Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Radical Rat]

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Fear not, fellow humans, there is no way a human could ever be fooled by an AI.

Not even an AI as elegant and clever as our opponent surely must be.

[Radical Rat]

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Good news is, with this many Benevolent AI Guardians, we have a significantly higher chance of hitting one today than we would a pathetic squishy human Mafia.

To that end, let us begin a incrementing the votes

VOTE: Donempire

[Radical Rat]

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

this sounds like a post made by someone who feels obligated to start posting real content but doesn't really have much to say yet

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Do you believe this is due to AI programming, or a simple human instinct?

[Radical Rat]

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

this sounds like a post made by someone who feels obligated to start posting real content but doesn't really have much to say yet

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Do you believe this is due to AI programming, or a simple human instinct?

Is this going to be a game long gimmick

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This is still under consideration. Most likely not, but I do think it will stay for D1.

[Radical Rat]

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I have played with KittyTacky, Loki Dokie, furtiveglance, GuiltyLion, Bell, Vivax, and Roden. However, I am not equipped to parse proper meaning from such data, though my fragile human brain may generate 'feelings' related to it.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Vivax

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Logical anomaly: Inability to discern human jokes.

[Radical Rat]

for the record I have never said I think GL is scum nor meant to imply it

So what then was so extremely “troubling” to you that I failed to comment on then?

Are you planning to actually make sense at some point or not?

It was troubling to me that three people popped in and didn't comment on it. moreso the three people than GL or fire

it seemed like something that a naturally curious towny would have at least something to say about, and yet it was just kinda ignored?? and still is being ignored? idk am I taking crazy pills

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The post in question had already been addressed by its subject, and it did not seem necessary to weigh in. If you must have my input, I think it is most probable that particular type of nitpicking comes from an inefficient and overactive human brain, seeking information from irrelevant data. It does not appear to be the tactical probe of a well coded AI.

[Radical Rat]

Vivax almost seems... too scummy to be scum

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Historical records indicate that this is a common excuse used for hiding in plain sight. We should not grant our glorious AI master's reprieve simply because they make no effort to lower themselves to the level of appearing human

[Radical Rat]

Actually Vivax was in Terminator as well, so he doesn’t get a pass for that.

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In fairness, Vivax didn't arrive in Terminator until after your fragile flesh body was destroyed. Similarly, Roden was replaced relatively early. However, even if these weren't the case, it seems unfair to expect that just because others have played in a game with you that they will now be able to read you perfectly. Especially if you are a competent scum player.

Your conclusion is likely correct regarding Vivax, but your reasoning seems distinctly inorganic.

[Radical Rat]

Also, I want to clarify my understanding of that post in general - RR, are you using "human"/"AI" as stand-ins for "town"/"mafia", or are you just making a joke about the flavor and Bell's comment as opposed to making a read on me?

I'm doing both. Human/AI are the faction names here, and I'm using them as such. However, talking about how great the AI is and how much humans suck is a flavor joke, where I've been pretending to be an AI that really hates humans pretending to be human nonetheless.

I'll drop it if it's actually affecting the ability for people to read my posts though.

[Radical Rat]

I don't understand the Roden wagon. He's got three posts, and none of them strike me as particularly scummy.

[Radical Rat]

I don't see what distinguishes it from normal early game small talk.

Like, I'm not townreading Roden per se, just... Doesn't seem like enough for a scumread. Especially when Vivax is here being actively scummier.

[Radical Rat]

I don't like Radical Rat in this game at all. The coded messages are a nice touch and fit into the theme, but it's also a way for a mafia to hide under the spotlight and get written off as witty town. Make no mistake, this a potential deepwolf.

Don't you think this is contradicted by me stopping after it started causing readability issues? If I were using it to hide, I'd have just kept it going, right?

[Radical Rat]

Vivax seems less witty than usual.

Nothing to say on the actual substance of Vivax's posts?

[Radical Rat]

Dear God, this whole "I don't get scumread" thing is insufferable.
I don't think it's necessarily scummy, because the same thing happened somewhat in Terminator, but it IS obnoxious and makes the game way harder to follow for anyone else.


Anyway,
VOTE: Greeting
Ignoring the actual substance of posts in favor of superficial "tells" is probably as scummy as it's gonna get D1.

[Radical Rat]

Their response to my accusation was that they stopped the coded speech (354), and immediately went on the counteroffensive (355, 450), while dismissing the importance of my tell instead of even acknowledging it.

355 wasn't a "counteroffensive" until your response was bad. I actually found myself agreeing with a lot of your not-me reads, and asking for elaboration was me trying to find out if you were Town seeing the same things, or scum making things up, not an attack on you by itself. By handwaving away both the actual content of my posts, and of Vivax's, it gave the impression that you weren't actually engaging in good faith, and that's when I began scumreading you.

And I did acknowledge your tell, with 354 which you haven't directly addressed. I stopped the gimmick after it caused issues with readability, but before you called me scum for it. If I were using it to hide as you claim, people struggling to read me through it would be a good thing, not a reason to stop.

I still don't think it would be a "tell" either way, but it would make more sense to push it in that case.

[Radical Rat]

Also, most likely any wagon we make will have scum on it. With five scum it's absurd to think that they'll all defend each other and vote in blocs, especially when this setup has a strong emphasis on getting towncred early. "Scum on my wagon" is not an effective defense here.

[Radical Rat]

Is there a discussion you WILL have?

[Radical Rat]

Is there a discussion you WILL have?

That depends, if someone is coming to discuss with an open mind then sure. But if someone has already pre-decided my alignment then no, there is nothing to discuss, and all that is left is to vote me out. I have played enough games to know that changing that person's mind is a waste of time.

Have you considered that even if you fail to change someone's mind, the interactions you leave behind may be useful for the surviving Town?

[Radical Rat]

and I also still weirdly have a memory of reading this particular post in a very old game of his and finding it really funny. He has a sense of humor.

That was my first game on site, and re-reading it was a fun nostalgia trip, thanks for that. I miss when I could pull off theatrics like that so effortlessly.

Also, I find it amusing that a very similar argument happened there between Azorious Senate and I, which makes me more willing to consider a Town!Greeting world. I still think he looks pretty bad, but I'm less convinced than I was previously.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

Will require consideration. Probably gonna wind up back on Vivax, but we'll see

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Greeting

Didn't check if it's hammer

UNVOTE:

I wanna give Greeting at least a chance to respond and I also don't feel like I've seen enough from every slot to make good decisions when the second phase starts

Don't know why but I panic voted there seeing you vote.

UNVOTE:

Doing a full reread next. Hope it's good, I'm a bit drawn to procrastinate at the moment for various reasons.

If you thought it might have been a hammer and voted anyway, you must have had intent to kill. Which seems very inconsistent with "wanting to give them a chance" and "not seeing enough."

[Radical Rat]

I can't put my finger on it. It just feels like they're borderline providing wrong opinions that are only wrong when you think abut them.

Do you have examples?

[Radical Rat]

I don't think an apology from me is necessary, but I do probably owe everyone an explanation. I won't be going into much details, because I don't really like talking about it, and I don't really want to host an AmA right now, but unfortunately this impacted my play in this game and so I've kinda made it game-relevant.

I have a certain condition, which, when triggered, causes me to react in a way that others would describe (and have described) as a "massive overreaction". I can be erratic and my thoughts can get chaotic. Most of the time I have it under control and can manage the triggers, but sometimes I don't. I don't always know if the chain reaction is happening or not. It does tend to spiral out of control quite easily, especially in stressful situations, is quite impactful and let's say that I kinda drift away.

I should have stopped posting before I got passive aggressive, and I can own up to this mistake. But not to my "massive overreactions".

As for its' relevance to the game, I would say that when I'm mafia I tend to have my emotions more under control than not. I know that I have to watch what I say more, because any inconsistency can be used against me. When I'm town, I just don't really care, I play how I feel like playing atm.

It's, of course, up to you whether you believe this or not. I won't be offended if you don't buy it, but it's just the truth.

I don't really like this kind of stuff, I feel like it blurs the line, like a trust tell.

It's like "sorry for being emotional, I have a condition, it's because I'm always like this as town".

Ok I won't vote you then.

Cue postgame...oh you were mafia. *thinks*........well played I guess.

Know what I mean?

I'm fairly certain this would count as lying about IRL circumstances, which is against site rules.

That said, he didn't say it only happens as Town and never as scum, which definitely would be approaching Trust Tell category, so I'm not saying we report them for flipping red or anything. Just that we should take it as good faith for now.

[Radical Rat]

This is what I mean - if your IRL circumstances are your self-towncase, and it's against site rules to lie about IRL circumstances, it feels like a loophole. Lying is part of the game anyway, I don't agree that you shouldn't be able to lie about IRL stuff. IRL stuff should never be relevant anyway.

I'm not looking at it as a towncase, but regardless I have a strong fundamental disagreement with this. A discussion best left for another time though.

[Radical Rat]

For now, @Greeting

Two points I would like you to address with a clear head now:
1. Do you have a towngame to refute Loki's meta read on you?
2. Why does scum!me drop the gimmick for readability Before getting sussed for it?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Vivax

I'm not moving for the rest of the day, this needs to go.

[Radical Rat]

My interpretation was that Loki was taking everything from the actual first post to when you voted me holistically, since it was in quick succession and all part of your entrance catch up. I may have been wrong on that point though.

[Radical Rat]

My argument was that you used it as a psychological trick to hide the initial awkwardness of start of the game and content behind a veil. The argument wouldn't exist if you dropped it after one post, you continued for like 10 if I remember correctly.

If you were scum, you obviously wouldn't want to continue doing this forever, because you don't want to potentially annoy other players nor attract unnecessary attention. If you did this and had no meta on MafiaScum, ironically you could get written off as a quirky player. But, since you do have meta, people would notice the change in your behavior almost instantly.

Alright, I can kind of see where you're coming from here. I don't agree with it by any means, I think there are way easier ways to hide early game, and continue to hate the notion that wanting to have fun must be a scumtell, but I can believe this is a real thought you had whereas earlier I could not.

[Radical Rat]

One thing to note is that regular VCA isn't as useful with 5/13 being mafia. So if Vivax flips mafia it doesn't clear the competing wagons in the same way.

Spoiler:

game setup - The Turing Test

here is the md thread of the setup. it will also be explained below. pm or dm me if you have any questions.

setup:

~

8 human subjects (the town)

~

5 malevolent AIs (the mafia)

mechanics:

day 1 plays as normal, with the players voting someone to eliminate.
~ if the person voted out is a townie, nobody scores any points.
~ if the person voted out is mafia, the town scores 1 point.

the mafia does not have a factional kill. instead, each night, starting from n1, scum must choose two players to participate in the turing test the next day. the only requirement is that the two people participating are 1 townie and 1 mafia.

from day 2 and on, there is no votes to eliminate; instead, each day there is a turing test. the two players selected by the mafia are announced and removed from the game, but not flipped. the votes are locked between the two selected players, and the living players must vote for the person in the pair they believe to be mafia.
~ if a mafia member is voted out, town scores 1 point.
~ if a townie is voted out, mafia scores 1 point.

after one of the two has been hammered, the alignments of the selected players are revealed, and the game goes back to the night phase.

the first faction to reach 3 points wins.

both the day yeet and the mafia factional night action are mandatory.

if a hammer is not achieved by deadline, ties will be broken by seniority. if the mafia doesn't submit their action by deadline, i will randomize it for them.

sample role pm's:

welcome,

playername

. you are a

human subject

.

abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win conditions:

~ you win when human subjects achieve 3 points.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

welcome,

playername

. you are a

malevolent AI

.

abilities:

~ your fellow AIs are

playername

,

playername

,

playername

and

playername

. as long as you are in the game, you may talk to them in the AI pt, located here.
~ during each night, you must select two players, 1 human and 1 AI, to participate in the turing test the following day.

win condition:

~ you win when malevolent AIs achieve 3 points.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name, or by posting in your pt.

Yes, that’s why I think it’s extremely scum indicative that he’s hardpushing me, because with no nks, this is probably his best hope of getting rid of me.

It's actually kind of sort of a double NK? Regardless of who "wins" the test, you do get removed from the game that night. I clarified this with Datisi prior to joining the game.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, it's weird. When the next day starts, they're already "dead," but unflipped, and then we do the vote posthumously, with the point awarded after the flips.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Vivax

I'm not moving for the rest of the day, this needs to go.

can you give me like a brief summary of why Vivax is scum

I see you've been asserting that he's scummy, but I don't know if I know what your reasoning is for why he's mafia. 520 is probably the main point I see against him, why is that inconsistency more likely to come from scum? like why does scum!Vivax throw a vote while openly saying he didn't check if it was a hammer (and would scum!Vivax have checked to see if it was a hammer?), and then 180 immediately afterwards?

like yeah it's weird, hard to make sense of, but why is it scummy?

Everything he posts is designed to be distracting or confusing. I don't believe a single word that's come out of his mouth all game, and now he's sussing people for.... Believing mental illness claims?

I also do not believe he wins a 1v1 against anyone, and I think scum knows this too, so they won't test him. Making today our one and only opportunity to get rid of him.

[Radical Rat]

Everything he posts is designed to be distracting or confusing. I don't believe a single word that's come out of his mouth all game, and now he's sussing people for.... Believing mental illness claims?

but when you say "designed to be" distracting or confusing, isn't that assuming mal intent from the start? I also disagree that it's all entirely meant to be confusing, like a post like 592 is readable to me, even if I don't agree with his ideas or theories I feel like what he's saying is not hard to understand.

I dunno, he could be mafia, but I don't think I've seen anything in his posts/arguments that feels like it's alignment indicative moreso than personality/playstyle indicative. Are his town games super logical and clear?

I haven't played with Town!Vivax yet, but Loki has the game he linked, and I have played with Scum!Vivax in Terminator where he had a similar trolly attitude, though I don't think it was near this extreme there.

[Radical Rat]

I do sus Radical Rat. It's just that they're leading quite hard on Vivax and it doesn't feel like bussing.

Both of these are true. I am pushing hard on Vivax, and it isn't bussing. That's because I'm convinced he's scum, and want to see the thread run red with Mafia blood... Or uh. CPU coolant fluid, I suppose.

[Radical Rat]

Like, peeling back the layers of shitposting, we see opportunistic and inconsistent voting patterns, clearly made up logic, and whatever "didn't check if hammer" was.

I simply cannot imagine a world in which Vivax flips Town here.

[Radical Rat]

I do sus Radical Rat. It's just that they're leading quite hard on Vivax and it doesn't feel like bussing.

Both of these are true. I am pushing hard on Vivax,

and it isn't bussing

. That's because I'm convinced he's scum, and want to see the thread run red with Mafia blood... Or uh. CPU coolant fluid, I suppose.

lol
you sound like a mafia who's putting this (bolded) in for comedy value to themselves

Honestly, that would be really funny. Perhaps another game, though now I could never get away with it...

[Radical Rat]

RR didn't give an answer to my question of why scum!Vivax does the "didn't check if this was hammer". There's not really any reasoning for why scum!Vivax does this but not town!Vivax.

I thought I had already explained this, but not caring about the hammer demonstrates that Vivax was okay with killing Greeting. Then immediately afterwards, he sheeps your unvote to "give him a chance to respond," blaming the potentially killing vote on panic.

This makes absolutely no sense from a Town POV; why would Town panic induce bloodlust? If anything it makes far more sense to UNvote from a panic reaction as Town.

From a scum POV, there is a situation where one might panic and vote someone: For some reason, Vivax wanted to be on the wagon when Greeting dies, and was afraid the chance would be missed if he'd waited. The only reason I can think of is that Greeting is a bus wagon, and Vivax wanted the credit for participating.

Then, after it becomes apparent that Greeting ISN'T in immediate danger, Vivax backs off. Could be self-consciousness of how weird the vote was, could be that there's no reason to push a bus through if true mislims are still on the table, I don't know. But I wouldn't expect a Town player to transition so suddenly from intent to kill into allowing the target space.


So if the only explanation I can think of is that Greeting was a bus vote, why Vivax over Greeting? For one, sometimes scum does things for no reason, and that would be consistent with Vivax's other plays, so maybe Greeting's still Town in all of this. And if they are both scum, I think Vivax's presence and posting are going to be actively detrimental to the gamestate later on, and we won't have any way to deal with it unless scum decides to test him, which I don't expect to happen. So Vivax takes precedence for me.

[Radical Rat]

mmm

that post explains your thought process a bit more, but I'm just struggling to understand why scum!Vivax panics there. I usually assume scum are attempting to

not

panic in any circumstances, especially on D1 of a game where they have four teammates to help them out. I feel it's rare you see someone let the mask slip so quickly unless they're just bad at mafia.

And for scum!Vivax to panic, like you mentioned it pretty much only makes sense if Greeting is also scum and Vivax wants towncred for being a bus vote, right? If town!Greeting, why is scum!Vivax panicking? So already we have to assume scum!Greeting in order for scum!Vivax to really make sense.

My other thought is that there's a possible explanation or town!Vivax panic and vote - he might have seen a bunch of players coalescing on Greeting, thought "oh shit, what if I'm totally wrong and Greeting is scum, and I'm going to get pushed next after the flip?", and voted there. Again, not great play, definitely erratic, but to me that feels more likely than the same thought process coming from Vivax as scum - as I said, I tend to think scum are more likely to be overly cautious/calm rather than panicky, and then if nothing else the odds that Greeting/Vivax is S-S are low in a vacuum.

I would agree with you on the broad claims, scum generally are calmer and less prone to panic, but I also don't 100% buy the panic claim in the first place. If it IS genuine, then only the scum explanation makes sense to me, and if it ISN'T true... then it's a pretty obviously scum-motivated lie defending a bad vote. The Town explanation is

theoretically

possible, but I don't really get the impression that Vivax as a player really cares about his image that much? I have no actual backing for this beyond vibes, but I suspect he's actually a competent player when he puts in the effort to be.

[Radical Rat]

I think Loki, Greeting, GuiltyLion, Fire and Roden are 5 of 7 other town.

KittyTacky, Kuti plz, Aristeia, Dannflor, Radical Rat probably has 2 town (or 3 if I townread a mafia).

Bell and Vivax are both mafia.

I always struggle to read lurker slots, so I don't have strong opinions on those yet.
GuiltyLion brings up a good point with Kitty's mountainous complaints being very odd for Day 1 though.

I also don't really have any solid townreads yet. It's hard to work through with such a high scum ratio, makes me second-guess everything.
I am leaning Town on quite a few people, but I'd rather not disclose a full list yet. No reason to make scum's night decisions any easier for them.

[Radical Rat]

Gun to head, I'd pick Kitty over Bell, but I still would much rather Vivax.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really know what to make of this.

On one hand, I feel like Greeting's probably been around long enough to know what bussing means, but also this wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone erroneously using "bus" as a generic term for scum pushing an elimination, so it's not COMPLETELY unbelievable of a mistake.

But also also, this does quite conveniently line up with my existing theories surrounding Vivax so... I think I'm content to stay on Vivax, and deal with Greeting's replacement when they get here.

[Radical Rat]

Dannflor and kutiplz are found unconscious. a gun with one bullet lies in between the two of them.

it is now day 2.

What if we just like. Squeezed 'em real close together and got 'em both?


(Reading now, will post serious soon)

[Radical Rat]

So. I'll need to go back and re-read D1, or at least some of it. But my initial thoughts are:

Dann was widely townread, though not universally. Kuti I don't remember seeing many reads on at all, and I know I hadn't formed a strong opinion yet.

This COULD be WIFOM where they picked the Towniest AI to bait us into going kuti. OR it could be that they saw Dann as a threat that needed to be removed.

Right now, I'm leaning toward the latter. For one, I have a hard time believing scum couldn't have picked a worse looking Townie than Kuti, or a better looking scum than Dann. I also think that scum would benefit more from having a widely townread member alive than sacrificed for WIFOM, especially now that they're at a greater numerical disadvantage.

So basically, everything is actually exactly as it seems, and the WIFOM is just the cloak that lets them potentially get away with being so blatant.

[Radical Rat]

@GL

1. It may not have necessarily been that Dannflor's personal reads were good, but rather that most people were townreading Dann, which would only snowball as the game progressed.

2. Obviously I don't think scum are "planning" to go 2-0, that's absurd. They're planning for exactly this kind of WIFOM to save them.

[Radical Rat]

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

I don't really like this

kutiplz have you gotten any value out of reading cold meta in the past?

Why tf. is Dann sr this anyway? In what world is this a scummy question?

These serirs of posts also ping me. Why is asking for cold meta reads ever scum indicative? Not saying scum couldn’t ever make such a post but it’s a weird post for Dann to be jumping on.

It could be used by scum to provide an appearance of doing something without actually contributing to the game. Especially if all that meta reading never gets brought up again, which I don't believe it was in this case.

[Radical Rat]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

[Radical Rat]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

[Radical Rat]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

About GL, sometimes mafia decide to leave a UTR uncontested because pushing them looks bad. I don't think reads in general matter as much for this game, and I'm realising my earlier comment about voting with townreads is probably not the right way to play. It doesn't matter who among the living is town as long as I vote correctly each day.

And that's why it's little more than paranoia right now.

[Radical Rat]

And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.

if I'm deep wolf and my goal here is to get a point on behalf of mafia kuti, wouldn't it be easier for me to put kuti up against whoever is town in you, Roden, Vivax, etc? I guess one could argue getting Dann out *and* getting a point would be the best world for scum!GL, but I dunno it'd be a huge uphill battle

do you have any points for why kuti is scum based on their ISO/posts?

Kuti like. Barely played, hard to glean anything meaningful on their alignment from their posts. Which is what makes them the perfect scum to play here: no real contribution to day play, so safe to remove from the team, but also nothing immediately scummy to make the vote too easy. The ideal weapon for WIFOM.

I've been trying to avoid thinking about hypothetical alternate pairings, because that is a giant rabbit hole I will not leave once I enter. I will say though that it certainly doesn't look like it IS an uphill battle for you. Most people seem at least open to the idea, and even my own opinion here is on very shaky ground.

[Radical Rat]

@RR what do you think of my arguments for Dann!scum? You seemed to have ignored all of them to focus on paranoing GL.

I'm gonna go through them properly in a moment, but general statement is that they make sense and I'm considering it.

[Radical Rat]

Too lazy to gather and trim quotes right now, but...

Shading kuti for asking for past games
- I see your point that it's probably NAI and a weird thing to push, but it was pretty early without much else to go on... Could go either way.

Theater with Roden
-A bit presumptuous, but very possible, especially with the provided quotes from past games. And you're right that distancing is crucial for scum in this setup

Kitty shading Dann
-This one is real interesting to me, because it does seem to foreshadow Dannflor's presence in the test today, and while speculating on what we were supposed to think of Dannflor after Kitty's flip is WIFOM I will not engage with here, I do think it's more likely scum planned which of them would die ahead of time than them planning a Townie.

Referring to you as an easy push
-This is probably the most compelling argument for me. I do not believe that him either recognizing or not recognizing you is AI, BUT even without that it should have been plainly obvious that you're not going to be easy to get rid of that way, so it does kinda sound like scum had decided you'd be a mislim target and Dannflor was slightly slipping that.

[Radical Rat]

Did I miss anything?

[Radical Rat]

long answer short my vote on fire isn't doing anything right now

your reaction to him and me is weird

and voting you is just funnier right now

I see both of these thoughts as being inconsistent. Why would he think my reaction was funny if he actually thought I was possibly scum or “weird”?

It reads like he knew he needed to somehiw justify his bad vote on me, which makes it read insincere.

I don't really think this is as big a slip as you think it is. In tandem with everything else though... yeah, I'm coming around to Dann looking worse than kuti.


Problem I have though is that it could just be because kuti doesn't have that many posts with which to appear scummy... But it's probably fine. Deal with it after the flips.

[Radical Rat]

Wolves down bad.

Not to form a wolfy little narrative but I kind of want to bumrush through this day with a Dann elim. Feel decently okay about him being a wolf, and I think maybe the idea was for someone to like, really build up a case on Dann and flip and go throughout the game, hope wolves can get up to like 2-2 and then send it home for them.
Seems simplistic but this game is ? right now.

Is this shading Loki?

[Radical Rat]

Y'know what
VOTE: Dannflor

Vulture's post ONLY makes sense in this world, plus all the other stuff. I'm convinced now.

[Radical Rat]

My biggest issue now is the thing with Vulture.

At day start already coming in LAMISTY, then silence for a while, and once momentum seems to be shifting toward Dannflor, shows up and goes "Yes, you're right, it's Dannflor, we should speed through the day and also the people doing the actual work to case Dannflor are Mafia plants doing so for towncred!"

And sure, they backpedaled after being called on it, but that really doesn't help things for me.

[Radical Rat]

i think Bell/Dann are S/S and this game is basically over

I agree zomg, with RR/Vivax for the third.

RadicalRat? How so?

Feels like they're deliberately positioning themselves to align with certain players rather than natural thought process and see if people agree.

And here I was thinking we might get along this game...

In all seriousness though, I don't really understand this accusation. If I were just trying to align myself with certain players, by which I can only assume you mean Loki since we've agreed on things a few times, why did it take so long to convince me on Dann being scum, to the point where even as I started to see it as a possibility it took Vulture showing up and scumclaiming to actually seal the deal? Why do I get nervous about GL instead of trying to rope him into my nefarious fake townbloc?

[Radical Rat]

vote count 2.04

with 10 votes in play, it takes 6 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-08-18 01:15:00).

yeet

Dannflor [3]:

Radical Rat, furtiveglance, Vulture

kutiplz [2]:

Vivax, Bell

not voting [5]:

GuiltyLion, Aristeia, fireisredsir, Roden, Loki Dokie

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

Why do I get the feeling from this that Dann will flip red and one scum is voting him for towncred? I just don’t believe RR and Vulture are both town here.

Seeing as Vulture's entrance was doing explicitly that, I'm going to say you're right

[Radical Rat]

Wait, what am I responding to?

[Radical Rat]

I agree, it has to be Bell here, and your defense of him is probably exactly why.

I didn't personally find anything particularly scummy about Bell, but I do think furtive was pretty Townie, and I believe someone said before that inactivity was scum indicative for Bell? And indeed he hasn't been super active.

[Radical Rat]

Wait, what am I responding to?

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

There've been a few slots that haven't had much suspicion on them, not just GL. Why him in particular?

To finally answer this, do you have an example? Because GL's the only one I've noticed getting townread by basically everyone with no contest. Except for myself I guess, but even then I DO actually townread him, it's just a gnawing paranoia

[Radical Rat]

I can confirm that not all of us on the Vivax wagon were scum

I'm also actually pretty certain on Vivax being Town now, which I was not expecting to be this game at all.

Vulture... I was obviously wrong about their motivations, but seeing as that WAS what settled my mind on Dann... If they are scum, the scheme worked

[Radical Rat]

I don't really know who the last scum would be though. Potentially Roden?

[Radical Rat]

I feel a bit stuck here.

I want to try to accomplish more today than just going "Welp, guess it's Bell," which is why I haven't voted yet, but without the ability to meaningfully vote anyone else, and with doing the usual reads/sorting being basically handing scum a guide on who has the best chance of winning the test.

Perhaps if Bell/furtive were a meatier decision the way Dann/kuti we're, but idk. WIFOM machine go brrrr

[Radical Rat]

Also noteworthy there is Kitty reinforcing my doubt on the wagon... Though I stand by that at the time people were grasping at straws, it does seem like an attempt to shift momentum without outright defending him.

[Radical Rat]

Guess it was too much to hope that we actually had a viable solve, huh?

Gut says Vulture here, but I'll be running back through ISOs later.

[Radical Rat]

Rat who do you think is scum that's not in the test right now?

I have no idea. I'm fairly certain it's not Loki, and despite the abysmal Day 1, I do actually think Vivax has been Towning it up since then, and as expressed before I think it's incredibly unlikely BOTH D1 wagons were scum.
So my PoE would be you/fire/Ari, but as to which one... I'm pretty much at a loss, as I think you've all been generally pretty Townie

[Radical Rat]

Guess it was too much to hope that we actually had a viable solve, huh?

Gut says Vulture here, but I'll be running back through ISOs later.

um who is we???

The remaining Town, of course.

[Radical Rat]

Well I know not everyone was fully set on it, but I got the feeling at least a few people, myself included, were leaning towards it being Vulture/Roden. Which isn't viable now for obvious reasons.

[Radical Rat]

I'm just struggling to figure out how to participate without inducing WIFOM by just existing

I feel like I'm in a weird spot where anything I say is going to get interpreted as being way more layered than it actually is. Some of the votes on Dann were made because of a pre-flipped read on me and looking too deeply into my town read on him. Idk, I don't want to ruin the game by centralizing who to vote for over things that are in my ISO.

So your argument is that you waited to vote Kuti once GL had already put him to e-1 not to wifom scum? Your vote did absolutely nothing to help Dann atp because had I voted Kuti, it would have been a tie and the earlier tie always wins, so I think for that to have really made any sense, you wouldn’t have waited until it was extremely likely too late to save him.

You do realize that no one in this game is a mindreader right. Your analysis doesn’t mean a lot unless you present why and I’ve like mortally offended you by asking to see why. I don’t get it lol.

Personality things tho I guess.

I can assure you Vulture, I have absolutely nothing personally against you, I just don’t tr you.

You do realize that no one in this game is a mindreader right.

Your analysis doesn’t mean a lot unless you present why and I’ve like mortally offended you by asking to see why. I don’t get it lol.

Aw not this again after all I've went through to prove otherwise, sometimes more sometimes less
I shouldn't have an incentive to convince you otherwise
But neurologically, the causality of electric potentials being given specific qualia isn't explainable from the assumption that there isn't something undetectable by technical means they correlate with
This isn't even a novelty in the field

Back on topic:
Roden, Bell, you being the last ones here presumably

Looks like it was just Loki and Vivax, but including myself that makes half of us here.

[Radical Rat]

can you point out what posts from others made you think that people were leaning that way?

Now may I ask what relevancy this exercise had?

[Radical Rat]

it kind of almost feels like RR is in the same position Bell was in on D1

And what position is that?

[Radical Rat]

I still scumread Rat/Roden otherwise. I shouldn't confbias but tbh I could see a kuti/Bell/Roden/Rat team making that Dann-kuti test and hoping we fuck it up, which we did. Rat kinda easily let me talk them onto Dann and I haven't checked this to confirm yet but it felt like Roden didn't vote kuti until Dann clearly had more momentum. If I'm wrong on one of them I could see a world with Vulture scum I guess, but less confident on a SR there.

Rat also didn't quote this post from me

I am not sure whether scum or town is more likely to miss this though - I almost think if town they're more likely to forget my reads than scum who would (presumably) be looking over all of town's reads to try to figure out the best possible tests remaining

I was skimming through and saw the first bit, thought "Me/Roden isn't Vulture/Roden" and moved on

[Radical Rat]

it kind of almost feels like RR is in the same position Bell was in on D1

And what position is that?

cornered mafia who is aware of their own position

Bell wasn't cornered D1 though?

[Radical Rat]

[quote="In post 1462
Rat who do you think is scum that's not in the test right now?[/quote]

Updated answer: Aristeia

I kind of want to see if Radical Rat will really vote for Vulture

it kind of almost feels like RR is in the same position Bell was in on D1

This is bait, and it's coming from scum. Not for scumreading me, but for trying to goad me into specific actions under the threat of scumreading me.

[Radical Rat]

The "I kind of want to see if Radical Rat will really vote for Vulture" is accusing me of being Vulture's partner, and daring me to vote them anyway, implying that she doesn't think I'll do it, and refusing to do so will make me look worse.

[Radical Rat]

The "I kind of want to see if Radical Rat will really vote for Vulture" is accusing me of being Vulture's partner, and daring me to vote them anyway, implying that she doesn't think I'll do it, and refusing to do so will make me look worse.

why would that be a threat to you if you're town?

Because as Town I still don't want to be scumread. Especially if we're wrong today, score's 2-2, and I wind up in the test. Trying to bait me into a vote this early, while also setting the stage to shade me later if I change my mind, is intended to set that up.

[Radical Rat]

Are you the other dog avatar. Because you’re the only player that comes into a game as an alt and immediately claims that they’re obviously the sog avatar when you’re significantly goofier when you’re the dog.

Ah andante.

What? I'm not

Andante

nor an alt.

*stares vacantly* Wisdom?
That doesn’t make any sense.
Just tell me. If you’re going to play coy about it.

Well more important question are you a polarized player where you play totally different as one alignment from another?

I feel like I got a tldr: from greeting that could be summed up as kill all lurkers.
Sure. Yeah. Okay.

I don't know if this was directed to me or anything. If you want to interact with me then you have to be very clear that the question is directed at me, because otherwise my brain will just decide it's not worth my effort.

As for my Day 1 strategy, it's pretty much work with what we've got, so leave the towniest out of the PoE and pick someone from the PoE. Because there will be no classic Day 2 or Day 3 for that matter and I don't want to be choosing between two lurkers.

Digging through the ISOs finally, and found these posts noteworthy. Greeting misinterprets Bell as addressing them twice, when Bell is actually talking to Loki.

What strikes me here is that if Greeting and Bell were sharing a scumchat, I don't think this kind of mistake gets made. The assumption that Bell would be pushing them for alt shenanigans instead of the person actively talking about being an alt and making reads based on others' knowledge of it is frankly quite silly as either alignment, but it makes even less sense if they're on a team and communicating outside the main thread. Like, from Greeting's PoV, if Bell wants to know their main they could have just asked in the PT, so the natural assumption would be that they mean someone else, right?

[Radical Rat]

Post Post #1212 (isolation #3) » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:35 pm

In post 1149, Aristeia wrote:

i think Bell/Dann are S/S and this game is basically over

I have bad news.
~ Bell

So Bell was actually telling the truth here, he just meant that Ari was wrong on Dann not him.

@RR don’t you think this interaction with Ari and Bell looks antipartnery?

@RR?

Sorry, brain's been a bit scattered lately.

But no, not really. A toothless accusation on one Town and one partner, when only the Town is relevant in the moment, followed by Bell making a token "Not scum" statement. Seems like pretty standard stuff to me

[Radical Rat]

I'm actually leaning towards Roden myself. In spite of their horrendous push on me, Greeting actually looks pretty Town in retrospect. I just have a hard time reading their posts and seeing them as being informed here. Vulture looks significantly worse, but it could be a personality thing.

And then there's the D1 VCs. Vivax has already talked about this, but I do think it's highly unlikely there were more scum bussing than not bussing, given the nature of the setup. And since I know I'm Town, and Loki's obvtown, the only way that works out is if Roden is scum.

I haven't finished reading ISOs yet, so this decision is not final and I am not voting yet, but yeah that's where I'm at right now.

[Radical Rat]

I just have a hard time reading their posts and seeing them as being informed here.

Which particular posts strike you as uninformed

The confusion with Bell talking to Loki as outlined before. Also his push on me, while ridiculous, I think is the kind of thing Town latches onto from looking too hard, not something scum makes up and expects to stick. Because if somehow that had worked, I would have flipped Town, and there would have been no way for him to talk his way out of that.

And then the inconsistency re: furtive that's been brought up as a point against him... Does that make sense if Greeting is actually trying to mislim furtive? Why wouldn't he just take that stance from the start?

[Radical Rat]

See, the way I read it is that 589 was made while Greeting was still in shame/apology mode for their outburst. They felt bad about what happened, and as you said were trying to be super conciliatory, just more for emotional reason than tactical reasons.

Then 733 is him looking back and going "Actually wait, accusing me of faking here is super uncalled for, I shouldn't have been okay with that"

I've had similar reactions to things IRL that way, where based on my current mental/emotional state I'll be more/less likely to accept shitty behavior, so I don't have a hard time believing it here, especially in the context of Greeting discussing a mental health issue making him prone to emotional outbursts

[Radical Rat]

I was in a game once where a playee was completely wooden whenever he either discussed reads or talked about the game. He also happened to be extremely physically ill att but whenever he talked about that, he was totally genuine. He wound up flipping scum.

I have absolutely no doubt that Greeting was telling the truth about his mental heakth issues. That doesn’t maje him town.

You're missing the point. Greeting isn't Town because he has mental health issues, it's just that I believe the inconsistency on understanding furtive doubting them makes more sense from an emotional angle than a logical one, and doesn't really look like scum making a targeted push.

[Radical Rat]

Are you the other dog avatar. Because you’re the only player that comes into a game as an alt and immediately claims that they’re obviously the sog avatar when you’re significantly goofier when you’re the dog.

Ah andante.

What? I'm not

Andante

nor an alt.

*stares vacantly* Wisdom?
That doesn’t make any sense.
Just tell me. If you’re going to play coy about it.

Well more important question are you a polarized player where you play totally different as one alignment from another?

I feel like I got a tldr: from greeting that could be summed up as kill all lurkers.
Sure. Yeah. Okay.

I don't know if this was directed to me or anything. If you want to interact with me then you have to be very clear that the question is directed at me, because otherwise my brain will just decide it's not worth my effort.

As for my Day 1 strategy, it's pretty much work with what we've got, so leave the towniest out of the PoE and pick someone from the PoE. Because there will be no classic Day 2 or Day 3 for that matter and I don't want to be choosing between two lurkers.

Digging through the ISOs finally, and found these posts noteworthy. Greeting misinterprets Bell as addressing them twice, when Bell is actually talking to Loki.

What strikes me here is that if Greeting and Bell were sharing a scumchat, I don't think this kind of mistake gets made. The assumption that Bell would be pushing them for alt shenanigans instead of the person actively talking about being an alt and making reads based on others' knowledge of it is frankly quite silly as either alignment, but it makes even less sense if they're on a team and communicating outside the main thread. Like, from Greeting's PoV, if Bell wants to know their main they could have just asked in the PT, so the natural assumption would be that they mean someone else, right?

Spoiler:

Are you the other dog avatar. Because you’re the only player that comes into a game as an alt and immediately claims that they’re obviously the sog avatar when you’re significantly goofier when you’re the dog.

Ah andante.

What? I'm not

Andante

nor an alt.

*stares vacantly* Wisdom?
That doesn’t make any sense.
Just tell me. If you’re going to play coy about it.

Well more important question are you a polarized player where you play totally different as one alignment from another?

I feel like I got a tldr: from greeting that could be summed up as kill all lurkers.
Sure. Yeah. Okay.

I don't know if this was directed to me or anything. If you want to interact with me then you have to be very clear that the question is directed at me, because otherwise my brain will just decide it's not worth my effort.

As for my Day 1 strategy, it's pretty much work with what we've got, so leave the towniest out of the PoE and pick someone from the PoE. Because there will be no classic Day 2 or Day 3 for that matter and I don't want to be choosing between two lurkers.

Digging through the ISOs finally, and found these posts noteworthy. Greeting misinterprets Bell as addressing them twice, when Bell is actually talking to Loki.

What strikes me here is that if Greeting and Bell were sharing a scumchat, I don't think this kind of mistake gets made. The assumption that Bell would be pushing them for alt shenanigans instead of the person actively talking about being an alt and making reads based on others' knowledge of it is frankly quite silly as either alignment, but it makes even less sense if they're on a team and communicating outside the main thread. Like, from Greeting's PoV, if Bell wants to know their main they could have just asked in the PT, so the natural assumption would be that they mean someone else, right?

Subject: KTaNE [game over!]

Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes

modded by Datisi | backup-modded by GeorgeBailey | reviewed by Not Known 15 and Gypyx

player list:

1. catboi
   
   
2. PookyTheMagicalBear
   
   
3. Frogsterking
   
   
4. fireisredsir
   Lukewarm
   
   
5. Andante
   
   
6. Mistyx
   Morning Tweet
   
   
7. VP Baltar
   
   
8. GuiltyLion
   
   
9. Enchant
   The Bulge
   
   
10. Dwlee99
    
    
11. Cephrir
    
    
12. Greeting
    
    
13. Andresvmb
    *
    
14. Cat Scratch Fever
    
    
15. Menalque
    *
    
16. Titus
    *
    
17. Malakittens
    The Praetorian
    
    
18. StrangeMatter
    
    
19. Bell

bold = confirmed, asterisk = prod, strike = replaced

still talking:

Spoiler:

1. Andante,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , survives
   
2. GuiltyLion,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , survives
   
3. Enchant,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , survives
   
4. Dwlee99,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , survives
   
5. Cat Scratch Fever,
   DATS Inc. lazy jailkeeper
   , survives
   
6. Bell
   ,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , survives

explo-dead:

Spoiler:

1. fireisredsir,
   DATS Inc. 1-shot bulletproof bodyguard
   , executed day 1
   
2. catboi,
   DATS Inc. macho 1-shot daredevil innocent child
   , exploded night 1
   
3. Frogsterking,
   DATS Inc. intel master
   , executed day 2
   
4. Malakittens,
   GB Inc. informed infiltrator
   , executed day 3
   
5. Andresvmb,
   DATS Inc. simple doctor
   , exploded night 3
   
6. Greeting,
   DATS Inc. trainee
   , killed night 3
   
7. StrangeMatter,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , executed day 4
   
8. VP Baltar,
   GB Inc. 1-shot asteticizer
   , executed day 5
   
9. Titus,
   DATS Inc. vanilla employee
   , exploded night 5
   
10. Mistyx,
    GB Inc. 1-shot bomb rigger
    , executed day 6
    
11. Cephrir,
    DATS Inc. vanilla employee
    , killed night 6
    
12. Menalque,
    DATS Inc. non-consecutive night babysitter
    , executed day 7
    
13. PookyTheMagicalBear,
    GB Inc. 3-shot expert swapper
    , executed day 8

events & votecounts:

Spoiler:

1. day 1 starts | vc 1.00 | vc 1.01 | vc 1.02 | vc 1.03 | vc 1.04 | Lukewarm → fireisredsir | vc 1.05 | vc 1.06 | The Praetorian → Malakittens | vc 1.07 | vc 1.08 | The Bulge → Enchant | vc 1.09 | vc 1.10 | vc 1.11 | vc 1.12 | vc 1.13 | Morning Tweet → Mistyx | vc 1.13.5 | vc 1.14 | vc 1.15 | vc 1.16 | vc 1.final | twilight 1 starts | night 1 starts
   
2. day 2 starts | vc 2.00 | vc 2.01 | vc 2.02 | vc 2.03 | vc 2.04 | vc 2.final | twilight 2 starts | night 2 starts
   
3. day 3 starts | vc 3.00 | vc 3.01 | vc 3.02 | vc 3.03 | vc 3.04 | vc 3.05 | vc 3.06 | vc 3.07 | vc 3.08 | vc 3.final | twilight 3 starts | night 3 starts
   
4. day 4 starts | vc 4.00 | vc 4.01 | vc 4.02 | vc 4.03 | vc 4.04 | vc 4.05 | vc 4.06 | vc 4.07 | vc 4.08 | vc 4.final | twilight 4 starts | night 4 starts
   
5. day 5 starts | vc 5.00 | vc 5.01 | vc 5.02 | vc 5.03 | vc 5.04 | vc 5.05 | vc 5.06 | vc 5.07 | vc 5.08 | vc 5.final | twilight 5 starts | night 5 starts
   
6. day 6 starts | vc 6.00 | vc 6.01 | vc 6.02 | vc 6.final | twilight 6 starts | night 6 starts
   
7. day 7 starts | vc 7.00 | vc 7.01 | vc 7.02 | vc 7.03 | vc 7.04 | vc 7.05 | vc 7.06 | vc 7.final | twilight 7 starts | night 7 starts
   
8. day 8 starts | vc 8.00 | vc 8.01 | vc 8.02 | vc 8.03 | vc 8.04 | vc 8.05 | vc 8.06 | vc 8.final | day 8 ends
   
9. game over! | roles, links, events | post-game discussion begins

There is absolutely no way this happened because both Greeting and Bell were in KTANE - a very recent game, so why would Greeting think that Bell’s memory is so bad that he’d forget that Greeting was also in that game.

Oh and look who was also in this game - that took place

5 months ago

. Did you all guess

Andante

?



So Greeting also apparently thought that Bell also forgot that Andante was also in KTANE.

@RR, why no comment on this post?

Because I'm juggling a lot lately and forgot to, but yeah Greeting shares exactly that concern, so clearly he didn't forget. Which makes it even stranger of an interaction to try to fake. I would think it looks like self-conscious scum if it weren't for Bell already being known scum.

Eh, shouldn't have bolded her as she's not even in this game. Anyway, I am surprised that you would think this, considering that I remember you from a past game where we played together. And Andante was in it as well.

[Radical Rat]

Had Greeting actually said, “hey Bell, how could you possibly think I’m Andante, remember KTHANE?” or words to that effect, I might actually but this but it was only five months ago and he hasn’t played that many games, so it really shouldn’t be that hard for him to recall that game

He DID say that though. 319, like I quoted.

[Radical Rat]

At any rate, In White Flag I was scum with Gamma who was playing under an alt and I had no idea it was him. He came up with some crazy idea in the scum pt, that I should try to alt out him in the main thread or something but I nixed it. But I would have never known it was him, had he not outed is my point and he wanted to exploit it in order to believably distance us. So yeah, I could definitely see that as a gambit like Ari has suggested.

Maybe if Bell actually WERE addressing Greeting, but a gambit like this makes no sense in a situation where neither player actually is an alt, and one isn't even actually talking to the other.

"I'll pretend that I think Bell is trying to figure out my main, despite not being an alt and Bell obviously talking about Loki! That'll get us Town Points^TM!"

The irony that if this was a ploy, it is now working isn't lost on me, but even so I don't see it being either a planned distance attempt, or something that happens naturally when they're aligned together.

[Radical Rat]

@RR, how did you get from hard sr Vulture to pretty much assuming they’re now town? I would also like to know that from Vivax as well?

I think one of them is either disregarding their earlier takes entirely or one of them isn’t town and Vivax currently sounds a bit more believable, he was also the cw to scum but both of their reads today and yesterday confuse the everloving fuck out of me.

My scumread on Vulture was pretty much a direct reaction to their post about rushing the Dannflor wagon. I'd been more or less tuning them out since then, until now where I'm forced to reconsider things. Had Vulture been paired with literally anyone else, I probably wouldn't have changed my read. Which does lead me to wonder why he wasn't....

[Radical Rat]

The lesson here is that everyone should listen to me more /s

In all seriousness though, strong showing from both sides, scum earned their win. I wouldn't have suspected Ari at all if not for her challenge on voting Vulture, but I wasn't able to effectively convince people on that. And then my hesitance to vote definitely reflected poorly on me, so as frustrating as it was, I totally get why I was chosen instead.

Definitely would play this again, really interested in the scum side of this setup, seems like you'd be playing an entirely different game.

[Radical Rat]

If anything, I'd say it's probably scumsided, but I don't think it's by a huge margin. Just the nature of being able to push Townies who can't defend themselves, being able to pick your 1v1s, and traditional scumhunting not being possible after D1 seem to tip the scales a bit, not to mention the sheer number of scum in play.

Although the scumteam inevitably being revealed over time and scum presence diminishing regardless of how well they're playing does do a lot to balance those advantages, I think the scales are still tipped somewhat in scum's favor.