Large Normal 240: Baileyposting [game over]

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello.

[MalcolmTucker]

Crescent giving me good town vibes.

[MalcolmTucker]

can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.

[MalcolmTucker]

can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.

so me being annoyed that there's literally 3 VCs posted in a row is scummy, yet him actually spamming VCs to look like he's doing something is not scummy? like, sorry not sorry, this is a 17p game, it has potential to reach hundres of posts in a few hours (idk the vibe of this game yet) but rather than Fredrick spamming VCs all D1 I'm asking him to knock it off now. like it literally makes it so much harder to actually read the game. so if you want to go at me for "scum is faking annoyance here" let's go. Tell me how it's not annoying to spam 3 VCs in a row, and it definitely looks like he intends to keep doing this. so TELL ME please. how is this not annoying

I was half-joking when I said that to be honest but your responses are townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Two points to make. To be direct: I didn't read much into Andante there, but Malcolm deciding to shade it is

really

weak for someone who posted just 3 times, and the reason he gave for said shade could easily apply to him.

Vivax now has placed as many votes as he did the entire first day in 2273, and it's kinda jarring. I want to hear what Vivax himself has to say about this.

It was something of a throwaway observation, I do think it's the type of thing scum could feign annoyance over to appear more townie but I'm typically not too committed to reads early in the game and like to feel players out. As outlined above I think Andante's response to my shade was very much townie if maybe a bit over the top.

[MalcolmTucker]

My early TRs are:

Andante

Vivax

Enchant

Crescent

Order is meaningless.

Rest is kinda ???,

geraintm

's post 88 kinda gave me a bad vibe, but I'm not giving out a scumread over one post only.

My hello post without even a vote gives you a bad vibe?
Holy mackerel this is going to be a long game

Early game tends to be primarily about vibes though and just coming up with initial reads based on very little to see how they float. I think your first post was fine personally but it's not as if Greeting is giving out a proper committed scumread for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Does anyone else agree with Vivax's interpretation? This is a strange hill for him to choose to die on. I think it's a little towny to do so, though. Town often have a lot of pride in their own view of things.

Vivax's early posts definitely feel very townie so far. Quite confrontational but not sure it's how mafia would approach early game necessarily.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fred doesn't sound robotic to me and I don't see why you read an intention into it.

fred just talks in a "matter of fact" tone?? meaning he's super aware of what he's saying, and if that's all I see from someone, that's like a major "hey might be mafia!"

It's not necessarily mafia though if it's how they always post. Then it's just NAI.

[MalcolmTucker]

That's if he flips town. Right now I don't think he will.

The argument is forcing the presupposition that scum must be shading him, when I'm the only one in that 4 pack without a previously established reason to have done so.

Sometimes it's just 4 town members shading a scum. I see no reason to automatically assume there is scum based on the specific people involved.

If four people are on a town wagon this early in the game then I think it's pretty fair to suggest there's probably going to be some scum on it, no? It's feasibly possible to be all town but any good mafia team surely wants to be putting some pressure on an early town wagon.

I'm not particularly feeling Fredrick at the moment. Pretty light content wise but then I'd argue it's been a pretty light game so far. Hardly as if he's a dominant figure in the thread with more posts than anyone else. Some players just take longer than others to feel their way into the game and I think the case appears a bit convenient right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: bugspray

this is more annoying than what Fred was doing earlier

Like honestly, can we just lim frred THEN start trying to play the game? I don't like this gimmick. it's hard to read in a sense, and it's just flat out annoying

the moderator has informed me i am not allowed to play chess

wow.. I'm so shocked, I never would have guessed spamming chess here wouldn't be allowed...

You however just randomly complain about content. Players go in expecting a fun read, a challenging game.

There's nothing fun about bugspray spamming these giant images, Fred spamming the 3 VCs in a row?
I love fun don't get me wrong, but this game... we have a handful of people doing NOTHING, and a handful just like "spamming to spam" but hey it's whatever

I was willing to count Andante's initial frustration against Fred as genuine townie annoyance but so far basically all of the slot's content is based on voting for players they aren't liking tone wise instead of hunting for genuine scumminess. Feels like a really convenient way to dodge actually talking about the game and pings me a bit. If it's such a big issue, then why continue bringing it up? Happy to vote here for now.

VOTE: Andante

[MalcolmTucker]

So if I vote people cause I find what they're doing highly annoying. that automatically makes me scum? I'm not SRing whoever. I'm saying Fred isn't doing ANYTHING game related and talking in this matter of fact tone, it's annoying as heck, yet I guess all yall are totally fine with fred??

By voting someone because you find them annoying, you base an entire case around your vote basically being based on frustration, which stops us on from moving onto fresh ideas/thoughts. I'm finding that more suspicious than the initial annoyance itself.

Like, if a reasonably high post count and little to show for it is a good reason to vote for Fred, I fail to see why the same doesn't apply to you.

Do you have any thoughts/views not related to players currently annoying you?

[MalcolmTucker]

I fully intend to come up with actual reads as the game goes on, but here all yall are like "DEATH TO ANDANTE!!! HOW DARE SHE BE ANNOYED" I literally told yall I was voting fred out of annoyance

Nobody is doing this, do you expect to be immune from pressure?

[MalcolmTucker]

I fully intend to come up with actual reads as the game goes on, but here all yall are like "DEATH TO ANDANTE!!! HOW DARE SHE BE ANNOYED" I literally told yall I was voting fred out of annoyance

Nobody is doing this, do you expect to be immune from pressure?

have I ever had a good reaction to pressure?

Do you expect to go through an entire game without any pressure being put on you at all? You're evading my question.

It's D1, this is an early read, more than happy to move elsewhere if someone else strikes me as more scummy down the line.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger tends not to do much on D1 as a general rule. Vote on Fred could be read as opportunistic and there's not much in their limited ISO so far but it's feasible from town Ger.

[MalcolmTucker]

if i had more to say on crescent i would say it. I just read her posts and was like "this person is someone i should look into later"

Why is azumaril wagon bad

Tonal town read on them.

If the only read you have on someone is tonal why would you think its a bad wagon.

To me this feels like tmi that I'm town.
Also dont like the MT vote.
VOTE: Fancypants

I read plenty of people based on tone alone. I find it a bit strange that you find it scummy, this clearly isn't your first game.

Oh there were quite literally 0 posts I hadn't read either before or on this page.

..Fancypants next.

Vote on Malcom is for #261 which is.. Not a Malcolm post that scumpinged me. Comes off as arrogant like the rest of that train did, not scummy. Why did this post draw your vote?

Has now called me, Enchant, Meg, and Fred town for... No apparent reason other than "vibes" or "tone" for any of us. Do you have any play-based reasons you can point to? It feels like you're taking a bunch of simple stances without backing any of them up.

Like my tonal read on Andante was null, but I thought the wagon was awful because I thought the reasons for it were awful. What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?

I do have reasons for all my town reads.
I like Enchant's read list as it's similar to mine, I also like how they didn't even bother to finish the list, feels too IDGAF too be scum'.

Meg started too too whimsical, and I liked a couple of the questions they asked, seemed like a effort to game solve.

I didn't call Fred town, I'm actually not sure of the slot I don't like the wagon for meta reasons I can't talk about because the game is still ongoing.

As for you, I think you're genuinely tying to solve game solve.

Malcome is scum in post 261 because of how non-committal it is, he's voting but leaving himself wiggle room, its also pointless as a pressure vote, if you tell someone you aren't that positive about the vote.
In other words he wants to be on the wagon but he wants to have plausible deniability for being on the wagon.

I'd say I'm more just making clear it's still early game and a lot of players haven't posted a lot yet in the way of content - I personally think you're making too much out of this, would you rather I lied and acted as if my first D1 vote was locked in and wasn't going to change? All early votes are non-committal and subject to change because unless you decide to tunnel someone without legit reason you're going to change your beliefs on who as scum as the game progresses.

My train of thought is pretty consistent - Andante has been attacking other players for a lack of in-game content and for spamming, but in the process ironically had an identical ISO which largely ignored in-game content. I found that hypocritical, potentially scummy, and worthy of a vote. If I think someone else is a better vote - which is perfectly possible - I will move my vote, because it's the first day and some players haven't said much yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger tends not to do much on D1 as a general rule. Vote on Fred could be read as opportunistic and there's not much in their limited ISO so far but it's feasible from town Ger.

this feels like TMI

VOTE: Malcolm

like, ok so what gerain usually doesn't do much? you used too many words to go "gerain probably town" like, you're trying to justify a TR there, but it's actually a really bad take, cause I have a great example of scum!gerain doing nothing day 1. but going "that's feasible from town Ger" like what?? Gerain should be no where near being called town right now. I'm not saying they have to be a SR, but like, there's nothing in this game so far to push gerain into TR territory

I'm not townreading or scumreading them. Simply pointing out Ger tends not to be too heavily invested in the game on D1. Last time we played together I scumread them heavily for being quite disengaged and was determined I'd caught mafia, I turned out to be wildly wrong. I'm largely null on Ger for now because, as I say, just hard to read D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ger tends not to do much on D1 as a general rule. Vote on Fred could be read as opportunistic and there's not much in their limited ISO so far but it's feasible from town Ger.

this feels like TMI

VOTE: Malcolm

like, ok so what gerain usually doesn't do much? you used too many words to go "gerain probably town" like, you're trying to justify a TR there, but it's actually a really bad take, cause I have a great example of scum!gerain doing nothing day 1. but going "that's feasible from town Ger" like what?? Gerain should be no where near being called town right now. I'm not saying they have to be a SR, but like, there's nothing in this game so far to push gerain into TR territory

agree with this.

no one should be scum or town read day 1

, and certainly not me

This was, ironically, precisely my point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been behind on this, will catch up in a couple of hours.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why's Meg scum? Posts seem alright so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

I could see Lowell as possible scum, lot of jumping around in terms of reads and nothing that feels too solid or concrete other than maybe Meg.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok #584/585 from Enchant reads like town who half-doesn't give a shit and voted Bugspray entirely for the funsies.

Enchant is notorious for hammering whoever it is.

[MalcolmTucker]

Happy to vote Meg here given the arguments being presented.

VOTE: Meg

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't think scum Gera pops in to make that unvote regardless of Meg's alignment so that turned out useful.

Agreed, good point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ultimate obvious bus.

I didn't even realise I was hammer lmao. Glad I just went for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker the premature hammer is probably last minute bus.

MT showed no signs of sussing Meg before that and the excuse is weak.

I dont see town MT going for that if theres a risk Meg is green.

I get it doesn't look great but if I was scum I reckon I'd have been more active in at least trying to formulate a reason to bus - I genuinely just quite liked the case on Meg and placed a vote there without realising I was hammering. A happy accident.

[MalcolmTucker]

So i am going back on unsure being a buss from meg. Looks like fancy was wrong town. I could still see it being scum but leaving it at the door. Calling unsure town for now

Bugspray was a counter. Seems like a designated misyeet. Claiming gunsmith out of nowhere. Who cares.

Fred is a weird one.

I still don't understand why fred continues to get traction and everyone sees slot as scum or gets in lists everywhere. I am not saying ohh fred town, i am going "I don't know why this slot gets so much attention".

I should dig into it to get a big brain opinion.


Anyways if i was yeeting someone at this moment it would be Prince

This is a bit of an odd post. I don't necessarily completely SR Fred but the case for them so far seems pretty clear. This reads like a weak attempt at defending Fred that can't necessarily find a proper reason to TR them so tries to shade the case entirely without explaining why we shouldn't SR Fred.

[MalcolmTucker]

By the way, if you put someone at L-1, declare it.

The person who hammers won't hammer without realising that way.

Before voting, check if the player you are voting is at L-1. If they are, declare intent before hammering.

If a hammer without intent happens again, I'll be looking into whoever hammers.

To be fair, was my bad, I should have checked. But all worked out in the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

So i am going back on unsure being a buss from meg. Looks like fancy was wrong town. I could still see it being scum but leaving it at the door. Calling unsure town for now

Bugspray was a counter. Seems like a designated misyeet. Claiming gunsmith out of nowhere. Who cares.

Fred is a weird one.

I still don't understand why fred continues to get traction and everyone sees slot as scum or gets in lists everywhere. I am not saying ohh fred town, i am going "I don't know why this slot gets so much attention".

I should dig into it to get a big brain opinion.


Anyways if i was yeeting someone at this moment it would be Prince

This is a bit of an odd post. I don't necessarily completely SR Fred but the case for them so far seems pretty clear.

This reads like a weak attempt at defending Fred that can't necessarily find a proper reason to TR them so tries to shade the case entirely without explaining why we shouldn't SR Fred.

Really? This accusation is scummy. And you should be able to see his point from how many peeps tried to murder Fred D1.

Do you disagree with Owen that Firebringer is cleared from Meg flip then?

Taken another look at Firebringer's slot and yes, almost certainly town. Hadn't paid much attention to them but reads on Meg were pretty solid and consistent from early on in the game - enough consistency for me that it's unlikely to be a bus or an attempt at distancing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nevermind I see it.

VOTE: meg

This is an ISO read of someone who wanted to have a fun game but is disappointed to have drawn scum.

Malcolm also a good vote. Chipping at the edges of ideas without ideas.

Wasn't too keen on Lowell D1 but also almost close to confirmed town for me from the info we have now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Actually it's worse.

Fred hasn't mentioned MT in a single content post

the entire game

He is once again leading a baseless wagon against the top train while avoiding talking about the top train in any capacity. It's a repeat of the exact behavior I scumread him for yesterday.

I'm very much not scum although appreciate I don't look particularly good here. Fred very much could be mafia though but wouldn't there be better places to push than Firebringer? As has been pointed out above, it's not a good place to push given they're almost certainly not going to get voted out following Meg's flip.

[MalcolmTucker]

In hindsight, now that I'm being less tunnely on Fred, I have to correct something I said earlier. There is one MT post that's good.

MT saying Lowell is town (and giving a reason for it) is a good look. I feel like Lowell is the kind of low-effort town that scum loves to have in their POE, and MT basically just tossed him right out of it. Side note I have no idea how Gera ever got the impression that I scumread Lowell after my exchange with Fire at the start of the day.

I'm retracting crescent from my town list. Something about this post gives me the willies. The way it looks like narration, maybe? Looks like possible pocketing of two different low-energy people at once? Between these people and the scumzers trying to lowkey frame me as mafia doctor eh I don't know.

Would scum Crescent not be best off pushing me if I'm town though and they want to pocket? Few votes on me and it's an easy place to go at the moment seemingly.

[MalcolmTucker]

In hindsight, now that I'm being less tunnely on Fred, I have to correct something I said earlier. There is one MT post that's good.

MT saying Lowell is town (and giving a reason for it) is a good look. I feel like Lowell is the kind of low-effort town that scum loves to have in their POE, and MT basically just tossed him right out of it. Side note I have no idea how Gera ever got the impression that I scumread Lowell after my exchange with Fire at the start of the day.

I'm retracting crescent from my town list. Something about this post gives me the willies. The way it looks like narration, maybe? Looks like possible pocketing of two different low-energy people at once? Between these people and the scumzers trying to lowkey frame me as mafia doctor eh I don't know.

Would scum Crescent not be best off pushing me if I'm town though and they want to pocket? Few votes on me and it's an easy place to go at the moment seemingly.

Correct. I didn't even bother to mention my motives for pocketing you two of all people would be virtually nonexistent as scum, because his argument was so flawed in every aspect that I didn't need to. I was basically just going to see if someone else did it for me~

Anyways, who do you scumread? You have still given us zero inclinations today.

For reasons stated by a fair few, I'm increasingly not too keen on Fred as town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Bugspray D1 wagon seems like a potentially decent place for one of the scum to sit - they hadn't done much and there was a bit of annoyance with the slot, easy for a teammate of Meg's to say they scumread in the hope the wagon goes away while one or two players bus perhaps?

[MalcolmTucker]

my opinions this game are that Meg is scum and I would like to yeet them

Then why not give any sort of reasoning why, to help convince others to wagon there? As well as making post 387 which will only make people think that you aren't to be taken seriously.

I don't like stating "reasoning" because it makes scum feel more self conscious if you push them without stating reasoning because they don't know what you caught them on and freeze up

So do you think Meg's reaction to your push was indicative of them being scum?

Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.

Hadn't really thought Meg was scummy previously, but this is actually fairly convincing reasoning. I'm okay with this, maybe Pooky is right after all.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Oof, not sure if it's been mentioned but I don't think Prince comes out of this exchange looking particularly great.

Initially very defensive of Meg, but quickly changes their tune once the case is made as the wagon builds momentum. Possibility they'd maybe have been most likely to bus here?

[MalcolmTucker]

I still strongly prefer eliminating

Unsure

today. Even though

Fredrick A Campbell

is almost certainly our choice for today, I really don't want to announce intent to hammer nor hammer him. I'm not going against my gut here.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

What's the reasoning for Unsure as scum?

[MalcolmTucker]

Fredrick potentially feels a bit easy but believe they could be scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

if yall are so opposed to a Fred wagon, we could go get UNO, but no one really saying/doing anything... like helloooooo do we need a lim to happen for yall to show up and do literally anything? Or can yall tell me why Fred is town?

Reminder: Fred posted 3 VCs in a row that weren't fully accurate, and made a "reads" thing for "A and B can't be partners" in a 17p game. on DAY 1... if that stuff isn't just busywork to look busy idk what is

Increasingly convinced this is probably worth going for. Initially I felt like it was a bit too easy, but seeing the current vote count, feels like it's surprisingly low given the minimal resistance. Almost as if scum won't vote there but are too wary to get mega defensive after D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Fred

[MalcolmTucker]

Above post from Geraint feels town - no reason for scum to moan if they're not under attention/not getting noticed or focused on at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Malcolm - do you have a read list?

Honestly, nothing near a full one. Been struggling to get into this game/be fully engaged with it, unsure why, just hasn't clicked yet. Happy to case any players/go through any thoughts you want to quiz me on though.

For what it's worth I think you are likely town - push on Meg came pretty early on in D1 and was consistent and persistent enough. Not a 100% clear necessarily but your play doesn't make much sense to me as scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Good, be paranoid about me if you're town. It's better for the game.

No, it's not good. But there is no point in me pushing this any further.

I've already said I could see Unsure pairing up pretty well with Enchant, who is the #1 person I want dead.

Why do you think Enchant is town?

I have townbinned

Enchant

for his early game behavior, which was consistent with his light-hearted attitude and ignored this slot ever since. Is there a reason why I should be focused on him now?

Enchant is typically hard to read or form a full opinion on, but I think their D2 votes were pretty lazy - Fred to Mala and then the expected hammer on Fred.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker

, who is your biggest suspect right now and why?

On gut alone probably Enchant at the moment. But it's a hard read to articulate as I alluded to above. There's probably been some sheeping going on D1 because I'm finding that I TR the vast majority of the player list. I'll maybe need to take a more detailed look at Unsure. Fancy's push on me D1 felt a bit weird and forced but I've not noticed too much either way to make me scumread or townread Unsure.

[MalcolmTucker]

The Fred and Azumaril wagons are bad, everyone should vote Malcom.

if i had more to say on crescent i would say it. I just read her posts and was like "this person is someone i should look into later"

Why is azumaril wagon bad

Tonal town read on them.

if i had more to say on crescent i would say it. I just read her posts and was like "this person is someone i should look into later"

Why is azumaril wagon bad

Tonal town read on them.

If the only read you have on someone is tonal why would you think its a bad wagon.

To me this feels like tmi that I'm town.
Also dont like the MT vote.
VOTE: Fancypants

I read plenty of people based on tone alone. I find it a bit strange that you find it scummy, this clearly isn't your first game.

Oh there were quite literally 0 posts I hadn't read either before or on this page.

..Fancypants next.

Vote on Malcom is for #261 which is.. Not a Malcolm post that scumpinged me. Comes off as arrogant like the rest of that train did, not scummy. Why did this post draw your vote?

Has now called me, Enchant, Meg, and Fred town for... No apparent reason other than "vibes" or "tone" for any of us. Do you have any play-based reasons you can point to? It feels like you're taking a bunch of simple stances without backing any of them up.

Like my tonal read on Andante was null, but I thought the wagon was awful because I thought the reasons for it were awful. What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?

I do have reasons for all my town reads.
I like Enchant's read list as it's similar to mine, I also like how they didn't even bother to finish the list, feels too IDGAF too be scum'.

Meg started too too whimsical, and I liked a couple of the questions they asked, seemed like a effort to game solve.

I didn't call Fred town, I'm actually not sure of the slot I don't like the wagon for meta reasons I can't talk about because the game is still ongoing.

As for you, I think you're genuinely tying to solve game solve.

Malcome is scum in post 261 because of how non-committal it is, he's voting but leaving himself wiggle room, its also pointless as a pressure vote, if you tell someone you aren't that positive about the vote.
In other words he wants to be on the wagon but he wants to have plausible deniability for being on the wagon.

What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?

There are reasons? I did genuinely didn't see anything that looked like a case. I may have missed it, did 10 pages of catch up today.

I don't not like the wagon because it's a bad wagon, I assume it's about pressure. I don't like the wagon because I'm town reading the slot. I hope that makes sense.

In retrospect these posts don't look great, especially if Enchant were to end up being scum. Again I'll need to look at Unsure though and see how their play has stacked up by comparison.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker

, who is your biggest suspect right now and why?

On gut alone probably Enchant at the moment. But it's a hard read to articulate as I alluded to above. There's probably been some sheeping going on D1 because I'm finding that I TR the vast majority of the player list. I'll maybe need to take a more detailed look at Unsure. Fancy's push on me D1 felt a bit weird and forced but I've not noticed too much either way to make me scumread or townread Unsure.

Enchant is your NUMBER ONE SR??? Right now?? You're kidding right??

Should Enchant be free of suspicion? I think there are a lot of players looking town. I think there is a decent chance Enchant could come back scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've said I think the D2 votes were particularly lazy. Other than that - I find myself TR'ing the vast majority of players here and when narrowed down Enchant's one of the few not emerging as town for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNO is likely to be scum for looking at their ISO I reckon.

[MalcolmTucker]

*unlikely

[MalcolmTucker]

Honestly, nothing near a full one. Been struggling to get into this game/be fully engaged with it, unsure why, just hasn't clicked yet. Happy to case any players/go through any thoughts you want to quiz me on though.

It would be helpful if you have any scumgames that demonstrate your engagement isn't alignment dependent, because my current reference is that from skimming through your ISO in 2275 you seemed more involved.

I was also hoping for an elaboration on your Lowell read.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374

This is my most recent scumgame. Won with my teammate onside, third most active poster out of nine. As I say I've struggled to properly sink my teeth into this particular game for one reason or another. I'll try and do some casing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Honestly, nothing near a full one. Been struggling to get into this game/be fully engaged with it, unsure why, just hasn't clicked yet. Happy to case any players/go through any thoughts you want to quiz me on though.

It would be helpful if you have any scumgames that demonstrate your engagement isn't alignment dependent, because my current reference is that from skimming through your ISO in 2275 you seemed more involved.

I was also hoping for an elaboration on your Lowell read.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89374

This is my most recent scumgame. Won with my teammate onside, third most active poster out of nine. As I say I've struggled to properly sink my teeth into this particular game for one reason or another. I'll try and do some casing.

To add to this, seen nothing to particularly change or modify my Lowell town read after D1 so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

FancyPants* - lurk idk
Vivax - troll town
MalcolmTucker - prob maf
Greeting - idk always failed at reading
Firebringer - hot null would't care to vote
Fredrick A Campbell - can afford to die
Dwlee99* - lurk
Crescent - eh idk
Lowell - prob town
bugspray - always failed at reading
PookyTheMagicalBear - always mafia
geraintm - prob maf
UNOwen - idk i started yawning at this guy, pretend that's there's something funny drawn at next 3 persons and i call it a day, too much effort for me
Prince of Paterson
Andante
MegAzumarill

Going back to Enchant's reads list, not sure you'd typically expect huge detail, but this is really hedgy in particular - one confirmed scum just left out completely too.

[MalcolmTucker]

MT at the end of D1, why did you feel as if Meg needed more pressure?

Slightly confused here - not seeing this in my ISO? I hammered without realising after all.

[MalcolmTucker]

game relevant post: i will literally vote anyone who isn't me

I kinda lied about voting anyone so i dont get kicked out of the game

But the truth is im in full preservation because mt wagon has faltered and im not feeling fred and i know that means i die because im the other wagon so yes i have some aversion upin self reflection i kinda feel that to engage means to get better reads and i dont have time yet

Still unsure (heh) on unsure but this sequence feels relatively townie. Why does everyone appear so town here.

[MalcolmTucker]

MT at the end of D1, why did you feel as if Meg needed more pressure?

Slightly confused here - not seeing this in my ISO? I hammered without realising after all.

Then why did you vote?

Gotcha.

You knew it was a hammer.

I voted because I didn't think Meg was at the point of being eliminated yet. Careless but fine in the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

Please bury MT to the ground so I can achieve my locktown status.

You shall be sorely disappointed.

[MalcolmTucker]

So you didn't want them eliminated yet?

I'm not sure what your aim is here? I was fine with the elimination. I voted there expecting Meg would be eliminated because the game was clearly headed in that direction. Had I known I had hammer, I'd have waited or signalled intention to hammer while giving everyone a chance to respond. I'm typically not a sudden-hammer type.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reread some of Firebringer's ISO, very townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

What do people think of Crescent? It's a slot I'd seen as town so far based on posting but wanted to have a greater look. There's a lot of shading people for joining the wagon without supposedly having a valid reason throughout D1 but also acknowledgement of Meg's drop in activity, almost feels a bit like Crescent could have been hedging there, aware they'd been too defensive. But also feels like there's just too many mentions of Meg/too many interactions early on for them to be scum partners together? Unless Crescent just wanted to be assertive in trying to save their partner.

[MalcolmTucker]

So if you think the game was headed in that direction, did you feel impatient?

Because it's not adding up.

You're presenting yourself as the type who won't rush a hammer until sufficient discussion was had.
You clearly assumed that the day would have ended in Meg's elimination.
That means you must know that there was a sufficient number in the wagon or that the pressure wasn't letting on.
Still you voted — why? Not consistent with the POV you're trying to present.

And now I ask you if it was a vote to pressure, that confuses you because the vote was to eliminate Meg and you knew it — therefore lying about not knowing it was a hammer.

You're overthinking this. I voted for Meg because I thought they were the best vote after D1 had been going on for a while. I carelessly didn't check how many votes they had and it turned out to be hammer. Presuming the day would end in Meg's elimination is not the same as knowing it will. Meg could have eg made a last minute claim to save themselves or someone else could have made a major slip-up. You can pursue this line of thinking if you wish (I understand the reasoning for it) but it's incorrect.

[MalcolmTucker]

MT at the end of D1, why did you feel as if Meg needed more pressure?

Slightly confused here - not seeing this in my ISO? I hammered without realising after all.

you are saying you hammered without realising....doesnt actually make that true

There are three possibilities.

1. I hammered without realising.
2. I hammered deliberately as town to eliminate Meg, and am lying now.
3. I hammered Meg to bus as scum and to end the turn early.

You can believe whichever you wish - I am saying it was the first one.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unsure 1419 i don't like.

Why?

I'd like to hear some elaboration on MT here, given I also soft-townread him.

As I said, I don't think town!MT comes in 8 days before deadline with a careless vote/hammer on a slot he townread all day just because a case convinced him — even though the slot ended up being scum.
Their angle on Fred is pure piggyback instead of anything that resembles a spark of originality — but on top of it all, there's nothing about MT's play that makes me think they're curious enough or solving the game.

The points against them being scum is "sloppiness" where people don't believe scum would play the way he did (in a way that endangers their slot/throws them under the bus as i understand it) but what was their alternative here? Anti-spew is a thing, especially if your slot is in danger of real elimination. I even think lack of self-preservation is scummy.

this was it, and i am reading it back now and i am trying to remember why i didnt like it.

it is a weird mixture of regurgitating other people's thoughts on Malcolm and half formed thoughts of their own and throwing it all together to get a read and it just didnt feel right. like the bit about not thinking theyd be town but wait they could be town and i dunno....

thanks for asking me a question though

what the fuck are you talking about

Ger is claiming your read wasn't particularly or original and was just copying from others. I'm not sure I agree - I think you're on the wrong track but you've articulated your case in a way that's reasonable and not particularly opportunistic.

[MalcolmTucker]

FancyPants* - lurk idk
Vivax - troll town
MalcolmTucker - prob maf
Greeting - idk always failed at reading
Firebringer - hot null would't care to vote
Fredrick A Campbell - can afford to die
Dwlee99* - lurk
Crescent - eh idk
Lowell - prob town
bugspray - always failed at reading
PookyTheMagicalBear - always mafia
geraintm - prob maf
UNOwen - idk i started yawning at this guy, pretend that's there's something funny drawn at next 3 persons and i call it a day, too much effort for me
Prince of Paterson
Andante
MegAzumarill

Going back to Enchant's reads list, not sure you'd typically expect huge detail, but this is really hedgy in particular - one confirmed scum just left out completely too.

You're going to have to do better than a post almost the entire game dismissed as NAI within 100 posts of it being made to justify saying Enchant is your #1 scum read. This is a really weak point to be latching onto.

I've said quite openly my justification here is I'm really, really struggling for scumreads and by process of elimination Enchant is starting to look like possible scum to me. Do you not agree the reads list is pretty meh?

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been really busy, will catch up today. I really don't think Firebringer is scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay here is my general vibe/feelings that might not be useful at all.
enchant has been like begging to get yeeted.

Basically spitting in all our faces as we try to apply any pressure. I don't like the attitude but this is so brazen for scum to do that im not on board with it.

Which maybe enchant has picked up and been utilizing. I also get feeling scum are reluctant to vote or push enchant because low hanging fruit and don't want to be the first to go there. So if voted its the later votes where they feel comfortable that they wont be called out on it.

Unown. Is one i haven't had a lot of opinions on but i get the sense of votes placed and attitude around the slot that scum are angling/want this as mislim. I am not certain who because like andante is a top townread for me. I should be able to point out specific people who i think are trying to manufacture a push there but it just felt off from the few votes and mentions of unown from others. Maybe im seeing nothing I just don't know and i haven't given this slot much individual attention all game.

Lots of my townish reads have been getting firmer in there position which is the only good thing about this game day.
gera , vivax, greeting, crescent
lowell has gotten weaker due to like not doing anything but complain. Needs to do shit.


So my yeet pool right now is sitting with:
Unsure, Malakittens, Prince

I don't feel like that would be particularly out of character for Enchant. Frankly I'd find it a lot more suspicious if they started mounting a detailed, evidence-based response for why they are town.

[MalcolmTucker]

dead game? nahhh this is easy. prince just claimed maf!

Maybe I'm missing a joke here but I'm failing to understand how someone has seemingly scumclaimed for what appears to be missing a typo?

[MalcolmTucker]

overall, of the three i would put their voting history as

Worst: Vivax
2nd: Enchant
3rd: Unsure

Vivax slotted onto the Meg wagon at a really ugly point, their Day 2 just looks like they were hard trying to not be on the Fred wagon and switched over to the Mala one before being nowhere

Enchant - i just cannot understand the logic behind any of their votes, they seem almost plucked from thin air

Unsure - similar to Enchant, just less of them.

Overall, i would really want Vivax to go today. their history is poor, and they seem desperate to get enchant gone today.
i think the two slots are on opposite sides, i don't think they can be together

VOTE: Vivax

Vivax doesn't seem desperate for anything except moving the game along.
Also as u would say, naughty points to u for voting Vivax.

I'm not sure Vivax is a push scum would particularly be making at the moment. I don't SR the slot myself but I feel like Ger's genuinely trying to solve even if I disagree with the eventual conclusion.

[MalcolmTucker]

dead game? nahhh this is easy. prince just claimed maf!

Maybe I'm missing a joke here but I'm failing to understand how someone has seemingly scumclaimed for what appears to be missing a typo?

right... unless you have a better idea, flip prince here. just trust me on it

I have seen a lot, and that was an actual scum claim from prince, I've literally seen it before

Maybe I'm just missing something but I'm still not getting how it's a scumclaim.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd still be content to eliminate Enchant.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Enchant

Might as well put a vote down given no threat of hammer currently.

[MalcolmTucker]

Given I'm town, more confident in the above as it'd seem like scum maybe trying to influence a move away from Enchant onto a late counterwagon.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unsure if it's too early for me to claim here but given wagon is building momentum and I won't be around overnight, I'm town loyal vigilante. Do with that what you will.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unsure if it's too early for me to claim here but given wagon is building momentum and I won't be around overnight, I'm town loyal vigilante. Do with that what you will.

How did you make use of your role?

My role only allows me to successfully hit someone if they are town, so I have not used it yet because I'd not been confident enough of scum in D1 or D2 and felt the benefits of vigging someone were outweighed by the negatives of losing a townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright i looked Day 2, Malcolm was mostly abstent and just naked voted Fred in the end. But i never noticed "I Townread Enchant" even before from him. At best i was Null.
On this day he opened with "Enchant is my first suspect". Considering it's Gamma (who was locktown for everyone i believe) died, then i think same conclusion he supposed to had at moment of night...


So.
Malcolm, why you didn't shot me? DID YOU TOWNREAD ME? And if so, what SUDDENLY changed after Gamma death?

Because I'd not been confident enough to eliminate someone yet. I've made that pretty clear.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wasn't just going to casually eliminate a townie unless I was close to certain they were scum when there was no consensus on who said player should be.

[MalcolmTucker]

we want to lim one of the easiest testable roles in the game?

This is exactly it. I can literally prove overnight I am town. If I fail to hit someone it means they are scum. If you don't trust me, you eliminate me the following day, find out I am indeed the vig, and then eliminate scum the following day. It's easy for garnering info.

[MalcolmTucker]

I understand that mechanically, we keep him alive and let scum kill him we can see what happens overnight yadda yadda but i really dont want to do that when it's glaringly obvious that Malcolm is scum here.

Except it can't be glaringly obvious though because I am not scum. If I was going to falsely claim scum why would I pick a role that's disprovable pretty quickly? At best I buy myself one day in this hypothetical scenario. I'm rubbish at claiming roles anyway, if I was going to false claim I wouldn't make up a vig role with a specification where I can only successfully eliminate town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Actually I'd specifically claim a vig with a special feature, but refuse to expose what that feature was, only to reveal it if someone I shot didn't die.

Also, he still didn't even bother to vote Enchant or anything, yet he made 3 separate posts for his claim. This suggests he's more focused on making his claim stick than he is in actually hunting scum.

I've made it quite explicitly clear multiple times this game that I've been struggling for reads and have been TR'ing more players than is really viable, I've just really struggled to get a sense of this game and where things are at. I apologise for that but I'm not going to pretend I have more reads than I do just to be townread because that'd be dishonest. I'd argue as scum I'd be much more likely to be careful and sensible about my positioning around other players.

Anyway, eliminate me if you prefer, I'll come back town and you'll have miseliminated a townie when their role is provable.

[MalcolmTucker]

So shoting me is bad, pushing me for death at day is good?

OPPOSITE.

We have to eliminate someone during a town phase typically. When we pick to eliminate someone, if they are town they have the chance to reveal if they have a role and that stops us from a mislim. With vig they don't get the chance to do that. I'm often hesistant/not particularly confident in my reads. I'm not going to vig someone with a potentially crucial role overnight, that's stupid.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

I would be willing to have a go at someone we may believe to be scum with town consensus. Then you'd know in advance who I was going to hit.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant?

Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

I have voted Enchant now.

Your unwillingness to even entertain the claim is unhelpful - you are too deep-rooted here in assuming I am playing a logical and calculated game when I admit I have been a bit all over the place and uncertain with reads that game, something I apologise for since it's not been helpful for town. I defended Prince a while back because I didn't think they were particularly scummy. I vote sparingly and quite frankly can't remember why I didn't vote Enchant at the time - I could have been busy the next day and may have not wanted to place down a vote before being certain in case it was hammered. I may just simply not have bothered at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

I suppose it's possible scum could be in there but could also be vanity wagons - Lowell hasn't been too active recently so may just still be sitting on Prince. I suspect not all scum will be on me because when I come back town they won't want to look like they pushed it too hard. If I get yeeted out, watch out for any players defending me quite strongly for town-cred. Likewise, I'd keep an eye on players who have largely TR'd me but who are willing to eliminate me on the basis of being helpful to town consensus.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

Lowell hasn't been around in ages, and Mala's only comment was to sheep Fire in defending MT when he was still -2. Enchant them got off.. So basically, scum was likely never in position to hammer.

The funny thing about Prince's wagon now is I said there's scum there, specifically pointed to where I think scum might be, and now the only two players left on him are players from that shortlist.

I believe at least two of MT, Enchant, and Mala are scum though. There has barely been anything resembling scumhunting from any of the three,

but they sure do defend each other.

I think if you kill those 3. Then you kill Lowell if it's not all 3 of them. Good chance game gets solved in there.

Yes, me and Enchant regularly defending each other here.

[MalcolmTucker]

My scumhunting has been poor this game but I've repeatedly drawn attention to that - as scum I imagine I'd be a lot more self-aware in such a situation and a lot more determined to feign reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

my opinions this game are that Meg is scum and I would like to yeet them

Then why not give any sort of reasoning why, to help convince others to wagon there? As well as making post 387 which will only make people think that you aren't to be taken seriously.

I don't like stating "reasoning" because it makes scum feel more self conscious if you push them without stating reasoning because they don't know what you caught them on and freeze up

So do you think Meg's reaction to your push was indicative of them being scum?

Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.

Hadn't really thought Meg was scummy previously, but this is actually fairly convincing reasoning. I'm okay with this, maybe Pooky is right after all.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Oof, not sure if it's been mentioned but I don't think Prince comes out of this exchange looking particularly great.

Initially very defensive of Meg, but quickly changes their tune once the case is made as the wagon builds momentum. Possibility they'd maybe have been most likely to bus here?

I suppose though if town feels my role isn't going to be particularly useful/may end up being more anti-town then I may make a good compromise elimination, I think the positioning around it has been interesting so it'd give you plenty of reliable info next turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Didn't mean to quote that post above - but was just me highlighting where I'd been at re POP earlier in the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

My read on POP did soften but can't really recall why, not sure I posted that at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant?

Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

I have voted Enchant now.

Your unwillingness to even entertain the claim is unhelpful - you are too deep-rooted here in assuming I am playing a logical and calculated game when I admit I have been a bit all over the place and uncertain with reads that game, something I apologise for since it's not been helpful for town. I defended Prince a while back because I didn't think they were particularly scummy. I vote sparingly and quite frankly can't remember why I didn't vote Enchant at the time - I could have been busy the next day and may have not wanted to place down a vote before being certain in case it was hammered. I may just simply not have bothered at the time.

I've made it pretty clear that just the concept of leaving your claim alive terrifies me, because I think we end up in WIFOM hell either way and I'd rather just idle out than deal with that.

And I don't care that you voted Enchant

now

. Prince was consistently ahead of Enchant in votes, and you did not even

acknowledge

that Enchant had a train. You weren't "too busy" to acknowledge Prince was getting a train, though.

I actually had a reason to be wary of the Enchant train at the time, a stance I've already elaborated on. It feels like there's a reason that's just missing from your explanation.

Cool, taking a step back I do actually get this. The role - as I've acknowledged - is a very double-edged one. So while it's annoying to be eliminated when I've claimed a town role and I'm not lying, I understand the reluctance to believe me - best for town to get it over with and then assess who was positioning themselves opportunistically on D4. Should be a good way to find scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

I would be willing to have a go at someone we may believe to be scum with town consensus. Then you'd know in advance who I was going to hit.

Good lord no. The problem with your claim to begin with is that scum can easily just save your target if you're town.

You're claiming a role that is openly detrimental to town once claimed.

Sure, I get this. Best to eliminate me. On D4, as I say, best looking at players who are positioning themselves around my wagon opportunistically.

Greeting constantly TR'ing me but then being willing to eliminate me pinged me a bit.

I think you're probably town in the end but I do have a tendency to read more analytical players in a more biased ways because it's the type of posting I like, I do fear you're trying to approach my elimination in a deliberately logical way that allows you to eliminate town without looking scummy. But then you've suspected Enchant anyway - no reason you couldn't have just let that go through.

I think Unsure is probably just tunnelled town.

[MalcolmTucker]

And your claim isn't "double edged" at all. It's meant to fire like a madman and pick off the most suspected town in the game, or to find a scum and kamikaze it during the day. It's a very strong role.

If I have that role, Fred dies night 1, and the entire game looks drastically different as a result.

Your claim is only double edged once claimed.

But... It would fit a theme. Basically everyone I see with town power on MS horribly botches their role on every conceivable level. One-shot scanners wasting it on guys so obviously scum they got vigged anyway. Inactive vigs playing hero and shooting players no one in the game suspected.. And etc.

Yes, but then you risk hitting other powerful town players. I fail to see why that's beneficial.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd rather play cautiously than, say, hit a doctor or cop or something important.

[MalcolmTucker]

we're essentially playing mountainous cause our PRs aren't actually using their role. like who cares if you shoot a town?? YOU SHOOT SCUMREADS.

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Prince

whatever, I'm ending day on this. I genuinely hate this game.

I'll repeat it 1 more time.

@Malcom you BETTER shoot tonight

I will. If preferred I am happy to go on a consensus town-shot if that works and helps at all to be cooperative.

[MalcolmTucker]

idk, I'm not a fan of UNO just continuing to push malcolm right now, like, I'm literally outed, if you know mafia roles you know what I am, and so like, before I die, can I at least go on malcolm tonight? maf can't kill me right now, like, I guarantee this isn't going to be the case all game, this is literally all I ask for... to not lim malcolm for 1 night here...

Idk what your role is, but I believe you think you can confirm Malcolm. I don't believe you're likely to be able to. And since his claim is so unbelievable I don't think it's useful to risk going into a potential day 4 where Malcolm claims he shot someone who survived and we're no closer to getting any certainty.

If I shoot someone and they survive it means they are scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

That feels like a fair point, though Gibus kinda did similar as Doctor Checker in 2273. He claimed his role without actually clarifying it for like 9 minutes, and basically let Alex do it for him. It's not as pronounced as this looks, though.

Malcolm claims very passively and only when questions gives answers he should've given with the claim in the first place.

You're overthinking this. I was looking like the most likely elimination, I know I have a town role, I revealed said town role. This happens regularly in mafia games, I feel like you're looking for something that isn't there in this case.

[MalcolmTucker]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

I will. If preferred I am happy to go on a consensus town-shot if that works and helps at all to be cooperative.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

You understand the difference between vigging someone with the consensus of town and with more info, compared to going on a whim on N1 with little to go on except from the D1 elimination?

[MalcolmTucker]

No, it does not. It could mean you were roleblocked, or it could scum saved them. Your claim has no scum-confirming power.

I've really gotta start prepping for work now, but this false narrative that MT can actually confirm someone scum needs to stop. This is the stuff of nightmares.

VOTE: Prince

whatever, I'm ending day on this. I genuinely hate this game.

I'll repeat it 1 more time.

@Malcom you BETTER shoot tonight

I will. If preferred I am happy to go on a consensus town-shot if that works and helps at all to be cooperative.

And here we go again, DESPITE this post.

Speaking of him shooting, it really bothers me that he tried to have his claim directed at someone specific tonight though. It's a 100% chance of meaningful result, and it kinda just completely ignored the whole "scum could save his target" issue. You think someone who's had the role he's claiming for over a month would actually understand it on such a basic level. He doesn't seem to really get how the role he's claiming functions.

I've already pointed out how this is a horrible idea that in no way helps town, and he proposes it again?

I'm going to be so disgusted if MT is town. His play is inexcusable from any town perspective.

I maintain my position from before - I understand the logic behind eliminating me and if that's what town want to do, then do it.

But if town don't want to eliminate me (and there's clearly indecisiveness here) I am happy to use my role in a way that can gain knowledge - if my vig doesn't work then I know I have caught scum. If town then doesn't believe me, then fine, but you'll know on D5 that I was correct.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem is this is now the second time he's asked town specifically who to shoot which reads as "make sure I have an excuse that no one dies" as scum, and being offensively clueless at best as town. He still hasn't registered at all that he's nonconfirming if town because scum has doctors.

Yes I agree. But also, he's spent two days not using his supposed role despite clearly being aware of its potential utility because he was afraid of hitting a town PR, but now that it's useless and the only way he can be confirmed

is

by hitting town,

he's very eager

to be given a chance to use it and seemingly not that bothered about the risk of hitting a PR.

I'm not necessarily "very eager" - what I'm saying is that if you're reluctant to eliminate me and want me to use my role, I will use it for the good of the town. Using my role on D3 is also surely wiser than on N1 when we have little to go on info wise.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: Enchant

I don't feel like leaving my vote hanging while I'm at work and can't guarantee I'll be in good shape to contribute after it.

Maybe it's just how you approach the game but I don't get why you aren't voting for me when you are insistent that eliminating me is the best course of action here? It seems pretty clear-cut and yet you seem reluctant to commit, to the point of voting for someone else entirely.

[MalcolmTucker]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

I will. If preferred I am happy to go on a consensus town-shot if that works and helps at all to be cooperative.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

The problem is this is now the second time he's asked town specifically who to shoot which reads as "make sure I have an excuse that no one dies" as scum, and being offensively clueless at best as town.

He still hasn't registered at all that he's nonconfirming if town because scum has doctors.

Also - yeah, I did forget this so I get it undermines a case for trying to go for a consensus vig. But still...do you not think scum would at least be aware of this if trying to fake-claim? I'm pretty rubbish with game mechanics and forgetful when it comes to roles/how they operate but I'd at least be more careful to iron this out if I were scum surely, no? I don't know but I feel like you're conflating bad townplay with scumminess here a bit. You should surely be asking - is this how scum would play? Clearly, given the situation, there is little benefit for me if I'm botching a fakeclaim and forgetting pretty key details.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to catch up yet. I will be able to do so in about 2 hours. I see there's been a lot of activity but I'd like to read the full context first. From the bits and pieces that I have read, though, I think that despite there being clear issues with Malcolm's play and how it connects to his claimed role, a part of me has trouble believing that scum would manage to do both of these:

a) recognize that this specific fakeclaim with this specific modifier makes sense with the setup (mafia doctor and gunsmith(s)) when it's a rather unusual role
b) not understand the implications of what the role would mean and how it could be used

This thought might be outdated, but it is my immediate reaction. More later.

This is a sensible post.

[MalcolmTucker]

You understand the difference between vigging someone with the consensus of town and with more info, compared to going on a whim on N1 with little to go on except from the D1 elimination?

"If preferred" <- meaning you were open to shooting without consensus, leaving it up to town to instruct you otherwise.

Well yes, if the town want me to shoot overnight without revealing my target, I am open to doing that. This is not a contradictory or difficult to understand stance.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hiw did you forget, people have been telling you all day?

I feel like it's maybe been mentioned a couple of times at best? And I didn't make the immediate connection between doctor>scum doctor protects whoever I target.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry, I haven't had a chance to catch up yet. I will be able to do so in about 2 hours. I see there's been a lot of activity but I'd like to read the full context first. From the bits and pieces that I have read, though, I think that despite there being clear issues with Malcolm's play and how it connects to his claimed role, a part of me has trouble believing that scum would manage to do both of these:

a) recognize that this specific fakeclaim with this specific modifier makes sense with the setup (mafia doctor and gunsmith(s)) when it's a rather unusual role
b) not understand the implications of what the role would mean and how it could be used

This thought might be outdated, but it is my immediate reaction. More later.

I'll also add that I think this post is probably coming from town. Much as I doubt momentum will shift now Prince has been floated as a possible counterwagon at times and it's probably in the best interests of scum to get me out the game. Scum may want to position themselves against the wagon to look more prescient when I come back town but I'm not sure Prince is the member of a scum team to do that here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Nevermind I see it.

VOTE: meg

This is an ISO read of someone who wanted to have a fun game but is disappointed to have drawn scum.

Malcolm also a good vote. Chipping at the edges of ideas without ideas.

VOTE: Meg. Here's a good wagon.

Fancy and prince are also scum.

This is pretty attacking from Lowell early on if scum. They were consistently going after Meg right from the start. First one is five posts in.

[MalcolmTucker]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

Well yes, if the town want me to shoot overnight without revealing my target, I am open to doing that. This is not a contradictory or difficult to understand stance.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

You don't see the difference between a scumread on N1 and N3? We have much more info now than before.

[MalcolmTucker]

Wtf.

Serious, no.

I have been stating I been townreading enchant. Again not really seeing what makes that scummy

It is what it is.

For what’s it’s worth Mt is scummy as hell.

VOTE: mt

Weren't you agreeing early on that I shouldn't be eliminated because of my role?

[MalcolmTucker]

And as for you,

@Malcolm

.

You are to use your role every Night for as long as you're alive in the game from now on and report whom you shot. Refusing to use your role is letting it go to waste. It's not a big deal if you kill off a suspicious townie. If you try to shoot a suspicious player and nothing happens, you must report this immediately, because there's a very good chance this means it's a scum.

If I had your role, I would use it on:

Malakittens

,

Enchant

(if he does not get eliminated today),

Unsure

,

UNOwen

and maybe

Lowell

. Order is from most preferable to least.

If you have no idea whom to shoot, because you have too many townreads, feel free to use mine or from any other player you townread the strongest. I would say that shooting someone who is not in

Firebringer

's town club is very strongly preferable.

If you refuse to work with us, then I will automatically assume that you're mafia and will push for your elimination. And there may come a time in this game when we can no longer afford to miseliminate a townie. If you're the townie who gets hunted for lack of cooperation in ELo, you will be widely blamed for our loss and rightfully so.

I hope I made myself clear.

This is fair and reasonable.

[MalcolmTucker]

that was a lot to catch up on.
1st thought: If Mala turns up green then the push to them away from Malcolm is sus as fuck. there were many people who could have pushed them off the edge but didn't.

Mala, i've not looked at all because they weren't in my pool of interest. quick look and what i see mostly is a ton of defending Enchant but there is pretty much no content at all from them. i am not going to vote for them, because i don't think they are anywhere near as bad as others, but they need to post something quick otherwise they look doomed for today, just from the feel of the town.

I still feel like Enchant could be scum because as you say there's a reluctance to actually push that through when it potentially looked like the most viable wagon at one point. I've yet to see a good towncase for the slot.