Warrior Cats Mafia [Day Three]

[Frozen Angel]

VOTE: Frozen Angel long time no see!

-

Okay, that's good.

<3 Missed you friend

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Frozen Angel]

I can confirm that Bell is in Riverclan and guess seeing so many clans it can get confusing

Not sure what to make of that "self-knowledge" about derping about setup though. That felt faked as hell

[Frozen Angel]

Star clan = town
Dark forest = mafia

any other clan seems to be like a neighborhood

[Frozen Angel]

bell you meantioned you derp on setups regularly as town

would you say you're self aware enough to fake this as scum potentially

[Frozen Angel]

My goal is to get eliminated within the first page for having a dog avatar.

Task failed successfully i guess?

Am i the only one in the thunderclan, nobody posted anything yet apart from me?

I've posted in the ThunderClan PT. I don't see your post in there. Double-check that you posted in the right PT?

Would appreciate an answer to this!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Charloux

I was just messing with him?

You faked you're in a neighborhood?

[Frozen Angel]

I don't understand what the problem is. I saw him being the only one to post in the pt and was like "Is there anybody in the thread" to have fun.
Was going to keep playing dumb but i guess it's better not?

so you faked you posted in the neighborhood at start to mess with people head who can see you didn't post there? That kinda makes no sense

More likely that you confused PTs and posted elsewhere first instead and then started acting like you were messing with people in some way when called out?

VOTE: Charloux

[Frozen Angel]

I don't understand what the problem is. I saw him being the only one to post in the pt and was like "Is there anybody in the thread" to have fun.
Was going to keep playing dumb but i guess it's better not?

so you faked you posted in the neighborhood at start to mess with people head who can see you didn't post there? That kinda makes no sense

More likely that you confused PTs and posted elsewhere first instead and then started acting like you were messing with people in some way when called out?

VOTE: Charloux

That would imply no one else posted in the scum PT though which seems incredibly unlikely?

He could have posted there at start of phase and didn't check it again assuming it was the neighborhood pt? and then slip up at post 40 and /back track on it fast again

I don't know. It's not like a solid slip but it just makes no sense otherwise

[Frozen Angel]

Why is me confusing pt more likely than me deliberately having fun over someone being alone for an hour?

Maybe the issue is that I don't understand what was fun about the lie you said in the main thread?

Like whats the fun in saying you posted something in a neighborhood chat others can see you haven't posted on at all?

[Frozen Angel]

Sorry you have no sense of humor

shots fired but oki

[Frozen Angel]

bell you meantioned you derp on setups regularly as town

would you say you're self aware enough to fake this as scum potentially

I mean assuming he was scum I doubt he would answer that honestly FA

ALSO HI EVERYONE IT HAS BEEN A WHILE

Hi my shirrroooooooooooooooooooooooooo <3

how you doing friend

about the question, just wanted him to say it basically. I liked the way he responded kinda

[Frozen Angel]

[Frozen Angel]

hey alisa <3 love u how you been

i think frozen angel is scummy for trying to over-explain her vote on charloux

What part is over-explanation? All of her explanation is in response to direct questions.

i think what she called as "makes no sense" actually makes complete sense

if she actually thought about the second part of the post 79, she would come to the conclusion that that implies nobody posted in the scum pt, which like. really REALLY isn't likely.

this is what i mean by over-explainy - she presented a reasonable explanation, dismissed it as "doesn't make sense" (even though it does), and then proceeded to try to justify her vote and appear like she's Really Thinking About The Game

even though she's not (because if she was, she'd realize that nobody posting in the scum pt is unlikely)

So you think I'm pushing him for a fabricated read based on this, yet you didn't vote me. Is there a reason for that?

[Frozen Angel]

regardless

"so you faked you posted in the neighborhood at start to mess with people head who can see you didn't post there? That kinda makes no sense" This is the mentioned sentence. It makes no sense cause people can see he didn't post there. its not funny, its not messing with their heads, it just doesn't make sense as I mentioned.

Its not a solid slip of any sort but its just something that stands out.

them saying now that it was a teen joke also makes no sense to me and seems alarming.

If it all makes sense to you would love to hear about it from you

pedit: e

[Frozen Angel]

yes, i wanna keep voting norwee

why? it felt like you do have a solid case against me yet you said nothing about your other vote?

[Frozen Angel]

well theoretically if this was a true slip, he only needed to mistake the scum pt with neighborhood pt when he posted - which could be earlier than when he made the post in the thread (or anytime toward the start of the phase). then later he would be like "I don't see the thread popping up with an unread notification so I'm the only one posting" so he made the comment

FA is the type to deliberately push phony reasoning like that but of course, my meta is stale

I see you remember my reaction testing and behavioral pattern analysis style

i am townreading frozen angel for calling a case against herself solid in the process of questioning someone else

re: charloux: the case where i might find this compelling is one where the scum chat was not open until game start (possible because the neighbor PTs weren't) but there is no way to know this probably

well, that was just my assumption cause that was how all neighborhood chats were, and no access to even see those threads were given till the game started.

Personally not a fan of 127 either. feels faked and forced to assume scum has no day chat directly after being accused of slipping by mistaking private threads.

[Frozen Angel]

So the content posted in this game tripled over last day and I have a lot of catching up to do. will spend some time on it when I can later tonight.

[Frozen Angel]

Catching up. sorry for the walls incoming

It was mainly snark and confusion on my end; I did think that it might be a PT slip but figured that scum would be more careful. I hadn't considered whether or not the scum PT would be open during pre-game.

I was too busy trying to figure out if I was misreading the title of the Clan PT.

yeah, ... what?

what do you mean with the bold

I'm not sure I buy bell's explanation, and I'm also reading an twinge of complaint in SS's 31 regarding the mod having potentially screwed over dark forest - and I don't understand why there would be "a hard time parsing this from any alignment." If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

Nobody else seems to have had any trouble, and, while yes, I can see how being simultaneously a member of Starclan + a neighbourhood clan might be a source of potential confusion; I am wondering how it is possible to confirm in reply to the role PM ones "role and alignment" whilst that confusion remains. Surely you sort that out there and then while confirming?

What am I missing?

If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

I don't want to talk about the wording my role PM if said wording is not public knowledge.

Thats an interesting question actually

why would town you want the wording clarified to all slots when if its hidden you can potentially catch a scum slipping (as bell was getting pressured early for it)?

I know the sample pm had to be published for game integrity sake but that response is alarming me

and about bell, bell explanation was that as part of river clan knowing we need dark forest cats eliminated to win but he didn't know if dark forest cats are all the mafia or just a smaller group of them (like if we or just him had a special wincon or something)

Regardless I didn't see that inconsistent with his post at the time in river clan itself either and I find the attidue - and confusion about the "clan" wordings for both town and the neighborhood NAI on its own

OUR LEADER (CHARLOUX) SEEMS ALIGNED WITH STARCLAN BECAUSE OF THEIR POSTS IN OUR CLAN PT

Why would you share that detail in main thread?

But, Dr Worm wasn’t a really doctor. So you’re not really scrrrd.

SHARP PENGUIN. DO YOU WANT TO VOTE SOMEONE IN OUR CLAN TODAY?

STOP.GIVING.INFO.WHEN.WE.DONT.KNOW.MAJORITY.OF.SETUP.
VOTE: SCRRRRBEAR

I liked this reaction

Alisae being a bit lazy. no be lazy alisae. Dann is doing fine in these pages

Anyone who thinks there is exactly 1 scum in each neighborhood should mathematically be voting Titus.

Do we all agree that is a stupid assumption now? Great!

where did this suddenly come from. also titus can be scum or town regardless of that hypothesis so its kinda weird to tie those things together

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

@Dann,

Let's break this down.
Arbitrary assumption regarding scum being left out. Neon sign of scum being left out of a clan.
Lack of telling me to shut up when I announced I was a stray + lack of objection with many hood claims already suggests no urgency to deny scum essential information from their alleged pov.
There was a total lack of pushback on my belief that I was the sole stray.

It's not enough to cry slip, but it's close.

Assuming i have 200 IQ and can put the pieces together as soon as they come.
Spoiler: I don't have 200IQ

The other leaders should be able to piece together why i made that theory.

I cant follow any part of this interaction over third read right now and its annoying me. there are absolutely no intel to make assumptions about how scum are distributed along the clans or out of it (unless if you have an intel to share with specifics) and any kind of speculations can actually lead to more fallacies than logic.

like why would you assume the mod didn't randomize properly the process?!

[Frozen Angel]

have you played with val before? he seems p on brand so far based on what ive seen from him in previous games

nah. I only started playing again after my 1 year vacation from site was lifted. The I easier way to describe just what it is I feel when I read that ISO + hood activity is that guy is actually not even trying to form reads.

did we just came back to MS together?!

holy that's some bound

I don’t want to believe Alisae is scum becauve they’ve been so helpful to me and seemed genuinely trying to solve me.

Please don't do that

we have 5 so i think yours are just missing people so far

(me / bell / penguin / fire / ceph)

umm?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they are both ice-related

I'm also queen shifty so I guess it's confirmed we're the same person



pedit:noted alisae

and cephir it just felt so random and discounted from what was being said in thread at the time. any specific reason you mentioned it?

[Frozen Angel]

This has the potential to be a really dumb read but Norwee seems relaxed, which I think is townie? He seemed pretty stressed out when he left the site and I think if he drew scum he'd be feeling a lot of anxeity but the way he's posting just feels like he's self-assured of his own innocence. Does remind me a bit of how he was playing in the game where I tried to shitpush him as scum.

sure but how you concluded they are

relaxed

? low post count? less reaction to getting voted?

something_smart prob town, btw.

I need you to elaborate this one for me

But I just scum read Datisi because their approach aligns with what I think of as their scum game.

can you talk about this a bit more

Datisi is maybe a little too self aware about the reads on his slots

shit fuck i need to start getting ready for class, fuck page 15 i guess

alisae vibes townie because they kinda feel honest in their approach to the game and i also completely understand the annoyance with val because god knows i've been there
also now i think norwee is townie bc i'm kinda lowkey sheeping alisae on that and also if he's posting in hood, that makes sense why he's kinda underwhelming

unrelated to those two, scrrdbear is town

everything in me is screaming that val is scum but have been wrong before

@penguin, why did you vote 2nd leading wagon instead leading wagon (are you a competing wagons kinda penguin, i forget)

VOTE: charloux - 363

Oh my that is a bit of a hard 180 for datisi over that vote. trying to fabricate a scum read on the slot to seem like they are solving the slot is a theory getting more likely in my head.

so hard approving the wagon on datisi after this

i don't want to vote val rn because i have been wrong before so i want to give more time to sit on that, and i don't think voting him will help me solve him (as it will with charloux)

That is a bit crumbling

not sure what to do with mastina

VOTE: Charloux
I think there’s been major off vibes from this slot. They’ve been involved in multiple shifty scenarios now and their responses always pinged me as weird.

would you mind sharing those off vibes in details

UNVOTE: Charloux

It's a theory based on Titus claim, the number of people in my pt and the details of my role.
3 more people have yet to post, and we can't confirm that everybody who posted is a member of a clan.

This post seems pretty town. Generally I see scum being too afraid to vaguely reference their role like this, because it requires planning out a specific fakeclaim and committing to it. (And it's pretty hard to retroactively come up with a fakeclaim that matches a soft like this.)

I think my top vote choice would be Mistyx but I'll make some modicum of an effort to consolidate votes and join mastina on Norwee.
VOTE: Norwee

For now I'm feeling okay with a towncore of {Charloux, mastina, Marashu, Val, Shiidaji} + perhaps Bear (I will have to reread their posts, and I had enough trouble reading them the first time).

It's probably kind of a problem that the people I'm most inclined to townread are often the people I clash the most with, and the ones I'm the most paranoid of are the ones I love talking to and solving with.

why would you have mastina and Shiidaji on town core and why do you scumread norwee? and you feel like them talking about the number of scum in different clans (which I tell is baseless from my intel) makes Charloux more town for some reason? and enough to put him in town core?

This post doesn't feel right

Hi I am a mason.

Why must people who claim mason in their first post get mason roles instead of me. The world is so unfair.

Cephism spotted.
+1 to Bell’s irritation.

I think its best if you stop posting like this with the 200 cap on total posts. would hate to see players muted mid day over them posting random comments.

Mistyx, Datisi, Norweigan; What is even your goal with my wagon? Do you want me to explain my thought process for yesterday? Claim all my role details?
Explain my theory in detail? Do you want to get me to L-1 and act shocked when someone hammers?

My goal is to flip mafia.

Are you a relatively new player? (this is not me understimating newer players - just asking if you're familiar with the game concepts deeply or not)

Mistyx, Datisi, Norweigan; What is even your goal with my wagon? Do you want me to explain my thought process for yesterday? Claim all my role details?
Explain my theory in detail? Do you want to get me to L-1 and act shocked when someone hammers?

My goal is to flip mafia.

Unless you know something about the setup that i, as town clan leader don't, you have 0 reason for me to be your main target of scum flipping attempt.

This post is absolutely triggering. You and I both know that there is nothing clearing clan leaders in any way and leaders can be town or mafia too. so to use it to get town cred is absolutely gross.

[Frozen Angel]

i was catching up and saw someone using the hoods as categories to hunt in which is a pet peeve of mine

If you mean Charloux I'm kinda getting the vibe that they did that as well because they are mafia.

"Sorry you don't have a sense of humor" was especially iffy response.

WHY?

It was though. I give norwee that. Joke is supposed to be funny right?

I find Dannflor's point regarding Charloux in 384 to be persuasive - and to a lesser degree Something_smarts point about the reference to having some sort of role in 416 - and find myself agreeing with the townreads on Charloux. I don't think that is the right place for a wagon either.

I don't see anything that particularly pings me about Marashu from what is evident in this thread. Anyone from Thunder able to give me a TLDR on what's happening in there to want to wagon Marashu, or point me to it if it's already been given and I've missed it?

The part of role Charloux claimed is known to a group of players already and the same role is shared by those players. Its not like he dropped a claim that can be countered. what he dropped was absolutely nothing related to that role + some misleading information/inferences and then trying to use that claim directly for town cred.

I'm not gonna let that slide by

I don't see anything that particularly pings me about Marashu from what is evident in this thread. Anyone from Thunder able to give me a TLDR on what's happening in there to want to wagon Marashu, or point me to it if it's already been given and I've missed it?

I shared my role and what it does(Regretting it deeply now), then we had a bit of a discussion.
After this Bear came, shared a lot of reads. Marashu also had some reads.
The last thing i commented is that i don't see a point in talking in the pt since bear will just say everything in the main thread, so i might as well skip that step and post directly.

The thing on Marashu is bear trying to clean the thunder pt from scum.

Are you regretting it truly though? cause I saw no remorse in you trying to show it off as a town clear by misrepresenting it

on the topic of charloux - meh. i am *fine* with that answer, i vaguely remember agreeing with some stuff some said about him being town, and i don't wanna push on mech early anyway. so.

UNVOTE:

I don't like this unvote as much as I didn't like the vote itself. The backtrack sounds so shallow

[Frozen Angel]

Oh my that is a bit of a hard 180 for datisi over that vote. trying to fabricate a scum read on the slot to seem like they are solving the slot is a theory getting more likely in my head.

why do you think that is fabricated?

(also, there is something really funny to me about fa accusing me of being too aware of the reads on me, while bear is accusing me of not sorting people enough via their reads on me. damned if you do...)

cause I cant see the way you got there naturally.

and both are true. you simply questioned the reads on you and didn't dive in them as a town mindset would want to investigate the details of it to sort out?

[Frozen Angel]

whatever this clan leader thing is, at least 2 and i bet 3 of you are outed so maybe there's not any point in playing coy about it

we all are outed to each other anyway. so there is nothing coy about it at all. and its certainly not making any of us more or less town/mafia. if anything I lean on at least facing one mafia leader based on the mechanics involved but I bet it had randomness too.

I am river clan's leader.

so if you've been influenced by a leader wrongly to assume they have a very special role that clears them, you better start not trusting what your leader said about it.

[Frozen Angel]

@FA
1)What can leaders do with their role?
2)Who knows who gets the warrior promotion?
3)How does town prevent them from getting killed on the same night?

Once you can answer these questions it will become apparent why voting for a leader amongst everybody on D1 is a terrible idea.

why are you explaining the mechanics of our role (partially) in public or pushing me to do so by asking redundant/irrelevant questions?

It might not be wise to get a leader voted in on day 1 - sure, but I can say with absolute certainty that it sure will not clear either of us so acting like it does is scum motivated

[Frozen Angel]

charloux does kind of have a point though there has to be some mechanism to prevent scum from just shooting the leader target (i am making some leaps here because i think i have guessed how the mechanic works)

maybe the leaders already know what that is

and a protection mechanic (that we hypothetically might have or have not) will make either of us clear? It just make him more scummy for going out load about how confirmed town he is for being a leader while we both know the role has nothing to do with alignment

[Frozen Angel]

The theory is bullshit

I also think killing leaders in day 1 might not be the best idea either for

another reason

and I initially voted you before I knew you were one

but I will not stand by and let you claim in the thread you or anyone else (even if it's me) is confirmed town for the wrong reasons.

[Frozen Angel]

oh, you don't know each other? wow, then we really should not be outing the remaining ones imo

its complicated

[Frozen Angel]

I see why Charloux is thinking the way he is and I think it's towny but I wouldn't put any stock in it. I think making an assumption like that is going to be about as useful as assuming there's exactly one scum in each neighborhood.

that's exactly why I think it has to be called out to people who cant see full image

anyways

VOTE: Datisi

I can't believe I managed to catch up and even chat in real time tonight. see u all later

[Frozen Angel]

I see why Charloux is thinking the way he is and I think it's towny but I wouldn't put any stock in it. I think making an assumption like that is going to be about as useful as assuming there's exactly one scum in each neighborhood.

that's exactly why I think it has to be called out to people who cant see full image

anyways

VOTE: Datisi

I can't believe I managed to catch up and even chat in real time tonight. see u all later

y r u voting datisi

read my posts in last page

[Frozen Angel]

I get your concerns but can't town do that stuff as well?

I should be in bed but I am not so I answer. the back track specially felt unnatural. the vote felt a sudden stance change and felt fabricated. the whole agenda seems with extra intentions - I mean with another intention than solving because you cant see how he gets there. a wagon is formed he is against it and pushes hard against it and then suddenly finds a very small excuse and jumps on the wagon himself and before anything deep or meaningful happens jumps off it for no reason.

so I'm concerned for the progress he made with his mindset and I think its worth investigating

[Frozen Angel]

I can't spend time for mafia tonight. will catch up tomorrow sorry

[Frozen Angel]

I have to yet excuse myself for slacking in this game for the second night in row. But I promise to read this game and catch up tomorrow morning when I have time.

[Frozen Angel]

please tolerate me as I will catch up from page 22

I get your concerns but can't town do that stuff as well?

I should be in bed but I am not so I answer. the back track specially felt unnatural. the vote felt a sudden stance change and felt fabricated. the whole agenda seems with extra intentions - I mean with another intention than solving because you cant see how he gets there. a wagon is formed he is against it and pushes hard against it and then suddenly finds a very small excuse and jumps on the wagon himself and before anything deep or meaningful happens jumps off it for no reason.

so I'm concerned for the progress he made with his mindset and I think its worth investigating

i hate to bring up this point

actually no i don't

do you think i don't know how to fake basic progressions as scum?

Well for Its not about basic progressions. It's about mindset disconnection. you say you believe A and in the process of game you suddenly decide to be anti A. when its not scum motivated on its own, it gives opportunistic vibes all over.

like, "can't see how i got there" is a very dumb point because it's very obvious how i got there and i in fact spelled it out prior to voting charloux

> find norwee sus (ftr, he was feeling underwhelming)
> alisae offers an explanation why norwee is sus that i can vibe with
> wanna vote someone else
> the only suspicion i have on someone currently (that i feel will be beneficial by me voting there) is charloux, as i could see clear scum-motivation in voting bear there and his thoughts didn't make sense internally
> time passes, he explains more stuff about mech, admits the vote was a tilt vote, okay yeh i can buy that, i don't find him scummy anymore, unvote

like literally nothing about this is difficult to understand, you can claim you don't *buy* my progression if you want, but framing as if i didn't explain it is lol

also like, your points about me pushing against the wagon, then voting there, then unvoting - you obviously find that scummy. WHY is that scummy? what is the scum motivation behind doing that? obviously an answer is "fake solving", but you're framing it as if there's something *more* there and i don't get it

for the record - in a different game i'd probably be voting fa right now because i think her push on me stinks by far the most than what anyone else has done this game. but i have had a few people say she is Just Like That sometimes. so i'd like those people to chime in and say what they think here. thanks.

You're completely changing what I said here in a very weird way actually.

I said I found your resistance on the wagon against the votes on charleux and the sudden surrender to push the same target for another reason that you suddenly brought up suggested a mind set disconnect.

"the only suspicion i have on someone currently (that i feel will be beneficial by me voting there) is charloux" this is the part that I felt didn't blend in with rest of your posts there and its not about the progression you had to find charleux scummy. Its about how you felt the need to vote someone and you decided to push the same target that others were pushing for other reasons with what sounded like an "excuse" and a bit of an overreaction at the time for scum reading that slot. simply put, I feel like you just wanted to throw a vote and blend in to gain support.

who were those few people that told you that and when they did so that "stopped you from voting me" as you claim it

[Frozen Angel]

the whole agenda seems with extra intentions

what is my agenda here. or was, i guess.

to sound vocal, lead, blend in and gain support. You need to change vote and drop it on a hot target, even if it was the one you were vocaly in support of and against wagoning earlier so you made the 180.

It can be from town too sure, but its more scum indicative and my best lead after charleux. so I decided to vote you for now till I find something more conclusive on you or others

for the record - in a different game i'd probably be voting fa right now because i think her push on me stinks by far the most than what anyone else has done this game. but i have had a few people say she is Just Like That sometimes. so i'd like those people to chime in and say what they think here. thanks.

in my previous game with FA i felt like she was kinda right for the wrong reasons a lot, or at least her reasons were explained in a messy way

like i argued with her logic the whole game bc i felt it was wrong but then her reads ended up being correct

in this case i would say that i agree with her that your progression there feels a little off, but i thought it was more on the side of overexplained/overtelegraphed rather than underexplained

and like your defense after jumping on that with like "actually it was explained perfectly already here let me show you" does kinda fit with that so

in general people need to stop calling my reasoning "wrong" if they don't wanna spend time to decipher and analyze what I say and think the way I'm suggesting when reading my reasons as it's not the traditional scum hunting
of labeling actions towny or scummy but rather its about the pattern of actions and how the pattern comes from which mind set more likely

and I never said he underexplained. I do think and agree he over explained a bit. I feel he wanted the scum read more than he had the scumread based on the progression.

like going from 363, asking him a question and implying you find him suspicious for his actions, to 372 where you vote and reference that prior post, to 469 where you say "i already spelled out exactly why i voted you and what i want from you", to 476 where you think his answer is fine and back off

it just kinda feels like you had the whole trajectory planned in advance?

what exactly did you see in 472 that changed your mind? and throwing in the comments in 476 about agreeing with stuff others said about him being town and that you don't want to push a mech point just feels kinda weird bc why did that only now come into play? its like overexplained. idk why you felt the need to bring that stuff up, bc if it was important to your read, then why didn't it matter earlier?

Thanks. yeap that

60% pressure,

10% legit vote

, 30% not wanting to vote norwee anymore but not liking when my vote isn't active

so you yourself believe you made excuses to push that slot, but now you're basically saying there were no other strong leads to pursue there and you went there to make sure the vote is active and put pressure on slot (by 90%) yet you were alarmed when I said I think that the vote was not legit and based on your true read. why?

Ok nvm it’s unanimous.
Our 4th member is Shiro.

Shiro town by proxy of Norwee and Alisae being scum and therefore unlikely to have three scum in one clan.

[Frozen Angel]

Oh. I’m fine killing norwe if mastina is 97.5% certain they’re scum.
VOTE: Norwe

so you're being sarcastic or... and if yes why you vote. huh?

Oh. I’m fine killing norwe if mastina is 97.5% certain they’re scum.
VOTE: Norwe

why does this feel sarcastic im confused

yeah fire is actively analysing things and saying stuff out of my mouth as I'm catching up consistently. feeling good

Every game lately is like this. I try play in a way that makes me have fun and also can solve at the same time. But i always end up feeling annoyed. I didn’t even really want to sign up to this in the first place. But now i’m here and just as expected i’m first wagon. All i can do is grit my teeth and bear it. I don’t even know why i manage to continue despite feeling miserable. It’s some kind of strange stubborness that never let’s up.

i'm not really sure what you're intending to accomplish with this beyond dragging the thread mood down

this post was absolutely unnecessary. If it was genuine from them, you're just trying to annoy them and if not, you're not analysing it and instead making it even more dramatic in a sense. Dealing with ATE demands a clear heard not more wood in the fire and I find it impulsive in a sense

It's not like people are going to let mastina influence their actions or read her posts.

didnt bell vote norwee explicitly because of mastina's read? i don't think this is necessarily true

Bell voted Norwee because mastina told Bell they have like some made up number of what, 98.something% that's wrong? From what I read it doesn't look like the read itself influenced Bell but rather mastina's confidence.

When I think of the read influencing someone reading, I think of how Kitty voted Norwee, whom literally said that the case, aka the explanation of the read, caused them to vote Norwee.

But I mean ya at the end of the day they did influence 2 people to vote but when she is going to need to rally a total of 11 villagers if she wants to vote out a scum!Norwee that is aligned with me. 3 out of 2, kinda small, ngl.
Now, that's not taking into consideration what our alignment ACTUALLY is. Maybe mastina will get her wagon because scum will seize the moment to try to get a town!norwee killed. In a way that's less villagers required for her to kill a villager, so that makes her attempt at killing Norwee easier ig.

This post is wierding me out talking about how wagons can off someone and numbers and all that. why not focusing on the votes and reasonings and instead on the ability of players to rally others against another player?

i've had bad experiences with high emotion over stuff like this and i didn't want a repeat

maybe i could've phrased it better but i'm tired sue me

I feel honesty here and it explains the impulsiveness I mentioned earlier

[Frozen Angel]

catboi defense of norwee's ATE and staying focused on just the ATE and meta with clear reasoning feels genuine.

i would argue that actually makes it worse? norwee's reasoning feels really thin to me - it's there but it doesn't really feel like it was a genuine thought and not just an after the fact justification, and i feel like scum would go to more effort to at least look like there's some solving happening

so i think a follow with thin reasoning is worse than one without reasoning

I don't know the thing is I've played a bunch with norwee so I don't necessarily expect deep reasoning from him, at least early on. I have almost definitely mis-elimmed him for reasons similar to this.

I don't think this is a fake progression, so at the very least makes me wanna listen to their norwee read, even if it might be from a scum in defense of a town who made ATE. but I lean town there too

Has Shiro done anything in the PT?

why no comment about the active population?

---

reading mastina's post about alisae and in page 26, I can see that she is really thinking about what is she saying, even if not all is directly about the game itself. I like her cross referencing and can follow what is she saying/conclusions she is making. she is giving me a headache but I think she is solving and not faking it on first impressions. and I hate her linked reads and partially not explained read drops.

---

I need to Iso and recheck how kittytacky wagon formed cause Im not sure why its getting momentum at this time when they are not present themself

[Frozen Angel]

ISO of kitty tacky I can see why the slot is scum read and I share the notion

The Charloux slip case makes sense so far but I'll keep reading. FOS: Charloux

the fos seems too vanilla and opportunistic and then on same post made jump on char wagon when they saw the titus vote for some reason? if you think it was a scum slip then you would vote right at start what was about the titus vote significant there?

them they are convinced by case on norwee and jumps on next popular wagon

---- so kitty votes at this point:
[4] KittyTacky: catboi, Cephrir, fireisredsir, Datisi
----

This wagon was legit when created and I can see the real push on it for solving in general

I wont go further in kitty iso yet as I wanna read rest of game as a whole and not iso first.

[Frozen Angel]

This post is wierding me out talking about how wagons can off someone and numbers and all that. why not focusing on the votes and reasonings and instead on the ability of players to rally others against another player?

Partially because I'm demonstrating what a scum thought process from me would look like?
-Bell's "reasoning" for voting Norwee is that mastina had a 97.something% read. It looked like the reasoning for the vote was that they were rallied by mastina. That is the reasoning at the time.
-Kitty's "reasoning" for voting Norwee was they supposedly looked at mastina's case and went "yep, this is what I want to do." They were rallied by mastina. That is the reasoning at the time.

FA the quote chain is a line that was snipped out of context.

If we were scum together I would probably just tell Norwee in a private topic to just not engage, just makes more sense not to. It's not like people are going to let mastina influence their actions or read her posts. Engaging doesn't do anything, if anything, probably makes mastina look more credible, and wastes posts.

It probably reads weirdly because the post was written about me speculating about what me and norwee would do as scum.

I'm saying that maybe mastina's Norwee push is the kind of thing I feel like scum would jump to like dogs to a bone and that's what ended up happening with the 2 players I mentioned? I'm basically saying that's what is happening if she is town. Mastina is the best flip in the game from my pov.

that makes more sense now.

Its so hard to catch up to this amount of text as I've been away for 48 hours and I barely remember anything from before so I'm skimming a lot of text to get a gist of game state and analyse what I see so sorry for not finding the anchor of that post on first sight.

regardless, mastina is being so lazy with properly casing some of her reads but the ones she is explaining shows she is actually thinking about details. she also explained in some short words her meta take on norwee even without examples so I find her analytical at that stage of game and it keep repeating about different reads of her at that point that makes me wonder if it can be fakable by scum mastina that consistently.

I was more suspicious of bells jumping in on it than mastina herself when you know that's just not the way it works. they even sounded sarcastic there and it felt like they jumpying to mock or out of some sort of ego? I cant explain this properly I think but it felt like bell saw the mastina post and went like "yeah why not, gotta push someone anyway so let mastina take the blame for it." kinda vote

[Frozen Angel]

so you yourself believe you made excuses to push that slot, but now you're basically saying there were no other strong leads to pursue there and you went there to make sure the vote is active and put pressure on slot (by 90%) yet you were alarmed when I said I think that the vote was not legit and based on your true read. why?

because it still was in part a legit read and denying that as being legit is incorrect?

also s_s said he knows you, but he said it in the hood so

who denied it was legit?

if it was we would have a different conversation. I'm mainly saying it was a weak read to justify the 180. which is basically what you said too with those numbers. I can now understand the motivation you could have had with a town mindset to do the turn with that explaination

I'm more concerned now about your reaction to getting voted about it when you also admit it was a weak read and that you called out the vote instead of agreeing that the switch was based on a weak analysis and for the pressure /keeping vote active

[Frozen Angel]

thanks for the tip. I guess I will continue catching up tomorrow evening/night however. this already took an hour of me and I'm still way behind.

regardless, mastina is being so lazy with properly casing some of her reads but the ones she is explaining shows she is actually thinking about details. she also explained in some short words her meta take on norwee even without examples so I find her analytical at that stage of game and it keep repeating about different reads of her at that point that makes me wonder if it can be fakable by scum mastina that consistently.

It is and it is something that is potentially happening in this mafia game.

why you think she is faking her reads?

[Frozen Angel]

I'm more concerned now about your reaction to getting voted about it when you also admit it was a weak read and that you called out the vote instead of agreeing that the switch was based on a weak analysis and for the pressure /keeping vote active

i guess it was that, even thought i knew myself that my vote was not a super strong one or one that intends to kill charloux, *despite that* i felt that you were mischaracterizing it or being opportunistic or wtv

my memory is shit and it's past midnight here, so if you want a more specific answer, please link what you're talking about in the past and what i need to respond to

I get your concerns but can't town do that stuff as well?

I should be in bed but I am not so I answer. the back track specially felt unnatural. the vote felt a sudden stance change and felt fabricated. the whole agenda seems with extra intentions - I mean with another intention than solving because you cant see how he gets there. a wagon is formed he is against it and pushes hard against it and then suddenly finds a very small excuse and jumps on the wagon himself and before anything deep or meaningful happens jumps off it for no reason.

so I'm concerned for the progress he made with his mindset and I think its worth investigating

i hate to bring up this point

actually no i don't

do you think i don't know how to fake basic progressions as scum?

I basically accused you of testing the waters. said you found an excuse (= weak legit reasoning) to jump and made a 180 to just wagon and that I could not follow the progress you wanted to make there.

yet your response to this post was not about your intention to put pressure or about how you wanted to keep your vote active despite it being a weak read of yours.

completely opposite of that, you said you know how to fake basic progression as scum and in this and next post you were like that it was a solid legit change of heart on that slot and the 180.

In other words, you reacted to my read with "my progression was solid so I fos you" instead of "I agree that it was a weak jump (with a weak legit reason, but the main reasons were - it was for pressure - it was to keep vote active" and I find the reaction odd for that reason

[Frozen Angel]

why you think she is faking her reads?

My understanding of scum!mastina is she takes about what she knows about people and tries to twist the truth to suit whatever it is she wants.

If I remember correctly, that's just mastina in all situations regardless of her alignment.

but guess others can meta read her better with fresh expriences

[Frozen Angel]

completely opposite of that, you said you know how to fake basic progression as scum and in this and next post you were like that it was a solid legit change of heart on that slot and the 180.

In other words, you reacted to my read with "my progression was solid so I fos you" instead of "I agree that it was a weak jump (with a weak legit reason, but the main reasons were - it was for pressure - it was to keep vote active" and I find the reaction odd for that reason

oh, there's actually two different things happening here

i do think my progression is solid - or at least that is makes sense, even when you account the fact that the read wasn't super strong and i didn't actually want to kill charloux at that time. like, i think despite there not being a super strong scumread from me on charloux, i think you (and anyone else) should be able to see how i got there

but my "i know how to fake a basic progression as scum" was meant to be a "i don't understand why you're finding me scummy for this". more specifically, you said that you can't see how i got there, and you tie that in for me being scummy - but my argument is that *just because* you cannot see how i got there, does not mean my thought process is fake. i felt there is an undertone in your posts that said "i can't tell how datisi got there, ergo he doesn't know how to fake a progression, ergo there is no progression and he's scum acting oppotrunistically" -- and i think that logic doesn't follow simply because i do know how to fake a progression as scum

and the fact that you went "datisi is scum because no progression" as opposed to "i can't follow the progression, maybe i just don't see it" felt oppotrunistically scummy to me

But they aren't two different things

Again to clarify, I saw how you got there with your reasoning. that was the 10% legit part and I see that no arguments. I don't think that I can still see how you got there "mentally" and it was all I was saying there too.

You've been overexplaining for a 180 switch that was meant to be a pressure/temporrary vote then. and I could not see any proper follow up on it is what I meant.

I also never used that first wording that you had no progression. I explicitly used semantics closer to the second sentence and was saying I can't follow a progression so its probably faked. even not that. I was saying that I find the way you dropped the scum read (what we call progression) gave away signs that made it look like a set up

" the back track specially felt unnatural. the vote felt a sudden stance change and felt fabricated. the whole agenda seems with extra intentions - I mean with another intention than solving because you cant see how he gets there. a wagon is formed he is against it and pushes hard against it and then suddenly finds a very small excuse and jumps on the wagon himself and before anything deep or meaningful happens jumps off it for no reason." my exact words

so I was basically saying that I got the feeling that the vote was forcefully setup and was not with a proper mind set, it felt the mind set was set after the decision to vote was made cause the reason felt weak enough to look like an excuse - yet it was over explained. and it didn't mesh in well with what should have been the mind set a few pages back where you were against the wagon there in first place.

then I used this exact wording:

"so I'm concerned for the progress he made with his mindset and I think its worth investigating"

I'm concerned for the progress he made - not that I think there was no progress

so the reaction you made was extremely our pf proportions regarding a true take from your pressure vote that its legitimacy was 10% by your own wording

[Frozen Angel]

regardless I'll continue my catching up and the rest tomorrow evening

[Frozen Angel]

I think I'd rather see Frozen Angel produce more content on other things

if you have any specific questions shoot

[Frozen Angel]

me and catboi would be a good starting place

I am not interested at all in sorting you "for you know why" in day 1 and will purposefully deny doing that as its a waste of time and energy in this phase. I in general felt good about your analytic mindset but I haven't been paying deep attention for behavioral consistency tells.

I have a town read on catboi for the way they went against norwe wagon and the ate push in pure analytical and extremely consistent style. I liked his posts earlier to charluex

But, Dr Worm wasn’t a really doctor. So you’re not really scrrrd.

SHARP PENGUIN. DO YOU WANT TO VOTE SOMEONE IN OUR CLAN TODAY?

STOP.GIVING.INFO.WHEN.WE.DONT.KNOW.MAJORITY.OF.SETUP.
VOTE: SCRRRRBEAR

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

But you had no problem with claiming your claim right away so why are you now acting like it's a bad thing?

especially this.

I haven't read pages 28 (?) forward I think and will do so later

[Frozen Angel]

I also have a spicy scum lean on something - smart for calling out shiro and ignoring active players, and occasional line dropping without adding anything to game to progress it for themself or rest

have a good night all

[Frozen Angel]

based on what I saw till page 28 again

[Frozen Angel]

I am not interested at all in sorting you "for you know why" in day 1 and will purposefully deny doing that as its a waste of time and energy in this phase.

wait what?

I'm not gonna focus on your slot today - town reading or scum reading your slot makes no difference for me in this day phase so I want to wait for the game to progress more.

[Frozen Angel]

what I meant by I didn't read it is I didn't read all teh wall posting in depth, what I did read is that it seemed like they were both pushing each other for being at arm's length, which makes me think they're aligned with each other

huh?

why can't one be a town and one scum in this scenario?

[Frozen Angel]

like you're saying they seem to be either solving each other of faking it

why one cant be faking it only?

[Frozen Angel]

my attempt to continue catching up

VOTE: val

Datisi's never scum here btw.

The vote's wrong since it's on town.

But Datisi is conftown for this series of posting and the vote.

confscum or conftown and why

Conftown. Datisi's a major wagon, but Datisi has no interest in appeasing the players voting him, or being survivalistic, or really trying to actually fight--instead, he's sorting and pushing for who he thinks is scum.

The Val vote has basically no momentum, but the Datisi wagon does--a Val vote does Datisi no favors.

you would have miscleared datisi in like every scum game he's played recently then, thats p shallow reasoning

you would have miscleared datisi in like every scum game he's played recently then, thats p shallow reasoning

My explanation might be flawed to make it seem that way but it very much is not. Datisi is town for two dozen reasons. Everything he is doing is town. It just is never scum here.

I'm observing something in this interaction and that is how fire made a direct shot and mastina took it and blend. Let me rephrase that, fire removed the foundation of mastinas read, and mastina didnt react to that and instead went back on her explanations of a read she feels about and "probably described bad"

It felt so genuine from mastina

{Norwee, Alisae, Something_Smart} feels like a solid 3/5..

Btw I hold to this being a true scumbloc no matter what to be honest.

I don't have nearly the same level of certainty about elsewhere.

But I individually think this is Norwee's scumgame;
I individually think this is Alisae's scumgame;
I think that Norwee and Alisae are very specifically scum together;
Something_Smart isn't directly tied to them per se but I individually do think he's scum (sadly) and that his stances fit as scum with Norwee and Alisae.

I also scumread Titus but I'm honestly not sure if she fits as scum with them, it might be possible? But something about saying {Alisae, Norwee, Something_Smart, Titus} as 4/5 feels too easy, feels too surface-level, feels too shallow to be real. I don't have any better ideas, mind you, but better ideas can come from future day phases as we progress.

Norwee is hard null for me. I dislike the wagon that was made on the slot for the direction of pressure that players who voted applied on norwee (instead of giving the slot something to react to or answer to that would help reading it better)

Alisae feels too pushy in multiple directions at the same time and while that is a town solving attidue, it makes me uneasy. I was expecting ali to have a more clear path to push at this point in day after all water testing he had. Also that post in last page about donn and catboi being same alignment felt too conclusive and out of nowhere.

something_smart - at least till this point of game that I read can be very much scum and I vibe there totally

Like, do you think you're out of scum range right now? Because so far I think you're in the middle of both your ranges.

no, no i don't think so. though, out of curiosity - if i had answered "yes, i do think i'm outside my scumrange here", then what would you do?

ftr, my poke towards you wasn't meant as a "catboi *should* have a read on me by now," it was a "i hoped he'd have a read on me by now, as that will potentially help me read him."

anyway, i like the reasoning for kittytacky being scum. upon my skim, i skipped that post because big post, but when i got back to it... it really did not say anything, huh. and the fact that he took the time to photoshop my avatar onto a clam (and photoshop it kind of *well*, considering the white pixels are barely visible), rather than, you know, do things in the game... yeah. it kind of reminds me of that one thing i did in smuggler's, where i also tried to be funny by posting an image instead of like, y'know, doing things. also, screw you for making me remember that game.

VOTE: kittytacky

after i eat, will get to isoing people to try to make sense of my weaker reads, and actually give reason for my stronger ones.

interested in why mastina's so certain she's not misreading me here (despite fire specifically saying her reasoning is flawed - which i do agree with)

.

Kitty said nothing in their entire ISO till that point not just the big post actually. but how is not being involved in game from a "scum mindset" and cant be just from a town mindset that doesnt know what to do/dont feel like spending time in game/is lazy?

the call out on mastina here is actually intresting too. knowing mastina "feels" he is town, he mentions to her how her reasoning is flawed as he also noticed the foundational break fire did.

I think its more likely from a town mind set? yet it has this slight manipulative attidue mixed in it (to say yeah I'm thinking about your read on me truely even if I'm happy you're town reading me) which is not an inhernetly scummy manipulation

what matters is if he followed up on this later or asked similar questions or not.

[Frozen Angel]

if i had to vote right now it would be for datisi but i don't have to vote

why did this post exist and how did your thoughts evolve since then?

this means you ISOed cephir right?

yet you still had nothing about the slot and it was total null for you in your next post?

I do not have that passive yet. My PM mentioned nothing about leaders but left open the possibility they exist.

My thinking (which is now likely wrong), each PT had one apprentice, one warrior, one protector and one ?. I am a protector myself.

would you be okay elaborating on what you mean by this

because i'm not sure if you mean protector in the sense of role or some mechanical thing

[Flavor] - PROTECTOR of StarClan

[Part 1] - Text

[Part 2] - Text

Alignment

Confirm text

Titus not knowing "protector of starclan" is just the default town and assuming its a special thing some (including them have) is somewhat of a town tell.

anyways leaders are a different thing and are for the neighborhood clans such as river clan etc etc and rest seems to be apprentices if I'm not mistaking.

i don't care about mechanics

or more precisely, i can't read alignment from mechanical arguments

but what about her post itself and not the mechanical argument. I mean what about her knowing/not knowing/acting as she doesnt know things?

it seems dismissive to say that and not look into her posts

Well, since it's coming up for other people, I'll bring up I also had to step away from the site last Nov so I haven't played in almost a year.

Re: Bell/Datisi, now that I've stepped away, I'm less focused on their interaction. I still think there's something off there.

UNVOTE:

mastina's case on Alisae/Norwee is very compelling. I feel like her arguments on Alisae are stronger so it's interesting that she's more sure on Norwee. VOTE: Norwee

well for one, I've been basiclaly away for like 4 years + with exceptions of 2 3 games in middle? so it doesnt matter xd

yet this post is kinda bad. " Bell/Datisi, now that I've stepped away,

I'm less focused on their interaction. I still think there's something off there.

"
why did you step away if you think something is off there?

mastina's case on Alisae/Norwee is very compelling.

why?

I feel like her arguments on Alisae are stronger

why?

and you feel that and vote Norwee cause mastina is?

mastina's case on Alisae/Norwee is very compelling. I feel like her arguments on Alisae are stronger so it's interesting that she's more sure on Norwee. VOTE: Norwee

so given this, why are you voting norwee and not alisae, if you think the case on ali is stronger?

Mistyx gets a frozen angel pat pat

mastina's case on Alisae/Norwee is very compelling. I feel like her arguments on Alisae are stronger so it's interesting that she's more sure on Norwee. VOTE: Norwee

so given this, why are you voting norwee and not alisae, if you think the case on ali is stronger?

Because that's where the pressure is currently, and if they're both scum then does the order matter?

Thats always a bold assumption to be right on two scum reads and a town mind set always pushes for their strongest read, when eliminating is not even being persued in day.

high sus

-----
"[5] NorwegianboyEE: mastina, Something_Smart, Mistyx,

Bell

,

Marashu

[4] Datisi: Dannflor, Frozen Angel,

NorwegianboyEE

,

PenguinPower

"
votes at vc 1.3, I'm not sure how the bolded players jumped on the two wagons with momentum and I feel like their point of pressure might have been intentional.

I remember Bell literally voting norwee with 97% post of mastina as refrence without checking anything of norwee there. How Marashu jumped on it also felt wrong
then there are norwee and PP voting datisi after me and I don't recall how they got there which can be a bad sign cause I was just reading and catching up since there (well starting last night)

[Frozen Angel]

This, also is something tht is going to be hard to explain without getting into everything about his playstyle but in the simplest possible terms, he's involved and has actual thoughts about the game ad is trying to figure things out. By his own description his scum playstyle is "basically treading water". I realize he's consciously altering his playstyle this game because normally he never gives this many reads or is this proactive as either alignment but I lean toward believing it's real and town-motivated, because he's self-aware of how his own meta is perceived and is able to play into that as scum, and I think he'd be less likely to try a playstyle ateration as that alignment. There's also little things about who he's choosing to give reads on and the stuff he's saying about being paranoid of the people he likes solving with that rings very real to me.

this was about SS btw. I wanna know what posts gave you such impressions. can you be more specific about how you got there?

that vote was aweful

VOTE: Marashu

good vote from norwee

I do not have that passive yet. My PM mentioned nothing about leaders but left open the possibility they exist.

My thinking (which is now likely wrong), each PT had one apprentice, one warrior, one protector and one ?. I am a protector myself.

I think this is town also but I don't have to like it

yeah this is too raw from SS

also i don't think you really have to worry about the post restriction, you have 13 posts lol. just play normally and you're never gonna hit 200 posts in a day

getting more engaged is like the ideal result of a wagon, thats kinda the goal, to see how the person responds to pressure. and i do think your response feels townier than your response to pressure in turing test

VOTE: marashu

fire is my closest thing to a town read at the moment

I'm struggling to adapt to this post restriction.

I'm legit trying but it's hard. I also never played a large theme before.

So like, are you just lying?
Because I don't believe you considering at a cursory look at your games where you don't even break past 200 posts in COMPLETED GAMES and we're only in d1.. Like, there are players in here that post way way more but you're the one that's struggling??? Like, 200 is such a lenient post cap I don't see how anyone can struggle as long as they show some restraint and like, actually post with purpose.

good post from alisae

and then I saw the fire I was waiting for from him, putting kitty on other side of the boxing ring and pushing pushing pushing

How are these questions real things being asked???

You think you are sheeping something that makes sense and I think you are using that to justify hiding behind mastina.

But those are the only two options. "was it from a town mind set" or "was it from a scum mind set"

its on accuser to explain why they are accusing, so why you think they were hiding behind mastina?

lmao ok I’m done talking to you goodbye
VOTE: kittyTacky

umm ... ok?

pedit: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13532176 based on this vc if you didnt lets check with mod for possible mod errors?

[Frozen Angel]

this means you ISOed cephir right?

i isoed everyone (other than the people i already had a strong read on)

if someone ended up in null despite that, that means they are null to me

yeah but you talked about your other null reads.

there was absolutely nothing to talk about relating caphir?

[Frozen Angel]

Anyway, I am curious to hear a deeper take on some of the things I've said in 261 and 279.

Spoiler:

153 I hate. The posture (facesit, are either of these words even the right word) between SS and Bell just reads wolf.

167 also just reads like scumposting...

Honestly even the vote on bell now that I am reading the context around it...

WindClan activity seems weirdge for them as well
They wanted to go after Misty for 175.
They also said they don't see any reason behind the bear's reads.
He asks Norwee if he feels that he is on the same page I am and here I am going ??? because like what kind of question is that???

Is this scum or am I reading a lot of the things he does as just scummy?

I'm not sure I buy bell's explanation, and I'm also reading an twinge of complaint in SS's 31 regarding the mod having potentially screwed over dark forest - and I don't understand why there would be "a hard time parsing this from any alignment." If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

Nobody else seems to have had any trouble, and, while yes, I can see how being simultaneously a member of Starclan + a neighbourhood clan might be a source of potential confusion; I am wondering how it is possible to confirm in reply to the role PM ones "role and alignment" whilst that confusion remains. Surely you sort that out there and then while confirming?

What am I missing?

I don't understand why you hate it, but i do understand that you hate it. He made a conjecture based on the info he had(Like i did), nothing more nothing less.

And I don't think confirming role + alignment rules out clan confusion; it's usually easy to tell alignment from coloring + lack of partners/obvious scum info, even if you don't fully understand the factions or the wincon.

It may be obvious from the colouring + lack of partners that your role pm is one belonging to the uninformed majority, but if you were in possession of such, you would also have (and I assume it's acceptable to quote directly now it is given publicly) the wincon given to starclan -

"You and all other members of the protectors of StarClan win when all Dark Forest cats have been eliminated."

- which is patently clear on the issue bell expressed confusion about.

Shading others while boasting about the knowledge town should have, passively implying he is town - check

That's my hypothesis - that scum!bell was trying to replicate that selfmeta of 'derping about set up early game and asking the most basic questions that are usually also “town slippy”' without access to a critical piece of information - how the wincon was presented to starclan; and thus failing to realise there was zero, none, nada ambiguity there to 'town slip' over. I don't buy the post-sample explanation that starclan!bell thought "dark forest cats" was some larger descriptor for two or more scum clans without also believing that starclan was some larger descriptor for the town clans, and thus windclan, thunderclan, etc to be pure; and that's never going to pass review. It's nonsensical.

The hypothesis makes sense, but overselling it is scummy imo

I can easily see town!SS realising this situation has only arisen because of the lack of a publicly posted sample PM, and thus suffer some sort of second-hand guilt on behalf of the dark forest for having a member outed so early over what is arguably a mod mistake, but why defend him now?

Answering his on question at the end but not forgetting some more shading - check

From a perspective of someone who doesn't know the history between Alisae and norwegian this feels pretty iffy to me.

I am without a doubt the best player on the table to read the player???
- I have lots of games with him. We've been town together, we've been scum together, and we've been oppositely aligned before.
- He LITERALLY came out of his way to play with me. It makes sense, it's been awhile and I just came back from a 1 year vacation.
- I have an understanding of how he is as a person based on things he how he has acted before and past experiences. We've hydra'd before and that gave me a good idea into his thought processes at the time.
- I have a neighborhood with him. In this neighborhood, he is posting his thoughts. I have access to these thoughts.

Like, what is there to be iffy about???

That's why i said from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the history between you two.
I can see you both white-knighting him as well as pocketing him.

This was hell posting on the phone

it is white-knighting regardless of the history. but is it cause of a confident read, an attempt to pocket or to protect a buddy is the real question.

People in wind clan can probably tell how much ali engaged with norwee if any?

yet I dont think it was scum - scum

@FrozenAngel: why aren’t you scum this game?

cause I received a town role pm from mod

what kind of questioning is that?

Busy cookies.

Sorry for vanishing. I learned i passed my entrance exams for drama School and I didnt have time. I am starting next week,wll participate for now but if i dont manage to have free time i moght sadly replace out:( Shame it was a wonderful player list.

Hugs and cookies and congratulations!

The strength of Alisae's scumread on Val is overblown, in a way that I feel indicates that Val caught Alisae and Norwee's interaction being scum-scum for what it is.

There is absolutly no way Alisae and Norwee interaction were scum-scum

great minds and all that

[Frozen Angel]

I dont have reliable net connection tonight. will try catching up tomorrow again instead

[Frozen Angel]

I am both here and not here. I know lurking was never my style but I'm forced to lurk most of the time cause of real life pressures if I wanna play mafia nowadays. I sincerely apologize for that.

so with that I gave up in reading all thread and instead will skim some players ISO to make reads. first what I think is top wagon?

I'm not that appeased to vote mastina. what I see from mastina in this game is she putting thought behind what she is writing and actually making logical infenerces, even if its filled with lots of other stuff and emotions.I actually got the impression that she is evaluating stuff and not just throwing totally random stuff out there. mastina pushing for linked reads on ali and norwee after her initial read list material was a bit pushy over shallow reasoning but yet I see that genuine in a weird way as she got it based on something that was actually thrown in game yet I believe a scum mastina would throw completely random reads in and call them out on meta or random crap to look like she is doing the work in chaos (that's at least my impression of her playstyle and not necessarily truth)

then she has posts like 1178 too that I absolutely resent but I'm not sure if its AI here at all as she is not trying to make it look more than what it is? (the meta read on me)

What I know is people are very different when playing this game. My impression is mastina is trying to be transparent but fails to lay out logic and ends up repeating her final impressions as solidified reads naturally and regardless of her alignment. What I feel ok about is her attempt in making reads based on events/posts/actual data in game over some random crap sent from international space station or something like that if you know what I mean.

[Frozen Angel]

Okay,
so
I'll be real here.

My meta on Mastina is basically:
Will Mastina have a meltdown?
Y: Scum.
N: Town.

They had a meltdown.

I'm fine with this. For the day.
VOTE: Mastina

Ah, I see what you're saying for plot reasons one kitty leaves the clan/is evil.
While Titus is the good rogue kitty that comes in to shore up the clan that had a loss/betrayal.
Makes sense from a plot point perspective.

...I forgot what Ydra said about this. *shrug* I'm sure someone will dig it up.

and one of the reasons I hate mastina wagon are some of votes on it

I find this vote kinda opportunistic and the reasoning bad

No action or reaction is town or scum indicative on its own. to just scumread a slot based on their emotional state after all the stuff that was said that you could try to make logical inferneces from is lazy in a way that a scum mindset waiting to jump would want

[Frozen Angel]

We of the river clan* have reached a consensus.
Vote Mastina.

*it’s the royal we.

there were no discussions in river clan about mastina.

Why would you act like its a general conscious?

[Frozen Angel]

and now after checking I see that this behavior repeated by bell lets go over the votes:

VOTE: datisi?

VOTE: Mistyx

*stares gently at Datisi*
I’m not sorry.

VOTE: Mastina

Oh. I’m fine killing norwe if mastina is 97.5% certain they’re scum.
VOTE: Norwe

VOTE: Datisi

*FOS Mastina*

Nevermind. It fits. Nothing to be paranoid about there.

VOTE: T3

Sure.

Okay,
so
I'll be real here.

My meta on Mastina is basically:
Will Mastina have a meltdown?
Y: Scum.
N: Town.

They had a meltdown.

I'm fine with this. For the day.
VOTE: Mastina

Ah, I see what you're saying for plot reasons one kitty leaves the clan/is evil.
While Titus is the good rogue kitty that comes in to shore up the clan that had a loss/betrayal.
Makes sense from a plot point perspective.

...I forgot what Ydra said about this. *shrug* I'm sure someone will dig it up.

Why is this guy so easily convinced of everything? even stuff his suspects say?!

The vote movement is all over the place and chaotic and most votes had no context. he votes mastina and has fos on her throughout the day without explaining much about it yet instantly jumps on norwee when mastina says she is 97% sure norwee is scum. and then responds to alisae this:

I don’t understand Alisse well, but currently. I’m neutral to lean town on them, I think.
Their engagement style conflicts with what I think scum would do. But I can’t quite articulate why.

I am going to have to ask you to move your vote that is currently on Norwee. If you trust mastina's 97.5% read on Norwee, then you should be trusting me 100% tr on Norwee as the player who is probably the best player at the table at reading him, ESPECIALLY because I have a hood with him.

I don’t trust either of you tho.

but we trust mastina because?????????

I meant, I trust neither you nor Mastina. I dn't have to trust someone to vote with them.
Infact I almost never vote with someone because I trust them.

But if mastina was hard for why would you trust what they say in first place?

and then bell moves vote and plays on other heated players here and there without asking questions to sort them

and votes T3 cause asked by alisae without any questions out of nowhere just to jump back on mastina again?

I can't follow this mindset progress from a town perspective. It seems incredibly inconsistent in development

and there are these posts:

What if I’m scum? Then technically, I’m right.

@FrozenAngel: why aren’t you scum this game?

that are pretty bold joking and is a thing town would be way less comfortable saying in general. and the questions that have 0 value in evaluation (that's just an example he asked same kind of questions multiple times)

VOTE: bell

pedit: will respond to you in next post

[Frozen Angel]

I don't really agree with Danfloor that they need a solid scum read to approach the game as they do. Though maybe they're more subtle about it but I can think of a few instances where they felt slightly more natural as town then they've been here.
I was largely mollified once they got back and walled but it looks like Catboi actualy read through them and tried to see the motivation there.
I don't think "contribution" or "tactical posting" is exactly hitting it for me, simply because yeah we could all be supporting the game better than we inevitably end up doing. Dann was on my radar then he got off of it. It's noted though.

I think the confidence Catboi is showing is appropriate to their post about Dann, I.e., they feel that of the players available they think it's the surest bet but it's Day 1 and so it's not actually a very sure bet, so I can see where their placement is and it doesn't make a total lack of sense to me. I do think they've been a bit more clear than I'm used to, but it's not terribly clear why that is, but I tend to think their catboi is a different playstyle and I dunno if they do it purposely or I just don't understand it but I think it slightly controls for the approach.

It has occurred to me that Alisae hasn't played in a full year and their approach this game doesn't really reflect that at all, which is pretty confusing to me. They're confident they can read Norwe better than anyone else, but Norwe has been playing an additional year of mafia while they haven't. It doesn't make sense to me, but I actually don't think it's scummy. Just weird. I'm not sure how much I should be taking of their previous play from the last year, but it reminds me more of their town play if anything, given their conviction being stronger as town (up to fake claiming masons with somebody), I see what people are suspecting about informed Alisae going all in for cred, but I'm not sure that it's in character for Alisae to do that, I don't really have enough data.

Frozen Angel, I'm just genuinely confused about, they feel very cookie cutter, it's focused, there's nothing especially wrong with it, but I don't see creativity or spontaneity in it yet. This kind of read I always tend to be wrong on and a spade is simply a spade but flag waving is always a little odd to me.

@T3, hello fellow Cat. I'm a cat.

1090 was his good post from earlier actually cause its very analytical in general. his null read on your slot is really conservative here ad I don't think its alignment indicative. his take about you being confident despite being away for a year makes small sense though but the confusion about your confidence is not a confusion about your alignment and it doesn't scream as he is trying to solve your slot for it. in other words a scum could also be surprised by a town confidence on someone else's meta if they were away for a while too

His read on me is also really conservative there. small shading without referencing anything specific - keeping it low and just about feelings?

Idk that post can still be genuine and it can be genuine regardless of alignment for most part

My neutral read on Norwe is dead. Long live a town lean.

This is not explained well so I'm not sure what gave them the progression on norwee read.

If norwee was a natural read why did you vote the slot with mastina in first place?

[Frozen Angel]

I'm semi-inclined to town read Mastina anyway because they aren't making excuses for why they aren't posting or having a breakdown even though I know it's old data and I think they got over it.
Though their reads are a tad weird. I'd get into it, but if I did then Mastina and I would get in a back and forth about Mastina.
Nobody wants that except Mastina.

See: opportunism.

and 700 posts later you just decided to vote the slot cause they had an emotional melt down and not because of the wagon on the slot and possible heat there?

can you show me what is that meta read of yours based on? I mean show me previous games you based that read on

[Frozen Angel]

even though you can't possibly make a meta read based on emotional meltdown in general. we all are humans. unless if you're saying mastina will never genuinely have a meltdown and is always faking it which is a pretty weird take that makes absolutely no sense

[Frozen Angel]

@FA in response to "why is Bell chsnging votes so much" i don’t think this specific point is scummy. Changing votes is overall pretty townie imo because it shows a lot of re-evaluation and such. I wouldn’t clear them from being scum but i don’t think this particular point is scummy.

I didn't say why he changed votes so much.

Its about who he voted and how he did it not about his jumping like he is playing hot potato

I cant see what a town!he would achieve with the votes that he did that went completely against his beliefs at times and some feel made up in various ways?

[Frozen Angel]

That’s a trajectory fail Angel.
Attention was slightly moving away from Mastina/people were digesting the T3 thing.
I thought about it and decided that I’d seen enough from Mastina to act on it.
I could be wrong. But I telegraphed it and they tripped it anyway. There’s a reason people have meta on Mastina related to this and it’s largely because they have issues with flexibility.
Literally said it in thread and they did it anyway.

But what if a scum you had more use from having a vote on mastina

Lets say mastina is town and T3 is scum

or mastina is scum and t3 is town

in first scenario you would be saving partner pushing a heated slot instead
in second scenario you would be distancing from partner while another slot is getting heated in parallel

and if both are town you just will be looked as someone trying to solve by going after the other side of the current tide?

so plenty of reasons for a scum mind set to make that move at that point

what about that reason has to do with mastina posts anyway. you voted mastina cause of her melt down and nothing new or old and nothing about her posts/logic so at that time you got no new information to make that decision suddenly based on?

[Frozen Angel]

Mastina having a meltdown isn't really the problem. It's that they are not changing their reads, not responding to a lot of very valid arguments that is questioning their conclusions, and then having a meltdown.
Which combined is so bleeping scummy.

how is being stubborn/wrong translating to being scum? whats the scum mind set behind that stance?

Why do you think the melt down was faked? and if it was genuine how is that alignment indicative?

[Frozen Angel]

We of the river clan* have reached a consensus.
Vote Mastina.

*it’s the royal we.

there were no discussions in river clan about mastina.

Why would you act like its a general conscious?

"royal we" implies he actually just means himself but yes it was confusing

i actually didn't mind bell's mastina vote; i think he is coming at it from a meta perspective, not saying meltdowns are always scummy. i think he and norwe have had the best mastina votes as they take mastina into account. many of the other votes are just voting mastina for being mastina and maybe they'll get lucky this game.

Is royal we an English term for me?

what is that meta based on though. can't let people just say a random reason and then tag it with meta and not be held accountable for it.

i don't think that meta read is real. assuming someone is always having a melt down as scum even if they are the most dramatic person possible is such a fallacy read if its a true read in first place.

[Frozen Angel]

even though you can't possibly make a meta read based on emotional meltdown in general. we all are humans. unless if you're saying mastina will never genuinely have a meltdown and is always faking it which is a pretty weird take that makes absolutely no sense

Okay. I know you’re excited to do some debating(tm) but this is a poor interpretation and argument.
Which is fair I’m fairly vague. But like, no.

I wanna drive Mastina up so that they at least claim and decide from there.
I’m at work right now so I’ll respond to some of this later.
But I’m surprised this is the direct Angel decided to go and sort of disappointed honestly since they kinda talked up their method and then they hit me lol.

Well I'm just trying to understand how you connect the dots in your head to make the conclusions you made if I'm interpreting your moves wrong or are describing them wrong help me see your intentions and where you were coming from.

so take your time but I wanna know what that meta read is based on

[Frozen Angel]

Mastina is actively interpreting info in a way to fit his reads.
I kinda emulated that as well for my read on him.

show me instances of this

[Frozen Angel]

and again how that cant be from a town mind set

anyone assumes they are correct and will first try to fit in new information in their initial impressions. some are more pushover and some can be more stubborn with their initial reads. how is that behavior alignment indicative in your opinion?

[Frozen Angel]

You’re not just an clown, you’re the entire circus.

Btw Norwee's scumslipping here by saying this while voting me--

Scum clown isn't a thing.

I can't be a clown and be scum.

I can be only one of the two.

Norwee's vote on me says scum, Norwee's statement I am a clown gives the true read: he knows I'm town.

Why on earth is calling someone a clown AI? You are implying scum are always criminal masterminds who never make mistakes here.
You are just twisting things around to fit your read. Oh Norwegian called me a scum clown, that doesn't exist so they are scum-slipping. It also fits my read on him. Ah that also means he confirmed i'm town guys.

mastina do you not have multiple abilities

I have one ability.

Clans aren't an ability. Everyone has that. It's not a PR if everyone has it. Saying a neighborhood is an ability in a game where everyone has it, is basically like saying a Vanilla Townie with the power of their voice and vote, is an ability. It's literally something even a VT would have.

Being an apprentice aren't an ability. That's a restriction on the abilities. A gate.

I have only one ability. Gated by being an apprentice. But only the one.

Titus doesn't have it. Did you ignore her intentionally so it can fit your read or are you implying titus is scum as well?
And since Titus doesn't have it, by your own logic your only ability is the neighbourhood. Why don't you have another ability huh?

Scum clown isn't a thing.

oh come on you don't believe this

(I don't know how to respond to this without getting banned; every term I want to get would get me at minimum a warning but:)

Yes, I do.

There. is. no. such. thing. as. a. scum. clown. Clowns are specifically town, because you don't call scum clowns--you call them scum. You can call them incompetent scum. You can call them bad scum. You can call them flailing scum. You can call them laughably bad scum. You can call them all sorts of things.

But not a scum clown. That's not a thing.

Clown is, specifically, a town insult. It is insulting a player's capabilities as town by saying that they are a clown.
Players don't call scum, clown.

They can go, "you're either scum, or a clown"!
That's literally a phrase that people speak.

But they don't say "you're a clown" while THINKING someone is scum.
That's something that is a scumslip. Scum do it disproportionately often. Like, 90+% of the time, often. Genuinely one of the strongest scumtells, scumtell level of scumtell.

It's not semantics.

It's basic psychology.

You don't call someone who you think is scum, making posts that you think are bad, a clown.
You call someone who you think is scum, making posts that you think are bad, scum.
You call someone who you think is town, making posts that you think are bad, a clown.

The two do not mix. Half of one and half of the other is thus, a perspective slip.

You got called out for bs and are tryharding it

My comments were deliberately made that way, but the general meaning should be obvious

So 1 - she is insulted by someone who she was scum reading, she makes a weird comment in return that shows her passion and that she doesn't wanna change her read on the slot (she was insulted so makes sense to feel that way) it doesn't mean she had an inconsistent behavioral pattern there. what about her reaction is an intentional scum move in comparison to a possible town move?

2 - She said everyone and she meant almost everyone very clearly. she also clearly didn't mean her own neighborhood. her impression is we all have skills that are locked behind being an apprentice. It's a mech spec that actually more likely to come from town? I don't get why you think she is trying to fit a narrative in there. she is just saying what she thinks about the setup and it actually makes sense from her view if she is town.

the only way this can be from a scum mind set is if scum is familiar with how the mechs work/are also apperentices, and she got the impression rest of town is like that so she acted like that in purpose to look innocent. I just don't see any clues for it to be like that

[Frozen Angel]

even though you can't possibly make a meta read based on emotional meltdown in general. we all are humans. unless if you're saying mastina will never genuinely have a meltdown and is always faking it which is a pretty weird take that makes absolutely no sense

Okay. I know you’re excited to do some debating(tm) but this is a poor interpretation and argument.
Which is fair I’m fairly vague. But like, no.

I wanna drive Mastina up so that they at least claim and decide from there.
I’m at work right now so I’ll respond to some of this later.
But I’m surprised this is the direct Angel decided to go and sort of disappointed honestly since they kinda talked up their method and then they hit me lol.

Well I'm just trying to understand how you connect the dots in your head to make the conclusions you made if I'm interpreting your moves wrong or are describing them wrong help me see your intentions and where you were coming from.

so take your time but I wanna know what that meta read is based on

Are you asking me to tell you what I’ve already said in thread.
If you want links look for them yourself. I’m not worried about being caught I a lie, because it’s true regardless of my alignment. I have no incentive to pretend this isn’t a dud and a wasted use of your time to explore. Regardless of your alignment this game.

I want to know why you think "when mastina has a melt down she is scum"

I don't have time to check all her games and all your games to investigate if you truly believe that or not. it was your claim so burden of its proof is on you?

[Frozen Angel]

All i see is Mastina using the word clown to call norwegian scum who slipped and called her town; And a technicality to call Alisae scum.
This is not town mentality at all, but i admit i find it hard to see scum doing it either.
Her reads didn't make much sense to me since the beginning but i ignored it since there wasn't anything weird until post #1354
pedit:@FA

she acting as her read is more confident as it is and trying to use new evidence to push that stubbornness even if it doesn't make much sense is not a scum mindset move by default is my impression of this.

But I can understand why you been uneasy with the slot to the point of voting her.

even though you can't possibly make a meta read based on emotional meltdown in general. we all are humans. unless if you're saying mastina will never genuinely have a meltdown and is always faking it which is a pretty weird take that makes absolutely no sense

Okay. I know you’re excited to do some debating(tm) but this is a poor interpretation and argument.
Which is fair I’m fairly vague. But like, no.

I wanna drive Mastina up so that they at least claim and decide from there.
I’m at work right now so I’ll respond to some of this later.
But I’m surprised this is the direct Angel decided to go and sort of disappointed honestly since they kinda talked up their method and then they hit me lol.

Well I'm just trying to understand how you connect the dots in your head to make the conclusions you made if I'm interpreting your moves wrong or are describing them wrong help me see your intentions and where you were coming from.

so take your time but I wanna know what that meta read is based on

Are you asking me to tell you what I’ve already said in thread.
If you want links look for them yourself. I’m not worried about being caught I a lie, because it’s true regardless of my alignment. I have no incentive to pretend this isn’t a dud and a wasted use of your time to explore. Regardless of your alignment this game.

I want to know why you think "when mastina has a melt down she is scum"

I don't have time to check all her games and all your games to investigate if you truly believe that or not. it was your claim so burden of its proof is on you?

I don’t need your vote, so I’m okay with not putting in the effort to dig up evidence of my own statements.
I know my reasoning is consistent and that there’s evidence of it I don’t need you to know that.

This is such an unnecessary and bold attitude against a kind question about sorting your opinion and intentions/ and by proxy your slot. or maybe the vote against you made you feel uneasy?

you "knowing your reasoning is consistent" translates to basically "I know I'm town". so what? town says that. scum says that. more than half of the town responsibility is to show others they are not scum. if no one tries to explain their intentions everyone can hide and no scum can be found

pedit: oki that's a better way to put it. and still doesn't give me any answers

"As mentioned though, I think Mastina lacks a certain amount of flexibility it’s a wall they have trouble getting over and they’ve spoken about it at length in other games. Something I also won’t bother to source because I don’t wanna and I don’t gotta."

You mean a sort of an emotional wall that they cant help but to have a melt down as scum but cant have an emotional melt down and always stays calm when town?

[Frozen Angel]

if she is truely a mason then there is someone else with a clear on her. and if she isn't then there are no other slot to confirm their story or their buddy has to claim mason to confirm her story which means we will get 2 scum instead of one if she flips red cause of it.

so I expect the masonry to fully out before we eliminate her or for her to claim her actual role if she is threatened to go this day phase

[Frozen Angel]

I don't understand the obsession with masons, i think it was already established that Mastina claims mason as a joke in almost all games they play.

I also think its 97% a fake trollish claim that is NAI and was just responding to shiros comment.

regardless if she is getting eliminated she has to be given time to claim and a mason is not a safe fake claim for scum regardless of situation for stuff I explained