Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Dannflor]

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Dannflor]

aw okay well if you ask so nicely

VOTE: aristeia

[Dannflor]

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

[Dannflor]

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

I don't really like this

kutiplz have you gotten any value out of reading cold meta in the past?

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

We are currently in rvs so nothing is pinging me as awkward or stiff in an uncomfortable mafia way yet.

How do I share photos

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

idk what the optimal way to play it is but i just know that town!you would be thinking about it

wouldn't scum!Ari be thinking about how town!Ari would play and how town!Ari would think about it? I don't think this is a town indicative thing

shhhh im letting her pocket me

i think its slightly town indicative. i don't think that ari's main priority as scum is to match how she'd play as town, and i don't think most people would really would have that reaction or that she would expect them to. so if it was performative it was a very directed performance

Why are you trying to pocket her

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

this sounds like a post made by someone who feels obligated to start posting real content but doesn't really have much to say yet

Code: Select all

Do you believe this is due to AI programming, or a simple human instinct?

Is this going to be a game long gimmick

I'm going to be honest none of these posts or the bolded questions inside of them really feel like genuine thoughts to me. Or rather, they are very surface level questions pushed out so that you have something to say

I'm not really getting the sense you actually want the answers to any of these questions nor that you hope some productivity will spark out of them. I might be being unfair if this is a strategy you've relied on in the past but the first one especially pings me because it strikes me as highly unlikely that anyone would be able to get reasonable value out of trawling through past games of a bunch of players they are unfamiliar with

as the very first step

to getting to know them. It seems like a way to seem productive but actually avoid having to prod people about this game. Instead it would seem more natural to me if you were prodding people about this game.

granted, you are doing that too... sorta. but "how to post photos" and the "is this going to be a game long gimmick" are both questions that like don't really require an answer, or I'm not sure what value you're hoping to gain by posting them in thread

i also find the part of the fireisred's post that you latched onto like the least interesting part because it seems clearly jokey

Yes we are in RVS and you claim nothing has been pinging you as off - but that means I expect your following questions to be trying to prod people that you think are off or just trying to get people out of their comfort zone, but I feel like I'm seeing more just posts to fill space

pedit:

it is very possible your playstyle is more fluffy here and I am misreading you based off that. how would you describe how you're trying to play this early game?

[Dannflor]

Hi Bell

[Dannflor]

do you have any impressions of any players yet? if not anything pinging you scummy has anything struck you as towny? or not really anything at all yet

[Dannflor]

interesting

I am skeptical of the value of cold meta versus personal history with someone when it comes to returning anything alignment indicative but I won't argue the point

[Dannflor]

meh, okay. I'm not going to lie and say I have any more stronger impressions than you do.

I apologize if I came off as somewhat abrasive but you're a newer player (I think?) and I was hoping you might panic a little bit if I laid it on somewhat thick. and I think it's ever so mildly towny that you didn't just start making up reads on people because I put some pressure on you

I think I'm still most scared of Aristeia for handing out free town reads to Kutiplz and GL

[Dannflor]

i think it helps to filter out things that are not AI. i don't know if it actually always makes people easier to sort, but in theory it at least stops you from getting distracted by things that are just playstyle/personality (such as, for example, the things that you took issue with about kuti)

I think you can always attribute things to playstyle/personality though

I don't have any indication that Kuti wouldn't do this as scum too, and maybe even lean into it heavier since they are already comfortable with being fluffy and making conversation early

[Dannflor]

Wait Ari gave me a townread? Why does that scare you

yknow what I completely mixed you up with KittyTacky

[Dannflor]

i assume you believe that they would be more likely to panic if they were scum?

possibly. or feel the need to generate some sort of content i would "approve" or some other awkward reaction

I do have a light town read on them now but I don't think just not-panicking makes them town

[Dannflor]

Dann I hope you read my old games

I probably won't, sorry

[Dannflor]

VOTE: fireisredsir

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

insert a pun here

[Dannflor]

the lack of reactions to GL and fireisred is... troubling

[Dannflor]

like I find it strange Radical Rat, Vivax, and Loki all came in clearly having been reading, but had nothing to say about the large wall a few posts before, or really anything substantive about the game. im not pointing fingers at anyone specifically but regardless of fire's alignment that's weird right?

[Dannflor]

I can't tell if GL is open AIing or not.

Bell I'm gonna need you to elaborate too

[Dannflor]

the wagon is on a slot getting replaced, they are effectively dead votes

[Dannflor]

hm I don't think so

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Loki Dokie

[Dannflor]

Like it’s seriously weird that you’re voting me after sussing on Fire who’s now voting me.

what other explanations might there be?

[Dannflor]

for the record I have never said I think GL is scum nor meant to imply it

[Dannflor]

long answer short my vote on fire isn't doing anything right now

your reaction to him and me is weird

and voting you is just funnier right now

[Dannflor]

long answer short my vote on fire isn't doing anything right now

your reaction to him and me is weird

and voting you is just funnier right now

You obviously have no idea who I am, do you?

no idea

I don't alt hunt and am usually extremely oblivious

[Dannflor]

for the record I have never said I think GL is scum nor meant to imply it

So what then was so extremely “troubling” to you that I failed to comment on then?

Are you planning to actually make sense at some point or not?

It was troubling to me that three people popped in and didn't comment on it. moreso the three people than GL or fire

it seemed like something that a naturally curious towny would have at least something to say about, and yet it was just kinda ignored?? and still is being ignored? idk am I taking crazy pills

[Dannflor]

I mean, someone made a case, or as much as you can make a case at this point of the game on another slot. Isn't that worth reading and either vocally agreeing with or disagreeing or drawing some conclusion from since it's one of the only bits of content in the game so far?

I'm not asking for theses or for everyone to be all caught up or have developed thoughts. It just strikes me as odd when people are present and commenting and posting but ignoring content *especially* at this stage of the game

[Dannflor]

Vivax almost seems... too scummy to be scum

[Dannflor]

Yeah I'm not necessarily town reading him I just find his posts shocking

[Dannflor]

Yeah I'm not necessarily town reading him I just find his posts shocking

Were you able/willing to get behind the point on Furtive?
Why would the 'either way' be so salient to them as town to the point of making a scumread?

Not to take away from your intention of voting Loki.

I think your tone has been awkward, the "either way" included. I think it's a fine reason to vote you at this stage of the game. I'm not sure how to read your tone yet and whether or not I should be excusing it.

I don't at all get your logic in the OMGUS vote on furtiveglance. It's fairly obvious to me that furtiveglance had a tonal read on you.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Roden

Join me here Loki

[Dannflor]

I oppose Roden lunch and Furtive is mafia
Which will probably not make a difference

I also oppose cannibalism

[Dannflor]

I think the main thing GL picked up on with fire that appealed to me was that they seemed to have a post-hoc justification for a read that didn't come off to me as an entirely natural train of though. Rather, it felt like it could have been someone searching for a reason to support that read. The whole logical error part of the argument is less enticing to me. Town make logical errors in their thinking all the time, it's more the feeling that it wasn't a natural train of thought for fire that lead me to like GL's argument.

I'll chicken out and say fire is still a pretty mixed read. They strike me as a good player and while the stuff GL is putting pressure on has me suspicious I think I need a much larger volume of content from them to develop a better read.

Meanwhile, Roden's pop-in was lacking a lot to be desired. It took the form of that cookie-cutter scum pop-in that I tend towards a lot when I have a red PM.
1. place a vote down on an easy to push townie
2. throw out a read for content
3. make one more post about anything to appear natural

more votes here

[Dannflor]

I have figured you out Loki, it is part of why I unvoted

I have reasons for being this confident on Roden but it's not something I'm keen to explain until Roden comes back into the thread

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Roden

Is this sus

Any explanation?

it's a lil sus

[Dannflor]

I don't like that vote on Radical Rat

Can you elaborate more on how Rat seems to be "hiding under the spotlight?" I don't understand why your vote is there over anywhere else

[Dannflor]

and like there are pre-established wagons on all of furtive / roden / vivax who are in your "potential votes" category

which is both awfully convenient and also makes it weirder that you would choose a vanity wagon without much of a case over one of them

[Dannflor]

exceedingly fine with a Greeting wagon

Roden, who are you town reading?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Greeting

GL why are you town reading Roden?

[Dannflor]

exceedingly fine with a Greeting wagon

Roden, who are you town reading?

Bell
Dann
GL
Kitty
Loki

Bell and GL are more like town leans though

Can you expand on Kitty and Bell?

[Dannflor]

Vivax why are you assuming I should know what Kuti is like as a player

[Dannflor]

That’s a bad assumption about my playstyle

[Dannflor]

For the record I think Vivax is probably town

I still have doubts about fire, but that fish can be fried another time

[Dannflor]

Maybe he just doesn’t like me personally

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

Committing to a full reread tomorrow. Apologies for my absence, I’ve been without service and phone posting much of the weekend. I’m not longer hot on the Greeting wagon.

GL, I’m acknowledging your response to me and my initial reaction is disagreement on your reasons for townreading Roden. But I’ll give a more thorough response on reread.

[Dannflor]

If KittyTacky is scum here then I would suspect they are being actively sacrificed by scum.

[Dannflor]

Dann why does scum!Roden link my scumgame and town clear me for it? That’s not a wk, that’s actual evidence.

If Roden has played with you before than they know that doing that is the fastest way to get town read by you

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

Committing to a full reread tomorrow. Apologies for my absence, I’ve been without service and phone posting much of the weekend. I’m not longer hot on the Greeting wagon.

GL, I’m acknowledging your response to me and my initial reaction is disagreement on your reasons for townreading Roden. But I’ll give a more thorough response on reread.

Do you scum read me? I responded to your case on me and you didn't react. You never asked why I called you obvtown either.

Was your response that you were masking? I don't really have a response to that, it doesn't really change how I see your posting.

GL said one of the primary reasons he was town reading you had to do with your interactions with Loki and... It's clear you are familiar with Loki as a player and you handled Loki exactly how I would handle Loki as scum. That is, pretty much immediately come up with a justified town read on the slot after throwing some suspicion that way. I am not sure why GL thinks this is a point in your favor as #366 is the point when you really start playing the game and the very first thing you do is explain your town read on Loki, which is based on this justification about Loki avoiding looking like he's waffling as scum

which is fine! There's nothing inherently scummy about that read, but I don't ascribe it as towny. There's not a lot of progression here. It's a reaction test > immediately finding what you were looking for as towny. Things are rarely so simple when it comes to gathering reads and I'm not sure what GL sees here as towny.

Also in response to GL I don't see the furtive push being very indicative of much given there are 5 scum in the game. Roden doesn't need to be survivalist when there are 4 other people who can push an alternative.

so the answer to if I'm scum reading you? I've cooled off on my initial scum read but I also see no reason to town read you yet. I wanted to give you some space once you started posting but I haven't seen anything yet in your postings or progressions that make me think town. I realize that's a very unsatisfying answer but that's where I'm at.

You can explain why you think I'm obv town if you like, or why you thought that. I'm sort of not sure why you're waiting for someone to ask you about it rather than elaborating with your other reads or responding to the people pushing me.

[Dannflor]

I don't really scum read Kuti

VOTE: Bell

Bell I feel like I know nothing about what you think about anyone

[Dannflor]

less feigned indifference pls

more on who you want to kill

[Dannflor]

It feels a little too deliberate when your response to a couple votes on you in the last few pages + others saying they'd be fine with a wagon on you is "nothing interesting happened." Like, "oh, look at me, I don't care about this."

Did I misinterpret that reaction?

[Dannflor]

KittyTacky, what is your read on Aristeia?

[Dannflor]

Thinking more about Dann's point about Kitty being 'sacrificed', I don't know if I really think it's all that likely because I don't get the sense from the current gamestate that there's a particular wagon being pushed by scum with an agenda

Yeah, I've cooled off on that take.

I've really been looking for potential scum theatre because I *really* think the go-to for a large scum team is to ham it up. But I might be lookin gfor stuff that's not there and the setup itself probably changes what my assumptions should be.

[Dannflor]

I was waiting to see if you would naturally ask about my read on you because it would strengthen why I think you're obvtown. I think you have a very self-centered view on the game and how you think people would/should play. I also think you have enough confidence as town to pursue anyone who you think might be trying to pocket you, and since I did town read you early without explaining it I expected that would ping you in some way but it never really did. I don't think that alone is AI but it vibes in a way that makes me think you're playing around me weird.

it is literally 75% of the reason I voted you

I thought it was a fake read and said so in #248

[Dannflor]

Dann would I be incorrect in saying that you secretly want me dead today but don't think there's enough momentum to get it done

Because I'm really getting that feeling even though my name has been brought up as a possible elim choice a few times today

you would be incorrect

I don't town read you but as the day has gone on I've become increasingly unsure of all my takes. I would not be unhappy if you died but I don't really feel great enough about it to lead a wagon.

[Dannflor]

All I know is that my gut reaction to the Vivax wagon is disgust

VOTE: KittyTacky

[Dannflor]

I didn't realize Dann was voting me. Huh. I'm town fyi.
Why are you voting town?

Why should I think you're town?

[Dannflor]

Why does this only apply to me and not like, literally every single person who backed off the moment they realized who Loki was

I'm just saying it's not reason to clear you like Loki says it is

just like it's not a reason to clear me

or anyone else

[Dannflor]

My response was me showing that the things you were scum reading me for weren't scum indicative for me. You basically scum read me for something out of your own meta, so when I explained with examples how your case doesn't really apply to me it sticks out that you don't have anything to say about that.

I'll try to be less annoyed in my response because I think that tone is causing you to make a lot of assumptions about me that are frankly wrong.

I thought your entrance was scummy. Still do. You said that it wasn't scum indicative for you (essentially a self-meta case). Unfortunately, that doesn't really do anything for me. People tend to try to play similarly as town and scum. I understand that your defense is that my idea of what scummy is, doesn't apply to you. Honestly? I think if you were town who honestly thought that and scum who thought you were being pushed for the wrong reason you'd have the same reply. I still don't like that entrance nor your play after that. You are also weirdly focused on me and defending yourself when I am supposed to be an obv town read.

Projecting your own scum game onto me again by theorizing how scum!me plays around town!Loki also just sorely sticks out because I feel like it's really clear that our playstyles aren't alike at all. You very much seem to like having attention on you no matter your alignment, but I don't. I know I'm already a pretty easy elim as town and actively seeking aggression as scum is just a dumb move for me, I'd just throw out town reads to pacify and avoid heat if I were scum because I know that's all I really need to do to survive D1.

I don't know where this idea that I'm scum reading you for something out of my own meta comes from. It seems like you just made that up. The part with the interactions with Loki comes from observing a large number of people interact with that exact same slot. I also don't think it is a reason you are scum. I think it is not a reason you are town forever. I don't like that people are clearing you or chucking you in a town lean bin.

I really think even with your questioning of me that something feels off and fake. It feels like you are trying to show that you have progressions and are sorting but I'm questioning what you are hoping to accomplish with this line of questioning on me. It feels empty.

I don't know where the idea comes from that I like having attention on me comes from. I guess it's irrelevant. Throwing out town reads to pacify and avoid heat is exactly what I don't think you are town for!!

I feel like I just talked myself back into a scum read of you but I need to take a break and come back to the thread to be sure it's not just my annoyance talking

[Dannflor]

And then I have been thinking being "obv-town" doesn't really help scum all that much cause if you get put up for a test people are gonna wonder why mafia put "obvious town" in there

one scenario I can imagine is one where mafia want to get rid of a specific voice because of their reads or because they are serving town cohesion

but they'd have to be confident in that being more beneficial than trying to an easier point

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Roden

Why

[Dannflor]

The case against Vivax is that he intentionally designs his posts to be confusing and trolly or something

I think his posting is much more emblematic of a natural stream of consciousness, the fact that he makes unusual leaps in logic doesn't seem to be necessarily alignment indicative for him

but at this point I would say his trajectories seem more natural than "designed" or "forced"

[Dannflor]

You have a town block, fire?

[Dannflor]

Hm. I think I'd just like to move forward with KittyTacky.

[Dannflor]

good game and well played!

[Dannflor]

I was skeptical that this was a fair setup for scum but I guess I was just proven wrong

I still think if you shoot the more obviously scummy person every time then town probably wins this setup a majority of the time? WIFOM is such a large part of the setup though

I think it was a fun setup but it might need a couple more runs to root out any actual problems. It feels like all the scum hunting needs to happen D1 as there's a lot of WIFOM in the later days and you really only have one factor to scum hunt off of

[Dannflor]

also i apologize fire i was convinced you were scum for so long

[Dannflor]

as frustration as watching D2 was from the dead pt, this was overall a really fun experience to play and watch

great player list too!

[Dannflor]

also aristeia, absolutely fantastic balance between putting your foot on the scale just enough to tip things in your favor but never in such an obvious way that you lost your town cred from D1

[Dannflor]

fire was too good and I thought he had to be scum because of it >.<