Mini 2284: The Thing Anonymous [Day 2]

[MacReady~]

I haven't seen it either. I heard it's based on the hit game Among Us.

VOTE: Windows

I've not either.
I actually kinda liked Windows' opening post

[MacReady~]

Ah, we're getting serious?

I like Lars' and MacReady's intros, probably for bad reasons. And I think Copper's is slightly more likely to come from a Thing.

Yeah, I thought that post would help transition out of RVS a bit.

Clark's 17 felt a bit off to me, but other than what I've already mentioned, I didn't get anything out of the posts prior to mine

[MacReady~]

I like Palmer

VOTE: clark

[MacReady~]

Well from my POV the overexplanation on why 'tbh' was scummy felt somewhat odd coupled with the 'i'll vote here with you now', and like they mismatch a bit, as does the last paragraph, which is a little conciliatory towards Copper and wants a further explanation on the verbal tics

The former feels like he independantly somewhat thinks tbh is scummy, and the middle sort of implies that he's voting along with Palmer in sort of support and somewhat dilutes the initial reasoning, and the last paragraph does even more.

The whole of [post]28[post] doesn't really match in tone and purpose

Also, regardless of Clark's alignment, if there's scum on this current wagon I think it's Blair

[MacReady~]

Man this anon thing is great

[MacReady~]

Eh not sure I love Childs' vote either, but like the serious wagon

I do think Gary is somewhat townie

[MacReady~]

Do I really need to say that I think complex reads are townie...?

PE: An E-2 wagon on page 3 is usually a meme. I'm baffled that people could misinterpret my post that badly.

Ok, any thoughts on my interpretation of your post?
And hey, would rather a serious wagon on page 3 than a meme one

[MacReady~]

Eh not sure I love Childs' vote either, but like the serious wagon

I do think Gary is somewhat townie

What did You find off about Blair?

Pedit:
@Clark is not like there's not content to talk about

Oh i just realized this was at me
I thought the first few votes on the wagon were fairly organic, Blair's (and Childs') are, for better or for worse, more bandwagon-y and are, in my mind, less inherently likely to be 'pure' - there's more of a chance that irregardless of Clark's alignment, they're just taking advantage of an already existing wagon

[MacReady~]

I think Clark & Childs could both be scum and Childs might actually have more scum equity atp - would not be opposed to moving votes there instead.

I like MacReady's 69 think this slot is currently town.

Oh ya i would just bus my partner on page 2

Haha 69.

I can see scum throwing on a distancing vote

[MacReady~]

Fwiw I had not actually read through the whole diary post before - that is one of my favorite books too

[MacReady~]

disagree, i very much like Clark as of right now. The questions theyre asking seem very newbish by nature

This is a very interesting take, and I'm pretty sure 28 belies that they are not new

I also strongly dislike their response to the wagon on them

[MacReady~]

VOTE: Palmer

I don't really love this vote but I think the followup reasoning is unlikely to come from scum

[MacReady~]

I'm somewhat puzzled how you can come to the conclusion that you 'like' clarke when you haven't been reading many of their posts and seem to have skipped a lot of the discussion on them as well

[MacReady~]

I don't feel like we should forget about Clark yet, because the gut still hasn't said a word besides "why me?" But I do agree with these points

I'm not moving my vote until they respond more to their wagon

[MacReady~]

I feel pretty good about Palmer, Fuchs, and Windows being town, and Garry to some degree as well

[MacReady~]

I'm somewhat puzzled by how you could care enough of a silly little read i just let fly into the wind, I'm not even pushing it or even fully sticking to it - I'm just stating my first thoughts when I read a post but apparently its so criminal. If you would prefer it, I can very much bite my tongue and just not share thoughts at all? I would think I'm a pretty good troller.

This is a fairly defensive response in a game that's pretty much entirely about analyzing what other players have posted, especially in an anon format.

[MacReady~]

Yes, that's exactly my point

[MacReady~]

For what it's worth, I'm not actually convinced that all of this makes Norris scum

[MacReady~]

Regardless of your alignment trolling because you were pushed on page 7 is not the best

[MacReady~]

OK Norris is scummy, scummier than Garry.
VOTE: Norris

Also this kind of trolling is really scummy imo.

Why is the trolling scummy?

[MacReady~]

Hey Clark, thanks for joining.
What do you think about the prior focus on your slot?

[MacReady~]

What do you think about the wagon that formed on the slot?

[MacReady~]

Not much, I almost always get early wagoned day 1 so it's surprisingly business as usual for replacing into a slot

Well more - do you have any reads on anyone who joined the wagon?

[MacReady~]

I'm somewhere around here:

Nauls
Garry
Blair

Fuchs
Bennings
Windows

MacReady
Childs
Clark

Palmer
Copper
Norris

I don't think I've talked about Palmer much but he's just seemed consistently a little off to me. Feels like he's been trying to pocket Nauls, and the way he followed on Windows in 249 felt slimy to me.

Hmmm this readslist is somewhat weird to me

[MacReady~]

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

I'm not sure if I agree with this thought but flagging this post for later.

I still think Norris is more likely than not a town troll, but I am also not really reading their posts anymore as I find them annoying

[MacReady~]

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

While I did like Windows' opening, they haven't felt that townie to me since then.
I'm also flagging this post so I don't forget about it later

[MacReady~]

This might seem sort of off-topic but I'm still curious and would be interested how people answer - are you calling scum 'scum' this game, or 'Thing' ?

[MacReady~]

I like both Blair and Childs on page 12.
Clark hasn't done anything to convince me to move my vote

[MacReady~]

Spoiler:

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

Don't forget the LaLaLa posts

I mean if trolling is a free pass to being townread as some people seem to be implying why don't we all just troll and random lim people everday?

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

If Thing Norris is incapable of not trolling I'm not sure how jumping into another body is going to change anything

why are you defending a troll old man?

do you like being trolled?

as for your question, he trolls today to "appear" town because his actions are "too scum to be scum" and then changelings to someone, I can totally see scum trying to pull that off

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

On a similar flip side, if he's town and starts solving and not trolling later on someone might case that as having been assimilated

this is tea leaf reading type of stuff

It's still antitown behavior to answer like he did to a simple explain your thought process question

if we don't have any better leads by the end of the day I'd be down to incinerate Norris but I'm not going to waste my time trying to sort some troll.

you know what could fix that? maybe start liming trolls first to discourage such behavior?

but anyway you at least aknowledge that it's a possible and deserved lim

Pages 11 and 12 actually
I feel like his approach to your slot, particularly from these posts are unlikely to come from scum - he feels truly annoyed at the situation, is not pushing a policy lim, and is trying to understand Norris's behavior in an AI context. The cumulative effect feels townie to me, doesn't feel like a policy lim from scum

[MacReady~]

Oh exactly what Nauls said while I was trying to get that formatted on mobile .

[MacReady~]

I feel very good about Nauls being town as well, I don't remember if I said that

[MacReady~]

You don't seem to like Childs pushing you so I wouldn't expect you to

[MacReady~]

I don't really get the town reads on Childs, he is still firmly in my null pile.

@MacReady, do you scum read anyone other than Clark?

Not to the same degree, but Copper, Bennings, and Windows

[MacReady~]

I can vote Windows as well, but I don't really want the wagon on Clark to do due to disinterest - I think the slit is pretty scummy, and Clark 2.0 has done nothing to redeem the slot

[MacReady~]

Why do you think Windows is townie?

[MacReady~]

People who are limmed do flip, so I don't quite follow what you mean about bussing incentives

[MacReady~]

Why do you think Windows is townie?

I thought his "reasoning" for thinking I am mafia is too stupid for a mafia player to make up.

And I guess, I think it's actually something scum might latch onto though, for lack of anything better

[MacReady~]

Yeah that's fair

[MacReady~]

I really don't think Clark 2.0 has been townie at all. I want to wagon the slot again

[MacReady~]

There is no built in trigger here for him to scroll back to previous pages to investigate the timing of your posts, because he knows you are telling the truth and that you did in fact have the time to do what you claimed. He would not expect to find a contradiction, since he knows its true based on knowledge of your alignment.

Well, if he's incredulous of Copper's claim it might lead him to go investigate the timing, irregardless of alignment imo

[MacReady~]

Also the fact the moment where the current wagons get questioned and momentum towards a Windows wagon actually starts to form, 2 players randomly show up to reawaken the Clark wagon, which they’ve been quiet on for a while. Veeeery iffy on that.

- I'm not sure I would describe the gamestate as 'a moment where the current wagons get questioned'
- we can have competing windows and clark wagons
- I called to reform the Clark wagon twice in the past two pages or so

I don't find this suspicious to be honest

[MacReady~]

Fuchs is town too I think
I don't have a lot of scumreads

[MacReady~]

It feels like it very well could’ve been made from a scum POV,

I actually have felt pretty consistently that Windows' posts are coming from this sort of POV - this is exactly why I scumread him

[MacReady~]

453 is very townie
I'm waiting for the Clark slot to come back, again

[MacReady~]

Hello Garry 2.0

[MacReady~]

Do you have thoughts on anything since you were here last, and is there a reason I should townread you (and therefore not try to lim you today)?

To be blunt, your slot was pretty scummy as we transitioned out of RVS, and your incarnation hasn't been much better. I've been waiting to see if you would be any townier, but you havent done much, and barring my read changing in the near future. soon I'm going to actively start canvassing to lim you. You're by far the scummiest slot in the game to me

[MacReady~]

and is there a reason I should townread you (and therefore not try to lim you today)?

Short of claiming is there any way to answer this question?

Being townier and demonstrating you're trying to solve the game.

Who do you think is scum?

[MacReady~]

Garry, will you be catching up?

At this point Clarke is by far my favorite wagon. The first incarnation if the slot was very scummy, and the second is not trying to solve the game at all

[MacReady~]

I am getting somewhat alarmed by the fact that the game is stalling a bit

[MacReady~]

UNVOTE:
To make sure nothing untoward happens before a claim, but I am still on in spirit

[MacReady~]

lmao childs wildin

Agreed

[MacReady~]

I'm a jailkeeper

They way that Clark has gone existing in thread while close to elimination feels more likely to be scum then a town PR I think.

But on the other hand, looking at the Clark wiki, jailkeeper seems very thematically appropriate while jailkeeper seeming to be an unlikely role for scum to get.

Gonna think on it

Strongly agree with the first point, why do you think it's unlikely for scun to have this role?

[MacReady~]

Well, how do you envision testing the claim?

[MacReady~]

Also, irregardless of the claim, the fact that they're still not solving, trying to find scum, doing anything, etc, is pretty scummy imo

[MacReady~]

I don't really care about the claim itself, I'm still stuck on the fact that this doesn't look like a townie claim at all

[MacReady~]

I don't see how you being a novice vig proves that Clark is town or will enable us to 'test' her overnight.

If Day2 you announce your target and Clark allegedly doesn't jailkeeps them - to the outside observer there's no difference between Clarke jailkeeping anyone else and not being able to jailkeep at all (i.e. because they made up the role)

Also tonight, if scum just try to kill anybody else, we didn't 'prove' Clarke's ability either

I also think a jailkeeper is a scummier claim in light of there allegedly being a vig

[MacReady~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' here

[MacReady~]

Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.

I strongly think your slot is scum, yes. I see no reason to drop the push

[MacReady~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' here

^

I'm not usually great at this setup spec - is there something I'm missing here, that would imply novice vig -> clarke town? I just don't follow

[MacReady~]

my read changed in 10 pages? wow, shocker

The issue is more that there's nothing in those 10 pages explaining how or why you might switch

[MacReady~]

then on night 2, tell clark to target them again, while childs tried to vig shoot clark.

If clark is town, clark saves themselves and becomes confirmed town. If clark is scum, they cannot stop the shot and clark dies.

I see

That relies on:
- tying up potential PR's until day3 (and thus making this a topic of discussion until then)
- Neither of them deviating from the plan
- no bodyswapping shenanigans

Which makes me a little dubious if it's worth the effort

[MacReady~]

Yeah, I don't think this is necessarily damning for Childs, I'm just not sure I see the benefits of doing this

[MacReady~]

Fuchs is incredibly townie

[MacReady~]

Just a follow up for Childs, who even do you want us to kill over Clark?

(Windows would be my pick)

On a different note: Childs, if Clark is scum, how/when do you propose taking care of the slot?

Is your plan to wait until day2 and identify where he assimilated to and lim the slot tomorrow?

[MacReady~]

I don't particularly believe Clark's claim but I'm kind of scared of that scenario where we enter day 2 down 8v3 down 2 prs.

Yeah, I feel like this too, and that would be a pretty bad scenario for all of this

But, if we don't lim Clarke today, I'm also just concerned about the scum-Clarke universe: when and how would we lim the thing? What would be the threshold for limming them?

[MacReady~]

I don't really have much more to say here - I hope Clark is not a town jailbreaker, but their silence and posting throughout this entire process has not been townie at all, so I don't think that's very likely. I think there's a fair amount of vca to do in the scum-Clarke world, but that should wait for tomorrow

The blatant consensus and lack of a counterwagon do somewhat worry me though

[MacReady~]

Why never fire when I can have a jailkeeper block me or target my target to effectively produce the same result?

From my POV there's observably no difference between 'never firing' and 'Clarke jailkeeping you indefinitely' and 'both of you being scum and lying about these roles'

Also I'm not a fan of any plan that reequires several nights to work out - it ties up the PR's and leaves the original issue unresolved for way too long

[MacReady~]

I have made it clear that Clark is not allowed any excuses in deviating from the plan--protection on me, always, no WIFOMing it. That makes any deviation impossible to justify.

Unless I missed it, I don't think Clarke even acknowledged your plan or said they would go along with it

[MacReady~]

I think there's a fair amount of vca to do in the scum-Clarke world, but that should wait for tomorrow

And in a town-Clark world?

What do we gain then?

For that matter, serious question:

If Clark is scum, where the fuck is the counterwagon to them?

I haven't read the entire game so I haven't seen it all--but from what I've seen it has been Clark at 3-5 votes the entire game and the largest wagons outside of Clark at 2 votes.

This has occured to me, and if Clarke is scum I think the rest of the scumteam are relatively low-influence

I just don't see how on play town-Clarke doesn't, like, respond to anything that's been discussed since they claimed. This doesn't seem to be an activity thing ...

Fwiw if Childs 2.0 had been here when Clarke claimed I think I would be viewing this as the two of them being scum together

[MacReady~]

WHEN Clark flips town jailkeeper and I die immediately after that, I suppose I should tell you for the future that I lied about having my only gate be Novice, there's another gate beyond that. A quite severe one actually but I wasn't gonna out that without reason. (It's just that now that I'm a guaranteed N1 death I have no choice but to since it won't flip when I die.)

Ok so you're being vague and not telling the whole story about a mechanica thing that you're using to try to save another slot from a mechanics POV?

[MacReady~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

Yes, I can act N1

This is the grand totality of them acknowledging anything abt mechanics

To be fair, they also haven't really posted since then, but there's been no indication they're busy irl, will post soon, etc

We don't even know if they are planning on going along with said plan

I'm also somewhat baffled how town sees all this activity around their slot and just ignores it

[MacReady~]

Sweet that's where i was going to start today

VOTE: windows

Lars dying looks like an assimilation to me, so I think we need to keep an eye out for that

I am also acknowledging to the relevant parties that I have received a message overnight

Childs has some explaining to do.

[MacReady~]

In my mind, the entirety of Clarke's demise points to scum being fairly low-influence - they weren't able to divert the wagon away

Lars fits pretty neatly into that profile
I'm not sure how we'll find them though

I think that Childs should hopefully be easy to identify as themselves

[MacReady~]

I feel like scum!Childs assimilates last night, seems in line with Childs' confidence + the claim they were getting killed.

Wouldnt Childs be the body we see today in that case?

[MacReady~]

And also for them to confirm that they are actually capable of shooting tonight,

Wouldn't aa newly-scum Childs say they were able to do this regardless?

[MacReady~]

Town-Lars is a very odd kill to make last night

Pedit yeah I think the same. We should be able to tell if Childs got assimilated

[MacReady~]

Well, assuming you didn't get assimilated after the fact, but yes

Pedit I don't know, I didn't think about it that way. I don't think so though- I just received a message, I don't see why an assimilated Thing couldn't receive it

[MacReady~]

Doesn't assimilation happen after action though?

Original you could have sent the message
Gotten assimilated
Assimilated-you sees what actions original you had taken
And thus known original you sent the message

Like once you have access to the account you can see everything the slot did previously, no?

[MacReady~]

If that Thing successfully carries out the nightkill on its intended target, it will "assimilate" the alternate account of the killed player and gain control of it. The Thing will lose control of its original account, and it will flip as having died during the night phase instead.

If you got assimilated overnight
The Thing would have access to your account
So I would assume be able to see what actions you took, etc

Maybe I'm fundementally misunderstanding but this is how I think assimilation works

[MacReady~]

Huh
Ok then yeah, from my POV you can't have been assimilated, and from your POV I couldn't have

[MacReady~]

Yeah, that was a given in my mind
The question was more if they could have been assimilated after

[MacReady~]

faking a guilty is one of those things i would love to do in this game because you can always abandon your slot after the fact. I also felt kind of susp of Palmer on day one to begin with - I think there is a good chance the convo between Palmer and Clark at beginning of day was badly done scum theatre

I hope Childs is town because Palmer needs shooting after I flip town.
For those who aren't me (I know I'm town) is it likely town cop investigates someone who is under suspicion from D1 and therefore a reasonable possibility of assimilating away? Compared with getting an inno on someone more likely to still be themselves today?

I don't think you were under so much suspicion
(Although I admit between you and Lars I think it's more likely you would have assimilated)

UNVOTE:
I still scumread Windows, more just giving a larger buffer to give time to discuss etc

[MacReady~]

They're just trying to rush a guilty through I think? In the knowledge Childs won't kill Palmer because Lars is Childs.

Yeah but then we'd lim Childs tomorrow

[MacReady~]

Childs has some explaining to do.

Well, I was wrong, not much more to say about it than that.

You're

probably

town but the whole 'staunchly defending the limmed scum' thing does give me some doubts

If you were in the game at the time Clarke claimed I would firmly believe you to be partners with them. The only reason I'm not actively scumreading you is because you repped in after the claim was made

[MacReady~]

Also for those of you who believe Palmer how do you explain the nightkill? It would be pretty dumb of me to kill Lars since he was townreading me. Definitely more so than some others

I still think there's a chance he assimilated

[MacReady~]

Do you think that cop+vig+mailman all fit in this game together? And if they are all in the game together, do you think that that is the full extent of our PRs?

It almost feels to me like that should be all the PRs
Maybe they were told a jailkeeper would be a reasonable fakeclaim? I don't recall Peta's feelings on giving scum fakeclaims tho

[MacReady~]

. That means I, as scum, would be forced to "prove" it at some point, and eventually, be unable to.

This was your logic for keeping scum-Clarke alive indefinitely as well ...
This only works if I know you're town. I believe you're you, but I don't know what alignment you started with

[MacReady~]

But I am not confident that you are you, and therefore, think I would prefer we kill Palmer first.

Yeah fuck that.

If you push Palmer through I'm gunning for you (haha*) after the fact. I can't literally shoot you since my shot is hard-locked to Windows then, but I ain't gonna let that stand.

(*technically, my vig flavor is a flamethrower, not a gun, but...)

To be clear, if you target anyone outside of the other half of the 50-50 tonight in the event of a townflip I will do my best to lim you tomorrow

[MacReady~]

For the record I really wanna shoot Fuchs at this point tbh.

No
This is not a thing that's happening
If you shoot anyone it's the scum half of the 1v1 after we limmed the town half

[MacReady~]

On a different note: Childs, if Clark is scum, how/when do you propose taking care of the slot?

The day my shot succeeds, obviously. Or if Clark shows up dead N1

Like, you were asked point blank when your plan reveals a clark assimilation, and your answer does not make any sense if you are 1 shot

Yeah this is weird
Not sure it makes them scum tho, I only half believe the 1shot claim regardless of their alignment

[MacReady~]

Fuchs is town
I want to lim Windows today
Childs should absolutely not hero shoot
Palmer is approaching this from a townie POV

[MacReady~]

So from my POV:
Blair is conftown
Palmer and Fuchs are both strongly town
Childs is Childs of a mysterious alignment

Not on auto but there aren't a ton of slots for scum to be

[MacReady~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

Yes, I can act N1

Also I'm baffled how an ungated jailkeeper claim made you think Clarke was town. How did this fit in with your novice 1shot vig claim, and you also lied yesterday when you sais you were ungated other than novice

[MacReady~]

You realize this looks quite a lot like partner-you trying to save buddy-Clarke, right?

[MacReady~]

I'm still somewhat puzzled by the fact that scum chose to kill Lars (unless, I suppose, scum assimilated into someone other than the obvious Childs. Not sure we'd have a great way to detect that though)

[MacReady~]

I mean that I have no particular reason to believe that the gate is 1shot, you already lied about the existence of said gate.

I believe that if you're town you're some sort of vig. I dont know what the gate is, and I don't trust whatever you claim the gate to be

And wrt your plan. Yes, great plan if Clarke was town. But they weren't, and your plan didn't account for that possibility, and in fact would have obfuscated matters greatly if we had gone through with it since you lied

Pedit
You should be leashed, yes. Do not shoot Fuchs

[MacReady~]

Yeah it's them
I just get .... super annoyed when town lies about their role for no good reason

And I'm still a little paranoid of scum-Childs world

[MacReady~]

Palmer, maybe you answered this, but why did you target Windows?

Also why do we think scum killed Lars (assuming they did and he disn't assimilate)

[MacReady~]

Also for those of you who believe Palmer how do you explain the nightkill? It would be pretty dumb of me to kill Lars since he was townreading me. Definitely more so than some others

Why do you think Lars died?

[MacReady~]

Why do you, Windows, think Lars died?
Given that from your POV that you're town

[MacReady~]

It's wild to me that you're going with 'unreliable town cop' Palmer over 'scum Palmer'

[MacReady~]

While that post is hilarious, I think it's pretty clear Windows is lolcatting.

I'm fine ending the day here with a lim on Windows, with the understanding that if they somehow flip town, Childs is shooting Palmer, and otherwise holstering

[MacReady~]

Should we make Childs shoot to confirm themselves when Windows flips scum, though? We know they shot town if the game doesn't end, and it's probably a good idea to confirm the slot as town?

I'm fine ending the day here with a lim on Windows, with the understanding that if they somehow flip town, Childs is shooting Palmer, and otherwise holstering

we can discuss who Childs should shoot after Windows flips scum and not waste the day

Fair enuf. I think I would want Childs to shoot Bennings or Copper

[MacReady~]

Honestly, I don't know who the third is. I feel like I found two, and now I'm just going up from the bottom of my reads.

I haven't looked at any slots in relation to Clarke/Windows, or how likely they seem to be partners with them though

I can take a closer look at both a little later ^