LOST (Game Over)

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello.

[MalcolmTucker]

Never actually got round to watching Lost when it came out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Never actually got round to watching Lost when it came out.

Me neither - we should do a watch party where we livetweet our reactions in this thread

Spoiler:

Only half joking

From a brief catchup it seems nobody here watched it. Heard it got rubbish towards the end anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

i doubt i will ever townread you on page 6 of any game ever

Agreed, I get there's often the strong caveat that stated TR's at this point are more on vibes than anything else but unless it's a playstyle thing I don't tend to like someone claiming they're certain on a TR (or a SR) hours into the game. Can sometimes smack of desperation a bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, what's up?
How are you? Are you still getting eliminated every day 1?
How has all of the being eliminated effecting your playstyle this game or how do you predict it will if at all?

I've actually never been eliminated D1! As a general rule when I'm town I manage to get through the first day, but after that I'm sometimes eliminated. Either way I tend not to let it impact my playstyle all that much - I wouldn't even say I have that much of a specific playstyle for the most part, I simply analyse and try to find connections between different players but tend to be pretty uncertain in how I approach the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Dunn is town so far. I agree with them that the early wagon on Cephir isn't particularly useful, and I'm not sure I like how quickly a lot of votes mounted up on said wagon, jokey or not.

I reckon Luke and Rad is probably TvT. I don't agree with Rad on the read but they are making a genuine effort to solve early on even if their conclusions aren't necessarily correct. Attempts to drive the game forward earn townpoints from me and Luke doesn't strike me as the type of player to go after if you're scum wanting to appear busy.

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: csf for not providing a reason in their RVS vote

I have 1 serious town read and 1 serious scum read and I'm going to keep quiet on them for a little while.

Hey @Frogster take a quick glance at Luke's ISO and tell me if you see the same lack of content. I ask you specifically because of your 270 which makes me believe you've got an eye for that sort of thing.

I don't like Luke's iso, there is a low signal to noise ratio and their posts look like filler to keep up with the higher activity townie slots.

There are a couple other reasons I don't trust Luke. I think 319 and 322 are potential shade, and I think Luke is playing this game differently than they did D1 in the large theme game I played with them before, and their slot flipped town in that game.

One reason I may hold off on scum reading Luke is that there was a convincing push against them early D1 in my last Large Theme game, lead by Town, so I'm weary that Luke may have a tendency to be lim bait in Large games.

I actually believe now that Luke v Rad is TvT, and I think Pooky being paranoid about me is more likely to come from Town

Feels like a very hesitant/cautious posts from Frogster. On Luke, they throw out some shade with the aim of putting some suspicion onto the slot, but back off from actually pushing the slot themselves at all. It's like they didn't mind the idea of a wagon there but were reluctant to follow through.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

You should vote frog

P-edit yessss

I generally vote incredibly sparsely early on in games as a thing. Want to see how Frogster responds first.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm very confident that this is scum!Malcolm.

VOTE: Malcolm

What's making you think that? And how are you 'very confident' someone is scum a day into the game?

[MalcolmTucker]

@klick, can you talk to me about the top and bottom two on that list? I don't feel like I've gotten enough from ceph or pp to read them, my read keeps flipping in frogsterking every post they make, and similar Ish with CSF. The rest are town thoiugh, hard agree.

Ceph's reaction to pressure was towny - in particular, I liked where he was like 'don't take my Town PM away', his feelings around that feel genuine and I don't think it's the route he'd take as scum.

Penguin's annoyance with OTH looks like genuinely annoyed town.

Frogster's probably my strongest townread? He's solving. He's got nuanced takes and a point of view that's shifting as he gets new info. I think his intention is to find out who the scum are and I don't feel like he's got much else on the mind.

CSF is kind of a gut read, I like how she's engaging with the thread. Might have better words for it later.

Why do you townread Pooky?

Not sure I agree with this. A lot of his posts have mostly felt like early gut-reads scum could easily feign. His push on Off The Hook was pretty meh and his push on Lukewarm barely lasted a post before he basically said he feels Lukewarm is town anyway. Maybe I'm reading the slot wrong but not getting town vibes from Frogster at all right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm very confident that this is scum!Malcolm.

VOTE: Malcolm

What's making you think that? And how are you 'very confident' someone is scum a day into the game?

I think your read on me looks manufactured and I think calling luke v rad and dunnstral town are pretty safe takes.

You seem different from previous games I've played with you where you were town.

I guess I should be weary that you have a tendency to be limbait and we could be TvT.

My read is perfectly natural, I think there's a decent chance you could be scum and I outlined why.

There's nothing wrong with a "safe" take if it's what I believe - as town I've looked at the exchanges between both and I don't think either of them look like scum right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, what's up?
How are you? Are you still getting eliminated every day 1?
How has all of the being eliminated effecting your playstyle this game or how do you predict it will if at all?

I've actually never been eliminated D1! As a general rule when I'm town I manage to get through the first day, but after that I'm sometimes eliminated. Either way I tend not to let it impact my playstyle all that much - I wouldn't even say I have that much of a specific playstyle for the most part, I simply analyse and try to find connections between different players but tend to be pretty uncertain in how I approach the game.

I kinda like this post as coming from a town mindset for Malcolm.

Because several of us here know he was eliminated day 1 as scum in the Web of Lies games (and is what Bell is refering to here I believe).

But he didn't even think of that game. His thoughts went to "I never get

mis

eliminated day 1." And [I'm town this game, so I am immediately comparing this game to my other town games] feels like a genuine thought process. While I would kinda expect scum!Malcolm to be more aware of the scum game where he crashed and burned

To be fair I forget about that game quite often because I was a replacement and rather infamously managed to immediately out myself as scum within about 10 mins.

[MalcolmTucker]

474 is making me lean towards Malcolm and I being TvT. I'll just swallow my pride now and get it over with.

UNVOTE: Malcolm

I see a similar situation coming with Off the Hook, who CSF is townsending, so I'm sticking my vote here:

VOTE: Bellaphant

Johnny is next in line if they fail to elaborate their naked vote on me.

I do like that you're willing to explore new ideas but do find your read on me changing to be a big leap from where you were "confident" I was scum after just a handful of posts.

[MalcolmTucker]

STD said signatures don't count.

What a fake post restriction if I've ever saw one.

Which part?

If signatures don't count, why not use them every post? In the very few posts you've made I don't feel like you've been either careful with your words or consistent in your application. It looks like to me you're making it up on the fly (or that you and your partner didn't agree how to fake the restriction).

I'm skeptical for other reasons that I'll discuss with the other players, but we can start there.

Look, I am aware that if the restriction is real I risk wasting your word counts or whatever, and you're limited in your ability to explain... but how everyone else reacted is exactly how you would want if you were faking a restriction. Sorry, thems the breaks.

If they were going to fake a restriction though, wouldn't you expect them to be doubly sure how they were going to go about it before committing? It strikes me as an especially convoluted and weird thing for a hydra to make up in particular on D1, when coordinating a hydra can be a difficult job anyway, especially if said hydra is scum. And given the size of the game, being able to successfully coast through D1 could be of limited advantage anyway considering there'll likely be lots of phases.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcom why digging in so hard for Luke?

I wouldn't say I've dug in particularly hard so far as such - just that I'm getting a decent town vibe from them. I wasn't keen on Frogster's push where they basically backed off at the same time but that was more me being suspicious of Frogster than anything else. But, of course, if Frogster is scum feels unlikely they'd want to throw any shade onto Luke at all this early in the game if Luke was a teammate. What's your feeling on Lukewarm yourself?

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like there could be one scum in Galron/Frog from their argument.

While I don't agree with T-Bone's view re the faked restriction, I think he's town for suggesting it. Seems like a theory unlikely to come from scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

We can force them to post the rest of their 100 words under threat of being wagoned and then watch whether their slot is required to post again on D1?

This actually seems like a good idea unless I'm missing something.

I suppose the only concern is they could still be a scum slot, of course, since the word count limit isn't necessarily alignment indicative, and it allows them to coast through the rest of the day without having to produce any content. But I think the net positives from verifying they're not lying (even though I don't think they are) might outweigh the negatives of them being silent for the rest of D1, especially since they can't exactly say much with 100 words anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can you explain what my theory is in your own words, and why you don't think scum can?

To TBone - in the simplest terms, unless I'm misunderstanding you, your theory is that they have faked a posting restriction, no?

I don't think that it inherently can't come from scum - it just strikes me as a theory that's more likely to come from town trying to think things through and coming up with unique ideas and suggestions as to how other players are approaching the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Dancing Puppets could potentially be scum on the basis of a lot of their recent posts. Feel like there's a lot of stuff about them not necessarily having particularly distinct reads/being willing to sheep despite the fact that they have been quite active anyway. For how much they've posted it feels like there's a real lack of content there.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Dancing Puppets could potentially be scum on the basis of a lot of their recent posts. Feel like there's a lot of stuff about them not necessarily having particularly distinct reads/being willing to sheep despite the fact that they have been quite active anyway. For how much they've posted it feels like there's a real lack of content there.

Do you think scum just admits they're going to sheep at the beginning of the game?

Granted, I think both heads of the hydra are normally very headstrong about their reads. It's a bit weird to see them both want to take a back seat.

If you're typically an experienced, headstrong player I think it's pretty viable to sheep as scum D1 when you don't have as much of a grip on what's going on to try and coast through, especially in a game of this size where you're maybe less likely to come under pressure.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Dancing Puppets could potentially be scum on the basis of a lot of their recent posts. Feel like there's a lot of stuff about them not necessarily having particularly distinct reads/being willing to sheep despite the fact that they have been quite active anyway. For how much they've posted it feels like there's a real lack of content there.

Do you think scum just admits they're going to sheep at the beginning of the game?

Granted, I think both heads of the hydra are normally very headstrong about their reads.

It's a bit weird to see them both want to take a back seat.

Weird post - the question at Malcolm is challenging his read. But then you take the wind out of your sails with the last, bolded bit.

I didn't clock this at the time but good spot.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Dancing Puppets could potentially be scum on the basis of a lot of their recent posts. Feel like there's a lot of stuff about them not necessarily having particularly distinct reads/being willing to sheep despite the fact that they have been quite active anyway. For how much they've posted it feels like there's a real lack of content there.

Do you think scum just admits they're going to sheep at the beginning of the game?

Granted, I think both heads of the hydra are normally very headstrong about their reads.

It's a bit weird to see them both want to take a back seat.

Weird post - the question at Malcolm is challenging his read. But then you take the wind out of your sails with the last, bolded bit.

I didn't clock this at the time but good spot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oops, double post.

[MalcolmTucker]

Frogs, why is BBT likelier scum than Titus?

Luke, why did you consider Galron?

Among BBT or Dancing Puppets I'm not sure which is more likely to be a scum slot. I think the BBT slot is objectively scummy by looking at the iso, and the Dancing Puppets slot is just pinging me hard based on my own subjective experiences. Unless BBT starts posting more, there's a higher chance I'll turn around on my Dancing Puppets read, as I've done with Malcolm and Galron already. I think there's a slightly lower chance I turn around on the Dancing Puppets slot because my PoE is getting tighter.

Reading back and Frogster is starting to seem more townie to me. Earlier in the game I felt like they were jumping around everywhere with no consistency but could be they were maybe just finding their way into the game? Either way posts like this are quite good and indicate they're genuinely thinking about the game, I think. Won't abandon all suspicion of the slot since this could be clever scumplay but getting a much better vibe from Frog's posts than earlier in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Heavy borrow from Rad

town:

CSF
OTH
Dunn
T-Bone
Rad

null:

Luke
Pooky
Frogster
Roden
Bella
Penguin
BBT
Corwin
Taly
DP
Johnny
Cephrir
Enchant
CaG
Mala
Malcolm
Klick
Dwlee

scum:

The toad
Bell

That looks alright I guess for top of my head

I generally don't mind someone being honest and having quite a few null-reads but I'm not sure why you'd post a reads list when you have this many other than to seem helpful to town because it's been asked. I don't necessarily disagree with the TR's but they feel very generic? As if Galron has just scouted out who has towncred and plopped for them to keep the heat off.

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you faking your chat restriction, because if you aren't this is near unacceptable.

That idea to get them to post and see if they get prodded is sounding alright just now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think that Cephrir is very good at making people feel bad about voting for him. As I mentioned before, I associate this with his scum game more than I do his town game. I feel like that is what is happening here.

Catching up but despite feeling Cephir was townie early on I'm starting to largely agree with this. Cephir's responses to Dunn aren't the best and it feels a bit like Cephir is deflecting there. Going from town to suspicious a bit, albeit still working my way through the past 10 pages or so.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like Dancing Puppets could potentially be scum on the basis of a lot of their recent posts. Feel like there's a lot of stuff about them not necessarily having particularly distinct reads/being willing to sheep despite the fact that they have been quite active anyway. For how much they've posted it feels like there's a real lack of content there.

Do you think scum just admits they're going to sheep at the beginning of the game?

Granted, I think both heads of the hydra are normally very headstrong about their reads. It's a bit weird to see them both want to take a back seat.

this is such a weird post, i cant tell what roden actually believes.
its like hes trying to discrrdit malcolms thoughts, but then he actually says something thats sorta in agreeance with them?

I think this is a fair point from OTH and I'm not particularly trustful of Roden either. Catch is, of course, they won't likely be scum alongside Cephir given the bickering there. But I feel like one of Cephir/Roden could come back scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

How come all of the leading wagons in this game are really bad?

scum are either strong players or lurking imo

If ceph flips scum, this becomes a funny post lol

I feel like it's also the type of post that can quite feasibly come from good/experienced scum? A lot of the time you assume scum maybe don't want to draw any attention to what the makeup of their team could be, but in a big game like this making associatives can be hard and I can see scum being more willingly to openly comment on what the scumteam may be like, even if only to misdirect.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not necessarily keen on reads list, especially in a bigger game where it's genuinely hard to sort a lot of players, but this is roughly where I'd say I'm at in terms of how I'm feeling. Some players here I'd genuinely forgotten were in the game though given the size.

Town

Rad
Dunnstral
Cat Scratch Fever
Lukewarm
Taly
Frogsterking
Dwlee99
Off the Hook
T-Bone
Klick

Null/unsure

Malakittens
PookyTheMagicalBear
BlueBloodedToffee
Corwinoid
Enchant
Bellaphant
Bell
JohnnyFarrar
Cytosine and Guanine
PenguinPower

Possible scum

Galron
Cephrir
Dancing Puppets
Roden
The toad

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Pooky

This is my hot take before I slither back into the abyss

I agree with Pooky's reasons early for scumreading frogster's play from a meta standpoint but then he goes limp on the read and isn't voting there

I personally didn't get the vibe this post was particularly likely to come from scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I agree with CSF and Frogster that Johnny's read on Frog seems quite weak. If nobody else had been particularly SR'ing the slot then I'd put it down to town just having a gut-read early on. But given Frog got quite a lot of attention early on I think it's possible Johnny saw some momentum on a player that looks townie now and felt like it would be an ideal place to put their vote as scum.

From one POV you'd expect them to have backed off by now considering there's essentially an admission their read isn't that strong, but I think it's also possible Johnny could be fairly self-aware scum here if they haven't pushed much elsewhere and want to look as if they're at least trying to maintain some sort of pressure on a slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler: Johnny's Poe

BlueBloodedToffee
Dancing Puppets (Nancy Drew 39 and Titus)
Malakittens
MalcolmTucker
Off the Hook (Gamma Emerald and Marcistar)
Galron
Roden
The toad
Enchant
Dwlee99
Bellaphant
Klick
PenguinPower
Bell
Cephrir
Frogsterking

Spoiler: Taly's Poe

Klick
MalcolmTucker
Cephrir
Malakittens
PenguinPower
Frogsterking
Cat Scratch Fever
Enchant
BlueBlooded Toffee
The Toad
OffTheHook
T-Bone

@Taly when comparing our lists, these are the people you've removed but I haven't:
Bell (we discussed, feel free to skip explanation)
Bellaphant
Roden
Galron
Mala
Nancy and Titus

Do you care to help me remove them from mine?

I'm missing:
T-Bone, and I don't think T-Bone scum goes after the post restricted Ircher slot. Seems actively un-fun, unless they're scum together but we're gonna save that paranoia for later

oof, it was lost on me that

Cytosine/Guanine

were post-restricted? where is the source?

bella:

I liked the questions they've asked so far and the timing at which they were done, need me to pick them out?

roden:

saw them posit a town/town between two players in a post? (i should review this at some point) don't think that's typical for scum behavior when there's no notable 1v1s occurring? it's enough to make my eyes go somewhere else.

mala:

ive seen mislimmed early-game for a lack of active, focused, nuanced content - i dont think they're a player that's well-read given the current site culture. im weary, i want to give this slot some time. itll be an easier sort later.

nancy/titus/galron:

best that you ISO me for reads on these two slots.

I agree with CSF and Frogster that Johnny's read on Frog seems quite weak. If nobody else had been particularly SR'ing the slot then I'd put it down to town just having a gut-read early on. But given Frog got quite a lot of attention early on I think it's possible Johnny saw some momentum on a player that looks townie now and felt like it would be an ideal place to put their vote as scum.

From one POV you'd expect them to have backed off by now considering there's essentially an admission their read isn't that strong, but I think it's also possible Johnny could be fairly self-aware scum here if they haven't pushed much elsewhere and want to look as if they're at least trying to maintain some sort of pressure on a slot.

nah im not feeling the

johnny

scumreads, largely because of how constructively they're discussing reads with me and mindmelding on a few takes so far. since the game is still relatively fresh it seems to be pure to me.

you think im being pocketed?

May not necessarily be a deliberate pocketing but it's not impossible - scum can fake being constructive when it's useful, or if they think town are perhaps going down the wrong path. My no1 issue with Johnny after a look through their ISO is their primary SR is someone they don't even seem to particularly strongly SR. Of course, you could argue scum would be more aware of this and would have backup reads ready if their main read fades away but in a game of this size it's probably more viable for scum, if they seem helpful, to slip through the cracks early on because there's so many players and it's easy to miss when one individual scum doesn't necessarily have any reads they've managed to make look genuine.

[MalcolmTucker]

Pooky does that as scum too, tho usually later in the game. Sometimes as cover while calling other ppl lazy.
I’m correcting the record.

How many games as scum vs. town though? I’ve hydra’d with him a lot and he usually doesn’t effort this much as scum. especially since he’s not trying to control the game or push an agenda.

We’re on the same page(mostly played with Pooky scum)

But he didn’t do anything in Pokemon.

Pooky rarely efforts like this as scum.

He isn’t trying to control the game or push any kind of agenda, so what’s his motive here if scum?

To play devil's advocate for a sec, would good scum not potentially be capable of manipulating past meta to appear helpful and townie? I'm largely NAI on the lists thing. It's obviously very helpful for town but in a game of this size could also serve as a useful way for scum to coordinate who is pushing where/which townies have lots of null reads and could be seen as indecisive/who is on the right track and who is completely wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Pooky does that as scum too, tho usually later in the game. Sometimes as cover while calling other ppl lazy.
I’m correcting the record.

How many games as scum vs. town though? I’ve hydra’d with him a lot and he usually doesn’t effort this much as scum. especially since he’s not trying to control the game or push an agenda.

We’re on the same page(mostly played with Pooky scum)

But he didn’t do anything in Pokemon.

Pooky rarely efforts like this as scum.

He isn’t trying to control the game or push any kind of agenda, so what’s his motive here if scum?

To play devil's advocate for a sec, would good scum not potentially be capable of manipulating past meta to appear helpful and townie? I'm largely NAI on the lists thing. It's obviously very helpful for town but in a game of this size could also serve as a useful way for scum to coordinate who is pushing where/which townies have lots of null reads and could be seen as indecisive/who is on the right track and who is completely wrong.

Sure they could but why do that in the main thread then?

To appear townie. As outlined above it's clearly being read as pro-town. Just pointing out it'd have an advantage for scum too.

[MalcolmTucker]

And again you should know I'm not the kind of player who can only lurk as scum and can't look town. What's up with that?

What do you mean? Have we played together before?

I don't really get what you mean by "my treatment of you" either, I just think your posts have been scummy. I don't really have any questions I want to ask you, and I'm not particularly interested in casing you, I preferred Frog and now Ceph over you and I can just get to you on a day I consider you a higher priority. It's the same reason I'm not going after C&G atm even though I scum read them and have a case set aside in my drafts. I don't want to juggle multiple cases on Day 1 when it's already overwhelming enough to keep up with everything else in the game.

I am interested in how you react to my scum read though, that's basically my way of sorting you in the meantime. Because as it is now, you didn't really have an opinion on me at all until you were asked to. I think you had me at Null for Pooky's read list request, which implies that my read on you didn't factor much into your own reads for the longest time.

Not too keen on this post. I've been suspicious of Toad at times but I think they asked you some fairly reasonable questions and this feels like an evasive response - why would you not be interested in potentially casing or questioning someone who you think is mafia? If you think Toad is scum, then you've got a perfect chance here to explore that idea further, especially when it appears to be a thought you've had pretty consistently.

[MalcolmTucker]

(I tried to call you!)

Do you always move your vote around this much?

Not always, only when I'm not really sure what I want.

I'd like to know how you're reading BBT's current page content btw.

yeah, that wasn't toned, it just feels very noticeable from you and I don't really remember you doing it a bunch on other games.

With bbt I'm just a bit ....bemused? Their reaction to me was massively out of proportion (horrible post, what the fuck), but their climb down was super quick too? I don't know whether it's more town or scum - would scum have contit to argue, or just realised that I was presenting the truth? I am worried they haven't responded to the few things I said about how it reminded me of their scum game with me.

It's a criticism I've received before as town. I can't remember what games, but it was somewhat recent.

I'm going to do it again now

VOTE: BBT

I think his interaction with you is pretty bad. I read it as him trying to manage his own perception rather than genuinely questioning your read on him.

What do you think is making BBT look particularly scummy at the moment? There's a lot of attention sporadically on the slot but I'm not quite seeing it.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Roden

Feeling alright about Roden as possible scum at the moment.

Looking back and their reads list feels quite weak - the town section is quite generic with the exception of maybe Gaston. They have three SRs, one of whom is Toad, who their case against seems pretty weak, with C&G being another, again a SR that doesn't say much given their posting restriction.

While I'm reluctant to go too heavily on associatives early on I think Roden/Galron is a possible team - Roden's defence of Galron when they came under pressure didn't do much for me and felt like the type of early defence a scum teammate could easily make for their buddy.

[MalcolmTucker]

I should add - my increasing SR on Roden moves Cephir a bit closer to the townpile again for me, I was very split on them yesterday after TR'ing Cephir early on but not necessarily being keen on their responses to criticism.

[MalcolmTucker]

Penguin feels like Johnny insofar as there's a high post count there but not necessarily a lot of content of note. Worth noting though that Penguin appears to be V/LA for the next 6 days so we're likely not going to get much from pushes on the slot other than gauging opinion on what we've seen so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Penguin feels like Johnny insofar as there's a high post count there but not necessarily a lot of content of note. Worth noting though that Penguin appears to be V/LA for the next 6 days so we're likely not going to get much from pushes on the slot other than gauging opinion on what we've seen so far.

I'm kinda feeling this but also feel like I've read the Johnny portion from someone else..hmmm

A few of us have observed Johnny has lots of posts but not that much content.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Roden

Feeling alright about Roden as possible scum at the moment.

Looking back and their reads list feels quite weak - the town section is quite generic with the exception of maybe Gaston. They have three SRs, one of whom is Toad, who their case against seems pretty weak, with C&G being another, again a SR that doesn't say much given their posting restriction.

While I'm reluctant to go too heavily on associatives early on I think Roden/Galron is a possible team - Roden's defence of Galron when they came under pressure didn't do much for me and felt like the type of early defence a scum teammate could easily make for their buddy.

I’m mulling back and forth whether his noncommittal read on me is possible a way to position to potentially push us later or why scum!Roden wouldn’t just straight up try to pocket me. Like I would expect Roden to tr me here, irrespective his alignment because there hasn’t been a single game that he hasn’t.

That'd potentially make sense. It taps into another idea that's making me factor that's making me doubt Roden here - on the whole I feel like they have a lot of null/non-committal reads, yet their (in my opinion) fairly weak SR on Toad seems a lot more committed by comparison.

[MalcolmTucker]

excuse me while i get out my chainsaw

And again you should know I'm not the kind of player who can only lurk as scum and can't look town. What's up with that?

What do you mean? Have we played together before?

I don't really get what you mean by "my treatment of you" either, I just think your posts have been scummy. I don't really have any questions I want to ask you, and I'm not particularly interested in casing you, I preferred Frog and now Ceph over you and I can just get to you on a day I consider you a higher priority. It's the same reason I'm not going after C&G atm even though I scum read them and have a case set aside in my drafts. I don't want to juggle multiple cases on Day 1 when it's already overwhelming enough to keep up with everything else in the game.

I am interested in how you react to my scum read though, that's basically my way of sorting you in the meantime. Because as it is now, you didn't really have an opinion on me at all until you were asked to. I think you had me at Null for Pooky's read list request, which implies that my read on you didn't factor much into your own reads for the longest time.

Not too keen on this post. I've been suspicious of Toad at times but I think they asked you some fairly reasonable questions and this feels like an evasive response - why would you not be interested in potentially casing or questioning someone who you think is mafia? If you think Toad is scum, then you've got a perfect chance here to explore that idea further, especially when it appears to be a thought you've had pretty consistently.

Is there some question other than the quoted one that's being evaded here?

It looks answered enough to me. This post feels to me like the conclusion ("I'm going to attack Roden now") came before the substance... Roden can be interested in whatever he damn well feels like

VOTE: Roden

Feeling alright about Roden as possible scum at the moment.

Looking back and their reads list feels quite weak - the town section is quite generic with the exception of maybe Gaston. They have three SRs, one of whom is Toad, who their case against seems pretty weak, with C&G being another, again a SR that doesn't say much given their posting restriction.

While I'm reluctant to go too heavily on associatives early on I think Roden/Galron is a possible team - Roden's defence of Galron when they came under pressure didn't do much for me and felt like the type of early defence a scum teammate could easily make for their buddy.

the first sentence of this is unnecessary/stilted

looking back at his readlist to find something to criticize -- which is *obviously* what happened here -- is weak ass shit. if it wasn't coming from putting the cart before the horse, you should've had a bigger problem with the list that had only galron in the scum region (i don't remember who posted this)
the criticism of a c&g scumread to me seems to come from someone who is not critically thinking about roden's posts -- roden JUST said they have a C&G case in their drafts, so why not ask to see it before going on the attack over that read being poor?

this isn't really relevant to my point but unflipped associatives are a waste of time and mainly have the effect of looking busy

VOTE: Malcolm

Toad asks why Roden is scumreading them - my point was that I found the SR to be weak. Roden doesn't have that many SRs and yet when given the opportunity to do so they don't seem particularly interested in pushing Toad further or questioning the slot, which town would surely want to do if they are admitting their read is based on little more than a gut-feeling.

My suspicion on Roden wasn't necessarily new either - I'd included them in my list of possible scum beforehand and wasn't feeling great about the slot. This post solidified that read and moved me from unsure but suspicious to believing there's a decent chance the slot could be scum.

On the person who only had one scum in their list - it's a 26-player game and I can't recall spotting that. Happy to critique it though. However, my contention with Roden wasn't that they lacked enough SRs - it's that the one they have been most committed to appears to be quite weak and only still exists for the sake of it. I'm happy to read their case of C&G but will be naturally sceptical of a full casing for a player with a restriction that lets them type less words than many of us will have in an individual post.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh I think Cephrir is towny for that though to be clear, hypocrisy is probably a towntell for someone experienced like that

Given Cephir/Roden had a bit of a spat yesterday as well if I remember correctly, I'm not sure scum Cephir would be hitting out at other players suspecting Roden. If they were scum and Roden was town they'd surely want to ride that out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wagon hop wagon hop

VOTE: Malcolm

Pedit no frog do Mal

This feels like a bit of a random vote given the point of the game we're at, what's your reasoning?

[MalcolmTucker]

Are you trying to pocket Titus?

Titus is playing this game?

Believe they're one half of Dancing Puppets no?

[MalcolmTucker]

@Taly

nah im not feeling the johnny scumreads, largely because of how constructively they're discussing reads with me and mindmelding on a few takes so far. since the game is still relatively fresh it seems to be pure to me.

About your Johnny read, I found this and the tail end of 2003

I don't know if pooky town is a hot take. Even with some people here clearly wary of their scumgame, they're still in the top 5 townreads

I saw the PoE stuff, and I was kind of interested to see where he landed with that. But I think you may be overremembering how much discussion you had with them? I didn't find that much beyond asking you to explain some TRs and crossing names off the list.

Looking at their recent posts, I like 2307 though I don't agree with it. Penguin is kind of an easy mislim when town, so I could see scum coming in to push them.

---

About Galron, it seems to be mostly a metaread and a TvT interaction with Rad. If you could quote some posts where they've done something that is outside their scumrange, that'd be helpful. My general feeling about their posting is in 1106 - another example is the "Challenge me" post that was just ??? random and other tonal stuff like that, and their thought process feels opaque to me.

Posting any sort of content in general is outside their scumrange

Calculasia and a recent scum game with Titus demonstrates this.

I was just thinking panicking scum by the replace out but on looking at their ISO it has content so the replace out is NAI prolly.

It's possible I guess but I'm mostly either TR'ing the top posters at the moment or don't have a fully-formed read on them at the moment. The game is moving at a decent pace but more feels like everyone is being incredibly active instead of a select couple of players.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am interested in how you react to my scum read though, that's basically my way of sorting you in the meantime. Because as it is now, you didn't really have an opinion on me at all until you were asked to. I think you had me at Null for Pooky's read list request, which implies that my read on you didn't factor much into your own reads for the longest time.

I like a scum hunter who looks for ill intent, and I jive with this thought toward Toad. Toad is very nice and congenial, but this paints them in an opportunistic light that I wouldn't have picked up on

Wagon hop wagon hop

VOTE: Malcolm

Pedit no frog do Mal

This feels like a bit of a random vote given the point of the game we're at, what's your reasoning?

I liked Ceph's post and was already souring to you after Isoing you in 2050

Are you trying to pocket Titus?

Titus is playing this game?

Believe they're one half of Dancing Puppets no?

I was being snide

We're on completely different wavelengths then because I thought Roden's post you've highlighted was really evasive.

I don't find it problematic that Toad didn't have all that much of an opinion on Roden - it's a 26-player game and it's easy to not particularly notice certain players until you're specifically asked to take a look at them.

[MalcolmTucker]

Out of interest Johnny - where are you re Frog? You've had them in your POE all game and they were your earliest SR from what I can see but I don't feel like you've pressured that slot much. Although I could understand if the SR there has softened because that's obviously what happened for me re Frog.

[MalcolmTucker]

They're on my list for an ISOing at some point today. Tbh they dropped off my radar after the medication conversation

But my contention here is, do you actually SR the slot or not? You clearly had plenty of opinions on them early in the game and as time moved on those opinions shifted - the natural development here would probably be to a TR but you're reluctant to actually go there. It makes me wonder if you're scum not wanting to appear too eager to abandon what's been your most consistent SR so far. Especially when you've voted for me on the basis of someone's else casing. I'm not sure you particularly have too many opinions of your own and saying "I'm going to ISO someone" begins to feel like a convenient way for you to hop on a wagon when someone else actually either puts in the work or throws some shade in said person's direction.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Frogster

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

You should vote frog

P-edit yessss

Cytosine and Guanine (Ircher and RH9)
T-Bone

Can you go into these reads some more, and talk about why you're voting Frogster?

Post restriction has me curious. Not necessarily a townread but I would like to, y'know,

play

with Irch and RH9

I like T-Bone, and I don't think scum T-Bone picks a fight with the post restricted hydra here

Frogger seems to be... fake? Like sometimes they'll post something and I'll think to myself "there's no way they actually believe this"

Yes? Rather evidently so.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd actually contend that this pushing on me is disingenuous and based on day old knowledge.

I've made a POE that I'm slowly working through and have even ISOd YOU and you don't seem to have noticed or care.

Why are you so against Pooky being townread? Why did you show up when Ceph voted you but not when I was talking about you yesterday?

My contention here though is that your vote is seemingly not largely based on your ISO of me but on Ceph's read.

The reason I didn't respond to your previous post about me was because I didn't see it, because it was nearly 3am where I am and I would have been in bed by then after I stopped posting shortly beforehand. This is pretty clearly evidenced by the fact I didn't post in the game for 10hrs or so. I'm pretty clearly engaging with you now and am happy to answer any queries so this is a weird line of attack, I'm not dodging questioning.

My point re Frog isn't about day-old knowledge - it's that you kept your vote on the slot at a point where you admitted you weren't particularly confident in it anymore and yet when asked how you're feeling about Frog now, you don't appear to be particularly certain. "I'll ISO this slot" feels like a weak response to me because it gives you an easy out, Frog has been posting, you have clearly had opinions on them, what has changed about your read and why has it specifically changed?

Re Pooky - I don't have anything against the slot being TR'd, I just made it fairly clear at the time I don't think the spreadsheet is inherently townie and is something that be done by scum for the joint benefit of being TR'd for doing it and giving scum more info in the process considering it seems unlikely anyone else would have done it. This, again, is an odd and somewhat desperate line of attack though - I don't particularly regard Pooky as a prime scum suspect at the moment and have also made that clear. If it's a reason for voting me then quite frankly your vote is weak.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm gets "my username is just my first and last name" points (pls don't dox us)

Mal was uneasy about Pooky townreads really early

428 looks poignant.

@Bell

what makes you think Mal dies d1 a lot?

I like the pushback on t-Bones post restriction push

I don't like Mal +1ing frogs idea to just make them use all their words

Mal townreads dweelee for a pooky vote???

@Mal

state your beef w/Pookington

I presume this is the post to which you're referring. It is again, I'd argue, quite weak if it's supposed to form the precursor to a vote.

Liking Dwlee's vote doesn't mean I automatically have to SR Pooky - you can not entirely agree with a post while still thinking someone comes out of it looking more like town. I don't think Ceph's case on me is great but I actually think the post itself makes them look more townie given their beef with Roden, it indicates to me Ceph is genuinely trying to solve if they're headed in the right direction.

Other than that, your main contention seems to me forgetting I got eliminated in a first turn once, and agreeing with Frogster's mischievous but kinda fun idea that C&G should post their 100 words now to double-check whether they weren't telling the truth. It's just...not a good case from going through my ISO? It's like you were floating with the idea of honing in on me as scum and only felt confident enough to do it once Ceph put their vote there.

[MalcolmTucker]

Good stuff from Malcolm.

Bad stuff from Johnny.

Really? I was thinking the opposite.

What do you think of Ceph's 2301? I feel sort of convinced by it.

What do you find particularly convincing? Worth noting my suspicion of Roden didn't come out of nowhere - I'd already been a bit unsure on the slot but their responses to Toad made me feel more confident they could be scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

How do you tell whether Bellaphant is scum or not.
I remember a long time ago accidentally mis eliminating them for playing kind of like this.
Just sort of mild pop-ins with mild takes all game.

I don't see much of an issue with Bella's posts so far. There's nothing particularly controversial or exciting in there but I think there are some pretty clear reads and some reasonable lines of thoughts that could be coming from town. I don't really detect any sort of scum agenda as such either, most of their SRs seem understandable to me at this point in the game.

At worst I think the early vote on BBT looks a bit opportunistic but the read itself feels quite consistent even if I don't entirely disagree with it - there have been much worse votes so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

*Even though I don't entirely agree sorry, typo.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re 2368 Johnny - I'd not noticed Frog's posts you're referring to. Understandable reason to leave a SR alone for a while, I get that.

Re Pooky - I wouldn't say I'm "uncomfortable" with the TR's, I'm just not in agreement that the spreadsheet collection itself is pro-town as opposed to NAI. I don't get why you're so wary at the idea of me basically having this slot in null? Personally I'm just wary of giving the most active player in the game an easy pass on the basis of them doing something which could also have a clear benefit to scum. I thought your attempt to link that with my TR of Dwlee was pretty disingenuous, especially since my TR of Dwlee was not for the fact they suspected Pooky but more just independence of thought in a way that struck me as townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm - I see a consistent scum read on Roden in his ISO - 1191, 1785, 2229, 2265 (votes Roden), and I actually like his posts on the previous page where he was talking to Johnny

I'm not really feeling Ceph's scumcase (2301) there. I think Malcolm's Roden progression is fairly transparent. He further disliked Roden's lack of proactive curiosity towards Toad - the "evasiveness"

The "looking at Roden's ISO" could easily come from town who opened up Roden's ISO to check there wasn't something that they missed. This dislike of Roden's readlist is also tracks,

because Malcolm also has disliked Toad (who was the one with only Galron in scum reads)

and has criticized Galron for having a mostly null reads list as well.

Malcolm --> town

I'm not sure I specifically noticed this at the time re Toad but yeah, my general issue there was that there wasn't a lot going on in terms of SRs.

My opinion of Toad has since improved though - their play seems a bit more natural to me and they have a self-awareness at posting a lack of major content so far that's struck me as townie insofar they've drawn attention to it more often than I think scum would want to. I also think their response to pressure from Roden was fair and demonstrated a willingness to be interrogated and to respond, which Roden of course rejected.

I don't necessarily have an issue with a lack of SRs on D1, I get it's not easy in a game of this size and a willingness to admit you're lost can be townie vs scum who are desperate to appear busy. But with Roden it felt odd that they had one scum in their list who has the post count restriction, and another who they've consistently suspected but were unwilling to really push when given an opportunity to do so since their read didn't have that much elaboration. Almost as if they were looking for an easyish slot to sit on D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

eh i guess dwlee could be seen the same way, but i think johnnys been more present than they have so its just something that sticks out more for him.

I've been feeling Dwlee town because as outlined above their vote on Pooky felt quite left-field and townie - like it was genuinely some original thought. Their ISO in general though does feel very focused in on Pooky individually (from TR to SR) and would definitely like to see more from the slot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well that's a lot of posts to catch up with. Wish me luck.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math, why do you townread Cephrir? I thought his scumcase on Malcolm was meh, and the way the bolded was worded kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Spoiler:

Is there some question other than the quoted one that's being evaded here? It looks answered enough to me. This post feels to me like the conclusion ("I'm going to attack Roden now") came before the substance...

Roden can be interested in whatever he damn well feels like

And DNA hydra - what is there to townread there?

Still catching up so may have missed some stuff meantime, and not to speak for Math, but I personally TR'd Cephrir after their push on me because their push came in response to my pressure on Roden, and given their own spat with Roden previously it felt like an unlikely candidate for Cephrir to defend if they were scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think there's a decent chance Luke v Math was TvT, didn't agree with Luke's push but get the impression it was made in relatively good faith.

Math's pushes after joining the game didn't seem particularly scummy to me - plenty of original thought in there and a willingness to explore new ideas and possible options.

[MalcolmTucker]

My strong TR on Rad from earlier in the game has softened significantly. Perhaps it's due to my SR on Dancing Puppets softening as the game goes on, but I thought Rad's post there was particularly weak.

I understand there's not always a clear direction of thought registered in the thread when your take on a player shifts, but Rad's game for me has largely been logic-driven to a degree and it's interesting they got very defensive when they were unable to point out exactly why they were scumreading Puppets.

In general I don't think Rad's posts over the past couple of days have been as strong as they were initially.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

How come all of the leading wagons in this game are really bad?

scum are either strong players or lurking imo

If ceph flips scum, this becomes a funny post lol

I feel like it's also the type of post that can quite feasibly come from good/experienced scum? A lot of the time you assume scum maybe don't want to draw any attention to what the makeup of their team could be, but in a big game like this making associatives can be hard and I can see scum being more willingly to openly comment on what the scumteam may be like, even if only to misdirect.

I think this is a clever take. Nice.

Pooky I got some updates:

Frogster => Town
Malcolm => Town
Corwin => Scum
OTH => Null

I can see why wagons sprung up, because you would expect someone who clearly has a reputation for being decent at this game to be a leader here, but this game is hard and I don't have much direction either. Yes this could be faked and they're clearly self aware, but i'm tempted to call this slot town.

My problem with Ceph right now is his post 929 where he claims he hasn't even started playing yet.

When will Ceph start playing? Has he started now? Why hadn't he started then?

Clearly Ceph isn't going to be a town leader. By choice. Is that scummy? I dunno but it feels anti-town, as does his post about me at 1493

Good stuff from Malcolm.

Bad stuff from Johnny.

Really? I was thinking the opposite.

What do you think of Ceph's 2301? I feel sort of convinced by it.

Good stuff from Malcolm.

Bad stuff from Johnny.

Really? I was thinking the opposite.

What do you think of Ceph's 2301? I feel sort of convinced by it.

What do you find particularly convincing? Worth noting my suspicion of Roden didn't come out of nowhere - I'd already been a bit unsure on the slot but their responses to Toad made me feel more confident they could be scum.

The whole post. All his points. Like, not convincing enough to move you from town to scum and vote you right here, but enough to make me want to reread your ISO (which I'll do when I get a chance, either tonight or tomorrow... going to a concert tonight so it'll be late if I do get a chance).

Some comments I wrote up while catching up.

Re 2368 Johnny - I'd not noticed Frog's posts you're referring to. Understandable reason to leave a SR alone for a while, I get that.

It's also AtE from Johnny to get players off his back.

How was it AtE? Genuinely not seeing it.

Johnny is well within his right to play this way if he would like to, I just believe it makes him a good candidate to get booted off the island first.

Ok but how does that make him scum?

Me, lukie, the Marci hydra, bbt, maybe pengy (even tho he’s evil and stole my PURRfect page top)

Got it, so whoever reads you as town is most likely not scum. Cause town reads are so reliable. Makes sense.

Bro

I was kidding about talking to the dead

Lmafo

I’m just unhappy I’m not Juliet

Also I have given some reads.

SO YOUR ATTITUDE CAN TAKE A HIKE OK

Yoooo Mala claim town readers, wtf now?

Re Rad, who I mentioned above I'm softening on TR wise, some of their progressions here I'm not keen on - it feels a bit unnatural and as if their view of certain players flipped entirely without much justification.

For a while they seemed to be agreeing with some of my points and had me down as town. At the same time they were largely scumreading Cephrir and didn't appear to particularly trust the slot. But it didn't take much for them to suddenly agree with Cephrir's scumread of me which led them to doing a bit of a 180.

There'd been some disagreements between Ceph/Roden on Saturday but that faded away a bit once Ceph turned their attention to me - Rad's sudden turn from suspecting Ceph to suspecting me doesn't feel particularly natural and strikes me as somewhat coordinated in light of that, as if they decided I was suddenly a better target from the POV of being scum as my reads developed.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not necessarily keen on reads list, especially in a bigger game where it's genuinely hard to sort a lot of players, but this is roughly where I'd say I'm at in terms of how I'm feeling. Some players here I'd genuinely forgotten were in the game though given the size.

Town

Rad
Dunnstral
Cat Scratch Fever
Lukewarm
Taly
Frogsterking
Dwlee99
Off the Hook
T-Bone
Klick

Null/unsure

Malakittens
PookyTheMagicalBear
BlueBloodedToffee
Corwinoid
Enchant
Bellaphant
Bell
JohnnyFarrar
Cytosine and Guanine
PenguinPower

Possible scum

Galron
Cephrir
Dancing Puppets
Roden
The toad

@Pooky

Dancing Puppets and Cephrir to town.

Toad, BBT and whoever replaced Galron to null.

Rad and Johnny to scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

So I just wanted to drop some thoughts here before I move on with my day. I plan on diving into malcolm and dg's iso later as I mentioned, but that'll be slowly throughout the day and into tonight's play time. At a glance, malcolm's SR on me feels opportunistic but I need to read his reasoning closer to fully understand it. DG's moving me to null feels reasonable.

Professor's vote on me with no reason feels very opportunistic. I know, I get it... what a fucking hypocrite Rad is! It's cool. I think someone who's been reading the game for 123 pages shifting some reads without an A, B, C list of reasons is a bit different than someone who jumps in and...

There is so many posts I think I’d rather just read future posts and make my reads from there.

Establishes that they don't care what's happened in the game so far...

And then votes for the guy who's currently in the spotlight.

I dunno, I had a town read on Galron who he replaced, but I can totally see a scum enter like this.

-----------------

I understand there's not always a clear direction of thought registered in the thread when your take on a player shifts, but Rad's game for me has largely been logic-driven to a degree and it's interesting they got very defensive when they were unable to point out exactly why they were scumreading Puppets.

This post really rubs me the wrong way.

Am I generally logic driven? Absolutely. Does that mean every single decision I make has to have a logical list of reasons behind it? Of course not. How absurd. I'm also a very emotionally driven player and a newbie trying to figure out how to read in a game that's wildly difficult to follow.

I'd argue that scum!Rad is far less likely to change things up in the middle of a game than town!Rad.

If you're noticing inconsistencies, you're noticing town!Rad trying to improve. If it takes a green flip to prove that, fine, but don't come at me like I'm scum for not maintaining the exact same approach to finding scum endlessly. So I'm going with a gut feeling here instead of an X Y Z case. Yeah, and I also said I'd do my research to confirm/deny my thoughts. Is that not logical enough for your "Rad was being logical but now he's not" belief?

My strong TR on Rad from earlier in the game has softened significantly. Perhaps it's due to my SR on Dancing Puppets softening as the game goes on, but I thought Rad's post there was particularly weak.

weak isn't scummy and it's not like only scum attack town, so even if your read on DP changed to town, why would that make me more likely scum? I mean, on stats alone, there should be more town fights going on in this game than scum v town fights.

In general I don't think Rad's posts over the past couple of days have been as strong as they were initially.

How were my posts strong to begin with? The bar you're trying to set for me feels more like throwing shade intentionally than actually believing that I'm scum.

To be specific to some of your enquiries - early game I liked 336 and 340 as examples. You acknowledge the game is in its early stages and you have thoughts but don't try to force reads as such. I didn't come away from your case on Luke believing the slot to be scummy but also felt like it contained plenty of effort that was likely to come from town just putting in some work to feel out other players. Your responses to Luke when you were voted seemed fair.

In your reply, I'm really not keen on this bit: "If you're noticing inconsistencies, you're noticing town!Rad trying to improve."

Sure, inconsistencies can come from town, but they can also come from scum when they have forced reads. Your scumread on Puppets just felt off to me compared to what had gone before, as if you felt like you were running out of scumreads as you gradually dropped Toad and had to go somewhere else in a way that would show some independent thought. But you struck me as incredibly defensive when Puppets questioned you on the push and asked for specifics, as if you were self-conscious it was a weak, forced read and that you had been caught out.

Your read on me alongside the Puppets read is what makes me worry you're scum - your shift onto town Ceph and scum me at pretty much the same time made me feel like you were perhaps mounting a defence of a scum teammate as I shifted my focus onto Roden, and later Johnny.

I'm willing to shift my read back again later in the game, I had you down as a strong TR early on, but you seem like a capable and competent player and I generally like your approach when you're casing with evidence, you're absolutely the type of player I can TR early on perhaps because I want you on my side as town, but that doesn't mean you can't be scum playing a good game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Above is to Rad, I should add, since that's hidden in the spoiler quotes.

[MalcolmTucker]

i guess you all can chase your tails about meta for 30 more pages if you want but i feel like we could just vote johnny instead

Happy to move from Roden to Johnny, not been much to reverse my read from yesterday on him.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[MalcolmTucker]

...(that's a little condescending )

Also, people are really a lot more aware of their reads status than I am, generally? That's you, Luke and bbt that's bought it up.

Shit was I coming across as condescending? Sorry that wasn't my intent at all!

I'm very aware of the reads that came from pooky's collection and I think the heavy town reads absolutely need to be the focus of scum here. Any possible slip up of heavy town reads should be immediately pounced on by scum if town doesn't do it for them. Not saying it necessarily makes players who pounce scum, but it needs to happen one way or the other. So I'm definitely interested in focusing on people who may opportunistically jump at me for my DP read and the fact that you could but didn't screams townie to me.

What is your current DP read?

LOL please relax on that, I will get to you when I get to you. I'm busy responding in real time to shit and haven't even begun looking into your ISO. I'm starting to read malcolm's first anyway as his reaction to all this was way more sus. You have 268 posts, now the most in the game, and I have never ISO'd you. If town!DP, please forgive me for not having an up to date absolute read on you and instead just suggesting that maybe you're scum based on some feels I got over time. Let me get to it tonight. If I come up with a logical scum read on you I'll post my 8 page dissertation about it then.

I honestly don’t know how to read this. You sound very genuine but it’s still really strange to me that you want me to trust you on your read on me, even if it’s scum. Do you see my issue with this?

I'm not really finding Rad genuine at all with posts like that. It feels as if they know their read on you is weak and instead of acknowleding that they're keen to deflect away from it and make you feel as if you're overthinking things by pointing that out. There's frustration there but it feels like a very measured and calculated frustration, not townie annoyance.

[MalcolmTucker]

I guess I should mention though that roden!scum is contingent on ceph!town. In light of a roden!town flip I resume screaming for Ceph's head on a platter, given Roden's comments about Ceph's scum game.

I dunno, these were my thoughts yesterday but I think Ceph's pushes have generally been townie even when I've disagreed with them (i.e. on me). In light of their recent approach I think their early frustration at being scumread was probably genuine.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and add Taly to my Roden+Dwlee theory. Roden+Dwlee+Taly gives a nice trio of go-nowhere slots I imagine scum are likely to be sitting in.

I've not found any major problems in Taly's posts so far, not necessarily done anything exciting but feel like they've been inquisitive and keen to engage for the most part. Guess that could be scum trying to appear onside and townie but I'd need to do a fuller ISO there, certainly found them fine so far.

What's giving you the Dwlee+Roden connection? I TR'd Dwlee for their Pooky scumread initially and expected them to gradually work their way into the game but they've contributed little and their most recent posts are really lazy to be honest, adding little of value. Perhaps more viable it's a scum slot coasting by for now, I feel like Dwlee is typically more active than this? Albeit I think I may have only played with them the once.

[MalcolmTucker]

I guess I should mention though that roden!scum is contingent on ceph!town. In light of a roden!town flip I resume screaming for Ceph's head on a platter, given Roden's comments about Ceph's scum game.

I dunno, these were my thoughts yesterday but I think Ceph's pushes have generally been townie even when I've disagreed with them (i.e. on me). In light of their recent approach I think their early frustration at being scumread was probably genuine.

Sorry to say but they get very frustrated as scum too. Actually, that's kind of *all* that they do when pushed. Some of their mad posts are verbatim copy pastes of posts from other games. It's just their thing.
If you push extra hard sometimes they'l even go into diatribes about how annoying and tunnely you are.

Oh yeah I don't doubt that's a possibility - just I feel that some of their more recent pushes have been more reasonable and it's giving me more of a town-feeling from the slot than I had before, when I'd have agreed with Frogster that there was almost one guaranteed scum in Roden/Ceph. If Roden is scum, I don't think Ceph would have started accusing me of being scum when I started to target Roden, considering they'd already had Roden in their sights beforehand for a while.

[MalcolmTucker]

Taly, I feel like I've been a massive distrustful misanthrope.
But like, I try to kill the people that are the least sortable not the most.
Your decision to kill active posters that you think is scum isn't a good idea. Esp. Here, where there are probably two active scum posters max.

Does trying to kill an active poster you think is scum not perhaps indicate a genuine town-read on Taly's part though? I get you don't want to necessarily eliminate a valuable player unless you're certain they're not townie but it can also become easy for scum to hide behind less active and easier to eliminate players to dodge suspicion if the town can't settle on someone they actually believe to be scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

If there's one thing I show zero interest in, it's team speculation day 1

Bleh. Pluh. Puh.





Puh.

I get it's difficult to nail down D1 but it's something I unapologetically enjoy. Dunno, maybe it's just my style in that I like to look for links between different players and consider how scum teammates might interact. I'd certainly not advocate for an elimination solely on the basis of a grander team theory but I don't think there's any harm in putting ideas out there when you have them.

[MalcolmTucker]

1 Mathblade (Lukewarm)

6 Mathblade (PookyTheMagicalBear, Rad, Dunnstral, Klick, Cephrir, Bell)

This feels like a wild situation.

There were

Zero people

in this game that felt strongly enough about Corwin/Math being scum that they were voting there.

I vote

, and a wagon starts forming.

I change my mind, and start town reading the slot.

I encourage people to look elsewhere.

Suddenly, there are multiple people talking about how obviously scummy the slot is, and that is needs to die.

Like, where was all of this confidence before I sparked the wagon?

I have no idea what it means, but it feels weird.

Currently catching up. But this is a good spot. If Math is town, I wonder if scum weren't too interested in the slot, but once you started to put a bit of sustained pressure on it they reckoned it might be one they could push for an elimination?

I'm not generally keen on arguments like "people are just trying to lim me to end the day" from Math, but there's also some fair points being made that a lot of the posters voting him aren't particularly articulating an overly coherent scumcase against him (again catching up, dunno if anyone has made a better case, will soon see).

[MalcolmTucker]

Is anyone townreading Roden? I'd like to hear why

I find it a bit odd that there's not really been a lot of major attempts to defend Roden, but it's also been a bit of a struggle getting the wagon to pick up. If Roden is scum makes me wonder if teammates have stayed distance from the slot while there's not necessarily been proper sustained pressure there as such. I've yet to see anyone particularly outline why their play is town though.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Corwin got a bad rap because he started the game away from it and had to come in on the back foot with people scum reading him when he literally wasn't in the game yet. He didn't let himself get sucked into it too much. He asked questions about people's reads, he gave his own observations pretty freely without having to be pestered. When I pressed him about his read on BBT, I felt he gave the type of honest answer that scum don't often give (basically a nice nuanced idk). And yeah, I tend to town read people who have similar reads to mine. I never played with Corwin before, so it's not like he would know that and do something about it. Nor am I a big enough presence to warrant such treatment. I also thought he was pretty open to continually revaluate his reads. So like, yeah I initially town read him for a joke, but he came into it in a way that satisfied me. He also didn't make any posts I found scummy, so I don't even know of any examples in this game that would counter the positives of what I have seen.

As for Mathblade, most of his posts are NAI. It's clear he is crumbling to the pressure, but I don't think it's because he's scum, i think it's because he's frustrated. We can't scumread everyone for getting upset when they are scum read.

This post about Corwin is sort of convincing.

I disagree that Mathblade's posts are NAI though, I really don't like the points they keep bringing up about popularity in this game, I don't agree with that at all and they are making sweeping generalizations.

I also did not like that when Pooky linked games where they were indeed eliminated on day 1 Math said "only 4 times n 20 years". It was a fast rebuttal without really looking into things.

Math's arguments have been frustrating to read when trying to quickly catch up considering things very quickly end up going round in circles, but it's strengthening my TR largely because I don't think their confrontational/annoyed tone is necessarily how I'd expect scum to approach the game if they are trying to win over people who SR them. If he's town, I get the frustration of repping into a large game and facing lots of scum accusations based on the previous player who left fairly early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

There's currently four votes on Roden, Malcolm! You have the potential to make it into a real wagon

If it's more likely then Johnny, then sure, here we go.

VOTE: Roden

[MalcolmTucker]

Ngl

I’m starting to warm up to math being town

because they're salty? i don't agree at all

I think Math is a good execution not just because I think he’s wolf but because I feel he gives us the most Info as he has been the most talked about so far this game with the inclusion of his previous slot owner as well and because of the massive attention and reactions from everyone we can got allot from all players involved via Math Flip.

Things can tell us allot with his flip.

Don't particularly like this post. Could be Drapion is forgetting players don't flip when they are eliminated (I have that correct yes?), but even then I don't likely solely advocating eliminating players for "info"; it's a 26-player game with more than 150 pages, we'd surely get lots of info from pretty much anyone eliminated who's been active once we know their role further down the line, there'd only really be a lack of info from inactive players, and even then the wagons would likely still show us plenty.

[MalcolmTucker]

We flip alignment but not role

Okay, got you, that part had confused me. Makes sense, no knowledge of alignment felt like it would have been a big advantage for scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

We can also punch malcolm.

That's mean.

[MalcolmTucker]

Dwlee goes to near the bottom of my list on re-iso.

Lack of content is concerning. Wonder if they're just disengaged scum perhaps and hoping they can slip by given the size of the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

yeah, mathblade seems more concerned about defending himself than anything else. i could see that being scum, but it does feel a bit mean to jump on him like that so i could also see those emotions coming from frustrated town.
i think giving him the space would be helpful.

im all for a possible klick wagon though! votes are too wagony for my liking. i feel like thats viable scum strat and their afkness let them slid by until now.

I'm not really feeling scum Klick at all, the vote on Roden seems reasonable given there's a clear progression there from recent posts, and quite frankly we do need to start forming wagons at this point - thus far we've barely had any.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also Malcolm dropped to a scum read after his last response to my post was to basically accuse me of lying but then not push me

Catching up but this is incorrect. Was pushing Johnny incorrectly while they were around. Same with Rad. Happy to drop the vote though given the claim.

UNVOTE: Roden

[MalcolmTucker]

Not sure I 100% trust the claim necessarily but I guess it's possible.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also Malcolm dropped to a scum read after his last response to my post was to basically accuse me of lying but then not push me

Catching up but this is incorrect. Was pushing Johnny

incorrectly

while they were around. Same with Rad. Happy to drop the vote though given the claim.

UNVOTE: Roden

I thought you still scumread johnny

Apologies, I do SR them - brain fuddled up and typed incorrectly twice instead of intently.

[MalcolmTucker]

I am pretty crap with game mechanics but failing to see why second mason should not be claiming here. As someone who's scumread Roden, it'd make me feel much more relaxed about my unvote.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wait, hold on. Roles are not revealed upon death so it's surely +EV for scum to NOT have the Mason claim? If it's a fake claim, and only one of them claim, then they get a ride off of it. If it's fake, two scum would have to claim Mason to make it viable, no?

What is the downside to Mason claiming if it's true?

I'm struggling to see any downside to it. Second mason should surely claim.

[MalcolmTucker]

How do you recommend we proceed from here?

You are voting Math, is that still what you want?

Or Johnny or

DP

. Whichever y'all are willing to vote.

I still don’t understand why Johnny is scum?

Lot of content but most of it noncommittal, and when they have made pushes I feel as if they've been in bad faith a lot of the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wait, hold on. Roles are not revealed upon death so it's surely +EV for scum to NOT have the Mason claim? If it's a fake claim, and only one of them claim, then they get a ride off of it. If it's fake, two scum would have to claim Mason to make it viable, no?

What is the downside to Mason claiming if it's true?

a lot of players seem to be struggling with this concept:

masons being dead isn't good

they should easily be able to construct an unassailable crumb. like, spell out their name with the last letter of the second word in each post multiple times, or something

By the same token, if Roden is lying then scum being alive is also very much not good.

[MalcolmTucker]

The resistance to the claim continues to ping me as odd. We have no known way mechanically to either tie the players together or confirm them post mortem. So like...???

Masons are barely a town utility role anyway who cares?

Catching up. Agree with this. Not sure why the resistance went on so long. It strikes me as unlikely Dwlee/Roden lying here, happy to move on.

[MalcolmTucker]

So Roden. Did you have a super special crumb that Dwlee could have referenced after you died, like multiple players have suggested; or was there nothing like that?

Because if there was nothing like that then your partner claiming here was absolutely necessary. I would not have personally believed Dwlee if they had claimed after you had died.

Agree with this, and still not seeing Dunn scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Big no on Dweelee, Roden.

Dunn feels like a shark out for blood right now.

Do we feel like he has an agenda? Is that why we're voting him?

Again I don't really see this. Dunn made the point that Roden could be lying. This was feasible, if perhaps unlikely, given the circumstances. Dwlee's mason claim gave us more info and allowed us to ascertain that both are probably being genuine. I think Luke's read on Dunn was fairly original even if I don't agree, I think there's notably a lot of people starting to circle that wagon without committing in my catch-up. It's like people potentially want to force out a strong townie who's had some good reads but feel like it could backfire on them further down the line.

[MalcolmTucker]

@all

I think this makes sense, looking at my null reads

VOTE: Enchant

What's leading you in this direction? I find Enchant pretty impossible to read.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can't say I'm liking a lot of Drapion's posts as I catch up. Would potentially entertain a vote there but would want to do a more detailed ISO check before committing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Now that it's calmed down a little, can we (CSF + anyone else who wants to be helpful) meta dive Malcolm?

I have a hypothesis that Malcolm is more likely to get baited into 1v1 on D1 when Town than they have done thus far in this game.

I recall town!Malcolm getting involved in a lengthy 1v1 with luminous in the completed Large Normal I rolled scum in.

I could use help collecting data points on this idea, and I think it's worth pursuing because it's easily proven wrong and Malcolm is a viable lim today.

Honestly, one of the primary reasons I've not probably gotten into a lengthy 1v1 is because I'm generally asleep when there are dozens of pages of content being produced. That's not necessarily meant as a complaint - just to point out that a lot of my posts are largely having to be catch-ups as I see what's being happening with the game from the night before. I don't think I'm necessarily a hugely confrontational player but I'm not inherently opposed to conflict here either, I'm just often offline when the game is at its most active.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think that a second mason should step forward or Roden should die. I am willing to discuss this before leaping to action.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Explain

This kind of feels like a lazy vote, because just by opening Dunn's ISO, it's clear he had already explained his reasoning a lot by this point. It's not really directly engaging with any of his points imo

Agreed, I disagree with the thrust of Luke's main argument but think it's coming from town - I think a lot of the votes since then have been opportunistic. I've generally found Taly more townie than not so far but don't like that vote at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm counting 14 mafia reads on BlueBloodedToffee, 10 null reads, and 1 town read. And the 1 person townreading them has way too many town reads for them to all be accurate

So is this outdated, or is there otherwise a compelling reason as to why we are not eliminating there?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is outdated from early game. Still don't understand why BBT had so many scumreads. Certainly if it hasn't changed then that's interesting because it would indicate lots of players are SR'ing BBT but aren't actually willing to vote there for some reason. Which would be odd because I could see BBT being a viable wagon if someone who SR's them actually wants to work it up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Now that it's calmed down a little, can we (CSF + anyone else who wants to be helpful) meta dive Malcolm?

I have a hypothesis that Malcolm is more likely to get baited into 1v1 on D1 when Town than they have done thus far in this game.

I recall town!Malcolm getting involved in a lengthy 1v1 with luminous in the completed Large Normal I rolled scum in.

I could use help collecting data points on this idea, and I think it's worth pursuing because it's easily proven wrong and Malcolm is a viable lim today.

Honestly, one of the primary reasons I've not probably gotten into a lengthy 1v1 is because I'm generally asleep when there are dozens of pages of content being produced. That's not necessarily meant as a complaint - just to point out that a lot of my posts are largely having to be catch-ups as I see what's being happening with the game from the night before. I don't think I'm necessarily a hugely confrontational player but I'm not inherently opposed to conflict here either, I'm just often offline when the game is at its most active.

I think this looks like a scum excuse on paper and in the big picture I feel like you're probably telling the truth.

Yeah it's not a particularly good excuse, but if you look at when I'm posting (like right now) I'm constantly having to play catch-up.

I would argue I'm not necessarily incredibly confrontational when it comes to 1v1's - I'll get into an argument or heated discussion to push scum if I need to but I'm rarely an intensely active player who takes up pages upon pages over a read, irrespective of my alignment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm can you take a hard stance on any of Enchant/BBT/Taly

Enchant-null, hard slot to read
BBT-town
Taly-townlean, but don't like the Dunn vote

[MalcolmTucker]

Johnny or Drapion would be my preferred votes. But for the sake of compromise I guess I could consider Enchant if that gets any traction. It feels like running up someone to 14 here is going to be very difficult.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hi Malcolm, we are awake together and i change my mind on your alignment literally half way through your posts sometimes. Can you throw a question or two my way?

Sure.

What's your read on Johnny?
What's your read on Dunn?
What's making you uncertain about my alignment?

Apologies if you've already clarified any of that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why has a Frogster wagon started up again? That slot just seems obvious town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why has a Frogster wagon started up again? That slot just seems obvious town.

+1

It’s an ubershitty wagon.

I feel like I'm missing stuff because there's like 10 new pages every time I log on but I'm just not seeing Frog-scum from the past few days.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo nancy if you're town, we just don't pay nicely together. You don't understand me, I don't understand you, and we're both getting scummy reads from it. Let's just back off each other ok? I read your past town games and you focus so hard on anyone who thinks you're scum that I know I'm walking into a town death land mine discussing anything with you. How about I point out stuff I find strange about you, you point out stuff you find strange about me, and we let other people sort us out? Deal?

This feels like an odd post. It's as if Rad wants to back off from earlier Puppets reads/interactions a bit but wants to articulate a reason for doing so that seems overly townie on the off-chance anyone calls them out about it.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm completely null on Mala to be honest. But like Enchant, it's a wagon I'd potentially take and compromise on to end the day.

Would people still not consider Johnny at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm completely null on Mala to be honest. But like Enchant, it's a wagon I'd potentially take and compromise on to end the day.

Would people still not consider Johnny at all?

I don’t understand why either is scum?

General lack of content from both. It's NAI but they're quite hard to sort in general, I'd have them both at null. But they've certainly not done anything when they have posted to convince me they are town. I'd rather eliminate Johnny personally but if that's not happening I'd take a compromise wagon if we had to given it's going to be incredibly difficult to get everyone agree on a contentious choice.

[MalcolmTucker]

3/4ths if the game is treating this like goddamn RVS right now.

It’s not.

Fucking listen more

My main worry - as someone who'd contemplate one or two of these wagons to get the day over - is that it could be a very easy place for scum to hide and say they were voting on the basis of being helpful townies to end the day. I'd like to see one of the wagons run up those to see if we encounter resistance, that in itself would help us gauge our reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

Looking at those four actually, only one I'd really feel okay on is Mala and even then it's more just to end the day. I TR Frog/Dunn and townlean Taly. Don't think any of those three would be particularly good eliminations.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo nancy if you're town, we just don't pay nicely together. You don't understand me, I don't understand you, and we're both getting scummy reads from it. Let's just back off each other ok? I read your past town games and you focus so hard on anyone who thinks you're scum that I know I'm walking into a town death land mine discussing anything with you. How about I point out stuff I find strange about you, you point out stuff you find strange about me, and we let other people sort us out? Deal?

This feels like an odd post. It's as if Rad wants to back off from earlier Puppets reads/interactions a bit but wants to articulate a reason for doing so that seems overly townie on the off-chance anyone calls them out about it.

Malcolm, do you feel like you might read into things too much?

Just curious if you've run through that sort of introspection. Cause town!Malcolm is reading into it too much and just inherently disbelieving me at every turn. I couldn't help but read you scummy for it before until I got a chance to read your ISO and see how consistent you are with it.

Possibly, but then reading into things is a vital part of the game, no? Perhaps I've started to SR you and my brain is instinctively looking for reasons to validate that read - but ultimately if you hold a read on D1 as town unless the other player is rubbish (and I very much don't think you are!) you're to some degree going to have to read into things that might not end up being there or as you interpret them down the line. I'm willing to revise this view in time, I just think your read on DP has had some really scummy vibes from the start.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavor

later

Vote Count 1.28

6 Malakittens (Rad, Klick, Bellaphant, Dancing Puppets, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking)
6 Frogsterking (ProfessorDrapion, Enchant, Taly, PookyTheMagicalBear, Lukewarm, Mathblade)

3 Taly (Malakittens, Bell, Cephrir)
3 Dunnstral (BlueBloodedToffee, Roden, JohnnyFarrar)

2 JohnnyFarrar (Off the Hook, RCEnigma)

1 Enchant (T-Bone)
1 Dancing Puppets (Best Bird)
1 PookyTheMagicalBear (Dwlee99)

Not Voting (MalcolmTucker, Cytosine and Guanine, Dunnstral)

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-07-18 12:42:51)

Mod Notes

Mala on V/LA until the 16th
Titus V/LA
I think Best Bird is V/LA too
Wedding week and new job expect less from me

Johnny can still happen with the willpower. One last push before probably settling on Mala.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo nancy if you're town, we just don't pay nicely together. You don't understand me, I don't understand you, and we're both getting scummy reads from it. Let's just back off each other ok? I read your past town games and you focus so hard on anyone who thinks you're scum that I know I'm walking into a town death land mine discussing anything with you. How about I point out stuff I find strange about you, you point out stuff you find strange about me, and we let other people sort us out? Deal?

This feels like an odd post. It's as if Rad wants to back off from earlier Puppets reads/interactions a bit but wants to articulate a reason for doing so that seems overly townie on the off-chance anyone calls them out about it.

Malcolm, do you feel like you might read into things too much?

Just curious if you've run through that sort of introspection. Cause town!Malcolm is reading into it too much and just inherently disbelieving me at every turn. I couldn't help but read you scummy for it before until I got a chance to read your ISO and see how consistent you are with it.

Possibly, but then reading into things is a vital part of the game, no? Perhaps I've started to SR you and my brain is instinctively looking for reasons to validate that read - but ultimately if you hold a read on D1 as town unless the other player is rubbish (and I very much don't think you are!) you're to some degree going to have to read into things that might not end up being there or as you interpret them down the line. I'm willing to revise this view in time, I just think your read on DP has had some really scummy vibes from the start.

I find it extremely ironic that RAD is accusing someone else of reading into to things too much.

If they're town I understand the frustration but it feels like an odd criticism - D1 of this game naturally involves reading too much into things to come up with reads because ultimately it's only really scum who are informed, and even then they don't tend to have much info beyond basic alignment.

I almost get the impression Rad's scum, has been doing a good job at it, and is slightly annoyed/confused that there's finally a bit of pressure on them considering the early TR's and lack of pressure.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavor

later

Vote Count 1.28

6 Malakittens (Rad, Klick, Bellaphant, Dancing Puppets, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking)
6 Frogsterking (ProfessorDrapion, Enchant, Taly, PookyTheMagicalBear, Lukewarm, Mathblade)

3 Taly (Malakittens, Bell, Cephrir)
3 Dunnstral (BlueBloodedToffee, Roden, JohnnyFarrar)

2 JohnnyFarrar (Off the Hook, RCEnigma)

1 Enchant (T-Bone)
1 Dancing Puppets (Best Bird)
1 PookyTheMagicalBear (Dwlee99)

Not Voting (MalcolmTucker, Cytosine and Guanine, Dunnstral)

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-07-18 12:42:51)

Mod Notes

Mala on V/LA until the 16th
Titus V/LA
I think Best Bird is V/LA too
Wedding week and new job expect less from me

Johnny can still happen with the willpower. One last push before probably settling on Mala.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Oh my fucking god.

You said Taly/Dunn were viable wagons. I'd unvoted Roden and hadn't switched over to Johnny yet. Johnny is no less viable than Taly/Dunn but more importantly I think it's personally a much better wagon for us to back. If this doesn't work I will switch to Mala, deal?

[MalcolmTucker]

lol DP is so fucking aggro.

town!Rad is pointing out that town!Malcolm is overthinking things, because that's literally the case if Malcolm is town.

Could scum!Rad be trying to AtE town!Malcolm? Sure.

Could town!Rad be missing scum!Malcolm pushing more shade? Sure.

I think it's town!Malcolm here and I'm trying to reason with him. Fucking vote me if you think I'm scum already.

Again this feels like a post where you're just frustrated at being suspected because until now you'd been widely TR'd. DP is correctly pointing out that criticising a player for overthinking things is an odd approach to take when playing mafia.

I've not voted for you because I'm personally more confident on Johnny coming back as scum and because Johnny is a more viable wagon - I doubt people would be willing to vote you out and no point in starting a complete vanity wagon at this point in the day.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavor

later

Vote Count 1.28

6 Malakittens (Rad, Klick, Bellaphant, Dancing Puppets, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking)
6 Frogsterking (ProfessorDrapion, Enchant, Taly, PookyTheMagicalBear, Lukewarm, Mathblade)

3 Taly (Malakittens, Bell, Cephrir)
3 Dunnstral (BlueBloodedToffee, Roden, JohnnyFarrar)

2 JohnnyFarrar (Off the Hook, RCEnigma)

1 Enchant (T-Bone)
1 Dancing Puppets (Best Bird)
1 PookyTheMagicalBear (Dwlee99)

Not Voting (MalcolmTucker, Cytosine and Guanine, Dunnstral)

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-07-18 12:42:51)

Mod Notes

Mala on V/LA until the 16th
Titus V/LA
I think Best Bird is V/LA too
Wedding week and new job expect less from me

Johnny can still happen with the willpower. One last push before probably settling on Mala.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Oh my fucking god.

You said Taly/Dunn were viable wagons. I'd unvoted Roden and hadn't switched over to Johnny yet. Johnny is no less viable than Taly/Dunn but more importantly I think it's personally a much better wagon for us to back. If this doesn't work I will switch to Mala, deal?

Deal.

I just cut it off at three people

You makes three technically.

Add Johnny to the list

I am just beyond frustrated right now

Cool. I think Ceph had expressed an interest in Johnny. Would you vote there too? That's potentially five if so.

[MalcolmTucker]

lol DP is so fucking aggro.

town!Rad is pointing out that town!Malcolm is overthinking things, because that's literally the case if Malcolm is town.

Could scum!Rad be trying to AtE town!Malcolm? Sure.

Could town!Rad be missing scum!Malcolm pushing more shade? Sure.

I think it's town!Malcolm here and I'm trying to reason with him. Fucking vote me if you think I'm scum already.

Again this feels like a post where you're just frustrated at being suspected because until now you'd been widely TR'd. DP is correctly pointing out that criticising a player for overthinking things is an odd approach to take when playing mafia.

I've not voted for you because I'm personally more confident on Johnny coming back as scum and because Johnny is a more viable wagon - I doubt people would be willing to vote you out and no point in starting a complete vanity wagon at this point in the day.

Dude I'm not criticizing you. I'm pointing out what town!Malcolm is doing right now.

Assume I'm town!Rad for a moment instead of some sneaky scum!Rad. Is that not what town!Rad's doing?

I guess so, obviously my contention there would be it's the exact approach I'd expect from scum Rad too. Your frustration does read as slightly genuine to me but again I'm aware scum can sometimes genuinely get frustrated too when they've dodged suspicion and then come to the fore a little bit. But not too many people have been pressing for you to go out so I suppose said pressure is mostly still minimal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Looks like I have missed about 40 pages again.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anything important happen or still going in circles before we eliminate someone we were probably going to eliminate 2,000 posts ago?

[MalcolmTucker]

Lmao both players feel like town to me, I don't like this at all. Need to think.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anything important happen or still going in circles before we eliminate someone we were probably going to eliminate 2,000 posts ago?

I claimed 2 shot town aligned role cop fyi and I SR Math and Pooky

That isn't important to them.

I mean it's useful to know going forward even if it's irrelevant to the vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

This is frustrating given I TR both players but can't see Ceph doing this as scum. Open to persuasion otherwise but I agree with Luke a no-elim is generally a bad idea from an information POV. Sorry Taly.

VOTE: Taly

[MalcolmTucker]

Could deliberate over it for ages but fundamentally seems like it would be such a bizarre gambit for scum Ceph to take? On the off-chance it didn't work out it'd be major self-sabotage.

[MalcolmTucker]

I guess scum Ceph could do it on the basis relatively simplistic people like me won't think scum Ceph could do this? But I don't know, I'm not seeing it.

[MalcolmTucker]

How tf has this not been decided yet. Hurry up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Have I missed much?

[MalcolmTucker]

This day refuses to end.

[MalcolmTucker]

How tf has this not been decided yet. Hurry up.

Vote Cephrir.

Why? Explain in a sentence please. Simply do not have the time to read about 40 pages right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still think

Ceph's

gladiate was scum motivated, it's predictable that I lose. Even if it isn't likely that it wasn't to save a buddy ~based purely off

Luke's

post refuting it earlier~ I still don't think their suspicion of me comes from town.

It literally started from me replying to a question in one of my first posts where

Johnny

asked about the people I were familiar with in this game.

And

Ceph

has since spent that time pushing

Johnny

and keeping quiet about his scumread on me until I became a viable option.

Which scum-buddy do we reckon Ceph was saving? What is happening? Can someone please sum up like the last 30 pages I've missed in a sentence or two? This post count is absurd and impossible to keep up with, especially when it's a 1v1.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still think

Ceph's

gladiate was scum motivated, it's predictable that I lose. Even if it isn't likely that it wasn't to save a buddy ~based purely off

Luke's

post refuting it earlier~ I still don't think their suspicion of me comes from town.

It literally started from me replying to a question in one of my first posts where

Johnny

asked about the people I were familiar with in this game.

And

Ceph

has since spent that time pushing

Johnny

and keeping quiet about his scumread on me until I became a viable option.

Which scum-buddy do we reckon Ceph was saving? What is happening? Can someone please sum up like the last 30 pages I've missed in a sentence or two? This post count is absurd and impossible to keep up with, especially when it's a 1v1.

i posited

frogs/mala

or -less likely-

johnny/dunn

as options.

Mala could maybe work. There was momentum gathering behind that and it seemed increasingly feasible. Frog I still maintain is town.

Johnny is someone Ceph was willing to vote for. Not buying that. Dunn would potentially be feasible but I think Dunn is town, so I'm doubtful.

So Mala is really the only one I buy but it is conceivable. If nobody plans to hammer soon I'll think it out overnight.

[MalcolmTucker]

Did C&G's votes count as posts? Taking them out I get just below 100 which feels like it would potentially check out.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh yeah I forgot I made this during the night:



So during the night I was also taking a look at my original slot owners reads.

Turns out both me and him got wolf vibes from Frog.

Although he TR’ed CSF/Dunn/T-Bone, I however have not arrived there as I see them all as potential wolves.

His main wolf reads though were RCE and Bell.
So I’ll stick with my Bell Wolf Read.

Something I also noticed from reading my previous slot owners ISO is that Malcolm called out my slow owners reads

despite them already claiming they copied most of it from Rad.

So that seems like potential scum motivation from Malcolm on my slot.



Even though Cephrir flipped town I still like the way Rad voted them. Also since my original slot owner town read Rad as well I’ll definitely keep Rad in my Townreads.

Two responses to this:

1. It's a big game, quite possible I can't recall them saying they copied Rad. There's plenty of things I'll have missed or skimmed over.

2. I scumread Rad for part of yesterday anyway so I don't think this is incoherent within my line of thinking. If I see a player playing in a similar way to someone I think is scum, I'm probably going to potentiallt scumread them for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading back some of Rad's posts from later D1 and they feel incredibly scummy.

Lot of their posts toward the end feel indecisive in a way that's quite unnatural, as if they were unsure where to lean. Manage to go from voting Taly, to advocating for no elimination, to then voting out Ceph in a relatively short space of time. The progression doesn't work for me as being from town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Made the case before that their case on Puppets was really odd - no real reasoning for it and they became very tetchy when questioned here. Tried to deflect by saying I was reading too much into them, very much tried to back off Puppets gradually without suddenly just dropping the read in case doing so appeared too forced.

Not too keen on the way they unvoted Mala in 5821. Again they point out Mala hasn't engaged much despite the complaints about having to catch up and I was at a point in D1 where I'd have agreed Mala was a reasonable compromise wagon. But instead of continuing on this path and trying to force more from Mala, Rad just sort of backs off immediately instead of continuing in their efforts to push the slot, despite also sort of not really rescinding the scumread either?

I think Rad maybe voted Taly when the gladiate first happened because they felt it was the only viable option for scum to pursue, even if getting rid of Ceph could potentially be advantageous. Rad then suddenly unvotes and is baffled at the idea of others wanting to kill Taly - seems they are perhaps positioning themselves as scum who sits off the vote entirely, so either way they don't look suspect when the loser of the gladiate comes back as town (presuming Taly is also town in this scenario). But then the momentum begins to shift to Ceph and it instead becomes conductive for scum to eliminate there instead.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math doesn't feel like he did in our last two games where I was convinced he was town, but I was asked to meta him in one of them and found him inconsistent throughout. It says something about me that I find them an easier town read when they are being adamantly ridiculous.

I'm finding Math incredibly hard to read. Feel like so much of the discussion surrounding their slot has revolved around Corwin which has obscured being able to read posts from Math himself, if that makes sense. I feel like a lot of my TR's are suspicious on the slot though so I need to give Math more attention.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavor

you may only vote for Taly or Cephrir

Vote Count 1.31

13 Cephrir (ProfessorDrapion, JohnnyFarrar, Taly, Off the Hook, Malakittens, Lukewarm, T-Bone, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rad, Dancing Puppets, Mathblade, RCEnigma, Bell)
7 Taly (Dunnstral, Cephrir, Frogsterking, Klick, MalcolmTucker, Roden, Cat Scratch Fever)

Not Voting (Cytosine and Guanine, Enchant, Bellaphant, BlueBloodedToffee, Dwlee99, Best Bird)

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-07-18 12:42:51)

Mod Notes

Replacing Klick
Mala on V/LA until the 16th
Titus V/LA
Best Bird V/LA
Taly V/LA
Lukewarm V/LA
Mathblade V/LA
Wedding week and new job expect less from me

So three of taly's voters flip town
1 is mason and 1 is klick which is the person I subbed for and know that is town.
any reason why we shouldn't speed lunch taly here?
I'll try to read malcolm and cat

You may have missed that there was a gladiate between Ceph and Taly day 1, which kinda messes with this line of thinking imo

thats fair
although from a quick skim of taly's iso.
they didnt have an initial read on ceph before the gladiate and their case against ceph centered around the whole gladiate thing being scum motivated.
This could probably be excused due to it being 1v1 but still a bit of bad look.
will look forward to how they will bounce back today after they were wrong on their reads.

I can see this from town Taly to be fair. The gladiate itself seemed a bit...out of nowhere at the time and if you're a townie who's not exactly on the verge of being eliminated, I can see why you'd grow convinced that scum are trying to forcibly eliminate you from the game. I think Ceph was town and I think some of the votes to eliminate them are incredibly suspect, but the motivation for why scum Ceph might go for the gladiate wasn't entirely terrible and given how the votes lined up, it's clear some townies bought into that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading back some of Rad's posts from later D1 and they feel incredibly scummy.

Lot of their posts toward the end feel indecisive in a way that's quite unnatural, as if they were unsure where to lean. Manage to go from voting Taly, to advocating for no elimination, to then voting out Ceph in a relatively short space of time. The progression doesn't work for me as being from town.

Imma be real

I think I did this flip flopping too

Oh I don't doubt a lot of us were uncertain, especially given there were plenty of consensus TR's on both Ceph and Taly.

I outlined in more detail but it's more the way Rad managed to explicitly go from Taly > no elim > Ceph in what I'd argue was a relatively short space of time. There's other posts prefacing this with "my reads aren't great" type content which feels a bit like self-conscious scum to me who was unsure where best to place themselves toward the end of D1 while everyone else was shifting around.

The only thing that's dampening the read a little bit is that I largely townread Taly - if I didn't this would absolutely read like scum who wanted to bus but then wavered, before finally eliminating a townie when the opportunity to do so seemed more viable.

[MalcolmTucker]

this is what I was worried about earlier today on frogs/mala/taly being T/T/T but everybody wants to consolidate somewhere and i never understood the johnny scumreads tbh.

My Johnny scumread is that he did 2 ISOs on Malcolm and Ceph, shaded Malcolm who looked townier out of that interaction, and then seemed to have lost a lot of wim

He could be town struggling to keep up, but idk that could easily come from scum too?

Luke, I think you're misreading Frogster for doing weird, outlandish things when in my experience, it's usually wild townies who do stuff like that and get mislimmed for it.

He's really actively engaged in this game in a way that he's not when he's scum. He made <300 posts in his last Large Normal scumgame over the course of 1.5 months. He's made nearly 400 posts here in less than one game day. The disparity in engagement here is just not the same.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I can translate

Frogster doesn't have a guilty on Luke, he just really believes Luke is scum

I don't think Luke is scum, he's been scumreading you since like forever

Frog can you use it during the day?

Still think this is scum

Johnny has posted but not given his opinion on Frogster. That's the most interesting thing I've noticed

I will hammer Frogster. I have said this before

I still think he will flip town

But the silver lining in that scenario is that at least hopefully Drapion will stop being annoying

Reading back, Cat, and I do see you had an absolutely identical to Rad...which does give me pause, but I'd argue that all the posts have highlighted above are very solidly town, albeit I'm aware I could be blinded by someone having similar reads to me.

But you'd prefaced before that you would be willing to eliminate a townie if it finally brought the day to an end, your read on Frog was basically correct, I like your scumread on Johnny, and your views seem pretty balanced. Maybe I'm being a bit blinded by the similar nature of our reads...but I also feel you'd have no reason to bring up some similarities between your play and Rad's play that I've missed if you were scum. You've given me more info I didn't necessarily notice before and that's inherently quite pro-town in itself to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

*identical progression

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavor

you may only vote for Taly or Cephrir

Vote Count 1.31

13 Cephrir (ProfessorDrapion, JohnnyFarrar, Taly, Off the Hook, Malakittens, Lukewarm, T-Bone, PookyTheMagicalBear, Rad, Dancing Puppets, Mathblade, RCEnigma, Bell)
7 Taly (Dunnstral, Cephrir, Frogsterking, Klick, MalcolmTucker, Roden, Cat Scratch Fever)

Not Voting (Cytosine and Guanine, Enchant, Bellaphant, BlueBloodedToffee, Dwlee99, Best Bird)

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to yeet.

Deadline: (expired on 2022-07-18 12:42:51)

Mod Notes

Replacing Klick
Mala on V/LA until the 16th
Titus V/LA
Best Bird V/LA
Taly V/LA
Lukewarm V/LA
Mathblade V/LA
Wedding week and new job expect less from me

So three of taly's voters flip town
1 is mason and 1 is klick which is the person I subbed for and know that is town.
any reason why we shouldn't speed lunch taly here?
I'll try to read malcolm and cat

You may have missed that there was a gladiate between Ceph and Taly day 1, which kinda messes with this line of thinking imo

thats fair
although from a quick skim of taly's iso.
they didnt have an initial read on ceph before the gladiate and their case against ceph centered around the whole gladiate thing being scum motivated.
This could probably be excused due to it being 1v1 but still a bit of bad look.
will look forward to how they will bounce back today after they were wrong on their reads.

I can see this from town Taly to be fair. The gladiate itself seemed a bit...out of nowhere at the time and if you're a townie who's not exactly on the verge of being eliminated, I can see why you'd grow convinced that scum are trying to forcibly eliminate you from the game.

I think Ceph was town and I think some of the votes to eliminate them are incredibly suspect, but the motivation for why scum Ceph might go for the gladiate wasn't entirely terrible and given how the votes lined up, it's clear some townies bought into that.

what are you trying to say with the bolded sentence?

Some votes on ceph are incredibly suspect but also townies also voted them?

Yes? That's pretty obvious. Ceph got a majority of votes and thereby likely had a combo of scum positioning on them and town genuinely being convinced that it was a scum gambit. I didn't particularly buy into that but understood where the thought process was coming from toward the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

@ Malcolm,

I noped out of the rad/dp thing when there were like five pages of people deciding it was scumny that rads read changed, when it really wasn't.

In fact my read was wavering on dp around the same time and suddenly that fact seemed controversial?

Re: the gladiator, I was out of my depth here - I didn't have much of a read on Taly, I'd been saying that ceph was scum for ages to what felt like a fair amount of push back, but the gladiate itself felt town, although the target seemed a bit weird. So I think quite a few people's position around it was a.bit 'whiplash-y'.

CSF is still obv town.

Re math - when I've seen him be so odd, though, it's rarely been about himself, more mech or other people.

It's not that Rad's read changed that was the problem, it's that the original read was backed up by nothing and the way they backed out of it was very tentative and felt too self-aware, as if they regretted ever pursuing DP in the first place. To me that'd make sense from a scum POV where scum is self-aware that they are having to manufacture a push against someone they know is town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Dancing Puppets...

[MalcolmTucker]

Mod makes up post limitation as a game design element and ignores it? I don't buy it.

Player gets limitation and doesn't care what happens if they go over? I don't buy it.

2129 isn't a naked quote, it's a quote from one of the hydra's players who accidentally posted under the wrong account. If the player didn't accidentally post it under the wrong account, it would have been a 2 word post under the C&G account.

Fake post restriction.

VOTE: Cytosine and Guanine

Also Corwin must not have asked C&G about the penalty either. Seems like a pretty reasonable thing to ask if you're town and want to know what happens if they go over it. I mean why not? That's not something we want them explaining when they're restricted to 100 words. But Corwin/Math could have easily found out if they cared and let us all know.

This vote is also very lazy from Rad. I understand the desire to check C&G complied with the posting limit but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some rather simple ways around it they exploited if they appear to be slightly over. I simply refuse to believe a slot would fake a 100-post restriction and then end up accidentally going over by two or three words, and I think any pushes there today could potentially be lazier scum trying to avoid going for a contentious target.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Mathblade

VOTE: Taly

Lunch

This is making me consider voting Math or Enchant.

Enchant has a tendency as scum to make it super obvious who his buddies are if either/both he and Math are scum here.

Enchant is typically hard to read either way but looking through their ISO I feel like there's even less content than usual given the number of posts?

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect Math's D1 vote on Klick doesn't really look particularly great to me now.

Early on I felt the slot's frustration was quite genuine after replacing-in given I didn't find Corwin all that scummy.

But from an ISO scum a lot of the "I'm just responding to accusations" and general frustration with the gamestate starts to feel performative.

Then there's eventually a pretty blatant jump from Klick to backing whoever the top wagon they didn't TR was. Obviously a few of us were starting to consider doing this by this point in the game but Math's jump felt a bit more blatant, and could perhaps be explained as them using the cover of annoyance with the post count to try and force through a townie elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect Math's D1 vote on Klick doesn't really look particularly great to me now.

Early on I felt the slot's frustration was quite genuine after replacing-in given I didn't find Corwin all that scummy.

But from an ISO scum

a lot of the "I'm just responding to accusations" and general frustration with the gamestate starts to feel performative.

Then there's eventually a pretty blatant jump from Klick to backing whoever the top wagon they didn't TR was. Obviously a few of us were starting to consider doing this by this point in the game but Math's jump felt a bit more blatant, and could perhaps be explained as them using the cover of annoyance with the post count to try and force through a townie elimination.

From an IMO skim lmao.

[MalcolmTucker]

Presuming Taly is town here though, wouldn't scum Enchant be more inclined to vote on either wagon? Easy cover if they vote for someone who is eliminated and comes back town given the gladiate thing. I know Enchant likes to hammer though.

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect Math's D1 vote on Klick doesn't really look particularly great to me now.

Early on I felt the slot's frustration was quite genuine after replacing-in given I didn't find Corwin all that scummy.

But from an ISO scum

a lot of the "I'm just responding to accusations" and general frustration with the gamestate starts to feel performative.

Then there's eventually a pretty blatant jump from Klick to backing whoever the top wagon they didn't TR was. Obviously a few of us were starting to consider doing this by this point in the game but Math's jump felt a bit more blatant, and could perhaps be explained as them using the cover of annoyance with the post count to try and force through a townie elimination.

From an IMO skim lmao.

ISO, can't spell in the heat.

[MalcolmTucker]

Presuming Taly is town here though

Why are we doing this?

It was in my hypothetical scenario, but I do TR Taly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, you're wrong on me and your push is awful. You're saying it's unlikely that in a 26 player game, 21 of which are town, that we would have 3 D1 wagons on town? Like, the wagons on 6 or 7 votes are pretty much meaningless given they're barely 50% of the way to a lim. I don't see what you're getting at at all? The kill on a Mason makes little sense does it? Your NKA is just as bad as your VCA.

Why is the Math push easy and why does easy = town? As if Math being sick has absolutely anything to do with the vote, let's not get silly here.

I don't necessarily agree that the Math push is "easy" but can understand the logic that it feels like the most common/repeated suggestion that's been coming up since shortly after they replaced into the game, and if Math comes back town then it's definitely a useful slot for scum to push. All that being said I don't think it necessarily detracts from the overall argument that there's a reasonable chance of them being scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Presuming Taly is town here though

Why are we doing this?

It was in my hypothetical scenario, but I do TR Taly.

ok - but why? you were on the taly wagon yesterday, no?

Because it was a gladiate. We had to vote out Ceph or Taly. I didn't want no lim, and fundamentally didn't believe in the end that scum Ceph would have risked gladiating Taly D1 when they were unlikely to be voted out anyway. I had my doubts and understand why other people felt it could be a scum gambit but didn't think it was worth the risk in the end. I'd also TR'd Ceph for a while before the gladiate anyway, so was in a position where I'd have to vote for someone I didn't really think was scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Because it was a gladiate. We had to vote out Ceph or Taly. I didn't want no lim, and fundamentally didn't believe in the end that scum Ceph would have risked gladiating Taly D1 when they were unlikely to be voted out anyway. I had my doubts and understand why other people felt it could be a scum gambit but didn't think it was worth the risk in the end. I'd also TR'd Ceph for a while before the gladiate anyway, so was in a position where I'd have to vote for someone I didn't really think was scum.

ok - that explains why you were on wagon, but why are you tr'ing taly?

I feel like their posts have been pretty good/reasonable on the whole - keen to solve the game but not particularly pursuing things with a deliberate or manipulative agenda, and active and engaging when pushed or pressed.

I also thought they responded to the gladiate pretty reasonably given the circumstances. Given the surprising nature of it I could see scum flailing around a lot more there and growing much more desperate to remain in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think DP is a town but don't think the push is particularly detailed which is what's angering BBT, and I think BBT is likely town as a result and doesn't understand why they're being scumread given they've understandably not managed to keep up with the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again worry we're getting into a situation where townies potentially argue in circles and scum sit back and watch it happen with glee.

[MalcolmTucker]

To expand on BBT - their regular complaints about game size just don't strike me as scummy. I think they're good enough at the game that as scum they would be able to come up with a more developed reason for being disengaged if they had too. And despite acknowledging they're behind there are still actual reads and opinions coming from the slot all the same. Scum can lie obviously but it's also inherently easier for scum to keep up with the game when behind because their buddies can tell them what's going on if need be. The general complaint about the posting volume is also completely valid given how D1 went; genuinely hundreds of pages only to end up with a gladiate of two players most of us reckoned were town to a degree anyway. If we've been on the wrong track then I don't think it benefits scum to moan about the post volume - it doesn't appear to have been doing them any harm so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

STD has confirmed the IC thing is bogus, so maybe revote there?

Btw, extremely solid on Taly!town here. I hard veto any votes on them.

I think that's the sort of jokey thing Enchant could say regardless of alignment but definitely willing to consider eliminating there on the basis of their wider play.

[MalcolmTucker]

Because Dunn died for reasons?

Or for the same reasons you decided to try and scum read me?

By the sounds of it Dunn probably died for soft-claiming. Could be some self-motivation re players he scumread, but in a game of this size if you're scum then one townie sussing you without proof isn't necessarily something to worry about too much.

[MalcolmTucker]

My point specifically is that 1 veto only seems particularly scum-driven in order to mitigate DP's ability to interfere with Bell's pushes. I don't really feel that Bell should be specifically granting DP a veto and the fact that you're pushing that I am is strange.

The idea of a "veto" is essentially a bit meaningless anyway, the rest of the game is entitled to push who they want and while DP can defend them it's not an exemption from elimination, otherwise nobody would ever be voted out barring the occasional consensus.

[MalcolmTucker]

Weren't you the one claiming (or agreeing with the person claiming) that scum would magically try and lim Taly on Day 2 because they knew Ceph would flip town? I'm sorry if I'm misattributing that take to you...but that's the take I was mocking.

I wanted a no lim because I thought scum would be more likely to push the survivor of the gladiate, whichever way it went and I think Ceph probably would have been even more likely to be wagoned than Taly in that case.

Scum could have pushed there but not 100% convinced Ceph would have been easily wagoned this turn. Plenty of people who TR'd them and they could've tried to argue it was just a bold town gambit that failed - again, like with the gladiate itself, the motive to do it doesn't work if Ceph reckons they're just getting eliminated the next day anyway. And again in a game of this size actually maintaining a wagon without it seeming too forced won't be easy for scum unless lots of others are onboard.

[MalcolmTucker]

my belief is scum wanted Taly out before he becomes unassailable by being obvtown

I think Bell acted in such a manner via his baselessly strong push for Taly's death D1, and I think he would view it as furthering wincon if he could trade a Taly veto for locking DP out of any further vetoes.

~GE

This feels like a silly thing to believe.

Ceph chose Taly for the gladiate. Ceph flipped town.

When the gladiate happened, every single flips townie (Dunn, Frog, and Ceph) and one of the masons (Roden) voted for Taly.

(I was also voting Taly, but you don't know my alignement, so :shrug:)

Acting like the push for Taly was some scum plot feels reductive.

------

This has been a consistent and repeated trend of me seeing post after post of people saying: I think that the scum team is doing

_(Something that Luke was doing)_

---

Which really messes with me. Because on one hand it, it makes me want to completely ignore the argument because I know that a townie was thinking/doing the thing. But on the other hand it makes me want to shout at people: "THEN WHY ARE YOU NOT SCUM READING ME"

Agreed, if Taly is town I imagine scum took a mix of approaches - probably tried to even themselves out a bit, and in one or two cases I wouldn't be shocked if there's some panicky types who jumped around a bit for what they believed to be the most opportune elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Because Dunn died for reasons?

Or for the same reasons you decided to try and scum read me?

By the sounds of it Dunn probably died for soft-claiming. Could be some self-motivation re players he scumread, but in a game of this size if you're scum then one townie sussing you without proof isn't necessarily something to worry about too much.

it's a really bad look that BBT is making a big deal of "Dunn was pushing BBT before he died" as a point and trying to deflect it onto

literally anyone else

~GE

Only issue is, if BBT was scum would he want to remind everyone of Dunn SR's him?

[MalcolmTucker]

Massively behind and another busy day tomorrow, will be more active Friday, anything I should catch up on?

[MalcolmTucker]

has malcolm responded since the wagon on them started yet or no

Been busy to the point where I'd not been aware of there being a wagon on me. What's up?

[MalcolmTucker]

I reckon Luke and Rad is probably TvT. I don't agree with Rad on the read but they are making a genuine effort to solve early on even if their conclusions aren't necessarily correct. Attempts to drive the game forward earn townpoints from me and Luke doesn't strike me as the type of player to go after if you're scum wanting to appear busy.

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

another post from malcolm early on that I don't like
this is in response to rad's case on luke 340 which is a reasonable case early on.
he didn't have any luke reads before this yet he called them TvT just because luke is pushing the game forward and he even called rad's conclusions 'not necessarily correct'.
I assume luke was a high poster during this time which makes for an easy town read to get away with.

Part of my TR of Luke came from us being in a hood together and whether it's for right or wrong their tone in said hood has felt townie to me, and nothing in their play since has indicated scum to me.

Surely the fact I TR'd Rad early on should indicate I'm not just hyperfocusing on one player? I thought they were pretty solid early game but my read has since evolved a bit, as is evidenced by SR'ing them. Trying to catch up though so could of course evolve again.

[MalcolmTucker]

what does this mean
is it a scummy post?

100%. Reeks of TMI. Like, you're confident enough to say that Math will flip town but not confident enough to do anything about it?

You bet Mathblade is town = confident
But your read is flimsy so you won't defend = not confident?

Your sentences literally contradict each other

BBT, I get the scum angle here, but how is it any more convincing than the town angle of "that's just literally how he's thinking about it"? He just joined the game yesterday. If he's town, doesn't it make sense that he'd be looking at the Math wagon and trying to figure out how legit it is, and after some time reading he might have that basic level of certainty/uncertainty? I mean shit, I've read the entire game and that's about the level of certainty I have on the Math wagon as well - not certain at all and something feels off.

Are you basing your vote on anything else besides this statement from him + Klick explaining town reads easier than scum reads?

Catching up - I'm split on this but it's not a terrible take from BBT. The "Math is probably town" very much feels like it could be scum hedging their bets and wanting to look like a correct townie if Math goes out. Mislim seems a bit bold for scum and I TR'd Klick, but it's also possible I guess for confident scum to come into the game a good way through and manage to miss some key points or be a bit too bold, as Mislim seems to be doing.

[MalcolmTucker]

At least one of Luke/Pooky/OTH are scum. Scum are driving the game too well for all of those to be town IMO

I confused by the make up of this trio? How did you land on these three?

These are the 3 that worry me most and I feel are pretty much universally town read and therefore unsuspected.

I think I could be holding onto an early scum read of OTH too hard though. I probably need to reevaluate that read at some point.

Pooky posts a lot but I literally can't think of anything that they have said this game.

You say all the right things and pick up on things that makes you town read people. But I don't see you aggressively pushing scum reads and this is the part that worries me.

If I'm completely honest, I'm also shocked that Dunn was killed over you/Pooky or someone else like that.

These reads can go on the back burner until Tomorrow or even D4 though. If you're all still alive, then questions will need to be asked.

This is an alright post from BBT - think they're harsh on Luke who I believe has pushed other players but they're fundamentally correct that some players are being given an easy ride, perhaps due to game size. Really not seeing the scum arguments for BBT at all, solid contributions.

[MalcolmTucker]

thats too many words for an old bear like me to read eager puppy

gonna need a tldr

this post is absolutely horrible and I hate the idea of having to explain why

you may hate the idea, but what about the action of explaining why...for those of us with bird brains.

If you've played mafia for awhile now I'm sure you've encountered one of those wordy posts that scum makes to look busy but the contents are pretty weak.

here malcolm did a play by play by commentary on rad's action while adding a bit of his own scum narrative as if every rad's actions are scum motivated.
they made it as if it's a big solid case but the content are weak and could be summed up in a few sentences

I'm bad at being concise, it's a habit of mine irrespective of alignment to be honest. I think your argument is weak. I outlined clearly why I believed Rad was potential scum on the basis of their posting. The point of the game, when you scumread someone, is to explain why. I tend to over-explain in an attempt to get my point across when I'm making it. Ironically feel like you're clutching at straws with your scumread here in the exact same way you're accusing me of doing.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think it's a bad take at all.

The way Malcolm describes my play is heavily descriptive on the scum!Rad side. I'm the sneaky snake scum and every single thing I do can be explained by some sneaky snake scum motivation. Read through Malcolm's content about me and tell me it doesn't read like a fucking mystery novel describing events in detail that assumes my scummy emotions at every turn.

I haven't concluded why he's approaching his cases about me like this, but I think it's probably 1 of 2 options.

1. town!Malcolm is conf biased as fuck and can only view my actions through the Rad Is Scum FOR SURE lense.

2. scum!Malcolm is bloating his cases on me with all the nonsense that Mislim Bait has spotted.

My scumread on you has weakened on the basis of your recent posting, feel like it's a lot more townie and to be honest it's possible I was tunnelled when a few of your posts pinged me as potential mafia.

But I don't think there was anything wrong with the read in itself. The point of this game is to theorise players and either come up with reasons for them being town or mafia. When I don't have decisive reads I'm often accused of being hedgy. When I do come up with a decisive read (typically once the game is more developed) I'm accused of being too tunnelled or too hyper-focused on one player. It's just an easy way to bat off accusations.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd still be up for a Johnny wagon. Nothing to convince me they aren't scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MathBlade

I'll accept this, don't feel like we'll go anywhere else and I think there's a decent chance of catching scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Did someone mention C&G/Math unlikely to be scum together due to their hood? I wouldn't be against eliminating C&G but would prefer Math out of the two. Of course, suppose there's a chance they could be scum and lied about having a hood at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

You have subscribed to Penguin Facts!

Spoiler: Penguin Facts #1

Fun facts. I'll incorporate these into my novel.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh we've hammered? Cool, at least this turn was shorter than D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

Would scum!Johnny be in a good enough spot to try to save Math? With how much everyone wanted Math dead, I feel like that means he got bussed.

Then again, the Day went on for awhile even after Math replaced out and no one else replaced in. That does seem to imply that there was a legitimate attempt to save him.

I imagine some scum bussed but would still expect one or two teammates to maybe make a token effort to save? Could have been a bit too obvious if all scum jumped on the wagon perhaps, especially trying a 180 at the end. The wagon felt pretty organic in the way it built up for the most part.

[MalcolmTucker]

It felt like mislim Bait was pushing hard to get the malcolm counter wagon to be a thing.

But, looking back at klick I feel it less.

So, sure.

Felt like Mislim's push on me was a bit too aggressive/incoherent to be scum, felt more like confident town replacing in and just going all-out with their reads right away while lacking context from earlier in the game. Other players who were keen to jump on my wagon despite not showing any preference towards it beforehand are suspect for me though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sure, but why? It wasn't certain that Math would get elimmed and I don't think anyone would get cred for bussing me given how widely I've been scum read this entire game.

Like, he literally opened his D2 pushing me. That's never s/s. Not to mention Corwin default scum reading me for BS reasons as well.

I'm just never scum with Math

Agree with this, but then I'm a bit baffled as to why people have continually been scumreading BBT all game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Little reason to doubt PD's claim here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Math coming back scum also solidifies my scumread of Johnny. Little reason they can't be in a team together.

[MalcolmTucker]

There was a lot of interaction between Corwin/Johnny early on and Corwin had an unprompted suspicion of BBT which didn't really go away at all. I get throwing a teammate into your scum list early on but the subsequent posts/discussions between them (from two players who were pretty low activity at that point) seems unlikely to be scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't see any reason Enchant/Math can't possibly be a team too.

[MalcolmTucker]

Masons need to step the fuck up as well. You guys are being left alive over other players and you're pretty much confirmed town.

Scum clearly not worried about BB's power either...

And both Luke and Pooky are still alive. Awesome stuff.

I was thinking about that, maybe they’re not worried about who he talked to?

Yeah, I’m surprised it was Bell who died, I thought one of the masons, BB or maybe Pooky.

Wonder if masons have been left since both slots have been relatively quiet in terms of posting thus far. Normally a slot to want gone but scum don't need to have the same urgency there when they're relatively low-activity compared to some players.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean, if you disagree you have a PT for that sort of shit no?

What do you gain, as town, by pubicly displaying dissonance? As opposed to keeping the read in the PT until it's agreed?

By the same token, do you not think a scum hydra would perhaps be more careful/aware of wanting to appear coherent to avoid suspicion?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm wary of Bella's claim - seems convoluted compared to them being scum and they seemed very hedgy/hesitant about revealing at all when it should have been clear for town that a reveal was the best option. But also wary of potentially yeeting out someone with an important role so happy to vote elsewhere today if that's consensus.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was happy to do math or c and g yesterday, which is what we did. I was fine with elim-ing then because I realised my unsure read probably made them scum, but they replaced out.

? @ Luke, id taken advice from people by then. It did change my mind/ I felt I had to claim.

How come you didn't claim immediately? I'm often hesitant myself with big reveals but seemed pretty clear from the moment PD came forward that you'd either have to claim a role or be eliminated. The hedginess is what's giving me doubt here.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’d be more inclined to believe it if Bella had mentioned it before Nancy brought it up.

Agreed, the general hesitancy in the claim makes me think Bella is probably scum and just wasn't sure how to deal with being caught.

[MalcolmTucker]

Enchant is probably town lol

Their strong insistence on this elimination is making me think so too. Can't see scum pushing this hard if Bellaphant is somehow telling the truth, which seems unlikely. Other option is Enchant/Bella are a team and have decided to bus but unsure whether scum would at least make a slight attempt at saving scum Bella here.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Bellaphant

[MalcolmTucker]

Wait how close to elimination are we? Happy to rescind for now if anything needs discussed further. Realised we may be at around E-1 or E-2 now?

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah let's blahblahblah for 10 days.
Wonderful.


I am prodging from this point.

Nobody is saying we'll go back and forth for 10 days. I'm pretty happy to eliminate Bella soon given clear consensus. Just fair enough to give people who could get NK'd a chance to speak/say anything they want to say which could be of use going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

I can't see Bella flipping town and would still advocate for us eliminating there. Mislim Bait's arguments are correct. DP is still town though.

In some convoluted scenario where Bella somehow ends up being town here, is it not possible scum would just eliminate Drapion anyway to misdirect us so we end up voting out Bella tomorrow after all? Or if they fear Drapion could be protected, would they not just vote somewhere else entirely?

Still struggling to see past a Bella vote as the way to go.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yo we already decided Juliet (bella claim) could be doc.

Did Bella steal it from a scum partner? Sure maybe.

If PD dies tonight we flip bella, 100%.

If Bella is town doc PD doesn't die. Bella dies or someone random dies.

That's the point.

This is bad

Let's say we go through with this plan you've outted to the entire player list. Why do you think scum make the play that you've outlined that "confirms" two slots as town?

They don't. They kill someone else and force us to deal with this the next day phase.

Agreed, feel like this alternative approach just gives scum a good chance to switch up their own play to deceive us. Especially when said plan is being stated openly for scum to see.

[MalcolmTucker]

I disagree that she really pushed Johnny. Shaded yes but not really pushed. She never once voted for Johnny.

She also often brought up mala when she shaded Johnny, which makes me think she was trying to tie a partner to town.

As someone who's suspected Johnny for most of the game I think they're more likely to be town on the basis of Bella's posts. The reads aren't consistently incredibly strong and they're definitely hedgy at times but I think it can be argued in retrospect a lot of Bella's play was coming from hedgy scum. In a game of this size, I don't think it's tactically wise to have down your "main" scumread as a teammate, especially when it's a teammate who is susceptible to suspicion as Johnny has been for plenty of the game so far. I'll do some ISO checks to make sure but moving Johnny more into my town-pile for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke's case in the hood re Enchant was solid and I largely agreed with it. Reading back Enchant's posts towards the end of the turn and they seemed a little bit too confident in advance Bella was coming back scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

Let's do this

VOTE: Bella

Strongman targets Bell and town!Bella targets Bell is just wtf GG

E-2 maybe? Been a while since I checked. Caution if you vote.

Yeah DP I like that.

UNVOTE:

Zzz sleep soon for me

I've been thinking of a DP => Bella => DP sort of scenario for tonight. We can talk more about it tomorrow.

Taly's not going to get NK'd, I think.

DP tracks Bella target him and either Bella dies or someone random dies. Shows that Bella has the ability to target someone outside of a NK. If PD dies we flip Bella. Strongarm ruins this line of play I guess but so does flipping town!Bella so... we're betting on probabilities there.

I dunno if there's a smarter scenario to play out of... town!Bella... strongarm!scum... will think about it tomorrow or I'm sure someone else can think of it in the meantime.

why would we waste a track just to track them again

VOTE: Bellaphant
this just needs to go and ppl should stop speculating about roles with funny names in a non flip game.

Garbage. We know flavor points to roles and should be taken into account. We don't know what alignment roles are so we have to consider that separately. If we ignore that we're ignoring valid information.

Yup dp, I'm with you on this plan. Unless something else comes out that makes more strategic sense.

Yo we already decided Juliet (bella claim) could be doc.

Did Bella steal it from a scum partner? Sure maybe.

If PD dies tonight we flip bella, 100%.

If Bella is town doc PD doesn't die. Bella dies or someone random dies.

That's the point.

Dp 10344 is on point

We must wait.

Find other scum in meantime. Bella resolves tonight potentially with PD safe or bella as tomorrow's flip. PD safe is highest priority here and if scum decides to leave them both alone tonight, they're fucked anyway.

Wasn't too keen on Rad's progression re Bella on the vote yesterday. Very keen at first, perhaps with no hope of saving Bella if scum, but then potentially opportunistically jumped on an opportunity to save Bella after all once DP was onboard and they had some cover and weren't necessarily fighting a losing case. Would make sense if Enchant was scum too given you'd potentially have one teammate bussing while another makes the defence.

[MalcolmTucker]

You missing main point of my message

I understand your point but in my experience it’s greater > rand town who does this. Town!Sakura hard defended scum!Wisdom in Baton Pass - I think it was.

In the game where I was the game losing miselim, scum hardbussed their entire team and the d1 scum elim was they’re most powerful pr.

You still missing it.

I know I’m town and I hard tr all of Bella defenders. So you think everyone who voted Bella is town and wasn’t looking for towncred on her flip?

I'd be shocked if there wasn't some bussing going on but why are we automatically TR'ing people who defended Bella? I don't think it'd have been unreasonable for Rad to at least make an attempt at a defence.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

Bella can you explain your town read on me? We had a super difficult time town reading each other in our previous game. Is it a vibe thing here or is there something specific that stood out to you?

@Pooky update when you can, ty <3

Bella => Town

I think scum!Bella wants to make sure town!Rad continues to lose townie points here by continuing down this path:

Think I need to iso rad too. I thought their initial response to puppets was fine but then their tone shifted a bit in a way that felt new to me.

Not saying you shouldn't ISO me if you feel the need Bella, but this scenario is a layup for scum!Bella to just lean into how my tone shifted and it's feeling scummy to you now.

Happy to be town again with town!Bella! I do read you more as town this game than our last one though which makes me suspicious of you XD But yeah for sure leaning town on you pretty hard.

I think scum!Bella wants to make sure town!Rad continues to lose townie points here by continuing down this path:

Think I need to iso rad too. I thought their initial response to puppets was fine but then their tone shifted a bit in a way that felt new to me.

Not saying you shouldn't ISO me if you feel the need Bella, but this scenario is a layup for scum!Bella to just lean into how my tone shifted and it's feeling scummy to you now.

Happy to be town again with town!Bella! I do read you more as town this game than our last one though which makes me suspicious of you XD But yeah for sure leaning town on you pretty hard.

I probably should have included this at the beginning of my last post:

Cool, rads still town.

If it wasn't obvious, this comment is what drove my 3110 post.

P-edit your tone did shift but I think it's fine/a good thing. I think you did sometimes come across as a little condescending in the newbie, partly through circumstance !you had to be right ) but I still think your overall approach to the game is in line with the thought processes of town!rad.

I don't think you should town read me just because I town read you tho

I think you spotting my tone difference was good but NAI. I was going to mention that anyway as a good catch, but you coming in and straight reading me as town after this was huge townie points IMO because again, scum!Bella should lean on this concept of a tone change and knock me down further.

I'm the second most town read player. I MUST be taken down a notch. Luke as well, though he could just be ignored here and NK'd. So I'm being very observant of how that is going to play out, because it just has to play out that way. Not saying it's scum!Bella necessarily if you continued down that path and ended up with a scum!Rad read, but I am saying that scum!Bella SHOULD have gone down that path, so because you didn't, it's super townie to me.

...(that's a little condescending )

Also, people are really a lot more aware of their reads status than I am, generally? That's you, Luke and bbt that's bought it up.

Shit was I coming across as condescending? Sorry that wasn't my intent at all!

I'm very aware of the reads that came from pooky's collection and I think the heavy town reads absolutely need to be the focus of scum here. Any possible slip up of heavy town reads should be immediately pounced on by scum if town doesn't do it for them. Not saying it necessarily makes players who pounce scum, but it needs to happen one way or the other. So I'm definitely interested in focusing on people who may opportunistically jump at me for my DP read and the fact that you could but didn't screams townie to me.

Reading back and there's a fair bit of interaction between Rad/Bella early game but it's also pretty soft and ultimately not a lot is really said of note - Rad TR's Bella but is very explanatory about why they're doing so, while Bella hints at not completely trusting Rad but backs away from it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

Let's do this

VOTE: Bella

Strongman targets Bell and town!Bella targets Bell is just wtf GG

E-2 maybe? Been a while since I checked. Caution if you vote.

Yeah DP I like that.

UNVOTE:

Zzz sleep soon for me

I've been thinking of a DP => Bella => DP sort of scenario for tonight. We can talk more about it tomorrow.

Taly's not going to get NK'd, I think.

DP tracks Bella target him and either Bella dies or someone random dies. Shows that Bella has the ability to target someone outside of a NK. If PD dies we flip Bella. Strongarm ruins this line of play I guess but so does flipping town!Bella so... we're betting on probabilities there.

I dunno if there's a smarter scenario to play out of... town!Bella... strongarm!scum... will think about it tomorrow or I'm sure someone else can think of it in the meantime.

why would we waste a track just to track them again

VOTE: Bellaphant
this just needs to go and ppl should stop speculating about roles with funny names in a non flip game.

Garbage. We know flavor points to roles and should be taken into account. We don't know what alignment roles are so we have to consider that separately. If we ignore that we're ignoring valid information.

Yup dp, I'm with you on this plan. Unless something else comes out that makes more strategic sense.

Yo we already decided Juliet (bella claim) could be doc.

Did Bella steal it from a scum partner? Sure maybe.

If PD dies tonight we flip bella, 100%.

If Bella is town doc PD doesn't die. Bella dies or someone random dies.

That's the point.

Dp 10344 is on point

We must wait.

Find other scum in meantime. Bella resolves tonight potentially with PD safe or bella as tomorrow's flip. PD safe is highest priority here and if scum decides to leave them both alone tonight, they're fucked anyway.

Wasn't too keen on Rad's progression re Bella on the vote yesterday. Very keen at first, perhaps with no hope of saving Bella if scum, but then potentially opportunistically jumped on an opportunity to save Bella after all once DP was onboard and they had some cover and weren't necessarily fighting a losing case. Would make sense if Enchant was scum too given you'd potentially have one teammate bussing while another makes the defence.

I did think that the way Rad and DP were "I like this"ing and "+1"ing and "on point"ing each other approximately 100 times felt a little off. On one hand I could believe it being Rad trying to reinforce a pocket, but it is an odd move from someone who is fairly consensus townread to throw that away for a risky attempt at delaying a partner's death for one more Day.

I think it makes a bit more sense though when you consider Math's elimination the day before. If this was the first loss for scum there's probably no point in mounting a defence. But I think when they knew this was going to be their second elimination it'd make sense to at least try for the save - especially so when a much more active player starts to do so as well. And Rad could have easily felt like going for the save would make them look more townie because it was a potentially bold move when they knew Bella was going to come back as scum - indeed that seems to have been the effect for some players.

[MalcolmTucker]

Spoiler:

Let's do this

VOTE: Bella

Strongman targets Bell and town!Bella targets Bell is just wtf GG

E-2 maybe? Been a while since I checked. Caution if you vote.

Yeah DP I like that.

UNVOTE:

Zzz sleep soon for me

I've been thinking of a DP => Bella => DP sort of scenario for tonight. We can talk more about it tomorrow.

Taly's not going to get NK'd, I think.

DP tracks Bella target him and either Bella dies or someone random dies. Shows that Bella has the ability to target someone outside of a NK. If PD dies we flip Bella. Strongarm ruins this line of play I guess but so does flipping town!Bella so... we're betting on probabilities there.

I dunno if there's a smarter scenario to play out of... town!Bella... strongarm!scum... will think about it tomorrow or I'm sure someone else can think of it in the meantime.

why would we waste a track just to track them again

VOTE: Bellaphant
this just needs to go and ppl should stop speculating about roles with funny names in a non flip game.

Garbage. We know flavor points to roles and should be taken into account. We don't know what alignment roles are so we have to consider that separately. If we ignore that we're ignoring valid information.

Yup dp, I'm with you on this plan. Unless something else comes out that makes more strategic sense.

Yo we already decided Juliet (bella claim) could be doc.

Did Bella steal it from a scum partner? Sure maybe.

If PD dies tonight we flip bella, 100%.

If Bella is town doc PD doesn't die. Bella dies or someone random dies.

That's the point.

Dp 10344 is on point

We must wait.

Find other scum in meantime. Bella resolves tonight potentially with PD safe or bella as tomorrow's flip. PD safe is highest priority here and if scum decides to leave them both alone tonight, they're fucked anyway.

Wasn't too keen on Rad's progression re Bella on the vote yesterday. Very keen at first, perhaps with no hope of saving Bella if scum, but then potentially opportunistically jumped on an opportunity to save Bella after all once DP was onboard and they had some cover and weren't necessarily fighting a losing case. Would make sense if Enchant was scum too given you'd potentially have one teammate bussing while another makes the defence.

I did think that the way Rad and DP were "I like this"ing and "+1"ing and "on point"ing each other approximately 100 times felt a little off. On one hand I could believe it being Rad trying to reinforce a pocket, but it is an odd move from someone who is fairly consensus townread to throw that away for a risky attempt at delaying a partner's death for one more Day.

I don’t understand why you think it was “off”. I think it’s quite normal to agree with someone who’s mindmelding with you on something.

As outlined in the posts above it's more the sudden flip that concerns me. Rad was all-in to get Bella out until someone else indicated Bella shouldn't be flipped. Reeks of opportunism to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Another look through Rad's ISO and I don't feel like there's anything particularly ruling out a Rad/Enchant team either.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like, are you seriously arguing that people should think that you cannot be partnered with Math, because you made a post where you outlined the top 4 wagons (one of which happened to be Math).

Because, to be clear, your post gives big "one of which happen to be Math" energy.

If you want to argue that your post was the catalyst for some of the people to vote math, then sure. But that speaks more on those people. The people who looked at the 4, and when given those 4 options made a choice. Then it does about the person who made the list of 4 people.

Catching up but reading back on this discussion - if Rad genuinely believes they went in stronger on bussing Math as scum (presuming Rad is scum in this scenario) than the rest of the town does, then I think it's possible that could've played into them being more confident when they suddenly flipped to defending Bella on D3 once the opportunity presented itself.

[MalcolmTucker]

I feel like that last post I made is going to cause more back and forth with Rad...

Rad. I understand that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation why town!Rad would have made that post.

And I feel that explanation coming from you already.

But reasonableness does not matter.

There is a "reasonable" explanation for that post from town!rad, and a "reasonable" explanation for that post from scum!rad.

But it only matters if you are actually making an Alignment Indicative Point.

Luke this (and your other recent posts) is why I town read you and scum read Malcolm.

Cause your logic makes sense and you're weighing both angles equally.

Malcolm JUST focuses on scum!Rad.

Paranoid me thinks you're just dominating everyone as scum but I also try to recognize that's a silly way to look at it.

This is completely incorrect. I've flipped on you throughout the game to be honest - an initial townread which developed into a scumread, which went back to a townread but reverted to a scumread again following what we now know from D3 and the possibility of you being paired with Enchant. On D1 I (wrongly) suspected Roden as scum and up until fairly recently I thought Johnny was scum, but I think that's unlikely now. I feel like much of your case to try and refute your scumread is less based on evidence and more just trying to shade those who scumread you as untrustworthy. Your reactions to being scumread are innately defensive in a way that I don't think is chiming with the rest of your play.