I don't know exactly why is he a
Large Normal 240: Baileyposting [game over]
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- Crescent
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Crescent She/HerMafia Scum
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We don't have any actual confirmation a gunsmith exists. We only have confirmation at least one role that counters it does.In post 14, MegAzumarill wrote:
What strikes me as odd is it being public rather than just known to the gunsmith themself.In post 11, Enchant wrote:When Normal disallowed Godfather, so you just replace Cop with Gunsmith.
Also, Owen's first post is an exact replica of his first post in 2273, where he was scum, and it was Vivax's first game. Vivax being triggered by it gives me town vibes.- Crescent
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I think it's far more likely it was a new player being triggered by something, and then going back to figure out exactly what triggered them. The fact that he put the work in after the vote clearly suggests it is not a joke. I also don't see this as something he pounces on as scum, because it becomes a self-defeating argument the moment it's pointed out he does it as town. This isn't the kind of stand newbie scum make.In post 20, MegAzumarill wrote:
The only roles that would interact with it are GS, vigi, role jnvestigators (rolecop and follower), and sk afaik.In post 16, Crescent wrote:
We don't have any actual confirmation a gunsmith exists. We only have confirmation at least one role that counters it does.In post 14, MegAzumarill wrote:
What strikes me as odd is it being public rather than just known to the gunsmith themself.In post 11, Enchant wrote:When Normal disallowed Godfather, so you just replace Cop with Gunsmith.
Also, Owen's first post is an exact replica of his first post in 2273, where he was scum, and it was Vivax's first game. Vivax being triggered by it gives me town vibes.
The fact it is public instead of just being informed makes me think 2 or more exist.
Do you think Vivax has a non-joking read based off of that?
I see it as a genuine town reaction from someone in their second game.- Crescent
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Enchant was pretty obviously mocking the thing going on between Vivax and Owen. It's clear enough even I figured out the intentIn post 32, Greeting wrote:
I'm not seeing it.In post 31, Prince of Paterson wrote:
Reading more carefully, you should be able to figure out that was a witty entrance post.In post 30, Greeting wrote:Greetings!
No witty entrance post?In post 18, Enchant wrote:Hello Everyone.Enchantconfscum.
VOTE: Enchant
VOTE: Greeting- Crescent
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In post 54, MalcolmTucker wrote:
This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.In post 52, Andante wrote:can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell
Feign annoyance implies it wasn't starting to get annoying. Three giant empty walls of text are pretty annoying.In post 54, MalcolmTucker wrote:
This feels like something scum could easily feign annoyance over for the sake of an early vote to look busy.In post 52, Andante wrote:can we not post a VC for every single vote please... if you do it, please just throw it in a spoiler, but spamming "unnoficial" VCs for every single vote is not appreciated... you literally posted 3 on 1 page... and no one changed votes in the span of you posting them
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell
Like why even include the 0s? The posts could be 1/3 the length they are and still provide the same result.
Feels like a "shut up" vote from Andante and it's NAI to me. It feels like something scum could easily feign a reaction to look busy.- Crescent
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Andante seems annoyed, not scummy.In post 62, Vivax wrote:If I never respond you remain stuck in limbo?
Andante a tad too emotional about the VC, but meh.- Crescent
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Actually I'd go so far as to say offended by how weak that shade was.In post 58, Vivax wrote:My vote should have been on bugspray btw.- Crescent
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It never looked real, but I still wanted to ask just in case. It's the way I'm wired.
Apparently all I actually had to do was go to the wiki though. I've been under the impression that large normals were looser than minis with role bans, but the ban lists seem mostly the same outside of the possibility of SK or two scumteams.
Anyways Imma curl up with my kitty and get to bed.- Crescent
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Two points to make. To be direct: I didn't read much into Andante there, but Malcolm deciding to shade it isreallyweak for someone who posted just 3 times, and the reason he gave for said shade could easily apply to him.
Vivax now has placed as many votes as he did the entire first day in 2273, and it's kinda jarring. I want to hear what Vivax himself has to say about this.- Crescent
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Owen in that past game spent basically all day 1 on Corwin, but he does feel a little more proactive here - It felt before like he kinda let other people try to make the actual arguments instead of making them himself. I don't read a lot into it in either direction yet.In post 138, Vivax wrote:At some point someone might read Owens posts with the intent to give them a read or point out their uselesness, anyhow. Maybe in two days. Or he’ll get vigged N1 again and flip red. One could hope.
Lord I can't seem to stay awake today. It's like that perfect mix of heat and humidity that keeps making me pass out.- Crescent
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I have no idea where this logic is even going. I don't see how her getting mad somehow points to them being potentially scum together.In post 140, Vivax wrote:
It's an information avenue for a future point to look back to in case you flip mafia. Not relevant right now except as a diary for my thoughts, need folks who signed up to try and find mafia.In post 139, Andante wrote:
ok, why are you talking as if I'm flipped scum? these few posts just read weird to me? it's just like, I don't even get it "we need andante flip first" "maf!anante" like what??In post 104, Vivax wrote:
I don't believe you and will call you town for bad reasons.In post 99, Firebringer wrote:I am scum don’t u dare call me town u dirty….w/e u are
If MalcolmTucker is mafia and pinged m!Andante then #69 explains the additional annoyance in the tone from her part.
Let's say it's a possible timeline.- Crescent
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This is kind of a gross misinterpretation of 2273. The scumreads on Owen were more about doing absolutely nothing, and there were 3 people up for vote on day. He was behind both Corwin and George in popularity, and theIn post 145, Vivax wrote:
No, Owen didn’t post an opinion on geraintms entrance. Feel free to prove me wrong.In post 143, Prince of Paterson wrote:
Are you interpreting their post as withholding information? It looks to me like they answered both of your questions. I'm not sure what your complaint is here.In post 127, Vivax wrote:
The point is that I did.In post 126, UNOwen wrote:
Because the alternative is you got spooked by "hello everyone".In post 13, GeorgeCarlin wrote: Why does it seem more likely?
Suspicious attempt at saying "don't expect much from me".In post 124, Vivax wrote: Tell me what his post looks like to you and I’ll answer.
Fine, have it your way if you want to withhold information.
VOTE: UNOwen
I am mostly interpreting his posts as uncooperativeness because he’s salty he got scumread as mafia traitor and shot N1 in last game. So now he spends the remainder of his time in this game venting like that. I’m not even sure that he’s mafia.onlyreason he got vigged was his literal scumhammer out of nowhere on George immediately after his Detective claim.- Crescent
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The vibe I'm getting is that he's trying too hard to make a case out of it because he wants it to be right.In post 154, Prince of Paterson wrote:Does anyone else agree with Vivax's interpretation? This is a strange hill for him to choose to die on. I think it's a little towny to do so, though. Town often have a lot of pride in their own view of things.- Crescent
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Again, Owen was not "caught". He made a blatant scumhammer as mafia-aligned and was probably planning to drag out day 2 to slow down the town. Once he flips aligned, you don't even get a lotta information about it. His plan obviously didn't include being vigged.
Owen knew exactly what he was doing with that hammer. This argument that he'd be "enraged" is dumb.- Crescent
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Oh also I liked this guy before but I like him more now since I think this post is accurate.In post 216, Prince of Paterson wrote:Right now, I think that the series of four posts starting with 188 are the most likely thing to come from scum that I've seen so far. Fredrick A Campbell inserts himself into the main conflict of the game, Vivax vs UNOwen, and tries to add fuel to the fire of one of the sides. The fact that I believe the criticism is inaccurate (UNOwen was referring to post 138, which Fredrick himself has ignored) makes me think it's even more likely that it was a made up reason to join what looks to me like a T/T conflict and encourage it to continue.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell- Crescent
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If there's anyone in this pile I townlean, it's Prince. I also think there's merit to his vote on Fred, who did look like he was weaving a narrative specifically to fan the fire of Vivax/Owen.
There's not a single good reason to TR Fred that I can see so far. His behavior started unhelpful, then turned scummy. Meg's post feels like they are completely ignoring the fact that the one actual vote that came on him in that span was for a clearly alignment related reason.- Crescent
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The counterpoint is if Fred is scum it likely means Prince (who voted him), Owen (who he made an awful vote/shade on), and Andante (who he triggered) are all likely town. Owen and Andante would have a natural reason to join in based on the actions Fred has already committed. Andante is mad he exists, and Owen could easily be town who was scumpinged by such a bad argument. The reasoning that scum must be shading Fred is forced and the reasons for voting Andante are weak.- Crescent
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That's if he flips town. Right now I don't think he will.
The argument is forcing the presupposition that scum must be shading him, when I'm the only one in that 4 pack without a previously established reason to have done so.
Sometimes it's just 4 town members shading a scum. I see no reason to automatically assume there is scum based on the specific people involved.- Crescent
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I have no read on Andante because I can see myself acting the exact same way she has. I tend to react harshly when I'm getting shaded for godawful reasons, myself, and the early shade on her was just that.
She seems vindictive, not scummy. I don't know of vindictiveness is a scum trait of hers. What she's doing with Fred already reminds me of how NM's shitposting triggered me in 2273. My entire game was thrown off just because of his existence.- Crescent
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Hesitant? I've called the votes on her weak and for forced reasoning.In post 239, Vivax wrote:Not to mention Crescent has been happily interjecting in the defense of Owen and Prince most of the time in this game, but seems hesitant to do so with Andante. I wonder why.
Deer, meet headlights.
I stand by it.- Crescent
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I have yet to see any remotely compelling argument that it does.In post 241, Andante wrote:I don't even understand how this freaking makes me maf- Crescent
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To be frank my issue with Fred is more how awful his shade on Owen looked. The early fakespew is kinda whatever at this point. He mostly stopped after getting yelled at.In post 247, Andante wrote:and like, no one else has a major issue with how Fred started off with THREE BACK TO BACK VCs like, hello?? how is no one else seeing this as Fred is spamming just to spam?- Crescent
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I would agree with the sentiment that there's already been too much shitposting. The Chess stuff was particularly noxious and I'm glad that got curbed quickly.In post 258, Andante wrote:I seem to be like the only one here wanting to play the game (a few others too, but majority doesn't want to do anything) so you know what, if voting me is the solution... go for it. I'm stepping away, and hopefully I'm not voted out by the time I'm back, but if I am? whatever- Crescent
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They were specifically pointing at the 4 people in that cluster, and you weren't in that cluster. Gonna be honest, I kinda totally forgot about you. I wouldn't say you've done anything to ping me in any specific way yet. Your vote's probably in a good place though.In post 263, geraintm wrote:
im voting fred, do i not get a read too?In post 232, Crescent wrote:The counterpoint is if Fred is scum it likely means Prince (who voted him), Owen (who he made an awful vote/shade on), and Andante (who he triggered) are all likely town. Owen and Andante would have a natural reason to join in based on the actions Fred has already committed. Andante is mad he exists, and Owen could easily be town who was scumpinged by such a bad argument. The reasoning that scum must be shading Fred is forced and the reasons for voting Andante are weak.
Anyways, watching Andante emotionally implode as she's pressured for awful reasons feels like I'm looking in a mirror to when I'm under consistent pressure for awful reasons. It's like a "So this is what it looks like when I get emotional in a mafia game" moment.
Gut says she's a VT.- Crescent
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Prince is probably town regardless of Fred's alignment.
Owen and Gera are probably town if Fred is scum. My intel so far on Gera is he doesn't bus, though his ISO is... Super lacking. I'd look at Gera if Fred is town, though. Owen is on pace to do way more here than he did in 2273.
I'm seeing so much of myself in her and the way you especially are treating her right now that I'm being psychologically triggered by it.- Crescent
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I seem to have blanked out on some of what happened yesterday. Wondering if I actually have some form of PTSD related to my first community. Neat.
Post #332 is good to know. I'll take a glance when I'm at computer later. Think I'm going to catch up through ISOs instead of revisiting that mess. Meg seems to be the focal point this page so I'll start there.- Crescent
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Oh there were quite literally 0 posts I hadn't read either before or on this page.
..Fancypants next.
Vote on Malcom is for #261 which is.. Not a Malcolm post that scumpinged me. Comes off as arrogant like the rest of that train did, not scummy. Why did this post draw your vote?
Has now called me, Enchant, Meg, and Fred town for... No apparent reason other than "vibes" or "tone" for any of us. Do you have any play-based reasons you can point to? It feels like you're taking a bunch of simple stances without backing any of them up.
Like my tonal read on Andante was null, but I thought the wagon was awful because I thought the reasons for it were awful. What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?- Crescent
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Fred's ISO kinda just makes me want to punch him, but that just appears to be his thing. "Neat."
I'd like to hear some reasoning behind why people are townreading Enchant, because I feel like they've gotten a few random casual town reads and this ISO is almost void of actual content.
Malcolm's new stuff is just post #321.. Which just leads me right into Gera's ISO.
I find it confusing that he votes for absolutely no reason, and later calls attention to the fact that he voted for no given reason... Then shades Enchant for doing the same thing with essentially no justification, but remains on Fred anyway for.. No justification. I want him to walk me through his thought process here.- Crescent
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Pooky's ISO is bad.
Votes Meg without a reason.
Tunnels Meg without a reason.
Pressures Fred towards Meg without a reason.
This is the only content in this ISO and it feels like fake scumhunting.
Fire's only effective content is.. Hopping on Meg for no reason with Pooky. Ok yeah, this train is bad, but it's not for any tonal reasons. These votes have no explanation at all.
Owen post #333 isbad. Another blank vote on Meg and another person calling Enchant town in one sitting, in his only post in nearly 24 hours.
Greeting.... Another vote on Meg.. Another player that provides no reason for voting Meg. #177 seems like it's setting up a bad pretext to vote them, and the vote itself just comes out of nowhere.
Three straight ISOs with bad votes on the same player? Yeah I'm not touching this train.- Crescent
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Yeah as my later ISOing made it very clear.. There are none.In post 346, FancyPants wrote:
There are reasons? I did genuinely didn't see anything that looked like a case. I may have missed it, did 10 pages of catch up today.In post 342, Crescent wrote:What do you think of the actual reasons and votes on Meg?
But why not just say that before? "Tonal town read" is kind of a nothing response.- Crescent
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Lowell is another vote on Meg for... Honestly the only thing even resembling a reason so far, and it's a reason that's super easy to fake. He says the Fred wagon is ok... For absolutely no reason. It's the only time "Fred" even appears in his ISO.
I liked Prince's vote on Fred yesterday, but him having done absolutely nothing since erodes the town vibe I got from it a little. Bugspray is basically a reskinned NM who refuses to associate with NM. Oh joy. Also hasn't even posted in a day. Lee has... Two posts. They were prodded in day 1 of 2272, but this slot has kinda been a total deadzone. Guess we'll just see if it gets inactive-replaced or something.
I mean, if you talk about a train that probably has scum on it... Meg is at 5 votes, and 4 of the voters didn't even attempt to justify theor votes. This is so much different from when people were giving actual justifications to suspect Fred. There's so much smoke here, but there's absolutely no fire.- Crescent
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...Which was?In post 356, geraintm wrote:In post 336, MegAzumarill wrote:too much information
I had a reasonIn post 343, Crescent wrote:Fred's ISO kinda just makes me want to punch him, but that just appears to be his thing. "Neat."
I'd like to hear some reasoning behind why people are townreading Enchant, because I feel like they've gotten a few random casual town reads and this ISO is almost void of actual content.
Malcolm's new stuff is just post #321.. Which just leads me right into Gera's ISO.
I find it confusing that he votes for absolutely no reason, and later calls attention to the fact that he voted for no given reason... Then shades Enchant for doing the same thing with essentially no justification, but remains on Fred anyway for.. No justification. I want him to walk me through his thought process here.- Crescent
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The role "Mafia Knife-Thrower" was said as a joke, then like a year later appeared in exactly 1 game ever against a Town Gunsmith for the wtfs. It threw knives aka no need for guns.In post 396, Firebringer wrote:if mafia have no guns, how do they perform kills. Knives are for serial killers and clubs are for baseball players. Makes you think
Gunsmith where I come from is a rare role to see to begin with~- Crescent
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Speaking of Prince, he has notably fallen off a cliff since his vote on Fred. He hastwoposts since then in almost 48 hours. Any good vibes that vote made me feel are all but gone. When he made it, he was feeling proactive. Now he just feels lazy.
Owen still has given zero explanation for his Meg vote (a common theme in this game apparently), and he made it over 24 hours ago. The post before that Meg vote was shading Fred. How does this connect?
Pressuring either of these two is fine.- Crescent
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Yep, and that is normal for me. The last time I was in a game this size, it lasted 4 days, and I placed 4 votes all game. It shoulda been 2, but town suddenly did dumb things at the end of both day 2 and day 3, and I placed my vote as a course-correction. I immediately led the day 4 vote against the guy my POE had strongly pegged as the last scum.In post 443, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:Spoiler: post 442
Don't just say it, do it.
Your vote is nowhere.
Then again... I'm not used to playing games where you actually have to reach a majority to vote someone off. Actually seeing a hammer with 17 players in the game was very unlikely. Usually whoever's voted off day 1 wouldn't end any higher than like, 6 votes, unless they did something awful. It's possible I may need to revisit my general stance towards voting in large games in this community where the necessary vote count is so high.- Crescent
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There's one thing Meg has done that still bothers me, personally, but it's good to see some people actually giving some reasons for their votes.
Post #224 is what kicked off the Andante train, which was a bad train for basically no reason. Meg overplays how much pressure Fred is actually under, and underplays that most of the people involved actually had reasons. If more people in that line had placed votes, the logic wouldn't feel so forced.
Speaking of feeling "forced", that Lowell vote on Prince. Votes Fred, disappears for 27 hours, and as soon as Prince unvotes Fred, he immediately pops back on to jump on Prince. Like, Fire is right that it kinda does read like a joke, even though it doesn't feel like one.- Crescent
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Gera isn't a newbie and feels decidedly Gera so far. I should probably do a comparative ISO on him eventually because Clidd was right when he did it in late day 1 in 2273. He vibed more with the scumgame examples than the towngame examples.In post 476, Andante wrote:
these don't sound too bad tbhIn post 473, FancyPants wrote:Scum: MalcolmTucker (non-commital scum) /Bugspray (Lurking scum)/Geraintm(Newb-scum) /PookyTheMagicalBear(Experienced scum who's sad they rolled scum)
Maybe's: Firebringger/Dwlee99/Lowell
This is the post I use to gloat endgame.
Will defend these opinions to the death, come at me.- Crescent
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Oh and speaking of Gera.. What would even the point of lying about this? Enough people know where I came from, and almost no game there ever requires a majority. I specifically had no vote down on days 2 and 3 of that game for the purposes of course correction if necessary. People are often votehappy and early hammers are a thing. People on day 2 in that game randomly decided to form a mini wagon on someone very late in the day when we had 99% likely scum sitting there. My vote was on said scum with a "no thank you" less than a minute later. They did the same thing on day 3 with suddenly wagoning the wrong option late and I shut that down too.In post 452, geraintm wrote:
Is this true? Explains a lot about your play style which rubs me up so much. Always with comments and thoughts but never backing it up with any actual action.In post 449, Crescent wrote:Then again... I'm not used to playing games where you actually have to reach a majority to vote someone off. Actually seeing a hammer with 17 players in the game was very unlikely. Usually whoever's voted off day 1 wouldn't end any higher than like, 6 votes, unless they did something awful. It's possible I may need to revisit my general stance towards voting in large games in this community where the necessary vote count is so high.
But that ultimately doesn't really work as a playstyle when we actually need a full 9 votes to kill someone. Sudden late counterwagons to a guy on 6-7 aren't really going to be much of a thing in this format.- Crescent
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...Which ultimately leads me to wonder how to go about using my vote because I haven't been the kind of player who casually throws it around in years. I find I generally don't need it to provide pressure and make people answer questions... But the difference between 17 and 13 is significant when you need majority.
(For the record, I only placed 3 votes in 5 days in my last scumgame, so being a low voter is totally NAI for me. It would've been 4, but town was stupid and early hammered on day 2.)
...Ok enough spamming self-meta- Crescent
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Bugspray (NM mk. 2)In post 482, Firebringer wrote:
you need to come up with better epithets for the scum teamIn post 473, FancyPants wrote:Scum: MalcolmTucker (non-commital scum) /Bugspray (Lurking scum)/Geraintm(Newb-scum) /PookyTheMagicalBear(Experienced scum who's sad they rolled scum)
Maybe's: Firebringger/Dwlee99/Lowell
This is the post I use to gloat endgame.
Will defend these opinions to the death, come at me.- Crescent
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You're the only one calling them scum and you have like 5 posts.In post 513, Dwlee99 wrote:Why no one vote Enchant- Crescent
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Except like 5 other people think Enchant is town for it and I'm null because I don't know Enchant.In post 521, Dwlee99 wrote:
Okay true but I think I pointed out something worth consideringIn post 519, Crescent wrote:
You're the only one calling them scum and you have like 5 posts.In post 513, Dwlee99 wrote:Why no one vote Enchant
Like you actually have to be here making a consistent argument for that argument to matter.- Crescent
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I think Meg is at like 7 votes already by the way let's be careful.In post 539, UNOwen wrote:Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.
The interesting thing is I don't really think there was anything to respond to at first, as basically no one was giving a reason to be voting him in the first place, and the train looked godawful. The wagon though has gradually become more "serious" in feel for a while now - As actual arguments have been popping up. Like the only thing Meg's responded to recently is an immediate response to my pointing out they only had 3 posts in 44 hours. Why is that the thing Meg bothered to focus on?
I'm not convinced this is scum, but the Andante vote was bad and I don't see anything that really seems defensible in this ISO. I need to see more that resembles content here. Like, the most recent post speaks of a "few players I consider strongly town", but they haven't provided fresh reads in 3 days aside from telling Lee they don't think Enchant is scum.
Also Meg's vote on Fancypants is kinda like DWLee's vote on Enchant. It's just sitting there without anything additional being added onto it, and no reason to actually follow it.
Speaking of Lee though, I asked Lee to talk about anything except for that one post by Enchant and they.... Just... Left?- Crescent
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You've been one of the leading reasons why I've felt something off about the Meg train so this checks out.In post 545, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:i think it's wild that meg has yet to express any suspicion of me for pushing on meg when I have done absolutely 0 sorting of meg's slot and I think if meg was town they would at least think why the hell is pooky just shit tunneling me and doing nothing MB pooky is scum!?!?!? but instead Meg is like "this is fine" which feels more like a caught scum reaction - Crescent
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