translates as "I'm assuming you're TvT"?

[Roden]

If you actually care about putting focus back on the game as a whole then just call a truce and move on. Unless you think your 1v1 is pushing the game forward I guess but both of you don't appear to be scum locking each other.

this just assumed we are tvt. i realized you were voting me. so you don't actually believe i'm scum?

What part of "if you're not scum locking each other then call a truce and move on" translates as "I'm assuming you're TvT"?

your whole thing assumes that this 1v1 isn't moving the game forward if you're calling for us to have a truce and move on. aren't you improving your reads by watching us bicker? how have your read on me developed?

No I'm telling you to stop moaning and taking up space if you think the experiment and subsequent fight with Ari isn't going anywhere. I voted you because I thought your approach was scummy, but you two going back and forth isn't going to convince me one side is more right than the other. If you are TvT and you decide to shit fight all of Day 1 then scum get a free day and we get nothing but apathy and hurt feelings on Day 2. If it is TvS then I'd prefer that you two start interacting with others so you can spew and we can examine said spew if we get a red flip sometime down the road.

My read on you will develop when I see you do something other than repeatedly tell Ari how much she's tilting you and misrepping you and lying and whatever else you think she's doing. And vis versa with Ari as well.

[Roden]

I dont think there was enough from Dwlee to make Titus townread them

I feel the same but with this post

I had to double check I'd not written one of ausuka's posts. Them, delete and probably gamma are on my no elim pile for today.

[Roden]

Subject: White flag #824 game over

I think I wanna try something a bit different this game. During the first couple days of D1, I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town, working with them to try and form reads, push scum, and solve the game. I think in a setup like this, a tactic like what I’m suggesting could bear some tasty fruit.

I already have a my two picks kinda set in my head and I’d rather people make selections before interactions start to really get going, so to start us off I’m picking Infinity324 and MURDERCAT.

Subject: White flag #824 game over

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

The first two people to join me here will be hard town for the rest of D1

in the WF game I mentioned, I tried an alternative opening, like ari did here. Klick immediately acted subversive with it, going after me iirc for the exercise, and saying that his picks were based on who would vote me with him.
Here Klick specifically submitted "8, 8, 512" after some discussion about powers of 2 being noteworthy. I think that was a reactive and subversive response.

VOTE: Klick

[Roden]

VOTE: HEM

Back here. E-2.

[Roden]

anyone else think roden should have done more by now? I think that's the main one i'd like to pursue

?

What do you think I should be doing

[Roden]

Like is this a meta read?

[Roden]

i need a fucking job

anyone hiring?

I am

You can start by trimming the hedges

[Roden]

I feel like it's a vibe read with a splash of meta, an oz of not liking the fact you came in saying you hated the posts where people didn't do what ari asked, and a squeeze of your vote on HEM looking bad

Spoiler:

[Roden]

i need a fucking job

anyone hiring?

I am

You can start by trimming the hedges

My rate is $50 an hour

Alright cool

Will that interfere with hours from your other job? Your resume says you're currently "pushing off-wagon".

[Roden]

Honestly I'm just not sure what else I should be doing

I made it clear that I scum read HEM earlier but that I would let the read develop over time after seeing how he interacted with others

In the meantime Gamma's case on Klick looked strong enough to show my support

Then HEM interacted with others in a way that solidified my scum read, so I went back

[Roden]

I guess I'd like to see something from Klick and interact with them, but they're not here

[Roden]

Do you think Enchant/Mala/Klick should be doing more as well?

[Roden]

Nice we agree on something

[Roden]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

[Roden]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

[Roden]

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

Many factors influence my play. Rl, number of games I’m in, interest, investment, etc. In an extremely mech heavy game, I can get totally lost for example. But I still don’t know what you’re referring to if not my activity?

I think Gamma describes what I mean a bit better here:

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

The reason I'm asking is because you seem pretty chill and observant this game. I was curious if it's just something you try to emphasize more on this account, or if you're just in a good head space right now.

[Roden]

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

Well in one game I actively tried to alter my writing style. It didn’t work though, people still figured out who I was.

@Harley:

Random question. Do you purposely play different on this account? Not going to out who you are btw, I'm just wondering.

In what respect? Activity isn’t ai for me.

Nah I'm not referring to activity. Some people have certain vibes or attitudes they try to stick to when using certain accounts. Like some people have "serious", "confident", or "low effort" playstyles for designated accounts. Is "Harley Quinn" meant to be an account like that, or do you more or less play the same regardless of what you log into?

Many factors influence my play. Rl, number of games I’m in, interest, investment, etc. In an extremely mech heavy game, I can get totally lost for example. But I still don’t know what you’re referring to if not my activity?

I think Gamma describes what I mean a bit better here:

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

The reason I'm asking is because you seem pretty chill and observant this game. I was curious if it's just something you try to emphasize more on this account, or if you're just in a good head space right now.

I’m not adapting my play to this account and I don’t play the same way every game. I legit hope I never have to ever go through again what I did in HDP. That game was sheer hell for me and I was crying constantly.

Gotcha, assuming good head space then.

[Roden]

On one of my outed alts I tend to practice less precise grammar, I use less caps and less punctuation, I also go for a kinda chill good-guy vibe, I would put it
So the question is do you do any of that? From my perception I don’t believe you do but maybe I am unaware of something.

Well in one game I actively tried to alter my writing style. It didn’t work though, people still figured out who I was.

Gamma, Is this helping you solve Harley?

If not I would suggest moving on here. This is treading towards alt outing and I don’t like that.

I don’t really see that at all?

I guess it’s maybe because I would rather keep things in game and I know who you are iirc having played with you before and I’ve seen people lose alts that way.

Yeah but I don’t see why you think anything Gamma said even borders on trying to out me.

Not all alt outing is intentional.

It’s more why I asked Gamma if they needed that to sort you.

I’ve had plenty an alt burnt by well meaning people so I defend against that.

It was actually me that was asking Harley about alts. Gamma just added to the conversation.

[Roden]

I am okay with an HEM wagon and am in fact on the wagon

You seem ready to jump ship the moment someone else starts getting pressured though.

[Roden]

I feel stronger about HEM flipping scum and if HEM flips town your scum equity goes down by a lot so it makes literally no sense for me to try to flip you today.

I kinda disagree with this. Nobody joined Gamma and me on Klick's wagon when HEM started gaining momentum, if scum wanted to save HEM they would just make Klick a counter wagon. Imo scum is either fine with the HEM wagon, or didn't want to endorse a Klick counter wagon because then it would be SvS.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

[Roden]

I feel stronger about HEM flipping scum and if HEM flips town your scum equity goes down by a lot so it makes literally no sense for me to try to flip you today.

I kinda disagree with this. Nobody joined Gamma and me on Klick's wagon when HEM started gaining momentum, if scum wanted to save HEM they would just make Klick a counter wagon. Imo scum is either fine with the HEM wagon, or didn't want to endorse a Klick counter wagon because then it would be SvS.

That’s my point

Instead there’s three wagons (or were when I repped in)

That’s indicative of something just not sure what

Nobody had momentum besides HEM. No one cared about Klick and the votes on Ari were stagnant.

I feel stronger about HEM flipping scum and if HEM flips town your scum equity goes down by a lot so it makes literally no sense for me to try to flip you today.

I kinda disagree with this. Nobody joined Gamma and me on Klick's wagon when HEM started gaining momentum, if scum wanted to save HEM they would just make Klick a counter wagon. Imo scum is either fine with the HEM wagon, or didn't want to endorse a Klick counter wagon because then it would be SvS.

I kind of disagree as a matter of course with this type of analysis; I think it's reductive. "If scum wanted to save HEM they would just counterwagon". What if scum weren't online at the time? What if the scumteam is HEM and 2 of {Enchant, Mala, Bella, Dwlee} - players who are either lurking or avoiding being majorly committal? What if the scumteam is HEM, one of those players and someone else on the HEM wagon who's currently committed to the bus?

Scum also can't just go "wee, counterwagon" willy-nilly - if they're the third vote on a Klick wagon and HEM flips scum, their vote's gonna be scrutinized. Heck, it'll probably be scrutinized in the moment.

I mean if that's the case with lurkers and HEM flips red and Math flips green, it sounds like we have a solid PoE. If HEM's getting bussed then I'll take the free red flip, I don't image anyone is getting lock towned just for voting HEM, especially when some of the votes were blank votes.

[Roden]

Man I should have hit preview, my grammar is shit

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

I am not using BoP. If I am sure enough that I'm willing to BoP my life on it, I will say so.

Me and mathblade have played a total of four games together. (2 TvT and 2 TvS)

in two of them he was scum who was making up mech nonsense - mini 2226 and micro 1053

in one of them he rep'd into a mason slot and claimed mason

in the other one of them he rep'd into an mech confirmed investigated innocent slot that was force replaced because previous player decided to try to use unfair means to townspew himself.

At no point have I ever had to actually read for Town!Mathblade, so his thing about me getting his alignment correct is just nonsensical.

It is for this account. I can’t refute this without alt outing you.

So yes, this is technically correct, but spiritually a lie.

This is why I really dislike arguing with scum!you/not listening you.

Just to be clear, are you claiming that you two have played together more than just the four games Ari mentioned? If you include other accounts?

[Roden]

Alt outing isn't necessary btw

[Roden]

Spoiler: Ari

mathblade have we ever played a game where you were right about mech and I was wrong?

it feels like the only time I ever have mech disagreements with you are when you're scum and trying to make up random nonsense.

Is there a single time we've been t/t and disagreed on mech and you've actually been right?

literally the only times you spend lots of thread time fighting with me over mech in a way that makes no sense to me is when you're scum and making shit up.

for example:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89351

and

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87284

Spoiler: Math

right now my scum team guess is just enchant - hem - you

Ausuka, Gamma, Titus, STD are my strongest TRs

Dwlee, Bella are townleans.

Roden, Mala, Implo, Harley are null

Cool

Then you’re scum because imho 2/3rds of that are bad almost certainly

So I think I might be right for the wrong reason.

And Ari isn’t that bad as town. You’re just not

VOTE: Ari

I don’t think this ever picks up today and it’s more posterity but I feel confident enough here to vote.

except every time you wasted my time with a mech argument that's senseless you've been scum so why would I townread you for it this time?

Because we aren’t arguing over mech

We are arguing over scum theory and what players would and wouldn’t do

And it’s not been a waste of time

I forgot how much I hate playing with scum you because when I am not scum I have the charisma of nothing because I don’t know the lay of the land

But how about you prove it and vote me?

I flip town then you go brag about how “right” you are

Then you flip tomorrow.

Chicken?

Math's scum read on Ari feels really fake. She uses meta to scum read him first, and he retaliates by doing the same back. And he suddenly acts like he "knows" she's scum.

They're both using Burden of Proficiency for their meta reads, which typically I hate but I hate Math's more. Claiming "every time we disagree/you're wrong on mech it's because you're scum" and then providing examples at the very least has a basis in reality. But Math simply saying "you're never bad town so you have to be scum" is just, awful.

She is or is in a place where she won’t talk with me

So I have quit responding to her for the night

It would be like you all of a sudden posting one liners

It’s a huge difference when she’s wrong

I think she was trying to talk to you, honestly you're both saying the same thing in different ways. But she got tilted which tilted you in return.

What I don't get is why you're saying she's wrong. Like unless I misread it looks like you're saying her reads are wrong, but it's Day 1 so I'm not sure how you could know that. Like at best I could understand heavily disagreeing with her reads, but flat out saying she's wrong doesn't make sense to me.

What exactly is wrong with her reads?

I really don’t get that vibe.

I feel like she had an agenda of spewing the mechanical things for a reason. It’s what I do as scum, spin individually factually correct statements. By talking on mech she avoids having to actually play a social game

She’s wrong = heavily disagreeing. There’s always a chance I am wrong, but the odds of that are slim.
There’s something HEM did that I extremely doubt that the scum team would permit him to do.

She’s like put her buckets in an HEM world I don’t think she wants to consider being wrong.

I don't think she's avoiding playing a social game. I get your point about focusing on mechanics = scummy, but her ISO shows her talking about more than just mechanics and interacting with a decent amount of the player list.

Which of her reads do you heavily disagree with besides HEM?

Also what did HEM do that you think the scum team wouldn't permit him to do?

[Roden]

What's the double slit experiment btw? Is it relevant to the game or should I just google it?

[Roden]

Aye, purge time.

VOTE: Aris

This is a fun game lmao

[Roden]

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

The number theory Titus has is meaningless because hypothetically scum could pick the same number to look unaligned, especially a single digit number. Not saying either are scum especially based on this but her theory is not good.

They could, but it's unlikely given they'd sabotage themselves to be near the bottom

I kinda feel Titus and Dwlee

Titus never answered me why not on Dwlee.

And Dwlee is pretty quiet

Why are they scum?

Last time they were scum they ignored my questions

This time they are

Pattern emerges

Dwlee or Titus?

I already said this somewhere. No repeats and Roden is scummy.

Currently catching up and I'm hoping Titus at some point actually cases me instead of just vaguely shading me while off wagon.

[Roden]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

[Roden]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

This is literally what I said??

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

Why are you lying?

[Roden]

Eh, I actually agree with a lot of that. Can you explain why hq is town instead of just....nice?

It's weird, I see a.few people feeling bad about Roden bit not much pressure. Are people just resigned to a hem elim.today?

You can certainly counter wagon HEM by voting me if you think that's a good plan of action.

I don't think anyone is "resigned" to voting HEM, he's getting pretty heavily scum read by a bunch of people myself included. I'm voting HEM because I think he's scum and he isn't doing anything to town tell. Do you disagree?

[Roden]

I’m really not trying to be either argumentative or difficult but there are some games where I’ve done things that are pretty much impossible for me to ever replicate as scum and HDP is definitely one of those games and imo, anyone. not being able to clearly see I was town in that, isn’t imho okay at reading me. If you misread me in a game where it is far less obvious than that one, I’d view it differently.

I think it's just because posts like these more likely come from town!you vs scum!you.

[Roden]

I’m really not trying to be either argumentative or difficult but there are some games where I’ve done things that are pretty much impossible for me to ever replicate as scum and HDP is definitely one of those games and imo, anyone. not being able to clearly see I was town in that, isn’t imho okay at reading me. If you misread me in a game where it is far less obvious than that one, I’d view it differently.

I think it's just because posts like these more likely come from town!you vs scum!you.

To add on to this, I don't really get the sense that you're trying to get town read. I think you're just vibing in this game and suspicious of the fact that you're getting town read for it vs when you do actively try to get town read and don't succeed.

[Roden]

I had a look at the playerlist and Roden is the only one who'll get this so I'll ask him

@Roden

, should I do that thing I did in radio buzz where I reread the game with my top TRs locked in and figured out who looked suspect based on that consideration?

I don't think it would hurt. In Radio Buzz, the town block formed early on and scum couldn't figure out how to break in. Though in my case the posting was also just a bit too much for me to keep up, which doesn't seem like too big of a problem in this game. If nothing else, I think looking at your town block and then seeing who's trying to discredit it and break it up would be helpful.

[Roden]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

This is literally what I said??

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

Why are you lying?

Titus Dwlee Gamma? I was tring them before but I don’t like how they volunteered they aren’t TRing me yet are off HEM. That disconnect is weird.

I think if any of those are off I look at Harley and implosion.

Did you quote the wrong post?

[Roden]

Titus is there any particular reason you've created this weird dichotomy between me and Dwlee? I don't see any particular reason why you would think there's one scum between the two of us. And sorry but it's major stretch to say Dwlee has had an "impact" or that they've tried to, this just feels like typical Day 1 effort Dwlee.

The vibe you're giving off is that since you think one of us is scum that we should be in opposition to each other, but I don't have any particular interest in proving myself to be townier than them. I have zero interest in pursuing them at all today as they're usually a slow burn read for me nowadays. If Dwlee has anything to pursue me on they'll do it of their own accord, not because you trying to nudge us into a fight.

This is absolutely not my position.

My position is that you're not S v S.
I feel that you're scummy and therefore Dwlee is town.

I could still be wrong on you, hence why my vote isn't on you.

This is literally what I said??

Roden still has no drive to solve. HEM should be the lim.

this feels patently false

Roden just appeared and his only posting was a misrep so far.

Why are you lying?

Titus Dwlee Gamma? I was tring them before but I don’t like how they volunteered they aren’t TRing me yet are off HEM. That disconnect is weird.

I think if any of those are off I look at Harley and implosion.

Did you quote the wrong post?

Nope I wanted your opinion on that solve

I've seen town!Titus just be completely off her game before, so her scum reading me and using wrong info doesn't automatically make her scum.

Dwlee is a slow burn read for me like I've said before. I don't see anything particularly scummy or opportunistic about them so far, so I'd say null town for now.

Gamma feels pretty town. I think he's poking around a lot and he's felt pretty solvey. I share some similar reads and takes to him, so I don't ever want to pursue an elim there today.

[Roden]

HEM can you give us a reads list

[Roden]

Why do you scum read Gamma?

[Roden]

Why do you scum read Gamma?

Because I don’t tr him yet

It’s hard to explain a negative

Not tr him YET=putting him in your PoE?

For Gamma yes

I usually can TR Gamma early

The fact I can’t is suspicious

There’s nothing inherently scummy but Gamma isn’t town pinging

Why not null? Maybe we just sort people differently, but if nothing stands out as AI then a null read would make more sense imo.

[Roden]

idk
but I dislike how he's being hard to work with when it comes to explaining reads
which is ironic because I think he pushed StD for that earlier

I don’t really see a point right now

HEM is the de facto elim

No one is going to change their minds

From HEM’s flip and who scum kill I can see where to go from here

I likely don’t die

There just literally is no point in it

I'm only up to page 19 atm (it feels like it's 70% Ari vs. HEM gosh) so obviously the vibe could have drastically changed or something, but just looking at recent posts, time to deadline, vote count etc. from an external perspective, this sort of resignation to HEM being flipped when you think they're town seems... excessive?

It’s more everyone has not wanted to discuss my scumreads in Dwlee and Titus

And I am incapable of explaining my HEM TR so yeah I am just waiting for the flip or when people want to discuss wagons or try having a second wagon today.

It just sort of is what it is

I don't think anyone said they don't want to talk about your scum reads. As far as what you said to me, you just kinda asked me what I thought of a Titus/Dwlee/Gamma team, and while I mostly disagreed with it I didn't say the first two were impossible by any means. I didn't get a response to it at all actually.

After I died in Flash Games I still kept up a bit and saw what you had to say about my read on Titus, so I know you can expound on what makes her scummy and when you think someone is reading her incorrectly.

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

And if you really think HEM is town then you need to explain it, it's not worth hiding why you TR him if he gets mis-elim'd. You're not even implying that it would break any rules to explain it, so I don't get why you would hold back there.

[Roden]

He moved the game towards talking reads and instead of working on reads y’all dog piled on HEM for asking the purpose rather than dragging it down in RVS mech theories

This isn't true. I had to tell him to move on multiple times because he kept complaining about the numbers and Ari in general. He didn't want to move the game towards working on reads and instead preferred to keep arguing with Ari and make the Day's focus about their 1v1.

[Roden]

Dwlee’s entire ISO is devoid of any hunting/content except me/HEM scum. There’s no hunting

You’re the first to talk about my read on Dwlee in a long while.

Dwlee is usually way more active as town than scum.

The fact no one else is noticing this makes them scum

???

I tried to engage on you Dwlee and didn't get a response.

idk
but I dislike how he's being hard to work with when it comes to explaining reads
which is ironic because I think he pushed StD for that earlier

I don’t really see a point right now

HEM is the de facto elim

No one is going to change their minds

From HEM’s flip and who scum kill I can see where to go from here

I likely don’t die

There just literally is no point in it

I'm only up to page 19 atm (it feels like it's 70% Ari vs. HEM gosh) so obviously the vibe could have drastically changed or something, but just looking at recent posts, time to deadline, vote count etc. from an external perspective, this sort of resignation to HEM being flipped when you think they're town seems... excessive?

It’s more everyone has not wanted to discuss my scumreads in Dwlee and Titus

And I am incapable of explaining my HEM TR so yeah I am just waiting for the flip or when people want to discuss wagons or try having a second wagon today.

It just sort of is what it is

I don't think anyone said they don't want to talk about your scum reads. As far as what you said to me, you just kinda asked me what I thought of a Titus/Dwlee/Gamma team, and while I mostly disagreed with it I didn't say the first two were impossible by any means. I didn't get a response to it at all actually.

After I died in Flash Games I still kept up a bit and saw what you had to say about my read on Titus, so I know you can expound on what makes her scummy and when you think someone is reading her incorrectly.

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

And if you really think HEM is town then you need to explain it, it's not worth hiding why you TR him if he gets mis-elim'd. You're not even implying that it would break any rules to explain it, so I don't get why you would hold back there.

[Roden]

@Ari:

Could you go into a little more detail here on why you think Math could just be wrong town and not scum?

He feels really weird this game and I don't get it. I've played with Math many times now, and no matter his alignment he generally feels competent and convincing with what he says. I've only ever felt a disconnect with him twice: the first time I played with him and he was scum, and one time when he was town but I was heavily pocketed. This game, I just feel like what he's saying doesn't match reality, but I don't get why he'd play this way as scum.

[Roden]

He moved the game towards talking reads and instead of working on reads y’all dog piled on HEM for asking the purpose rather than dragging it down in RVS mech theories

This isn't true. I had to tell him to move on multiple times because he kept complaining about the numbers and Ari in general. He didn't want to move the game towards working on reads and instead preferred to keep arguing with Ari and make the Day's focus about their 1v1.

In particular, if hem's aim was to move the game toward talking about reads... why has he done so little talking about reads?

I don't remember who but someone said earlier that HEM's posting has just been aesthetic. I feel like that perfectly describes why it seems like he's had so little investment in making and discussing reads.

@ Roden,.I know you didn't ask me but this is exactly how math played in the team mafia game and they were town.

Do you think he's severely off with his reads and arguments? How would you describe his play in Team Mafia? I want to make sure we're on the same page here.

[Roden]

Math, do you think I'm ignoring you?

[Roden]

(expired on 2022-06-12 02:24:25)

I want to see if something happens.

Call me curious.

?

[Roden]

mathblade tried pretty hard to derail the hem wagon he screamed, he was rude, he flung weird moonlogic everywhere - thats a sign of geniune belief imo and makes very little sense for scum!blade to do for town!hem

has hem done anything to derail the mathblade wagon?

HEM has been out of commission

yes but read his iso

he doesnt really defend mathblade even when he is here

This feels pretty important and I think it needs some emphasis on why this is AI

HEM's latest take is that wagons are getting pushed by scum to try to out PRs. However, he's pretty low on the draft list, so it doesn't make much sense to push him just to get info on where PRs are, and he continued to be a leading wagon even after he claimed VT anyway. The only other notable wagons were Ari, who never claimed since her wagon died early, Dwlee, who's even lower than HEM and also didn't claim, and Math, who didn't claim but is at the bottom of the draft and has no real chance to snag a PR. The narrative that scum are pushing wagons to PR hunt just doesn't make much sense.

Despite this, he tried to take his town read back on Math recently even though he had him as lock town earlier, and should be considered town if scum are hunting for PRs like he claimed. What I think is really going on is that he realized his logic was inherently flawed and that he needs to anti-spew his "read" on Math in case he gets elim'd first.

[Roden]

You are the top poster. You're definitely not lurking either.

I have trouble seeing you "playing" when you can't put together a townblock of people you wouldn't eliminate. Maybe the word choice is bad but it feels more like you're seeking to win arguments than see people's thought processes and orchestrate theories of the game.

Yeahhhh I think this is what's happening. Math has been spending time arguing with people who heavily disagree with him and just think he's wrong or scum. I've tried multiple times to try to engage him on his reads and he just keeps ignoring me to fight with whoever is disagreeing the loudest.

[Roden]

HEM + Math would be convenient and easy

I kinda think Math is town just because there has been such a massive divide on him. I feel like I've been put in this weird spot where I'm a bit of a swing vote, and have had several different people try to convince me of their reads on him.

[Roden]

i towncased implo. i scumcased dwlee. i towncased math, and asked everyone what happened about that. and yet people keep on twisting my shit to mean that it's scum. no one engages me. i ask ari to describe my town meta and she just regurgitates her "but you lied" even though i did a whole post to debunk that.

at this point there's really no point to playing this game anymore especially since im way behind and that's being used against me as "antispew". if everyone is resigned to flipping me before the gamestate moves on then i suggest just go ahead with it.

There's been plenty of reasons given for why you're getting scum read that you're not responding to.

i think ari has been bad faith with her meta and her push on me. she shows no signs of reconsideration even though i engaged her about it.

I really really hate that you keep repeating this and "Ari won't town case me". Nobody has to town case you. Ari's scum read on you isn't any less legitimate just because she won't town case you or reconsider her read. That's such a ridiculous stance to have and I've literally never seen town!you demand something like that in your past town games.

[Roden]

im not asking ari to town case me. im asking her to describe my town meta.

Do you think you're playing to your town meta this game?

If you're claiming that you are playing to your town meta, and you want Ari to describe your town meta, you are effectively asking her to town case you.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

I had a feeling Ari was your third. I've generally town read her all of today, I don't really think she's scum here and the double bus seems a bit unnecessary if both HEM and Math flip red. I don't think she has much justification to not be NK'd before ELo, so I feel like that would just be a losing strategy for her. Also I'm still not completely sold on Math, but I think you've made a lot of solid points. I want to see how he reacts and what he'll do Day 2 before I decide there.

[Roden]

Math I think there's a good chance you're town here, but yes you were absolutely very scummy yesterday and a bit at Day start today

[Roden]

Also i think MATH is town.

So don't vote Math. Thanks.

I am not claiming anything.

Just thinking Math is town

I think unless Wallflower checks in and claims to have JK'd/RB'd Math, then Math and Titus are TvT. I say that because she's the only one left who hasn't checked in. It would make today super easy if she did block the kill, but if not it's looking like someone chose Doctor and saved someone. And in that case the Doc can conftown someone if necessary.

[Roden]

Also i think MATH is town.

So don't vote Math. Thanks.

I am not claiming anything.

Just thinking Math is town

I think unless Wallflower checks in and claims to have JK'd/RB'd Math, then Math and Titus are TvT. I say that because she's the only one left who hasn't checked in. It would make today super easy if she did block the kill, but if not it's looking like someone chose Doctor and saved someone. And in that case the Doc can conftown someone if necessary.

Huh would it make today super easy? I mean there's still no way of knowing if it was doc/JK/something else I guess that would block the kill right?

I think it's safe for JK to claim a potential guilty since they can be protected by a Doc if they do exist. JK likely doesn't claim though if they targeted a town read slot. And in the case of us having a RB then they essentially have a hard guilty unless a potential JK also targeted a scummy slot.

Also i think MATH is town.

So don't vote Math. Thanks.

I am not claiming anything.

Just thinking Math is town

I think unless Wallflower checks in and claims to have JK'd/RB'd Math, then Math and Titus are TvT. I say that because she's the only one left who hasn't checked in. It would make today super easy if she did block the kill, but if not it's looking like someone chose Doctor and saved someone. And in that case the Doc can conftown someone if necessary.

No way town math wouldn't check me.

Check you with what? Cop?

[Roden]

Sorry everyone, had a busy start to the morning and still need to read up but I did not JK/RB math if that helps?

Good to know. We can assume either Doc protected someone or the JK protected a town read. If RB exists instead of Doc, they're likely scum since they didn't claim a guilty.

[Roden]

Check you with what? Cop?

Right

Ah, well he most likely isn't Cop, or a PR at all tbh since he's at the bottom of the draft. But yeah I agree that he always checks you in that situation.

Why did you think you were shot?

[Roden]

Check you with what? Cop?

Right

Ah, well he most likely isn't Cop, or a PR at all tbh since he's at the bottom of the draft. But yeah I agree that he always checks you in that situation.

Why did you think you were shot?

In a bit of arrogance, because my solve is right at least on Mathblade and Ari or my only two other compromise slots contain scum. Most likely my theory is just right and scum know I am a dog with a bone.

Do you believe that if one of them is scum, they always shoot you last night? What are the chances of WIFOM there? Does it make much sense to keep you alive to make you doubt your read on them?

[Roden]

Check you with what? Cop?

Right

Ah, well he most likely isn't Cop, or a PR at all tbh since he's at the bottom of the draft. But yeah I agree that he always checks you in that situation.

Why did you think you were shot?

In a bit of arrogance, because my solve is right at least on Mathblade and Ari or my only two other compromise slots contain scum. Most likely my theory is just right and scum know I am a dog with a bone.

Do you believe that if one of them is scum, they always shoot you last night? What are the chances of WIFOM there? Does it make much sense to keep you alive to make you doubt your read on them?

If Math is scum, yes. Math knows that I will demand more than he is capable of as scum. Is there a possibility he's town. Yes. But given he matches his scum meta and can't support any of his reads, I don't see why to change. The policy lim threat on me is a bonus.

I want to see some dialogue from him if he's town. I don’t see how a conversation is "hoop after hoop". Town!Math would love engaging on VCA but just isn't giving it to me. Instead he whines that I'm spamming.

I'm trying to give him every opportunity to explain reads in a conversational fashion. A readwall with reasons works too if he'd rather keep the post count down.

I just need something.

In fact, if I give Math what he wants, that actually makes it easier to lim him because people won't view his lack of content as stress induced and have less sympathy for him. Posting a simple idea repeatedly causes people to entrench. If I was going to eliminate him without listening, I'd shut up after making my initial point. However, my initial point doesn't give him much to defend himself with and results in a tunnel fight. So I'm giving him every chance to put forth any intelligent, reasoned and non-OMGUS reads before I tune out.

Alright.

I claim Voyeur. Titus, I targeted you last night. Nobody else visited you last night, so if Math wasn't blocked in any way then he has to be town.

I'm claiming now for a couple reasons. I think you two are TvT and I think it would be more helpful if you got on the same page sooner rather than later. Plus, Voyeur is a low priority threat to scum anyway since it only has niche uses, so I'm not particularly afraid of scum knowing my role. And if they want to kill or block me, then other PRs get to put in work for free which is fine by me.

[Roden]

Math I think there's a good chance you're town here, but yes you were absolutely very scummy yesterday and a bit at Day start today

if we're not gonna go after math today I wanna look at Wallflower
her vote on HEM looks like it could be a bus vote and she's been absent this day phase so far

I want to ISO dive her today, I honestly don't remember much of her play other than sounding reasonable with her takes. If she bussed HEM then her progression on him might spew that.

[Roden]

i mean i guess I could be wrong and there's no voyeur and scum are informed of that but it feels so gambitty for him to do and scum really have no incentive to defuse this titus v mathblade conflict

Speaking of that, can we talk about HEM's VT claim? I've been confused why he did that if scum chose to be Informed. He didn't even try to bait out a counter claim to a pair he knew was in the game.

[Roden]

Kinda just talking out loud here but like, why didn't scum jump on Klick when Gamma and I voted there early on when Ari vs HEM was losing steam? I really think the slot is town at this point, so it's weird that the wagon there didn't get any momentum until Math replaced in and hard defended HEM. I'm not any good at VCA, but I feel like the VCs around the time Math replaced in have to be important. It's just weird for scum to ignore a wagon on someone who's barely present, but then potentially push them when they defend one of your scum buddies.

[Roden]

Would scum picking informed imply they didn't get a good draft?

I've been thinking that as well. HEM being a Goon despite being higher up on the draft than me implies he was desperate to get a decent PR but failed, which makes me think scum got unlucky with the draft. Otherwise, having a PR at all is good without Multitasking, since having a confirmable night action is semi-clearing.

Kinda surprised HEM didn't take Neighborizer tbh. It's a pretty strong scum PR imo.

I claim Voyeur. Titus, I targeted you last night. Nobody else visited you last night, so if Math wasn't blocked in any way then he has to be town.

No. Even if I wasn’t shot, Math has a partner. However, your position makes sense.

Math's partner doesn't shoot when Math is literally at the bottom of the draft and has to be a Goon. Unless the team is Oops All Goons lol.

[Roden]

What's scummy about STD?

[Roden]

Oh. Well GG then.

VOTE: Math

[Roden]

I'm fine with not speed limming but uh, that's kind of damning evidence

[Roden]

What’s really odd is Enchant crumbed reads here that they cop checked me

That’s impossible if I was jailkept

Enchant would get no result

Cop checks aren't blocked if their target is Jailed, that's what an Alien does

PE: ninja

[Roden]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

StD is one slot above you....StD is very likely roleless. Please stop with mech.

No.

He legit got his role imho.

He’s been very consistent in his crumbs

Idk why but you frantically insisting that STD is a PR is hilarious to me lmao

It's just so unnecessary and over the top

[Roden]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

StD is one slot above you....StD is very likely roleless. Please stop with mech.

No.

He legit got his role imho.

He’s been very consistent in his crumbs

Idk why but you frantically insisting that STD is a PR is hilarious to me lmao

It's just so unnecessary and over the top

Because I know Titus

After I die and flip town she’ll still be the nosy self she is and won’t reevaluate anything

So she’ll repeat this D3 flip implosion who after this shit show wouldn’t surprise me flips town

Then one of the vigs takes her out for being goddamn annoying

Which will be protown whatever her alignment is

Ok but what does that have to do with you claiming that STD is a PR

[Roden]

Ok but why do you need to claim that

Why can't STD just claim if he gets run up

[Roden]

That doesn't explain why you exposing a PR now, when he isn't getting run up, will make it more believable than if he gets run up and claims

[Roden]

I'm a little late and just caught up but I also disagree with the mass claim

HEM claiming VT makes me think either the Informed option did nothing because all pairs got taken, or the only available PR pair was somehow a priority pair and the entire scum team rolled too low in the draft to feasibly get it. HEM actually being a Goon despite having a decent spot on the draft heavily implies he was desperate to get a good PR, which means the scum team generally didn't place well in the draft. So it's possible they are all Goons, or 1 PR + 2 Goons.

If I'm right about that, outting the PRs just gives scum an advantage since it'll be mostly/all townies anyway. They'll just be better informed on where to shoot and avoid VTs entirely.

[Roden]

Also I can confirm Enchant as BP tonight with my Voyeur if necessary. Or well "confirm" since if it fails I'll know he's Ascetic. If my check works then we know he isn't Ascetic and most likely town. If he's scum, picking Ascetic is a better choice than BP mechanically, so I think scum fake claiming BP while actually being Ascetic is possible. But I don't think scum ever actually picks BP.

[Roden]

Technically, Math, it's possible you targeted Enchant and got double blocked by BP

and

JK.

[Roden]

I do not see a single reason why anyone should be townreading Enchant on play or mech

I don't town read him. I'm confirming his pick tonight, then deciding what to do from there.

[Roden]

@Roden

do you see what I'm seeing?

VOTE: mathblade
thinking this is radio buzz v2 (2 scum wagoned D1, weird shit with a doctor CC where presumably both slots involved are town)

Yeah I'm seeing it. Math's play this game has been so fucking weird, I don't understand what he's doing or why if he's town. At this point I feel like he's just scum purposely trying to create town apathy by spamming the thread and posting the same shit over and over. Every time I try to catch up on the game it's just ten more pages of Math arguing with someone about how he's right even though he was dead wrong on HEM. Like I think he should've realized he needs to take a step back and let the game breathe, and that because he was so wrong Day 1 maybe realize he's fallible and should be willing to listen to other perspectives.

Aristeia is so obviously town it hurts

Any "misplaced confidence" claims are also hilarious because Aristeia is one of the only people I see that is consistently right when she thinks she is right

I've been feeling this since the numbers thing at the beginning of the game. Idk why there's been so much backlash to practically everything she says, but it's really annoying. I'm not saying to just let her run the game and blindly follow her or anything like that, but man not everything needs to be a 20 page argument where the same three people repeat themselves over and over and the rest of the player list says "still catching up, I'll check in later". Yes I'm exaggerating a bit but that's what I've mainly been seeing this game. I don't get why this game's been so miserable to read either when town clearly has a massive advantage with PRs and a Day 1 scum elim.

[Roden]

Nobody dead...? That's interesting.

I was wondering if I should wait to give my results, but I guess it would be obvious if I'm not auto voting Enchant. I got results, so yeah he's BP and needs to start playing more. Scum didn't shoot there btw, so either Doc or JK stopped the kill.

PE: Interesting, idk if scum makes Wallflower do the kill though since she's been getting sus'd recently.

[Roden]

Well at least we can finish the mass claim since no one died

[Roden]

MathBlade has been yeeted day 2. he was a

vanilla townie

.

the sun sets, it is now night 2. sunrise in (expired on 2022-06-17 12:15:00).

Why did you guys rush the day again. I told you all he was locktown.

Nothing against Math here, he's a great player, but he was drowning everyone in posts and making it difficult for lower post players to maintain a presence. I don't think Gamma meant to hammer him though.

[Roden]

Nobody dead...? That's interesting.

I was wondering if I should wait to give my results, but I guess it would be obvious if I'm not auto voting Enchant. I got results, so yeah he's BP and needs to start playing more. Scum didn't shoot there btw, so either Doc or JK stopped the kill.

PE: Interesting, idk if scum makes Wallflower do the kill though since she's been getting sus'd recently.

Well, if not Enchant, I’m guessing Ausuka or Ari most likely targets?

Idk but I don’t believe scum no killed.

No one was sussing her yesterday, were they?

Bellaphant did.

I still think wallflower could really easily be scum!

[Roden]

MathBlade has been yeeted day 2. he was a

vanilla townie

.

the sun sets, it is now night 2. sunrise in (expired on 2022-06-17 12:15:00).

Why did you guys rush the day again. I told you all he was locktown.

Nothing against Math here, he's a great player, but he was drowning everyone in posts and making it difficult for lower post players to maintain a presence. I don't think Gamma meant to hammer him though.

I know but it’s extremely disheartening when I know someone is absolutely locktown by meta. Scum!Math would never sacrifice himself like that.

I do get that, but even he knew that he was the best elim, even if it was wrong. It was still gave us good info, like how we now know for sure that either you or Enchant were shot on N1.

[Roden]

Roden used watcher on me?

... Why in the hell.

Voyeur. I was mainly checking to see if you were really BP, finding out you weren't targeted by the NK is just extra info. I wasn't expecting you to get shot though.

[Roden]

how does roden know enchant is bp?

I don't technically, I only know that he isn't Ascetic Cop since I successfully got results.

[Roden]

I don't think any of those VTs have been particularly scummy tbh.

[Roden]

Didn't want to say it out loud but I kinda expected you to pick Vengeful.

[Roden]

I just don't have much to say right now. This is basically Day 2.5 in terms of what the conversations have been about, and I already gave my perspective on current arguments and mech talk awhile ago. I'm mainly just waiting for WF to flip so I can figure out if this game is gonna be easy or hard. Several alignments also get confirmed by tomorrow, and I'm more interested in seeing that.

[Roden]

Ari, Ausuka, Dwlee, Bella, Roden, Gamma all town. I’m very convinced of this. Titus, probably, Implosion maybe? STD who knows?

Who else is left other than Enchant?

You don't really want to see me walts with conftown status while bulletproof, do you?

You're not conftown, we've been saying you were going to get elim'd on Day 4 since the start of the game.

Who's scum?

[Roden]

What would the endgame of that even look like. Imagine every VT claim spontaneously combusted and flipped VT.

That's STD, Titus, Bella, Dwlee.

We'd be left with me, HQ, ari, roden, Ausuka, Enchant, Gamma. I have a hard time imagining what the game even looks like from there.

Worth mentioning that Roden's role is actually somewhat relevant with 1 scum left - if Roden targets the same person as Ausuka, and there is a kill, and Roden sees Ausuka jailing, then Ausuka becomes conftown. Similarly Ari. I mean if Enchant isn't scum then there's a good chance whoever scum is at this point is just deciding to play the game nightlessly so this might not even be relevant.

I did see Enchant get JK'd btw. Pretty sure Ausuka is already conftown though with Wallflower elim.

[Roden]

so

just

kill

enchant?

Agreed.

VOTE: Enchant

[Roden]

VOTE: Enchant

I guess it was optimal play for scum to nokill here but like

Whatever lol let's just Lim enchant and not be boring

Jailing save the dragons tonight

If Enchant is town, I think scum actually fucked up here by going for a no kill. There's too many conftowns for them to win even if they somehow make it to ELo. Ari, Ausuka, Harley are 100% conftown, and I plan to target Gamma tonight to check if he's actually 1-shot Vig or really PGO. If I live then he's confirmed to be Vig and very likely town for trying to shoot Math on N1. If I die then he's either PGO and confscum, or the real scum shot me to frame him and whoever Ausuka jails tonight is conftown. Either way, we gain a conftown.

End game just consists of conftown and consensus town reads at that point, as we'll have plenty of time to cut through the VT claims. Scum just doesn't have enough time to remove all the threats to their victory at this point.

[Roden]

I figured Active meant it's always on. Is it just activate only?

[Roden]

I think if it was always on it'd be a passive power, I'm pretty sure active means he can actively choose to be a PGO two nights in the game?

that is how 2 shot PGO works I think.

Also he could simply be a mafia vig who never shot.

I don't think he is mafia though

Oof, alright then checking him does nothing. Targeting who you JK each night is probably just the best option.

[Roden]

I'm fine with that plan. And tbh I didn't even realize that I helped mech guilt Wallflower there.

I still think it's just Enchant tbh, but if people want to vote STD just in case then fine.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Roden]

if you wanna kill me you can kill me if it's easier i think this game is pretty much won for town

Do you think scum!STD makes this post?

He had no votes on him at the time?

It's not impossible for scum to say. Wallflower looked townie yesterday but everything she said was ultimately NAI, she kinda just had to say what she did and the same is true for scum!STD. Or really scum!anyone this game. Best play for scum right now is to let the pitchfork mob have their way and be amicable.

:/

I'm fine with that plan. And tbh I didn't even realize that I helped mech guilt Wallflower there.

I still think it's just Enchant tbh, but if people want to vote STD just in case then fine.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

@Roden if you really think it’s Enchant, then why drag this out? Atp, I don’t honestly think Implosion is going to get to use his UB and we probably just wasted a flip.

Because if STD is town and scum no kills again to stop the UB getting Doctor, then we are guaranteed to have two conftown in ELo.

[Roden]

Then again, Enchant chose BP over Cop and then decided not to play...like he is just obvscum here

VOTE: Enchant

[Roden]

Oh damn, it really was Enchant. Big oof for the scum picks in the draft.

GG and thanks for modding.

[Roden]

Huh, HEM actually did try to take Neighborizer, he was just too late to swap his choice over