Mini 2274: Terminator: Salvation Game Over!

[Radical Rat]

Hey now, cryptography is explicitly against the rules, what's the big idea?

[Radical Rat]

HEAL: Andante

I know she requested not to be one, but I find that those who seek positions of power are often not the sort of people I want in positions of power.

[Radical Rat]

Are there events for every day phase?
HEAL: Roden
HEAL: Cat Scratch Fever
First one is just cuz, second one is because I feel like the question about what Leader does is a genuine town ask

Anyway, looks like this is the chance to put some demons to rest more directly.

I think it's best we take this one leader at a time for now. Gives us time for more AI content to be generated from the first election that can be used to inform the second.

[Radical Rat]

Why are we voting heals based only off a few posts? I like the reasoning behind the heals but the game just literally started.

We only have four days to make two votes. Things need to get moving quickly if we don't want it to default to plurality (and we do not want that)

[Radical Rat]

I think the leader gets to go back in time and kill Pooky before he hosts this game

[Radical Rat]

Also, I thought the post cap being 150 per phase was high enough as to be largely inconsequential, but at the rate some of you are going... Yikes.

I stand by my Andante heal for now, she's overthinking things a bit, but looks plenty Town to me. Firebringer's point that he'd be electing her as scum is valid, but if scum wants to help elect a Townie as leader, I'm sure not gonna be the one to stop them.

I think Hectic is probably Town. Which is to say that the alt that ISN'T Hectic must not be. Really, just not a fan of all the grandstanding, feels like a spicy mix of LAMIST and Too Scummy To Be Scum, so they're off my list of viable leaders.

Firebringer I think is genuinely Town here, though largely gut at this point. Wouldn't want him as leader though, because while I do enjoy a good shitpost every now and then... I'd rather someone more reliable take the reins.

Ejj I could go either way on. Leaning Town for now.

Everyone else.... No terribly strong opinions on. Mildly sus of Penguin, but that's just like. A vague feeling, less than even gut.

[Radical Rat]

I think the leader gets to go back in time and kill Pooky before he hosts this game

any thoughts about the game?

Nah, not really

[Radical Rat]

If you thought I'd have super committed and confident reads a few hours into the game, then well. This probably won't be the last time I disappoint you

[Radical Rat]

RR trying to hedge a read without appearing to do so

very creative strategy, I'll have to try it sometime

forgive me for being blunt, accusing people for doubtful reasons at best won’t accomplish much at this point
You wrote that read without thinking much, possibly a response to a scum-read on you.
Possibly as a way to maintain the leader-persona
please, quit it.
it just makes you appear unpredictable. It would be good to have some way to determine whether you seriously think of scum-reading someone or it’s just a reaction-test

dont we all hedge. i mean ur hedging on me.
I am hedging on a secret coin flip on a few players.

Hedging keeps the game turning

bleh
forced
Give me the result tho

The point was they made a scumread by dressing it up as a maybe townread - I dont think this kind of "testing the waters" is towny and frankly, looks outing to me.

Whoa, that is not what happened. I do townread Firebringer, I just don't think he'd make a good leader because of his playstyle, not because he might be scum.

[Radical Rat]

Ejj feels like the Town version of The Alt (not) Formerly Known As Hectic.

Like, they're similarly hyperposting, both coming off as somewhat arrogant, and tinged with LAMIST.... But for reasons I can't quite articulate, Ejj's posting seems genuine, while citceH's doesn't.

[Radical Rat]

Intent to hammer Ejj if there are no major objections

[Radical Rat]

I'm going to also say that the people shading shoshin are slightly more suspicious than they were before doing that.

They literally have not posted whatsoever. That's just a flake to me, and probably not AI unless they have a history of doing this as scum.

[Radical Rat]

Could I ask you to take your post one step further though? "NotHectic does not seem genuine and I cannot explain why" is not exactly a committal statement. Can you try to explain what about it comes off as not genuine?

It feels targeted and deliberate. Like he's pushing for direct goals and each post is an attempt to make a specific thing happen. Or at least each group of posts.

Ejj on the other hand feels like actual thought processes, and while a lot of that drive is there, it feels more motivated than calculated.

[Radical Rat]

RR comes off as not having takes in most of their posts, although when prompted by N-Hectic, they did give a sizable response, yeah.

I do want to say that I was actually in the process of writing 188 when "prompted" by They Who Shall Not Be Hectic. Which is why I gave the "Nah, not really" post as a direct response.

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, no one's yelled at me about it, and time is starting to become a relevant factor so.

HEAL: Ejjinami
Welcome to leadership

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, no one's yelled at me about it, and time is starting to become a relevant factor so.

HEAL: Ejjinami
Welcome to leadership

Who’s your preferred second vote rn?

Still probably Andante, nothing's really changed on my read there, and her tendency to obvtown is very good for leading.

[Radical Rat]

hmmm
why are we choosing ejji as leader?

question still stands

Personally, I townread them, and they're very active in driving the game forward.

[Radical Rat]

I think rat has gotten easy trs for not doing much, and that makes me wary.

They aren’t going very much against the grain, so I’m just kind of confused where these TRs are coming from

Like Andante was townreading them for that reads list and for “doing stuff” which is like a weird way to characterize their play

And what is "going against the grain" here?

I was the first to heal Andante, I was at least one of the first to start scumreading Not Hectic, and while I was rather late on healing ejj, It's not like I'm just sheeping everyone else blindly.

[Radical Rat]

Really not fond of the shoshin pushing now though, like. I get being wary, but it's lazy and frankly a bit mean to just automatically scumread someone for flaking on a game. They'll either get in here and post and we can judge that, or their replacement will. And to suggest that I must be defending a partner simply because I don't want to assume someone who literally just isn't here is scum.... absolutely absurd, really.

[Radical Rat]

That is in fact very high on my list of the worst ideas

[Radical Rat]

Did my predecessor not even post?

Sure didn't, so you're off to a better start already!

[Radical Rat]

Oh I forgot I also needed to HEAL: Andante when I healed Ejj

[Radical Rat]

How did CSF get that high?

Lodging a formal objection to this one, I think there's a solid chance she's scum here

[Radical Rat]

Out of the existing heal wagons, excluding myself, I'm still most comfortable with Andante by a long shot. Fidget or Loki maybe. Preferably Fidget.

[Radical Rat]

How did CSF get that high?

Lodging a formal objection to this one, I think there's a solid chance she's scum here

Btw this is scum who is panicking that a 2 town leadership is about to be established^

And this is scum panicking because they're meeting resistance electing their partner ;3c

[Radical Rat]

I'm literally not even considering myself as an option, but go off I guess?

[Radical Rat]

And wow, crazy how I could have developed opinions after several more pages of content

[Radical Rat]

What inconsistency are you even talking about?

[Radical Rat]

I don't have time to go through everything properly right now, but I will later tonight, and provide the requested details on my CSF read, promise.

In the meantime, I will say that my preferred team would be Ejj, Andante, Myself, Firebringer, Aisa, and Fidget.

Could swap one of 'em for Loki maybe. Haven't figured out a read on Enchant, Gamma, Penguin or Toogeloo yet.

[Radical Rat]

To briefly summarize on CSF, there was a Lot of mech spec fluff, which to me felt like it was intended to distract from the process of sorting out Town to elect as Leaders. Like, I get being sucked into mech rabbit holes, I do it all the time as both alignments, but in this case, all the fussing over what a leader may or may not do... It just wasn't relevant to the actual decision. And she wasn't alone in doing so, but it just... Struck me with her in a way that didn't with the others.

[Radical Rat]

Like I said, I'll run through and try to be more detailed about it later.

For now, my number one request is that if the teams get decided quickly... Not hectic needs to be on CSF's if either at all. If people disagree with me and think they and CSF are Town, we simply send that team back and no harm done. But if I'm right, and we put NotHectic on Ejj's team... Both teams have one of my major scumread, and the decision on who to send gets a whole lot more complicated...

[Radical Rat]

I'm a dirty liar and I fell asleep when I got home.

I'll catch up and case CSF properly

[Radical Rat]

I still think RR slipped their reads arent genuine in their post where i accused them of townreading me before and not having progression while simultaneously not myself realizing i was quoting a post where they scumread me but when replying they did not even realize said inconsistency as one who had a genuine read there would.

Because by your own admission there was no inconsistency? Like, I asked what you were talking about and you never answered, and now you're saying you thought I said I townread you, but that wasn't actually expressed at the time so how would I have caught that? Even if I were scum, why would I have just... Let you get away with that if I did know what you were talking about?

[Radical Rat]

So, these are the mech posts that pinged me, though in my mind there were a lot more of these, I guess I got stuff mixed around in my head.

Spoiler:

Last blurb on spec I promise

but the role pm says we have our voice and vote, but glaringly missing from it is that there's nothing about voting out players from the game, which makes me think the leaders probably have control over the lims. So yeah, I strongly suspect read accuracy will matter.

---

HEAL: Andante

This sounds like town!Andante to me.

are they always so dramatic?

Dramatic? They sound genuine and that’s why I’m so confident she’s town here.

what I meant was- they misunderstood my posts in pretty silly ways
I got the feeling that they read my posts, got slighty triggered and then overwhelmed with anger when they started writing and describing how scummy and rude I am. As if just writing that kept fueling their anger, causing them to notice new and new arguments for how I'm being bad (which actually were based on pretty simple misunderstandings- I don't think it should be considered scummy by a person who's emotionally sober)

I was asking if it's normal for town!Andante to get so lost in their feelings and lose track of reality
or like... if it's just normal for them to tunnel

sorry if I'm being rude again, I don't know how to describe it otherwhise

I don't think they lose track of reality, but yes Andante does play a very emotionally transparent game. This is completely within her townrange

Feeling town on Ejjinami, I like their analysis here and on 96

but the role pm says we have our voice and vote, but glaringly missing from it is that there's nothing about voting out players from the game, which makes me think the leaders probably have control over the lims. So yeah, I strongly suspect read accuracy will matter.

That is never going to happen and if it does i hope they get 186 as well

Never say never but yeah that would be kind of unfun

Another theory I have is they get special PR-like abilities based on what I'm reading about John Connor in the Terminator Wiki lol

However, they just seem weird and out of place, like I said earlier, like they're meant to draw attention away from relevant discussion.

Beyond that, the energy here is wonky. I know she said she was sick, and that's probably part of it, but... It feels very coasty, kinda going with the flow.

And then after being elected, the suggestion that she'd just pick her healers is demonstrative of a lack of care or investment. Like, if she's scum here, she's already won, it really doesn't matter who her team is, so picking something as superficial as that makes sense. And then she backed down when called on it, of course.

[Radical Rat]

If you don't buy it, that's fine, my point stands regardless.

If Cat and NotHectic are both scum, keeping them on one team loses nothing, but putting NotHectic on your team means both are bad.

If Cat and NotHectic are both Town, which team NotHectic is on is entirely inconsequential.

If Cat is Town and NotHectic is scum, whichever team gets NotHectic is bad, but the other is potentially good, so recruiting them on either team is the same result.

If Cat is scum and NotHectic is Town, then it actually is ideal to put NotHectic on your team, but there are enough other Town in the game that it shouldn't be too hard to pick another one.

So, ideally we just wouldn't recruit NotHectic at all. But, if it must be done, I'd prefer they be quarantined together. If that team then wins the vote because everyone else townreads them, so be it.

[Radical Rat]

I think I could see rat as maf.. especially with like how no one wanted to heal rat, so ehhh idk!!! good luck!! ejj I probably vote for your team regardless

Why wouldn't scum have supported you in healing me then, given the opportunity?

[Radical Rat]

Well, I think both teams are fucked by the inclusion of NotHectic.

Having said that, it's probably better to have as few scum as possible on the team that goes back, even if we miss the instant win. My best guess is that both halves of the game will need to be won individually, but the past will have sway over the future in some way...

Leaning towards Team Ejj, obvious reasons (includes myself, doesn't include CSF), but... Others are iffy, will get back to you on that

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Team 1

I should have done this a while ago but forgot about it.

Ultimately just comes down to hoping I'm wrong on one person instead of two. Not really confident on my Gamma/Loki reads, but I do lean town on Gamma, and they're both on both teams anyway so. Not like it super matters in the end

[Radical Rat]

Seems my half-baked and insincere reads were actually onto something then, eh?

[Radical Rat]

So, during the game split, I had a suspicion all three scum were on the past team.

The fact that you were able to eliminate Terminators both times though makes me falter on that, since starting with 50% control would have made elimination damn near impossible.

So, Aisa/Gamma, what was the final votecount on The Enby Wearing A Hectic Scooby Doo Mask?

[Radical Rat]

Bruh really, why mafia would put all teammates with self, it's critically dumb.

Because a game split felt like an inevitability, and people were allowed to be on both teams, so there's no opportunity cost for a hell of a lot of control over the past game.

[Radical Rat]

Doesh't change much, Team 2 conftown, will not think otherwise.

I will probably join you in that conclusion, following Aisa and Gamma both providing the same votecounts, barring any apparent shenanigans.

[Radical Rat]

Nah, I don't think you're obvscum. Yet. Though you definitely aren't conftown.

Running the numbers though, assuming you were... If we do a shit job, it's still possible to lose. We'd need 4 conftown for that strat

Which may indeed be possible... But I don't want to get ahead of myself

[Radical Rat]

At the end Rat switched to FB as a policy yeet- sheeping andante's confidence. (prior to that they voiced willingness to PL among Fire/Enchant, while prefering Penguin over fire. They sheeped andante's confidence and switched votes while saying that they'll sheep but expect explanations tomorrow)

It wasn't policy, nor did I express willingness to policy. I said I WOULD have been pushing policy if I were more confident on everyone being Town.

Otherwise, yeah that's pretty much what happened.

[Radical Rat]

I can confirm every factual claim that Gamma has made.

RR, if you want the exact end of day 1 votecount, it was:
NAHA: Loki, Gamma, CSF, Fidget, Aisa
CSF: NAHA

I'm somewhat surprised no one has brought up this angle yet. Or maybe this is what Gamma means, idk, but I think it's a slightly different angle:
If there were 3 scum in my PT, they literally could have controlled the day 1 elimination and gone on to eliminate or kill all 3 townies in the PT (plus one in the other PT), thus automatically getting the game to 4:3 eLo.

The fact this didn't happen is somewhat short of a perfect clear, but IMO fairly close.

Also, FWIW, I think Gamma kinda towntold in the PT anyway.

This is obviously easy for me to say, but I am pretty keen for the 3-scum-in-one-PT theory to die down pretty soon.

Yeah, and that's the situation I expected to be in this morning.
I don't think they mutual bus like that in a triple scum world though, so I'm willing to say final scum was in our group now.

Now then. Andante's ragequit probably spews that slot Town, as well as townreading her beforehand. Ejjinami townslipped, and was also an existing townread. So that leaves Vivax/Enchant, and I'm not really fond of Vivax's entrance today, so let's start there, yeah?

VOTE: Vivax

[Radical Rat]

How obvious do you think it was that Andante ragequit? I'm not asking to help sort Andante/Johnny, I'm actually trying to understand your thought process here. Like, was the most heated moment right before the end of the day? It also sounds like she got the elim she wanted?

Basically, she was pushing extremely hard and extremely emotionally that Fire was scum and anyone not voting him must be his partner, right up to literal minutes before deadline. I was already townreading Andante for her general transparency and Andante-ness, so I decided to trust her over my own very weak reads, assuming there was something there I missed, and switched my vote last second. Firebringer flipped Town and she immediately replaced out.

So... Really only one way to read that to me.

[Radical Rat]

Eh, I think Enchant is prob Town here.

No reason to chainsaw for Vivax as solo scum, when he could help the lim go through first then blame me for it after

[Radical Rat]

If I need to die to state your collective paranoia so you can move on to Vivax, so be it, but like. Given what seems to have occurred in the past PT, and in the main thread prior to the split, our hypothetical scumteam's strategy would have apparently been to just all bus each other, which.... Isn't really an ideal tactic if you ask me, and certainly hasn't worked out for "us" so far.

We do have breathing room thanks to everyone kicking ass in the past though, so do what you must. Though I'm pretty sure game ends with a Vivax lim here

[Radical Rat]

Well, I townread everyone else alive. Can't speak for everyone, but it's the only option left, and I think they started the day off scummy as well so.

[Radical Rat]

The link to the Mafia PT being in the OP has no bearing on the alignment of people who notice it, I don't understand your argument here

[Radical Rat]

Hmm, NAHA also went after the Vivax slot a lot though.

I think this is a little bit different because of shoshin being the original occupant of the slot. They literally didn't post at all, which apparently is scum indicative of them according to a couple other people, and though I still find that to be a bit flimsy justification, from the perspective of their team they'd be dead weight. Their presence in the game means it takes more votes to eliminate, but they never push or vote or anything themselves. So at that point, bussing is the best option, might as well squeeze some towncred out of the situation.

[Radical Rat]

TL;DR

If I'm Koba and I know that shoshin is scum, and that they aren't playing the game, I attempt to bus there regardless.

[Radical Rat]

TL;DR

If I'm Koba and I know that shoshin is scum, and that they aren't playing the game, I attempt to bus there regardless.

ジブリッシュ?

Who are Koba and shoshin. Cat and super mario bro?

Koba is NotAHecticAlt.
shoshin is your slot's first occupant.

[Radical Rat]

He means Aisa and Gamma

[Radical Rat]

At that point they'd already committed.

It would have looked really silly for them to go from "I am 100% confident on shoshin scum, I am the best at scumhunting and I am always right about lurkers" to "I guess you can have another chance"

When one of them flips red, that interaction would have been jumped on immediately if they'd tried it

[Radical Rat]

Ejj is Town because they took a long time to realize the PT existed. If they were scum, they would have seen it when they went to post in the scum thread.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think I'm being apathetic. I do care what happens, and I do want Vivax dead. But we're not in immediate danger, and we can afford a miss as long as it brings us closer to actually winning. If that miss is me, then that means you know I'm being honest at the very least, and sets the stage for Vivax tomorrow.

And sure, Ejj COULD have faked not seeing the PT, as anyone can fake anything. But to me, it seemed real. It didn't look intended to come across as Town, just as a genuine excuse for not having posted.

Of course, I suppose it's also possible that they'd just bookmarked the scum thread and never passed through the PT list, but... That can be worried about if Vivax doesn't end the game

[Radical Rat]

Maybe help me see why Vivax might be scum? So far, I've got:
- you think their entrance today was scummy
- you townread everyone else
- maybe something about NAHA bussing there, I'm not sure if you were talking about that just as a hypothetical
Is there anything I'm missing?

There is one other thing.
Early on, I defended shoshin from Not Hectic's seemingly random push on them for flaking. I said that flaking is NAI unless they have a history of doing that specifically as scum. I don't remember who, I think it was either you or Fidget, said that they do have a history of doing that. I have not independently confirmed this, because I don't know how to search for games a person was in but never posted, BUT... it would make sense to bus a partner who committed a meta scumtell, especially when that tell is refusal to play the game.

This is what makes it distinct from Not Hectic and I "bussing" each other.

[Radical Rat]

I think town!RR would be more likely to take a stand on, well, literally anything else?

What else do I need to take a stand on? There's one scum left, and I think I've found 'em. I've explained my townreads on everyone else, even if some are obviously on shakier ground than others. Like... there really isn't anything else for me to have an opinion on.

[Radical Rat]

Wait I think Vivax hammered me

[Radical Rat]

Alright well.

Avenge me, and failing that... I'd have to say Ejj/Mathblade. I was thinking about it, and it is very interesting that over half of the people on both teams were the same, including known scum. At the time, I chalked it up to them just being consensus townreads, but... also highly possible they agreed on ideal team members in the scum chat.

[Radical Rat]

Vivax first though.

Catch ya in post-game.
Or dead thread for Aisa probably.

[Radical Rat]

... I horribly misread the VC somehow

[Radical Rat]

Why does RR assume Aisa is gonna die?

Because neither you nor Aisa are viable eliminations, and Aisa's more talkative

[Radical Rat]

Because the question that was asked was why I expected Aisa to get nightkilled, which would be answered from scum's perspective. It wouldn't be viable for them to get an elimination on the past survivors because we've all decided third scum was in the present.

[Radical Rat]

Okay what was her reason to SR FB?

There wasn't one, at least not really. But she was very upset about it, so I assumed she had one... But it was literally five minutes before deadline hit so there wasn't time to actually discuss it so...

[Radical Rat]

Actually I have been struck with inspiration as to what to say. Who did you think was voting you when you thought Vivax hammered, RR?

So, I don't actually remember who it was, but I had thought "Wait weren't there already two votes on me? That makes this four... Fuck did I get hammered?" Then I went back to check the VC, and I guess confirmation bias induced hallucinations made me see Vivax's wagon as mine, and then I counted without actually reading names, and then I counted again to make sure we did have seven alive like I thought, and then I got told I wasn't hammered, went back and... Felt very silly.

Yes, I'm aware this is ridiculous but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Radical Rat]

Hmmm. Here is a RR towngame:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=87429
It's from a year ago, so treat with a grain salt, but I'd say the comparison to this game is not reassuring. They seem a lot more opinionated that game. Although, note to self, the fact things are low-stakes for town could obviously be contributing to RR saying they don't really have anything more to take a stand on right now.

I know I am entering a tunnel, but what if this is the

right

tunnel?

Does anyone else want RR
Does anyone not want RR
Help not sure what to say

I still don't know what there even is to "take a stance" on. We have one scum left to find. I think it's Vivax. What do you want me to be opinionated about beyond that?

[Radical Rat]

Though honestly... Mathblade is concerning me here, so I may be wavering on Vivax a bit.

We do have the ability to kill both of them though.

[Radical Rat]

You think all three scum joined one PT?

I think one of the following has to be true
>> All scum in one PT
Or
>> Scum’s votes are weird at end of day one

Both of which seem logically improbable but one has to be true

So I am soliciting feedback after looking at some VCs

Thing here is, NotHectic was voting CSF and vice versa. Both of their second votes were on Ejjinami (you). Ejjinami did not vote for BOTH of them, which I think would actually be pretty damning at this point... But CSF got elected fine without him, and he WAS voting for NotHectic... And this does make sense within your own logic.

I recognize that if you are truly Town, this is impossible to you, but riddle me this one... If indeed all three scum were in the Past... They would have had plurality from the start. Why would they bus each other and ruin that?

[Radical Rat]

I can’t count

More like. EnglishBlade

[Radical Rat]

More like. HistoryBlade

[Radical Rat]

Hmmm. Here is a RR towngame:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=87429
It's from a year ago, so treat with a grain salt, but I'd say the comparison to this game is not reassuring. They seem a lot more opinionated that game. Although, note to self, the fact things are low-stakes for town could obviously be contributing to RR saying they don't really have anything more to take a stand on right now.

I know I am entering a tunnel, but what if this is the

right

tunnel?

Does anyone else want RR
Does anyone not want RR
Help not sure what to say

I still don't know what there even is to "take a stance" on. We have one scum left to find. I think it's Vivax. What do you want me to be opinionated about beyond that?

To rephrase slightly, I felt you were a bit passive. I'm not sure what could change my mind rn, sorry.

Fair enough, though I will say I was a PR there, so naturally gonna value my life as an individual more than I would in a mountainous with room for error.

[Radical Rat]

Invictus was over by the time we eliminated Firebringer and she replaced out.

Also, her replacement was announced in its own post less than an hour after the flip, which means her request was in a very brief period of time after the flip, and given how strongly she was pushing... It was either a ragequit or one hell of a coincidence

[Radical Rat]

Invictus was over by the time we eliminated Firebringer and Andante replaced out.

Also, her replacement was announced in its own post less than an hour after the flip, which means her request was in a very brief period of time after the flip, and given how strongly she was pushing... It was either a ragequit or one hell of a coincidence

Edit for clarity

[Radical Rat]

I think it's about time we get moving here.

If you want to kill me, kill me. If you don't, let's settle on either Vivax or MathBlade.

[Radical Rat]

Well damn. Took me a while on the third, and I did change my mind posthumously (partly due to Koba lying, but still) but I'm gonna count this as 3/3 scumreads.

I do need to figure out this whole "charisma" thing someday though...