Mini 2284: The Thing Anonymous [Day 2]

[Childs~]

And so it begins.

VOTE: Windows

[Childs~]

I wanted to watch the movie so that I could better understand my character in order to portray him properly, but unfortunately I have learned that to truly be Lars, I would need to

Spoiler: spoiler for the first 10 minutes of the thing

scream a few sentences in Norwegian and then get shot in the head and die

so out of protest, I will not be watching the movie, and will instead be coming up with a new characterization of my own design for Lars. Please wait.

What do you mean man?

We can totally make that happen.

[Childs~]

Dear god, is that^^ what happens when you get taken over by a Thing?

No. This is what happens when you becone a weeb.

Journal Entry#1

November 3rd 2022: McMurdo Station, Antarctica

It was cold. So cold. so very cold. the kind of cold that comes in the night and creeps into your bones and leaves you shaking while wrapped in your blankets because the light of the world has faded.

It had begun. The last planeload of evacuees left in the morning leaving just thirteen souls behind.

The last survivors of the horror that had unfolded over the last week forcing the evacuation of the largest research station on the continent.

Some of us were already

dead

their bodies turned into meatsacks for monsters to hide in.

If I had my way we would all take a collective bath in a pool of kerosene and then light it up - end it all. Better to insure the safety of humanity than to die screaming in the dark but I was outvoted.

Now we had to play

the game

. Outwit the monsters within our ranks and kill them all with extreme prejudice. They could be any of us and become any of us.

Disgusting - the very thought made my skin crawl inside - the idea that

it

could eat me at night and walk around wearing my skin like a hideous caricature pretending to be me. slaughtering my friends in their sleep.

I wrote down a keycode in my journal:

Today I am human. My keycode today is itwapofmhaocotbtdwqdasdotnidttaasssttlhoimaaosac.

it stands for :

Inside the Waystone a pair of men huddled at one corner of the bar. They drank with quiet determination, avoiding serious discussions of troubling news. In doing this they added a small, sullen silence to the larger, hollow one. It made an alloy of sorts, a counterpoint.

A line from one of my favorite books on my bookshelf. I know those

things

cannot read - they know only how to destroy.

My keycode tomorrow will be: hsialsrbbeftcaglutrcbostfotsatdadayasacsfttgrtrtmfttsptbiwtlaitwdalutfctootfhtwb

if I cannot explain what it stands for, you will know I am no longer with you and you should incinerate me immediately with no mercy for I am now one of them.

I like Palmer for town - if Clark flips mafia I would think Garry, Lars and MacReady are town as well.

I'll vote here with you for now.

makes my hair stand up on end

VOTE: Clark This is the fourth vote for Clark[E-3]

Hey hey man is this allowed? Cuz if it is...

I want in, codes are totally my thing.

Ah, we're getting serious?

I like Lars' and MacReady's intros, probably for bad reasons. And I think Copper's is slightly more likely to come from a Thing.

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

Me too TBH.
VOTE: Bennings

This? What sticks out to you as Thing-like?

Yeah, that. It's a vibe. The TBH seems self-conscious, the post itself is short and seems to be made for the sake of making it and fitting in, and the vote on a person that hasn't posted yet vibes like he doesn't want to start ruffling feathers yet.

1. I use TBHs a lot in my writing style.
2. I found myself to really relate to that post.
3. I voted that person because they were the first in the VC and I always do my RVS votes on arbitrary factors like that.

I also don't like this, seems overly defensive/survavilistic for page 2

I'm thinking Cooper or Clark are good votes but I want to SEE where this is going

VOTE: Clark

[Childs~]

Is this a serious wagon or are y'all trying to get an early claim here?

Translation: "why me dude?"

[Childs~]

Eh not sure I love Childs' vote either, but like the serious wagon

I do think Gary is somewhat townie

What did You find off about Blair?

Pedit:
@Clark is not like there's not content to talk about

[Childs~]

Eh not sure I love Childs' vote either, but like the serious wagon

I do think Gary is somewhat townie

What did You find off about Blair?

Pedit:
@Clark is not like there's not content to talk about

...Which I am talking about. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Eh... You are still talking about you sir

[Childs~]

Eh not sure I love Childs' vote either, but like the serious wagon

I do think Gary is somewhat townie

What did You find off about Blair?

Pedit:
@Clark is not like there's not content to talk about

Oh i just realized this was at me
I thought the first few votes on the wagon were fairly organic, Blair's (and Childs') are, for better or for worse, more bandwagon-y and are, in my mind, less inherently likely to be 'pure' - there's more of a chance that irregardless of Clark's alignment, they're just taking advantage of an already existing wagon

Mmhm I see, idk why i thought you would say something about the diary which for good measure I think it's nai

I was thinking about going for a Cooper vote but decided to pressure Clark, so far it doesn't seem like he is willing to put something on the table

[Childs~]

I think Clark & Childs could both be scum and Childs might actually have more scum equity atp - would not be opposed to moving votes there instead.

I like MacReady's 69 think this slot is currently town.

Oh ya i would just bus my partner on page 2

Haha 69.

[Childs~]

You were the one who said "You could both be scum" old man

[Childs~]

do you want to explain the mindset of your reply to me ?

Well I Will put it in simple words for You

It was a joke

[Childs~]

Ah, we're getting serious?

I like Lars' and MacReady's intros, probably for bad reasons. And I think Copper's is slightly more likely to come from a Thing.

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

Me too TBH.
VOTE: Bennings

This? What sticks out to you as Thing-like?

Yeah, that. It's a vibe. The TBH seems self-conscious, the post itself is short and seems to be made for the sake of making it and fitting in, and the vote on a person that hasn't posted yet vibes like he doesn't want to start ruffling feathers yet.

1. I use TBHs a lot in my writing style.
2. I found myself to really relate to that post.
3. I voted that person because they were the first in the VC and I always do my RVS votes on arbitrary factors like that.

I also don't like this, seems overly defensive/survavilistic for page 2

I'm thinking Cooper or Clark are good votes but I want to SEE where this is going

VOTE: Clark

Well the push seemed genuine if on flimsy reasoning, why would I not defend myself?

I mean you can, but it just feels over cautious

[Childs~]

By the way is also why anon is so cool, you don't have people jumping in quoting 10 games with +700 pages that they spect you to read to justify their "Town play"

It is so refreshing

[Childs~]

Palmer, Windows literally said "catching a thing everyday and nobody can stop us" which is true for any game? Is that not literally just "explaining" (maybe stateing is a better word for you if you want to be a nitpicky demonspawn) the obvious?

I mean, yes, it's "stating the obvious", but the whole post itself is obviously trying to shoehorn in as many "Thing" puns as possible. I think that gives it much more context (and vibes more towny) than if you take his post literally.

I think you are reading too much into it

[Childs~]

Palmer is giving me thing vibes

[Childs~]

Childs, what's your opinion on Norris and his push on Windows?

the push feels hollow at best

I currently don't see anything wrong with Windows besides the fact that his name is actually a "thing" and it's the reason why I rvs voted him

I would like people like Norris to stop defending someone who's response to pressure is horrendous.

[Childs~]

Palmer, Windows literally said "catching a thing everyday and nobody can stop us" which is true for any game? Is that not literally just "explaining" (maybe stateing is a better word for you if you want to be a nitpicky demonspawn) the obvious?

I mean, yes, it's "stating the obvious", but the whole post itself is obviously trying to shoehorn in as many "Thing" puns as possible. I think that gives it much more context (and vibes more towny) than if you take his post literally.

I think you are reading too much into it

In what way is Palmer “reading too much into it” any more than Norris? My literal first thought on Norris’ initial post on Windows is that they were reading too much into Windows’ intro, which was clearly made in a joking tone.

you are absolutely correct homie, i was thinking about that just now, let's say they are reading too much into that which i feel is nai

[Childs~]

clarification I feel windows post 8 is NAI

[Childs~]

I dislike Palmer and Clark(? I think) calling Copper out as being defensive. It seems to me more often a line scum use to dismiss town explaining themselves where if town stay silent then scum would say they have no defence... so it seems like a rhetorical argument rather than a valid point.

In and of itself that can also come from town who are assuming their target is scum rather than trying to convince others of it. But in Palmer's case this also rang suspicious to me: post 111 (not just that Palmer is okay with a wagon on a townread (123 I think explained that part okay) but the way he dismisses all his reads " I don't think any of my ideas are going to be >rand right now" which is like, yeah no shit, we're barely out of RVS. I don't think town feel the need to undermine their own posts in that way.

And while the explanation for the wagon stuff
post 123 in itself was okay I felt the second part of that post seemed to deliberately misunderstand Fuchs' point.


I'm also not convinced a town Blair posts his code so confidently especially with giving the answer to the first code. That to me feels more likely scum trying to appear to be town. Where's the "shit if town go with this and scum crack the code then this move will lose the game for town" sense of caution? Also I kinda feel someone genuinely trying it as town would more likely have checked the rules to confirm if it's okay or not.

VOTE: Blair

There are a few more things I want to comment on, will do after work.

Windows gets to be town more than any of you imo

I don't feel like we should forget about Clark yet, because the gut still hasn't said a word besides "why me?" But I do agree with these points

[Childs~]

Stop treating me like a baby.

I won't be answering a clearly obvious answer.
I won't explain what I don't want to explain.

Either let me troll, or lets talk about something else.

LALALA

[Childs~]

VOTE: Norris

[Childs~]

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

[Childs~]

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

[Childs~]

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

Don't forget the LaLaLa posts

I mean if trolling is a free pass to being townread as some people seem to be implying why don't we all just troll and random lim people everday?

[Childs~]

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

If Thing Norris is incapable of not trolling I'm not sure how jumping into another body is going to change anything

why are you defending a troll old man?

do you like being trolled?

as for your question, he trolls today to "appear" town because his actions are "too scum to be scum" and then changelings to someone, I can totally see scum trying to pull that off

[Childs~]

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

On a similar flip side, if he's town and starts solving and not trolling later on someone might case that as having been assimilated

this is tea leaf reading type of stuff

It's still antitown behavior to answer like he did to a simple explain your thought process question

[Childs~]

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

cool story bro.

[Childs~]

Clark what do you think about norris overall

[Childs~]

if we don't have any better leads by the end of the day I'd be down to incinerate Norris but I'm not going to waste my time trying to sort some troll.

you know what could fix that? maybe start liming trolls first to discourage such behavior?

but anyway you at least aknowledge that it's a possible and deserved lim

[Childs~]

okay I got a bit emotional there, back to bussiness

Clark what do you think about norris overall

Without the trolling I'd put Norris on the town side of Null. With the trolling they drop to the scummier side of null.

you see, I'm pretty much there, he was FINE until that unnecesary attitude

[Childs~]

165 and 166 from Nauls also seem like projection - he calls 116
a possible chainsaw defence but isn't that what 165 could be - a defence of Palmer by attacking the person criticising Palmer?

This is nonsensical to me. I disagreed with an argument someone made calling someone else scum, therefore it’s odd for me to theorize on a potential chainsaw defense??
and this is all implying that I’m scrutinizing my own posts for possible negative interpretations of them, which I happen not to be doing because yknow, I’m a townie.
I’m seriously confused as to how this is an actual point being made.

by the way what is a chainsaw defense? honest question

[Childs~]

165 and 166 from Nauls also seem like projection - he calls 116
a possible chainsaw defence but isn't that what 165 could be - a defence of Palmer by attacking the person criticising Palmer?

This is nonsensical to me. I disagreed with an argument someone made calling someone else scum, therefore it’s odd for me to theorize on a potential chainsaw defense??
and this is all implying that I’m scrutinizing my own posts for possible negative interpretations of them, which I happen not to be doing because yknow, I’m a townie.
I’m seriously confused as to how this is an actual point being made.

by the way what is a chainsaw defense? honest question

A chainsaw defence is a way for scum to indirectly defend their partner.
Let’s say player A and player B are scum and player C accuses player A of being scum, player B could step in and discredit/throw out a scumread on player C to make their partner safer.

In other words: “ a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker”

oh I see, thanks

[Childs~]

I don't know how I feel about the fact that Windows just listed the posts of Lars that I consider the worst from him, and then called them genuine attempts to solve.

And something about Windows' joke-reason to townread Lars feels really forced, though I guess I might be conf-biasing here.

are you talking about 271?

[Childs~]

I don't really get the town reads on Childs, he is still firmly in my null pile.

@MacReady, do you scum read anyone other than Clark?

maybe I'm just a sweel guy?

anyway I thought you might be mistaking him for mcready who was talking about lars's reads

list that I found okayish and was curious about it

[Childs~]

My thoughts are that most of us often don't read the game linearly. I sometimes skip ahead, or return to previous parts, and I definitely think that "backreading" or "being caught up" are not binary states. And when talking about whether I've "read the game", I don't often bother clarifying things like these because it's unnecessary typing that doesn't actually help anyone read me. So I can imagine a similar confusing thought process happening with other people as well.

Which is why I am inherently suspicious of someone trying to force out such a contradiction.

Well I can resonate with this because I find myself re-reading A LOT because (and particularly in this Game) until a certain point I can't quite Match faces with names that easily but I can form a read from recent events and unless I'm trying to make up a story I shouldn't need so much time because the reaction is genuine

Of course scum can also do this but it's a Lot harder to fake

Si I'm on your side in this one, I think Windows even thought I get his point, he is reading too much into it or scumforging it

[Childs~]

Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.

Yeah I'm getting LHF vibes

What's LHF?

[Childs~]

low hanging fruit

it's basically like they're an "easy" target that scum feel safe to jump on (assuming the LHF is town of course)

so if you think norris is town it puts some people into question, usually people who don't really look like they attempted actually sorting the slot

obviously this is all in a vacuum so you have to apply it situationally but that's the feeling i'm getting at the moment

Okay i AM familiar with the term, LHF just didn't click for me

Do you agree it can be the other way around I hope?

As in scum theatre

[Childs~]

Norris (4): Nauls, Lars, Copper, Childs
Clark (3): MacReady, Garry, Blair
Copper (3): Clark, Bennings, Windows

Man, do these wagons give me a bad feeling.

VOTE: Windows

I often see splits like this as "at least one of them is a scum being voted"

yet you voted outside of them

[Childs~]

If you read my posts, you will notice that I don't scumread any of the three wagons! And I DO scumread multiple people voting for those wagons!

In addition to that, I do not care about baseless VCA!

what is VCA?

I'm not saying you necessarily have to scumread them btw, I'm just saying odds are one of those is correct

[Childs~]

Vote count analysis.

Why are the odds that one of those is correct? Besides the pure mathematical probability, which is true for any group of 3.

first of, i said at least 1 we could also be looking at 2 things being judged which could explain why the game feels like a gun stand off right now

second, there's 3 things and 3 people voting outside of the 3 main wagons what's more possible that the things are all outside or inside?

of course it is more possible they are inside,

things want to blend in

, which in my eyes gives you, fuchs and windows +town,

third, why isn't there a larger wagon but it's split if all of this players are fairly active? is not like you can't make a case for any of the 3...

this my friend means that we are probably looking at a 2 town-1scum or 1 town-2scum split wagons

this is my hypothesis, things are strugling to push for a town vote.

if i put myself out of the equation it's 9 people to look at

[Childs~]

I meant norris not windows, despite the fact that I'm voting him

[Childs~]

Spoiler:

to be frank my vote on him was out of spite rather than logic, because my soul tells me to vote people like him

[Childs~]

Or maybe these are three town wagons and the things don't give two shits about pushing town wagons when there's no threat for them. But I dunno.

what are the odds of that?

for me it's pretty slim

UNVOTE:

[Childs~]

Like it was pretty clear in my post, the reason I don’t want Clark voted isn’t because of you, it’s because we could get fucked over pretty hard, especially considering the game’s most important mechanic.

Something else that at least needs to be taken into consideration, is that this game may involve power roles. So if someone is run up to E-1 and claims a useful power role then that is extra temptation for scum to quickhammer.
I wonder if we should declare intent to vote, if someone is E-2, and if they are E-2 with two people declaring intent then they claim?

this is absolutly correct

I cast my imaginary vote on Clark

[Childs~]

well that was enought ime for a claim VOTE: Clark

[Childs~]

Hi friends!

Just letting you know that y'all should be tracking posting times from various folks.

Now, granted! Won't help for everyone since people like me talk for like 16 hours per day, buuuuuut, you should be tracking both the TIMES they post and what day of the WEEK they post AT those times. (For instance I can post 12 hours apart on some different days but the days that're 12 pm are usually always the same and the days that're 12 am are usually always the same, as an example.)

If someone's posting time changes overnight, probably scum!

Tbh I think the mechanic while fascinating won't actually be used by the scum for exactly that reason; too easy to get caught because this isn't the same rl environment of an epicmafia 'guiser.

Still tho, worth checking out just in case some scum's stupid enough to try.

Anyway, reading now!

[Childs~]

VOTE: Childs

OMGUS
VOTE: Fuchs

[Childs~]

VOTE: Childs

OMGUS!
VOTE: Clark

[Childs~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Funny, mine is that you're scum if he isn't.

Spoiler: notes up to this point

Windows town
Lars town? (Definitely if Norris is actually scum)
(36 makes him def town)
Fuchs actually town
Palmer town page one, less so after
MacReady town

Garry def not scum with Clark, might be town?
Looks more town as things are going.

Blair, not gonna bother reading, town enough for now.

Copper scum? (Not with Clark probs.)
Clark scum.
Norris possible scum

[Childs~]

I agree with the sentiment in the sense that Copper (and Clark for that matter) both have an over-explainy, formal kind of tone that I'd put as +Scum.
Because of the shading, Copper/Child probably not scum together.
Lars prob-town.

I like this for town.

[Childs~]

This post is pretty scummy... like "let me clearly describe my thought process around what you've said because I'm such a townie town " the "nice try" rubs me the wrong way
It's kind of a meh response to the TBH thing in general, to just go "heehee, it's NAI!". Feels less like Norris naturally found it to be NAI and more like Norris just not being attracted to the thought of jumping on that wagon.
Hard to put into exact words but this feels very performative. Plus I don't like the vote on Windows, their entrance was the best in my opinion.
VOTE: Norris

Not sure if tryharding town or scum tbh.

[Childs~]

UNVOTE: Clark

I fell asleep at my keyboard, current obligations keep me from catching up, but I have VERY strong reasons to believe the Jailkeeper claim.

I want a confirmation that it's an ungated Jailkeeper, because if it is, then there's something very important to tell y'all.

[Childs~]

Mac - The vast majority of posts have been about my slot and pushing it as scum. There are a few other reads here and there but honestly not a lot. 311 is like the only post that actually tries to look at analysing someone then it's straight back to pushing me. I think Mac's play has been very safe so far which comes from the set-up. I don't think this sort of play would hold up in a normal game later than day 2 at which point it would be picked at for not being solving. But picking an easy to push slot and just keeping on the pressure day one then assimilating away when it flips town.

Copper - Copper just hasn't really said much all game (not that I'm one to talk to be fair). Some tonal/gut reads at the beginning of the game which is all well and good but they haven't developed into anything. The there was the pointless discussion about fake tunnelling as scum and then pushing the troll slot which I think is town

Spoiler:

Bit of an aside, but theses two posts make me want to consider a Mac/Copper team. Playing both sides of a slot and and trying to get traction of an entirely irrelevant question by a partner.

This might seem sort of off-topic but I'm still curious and would be interested how people answer - are you calling scum 'scum' this game, or 'Thing' ?

"Scum"

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Fuchs - already talked about

those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three

My strongest townread is still Garry, then probably Childs.

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

[Childs~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

This is VERY important,

@Clark~

[Childs~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

It does require that y'all can make sure that a Thing doesn’t take over an account, which this strategy might do, but I believe that we can, genuinely, break the game open from the Things having no prs aside from body snatching and flip less nightkills.

I think that this game was balanced around requiring the Things to bodyswap, and if we deny them that tool, we have a huge advantage.

I NEED Clark to confirm that he doesn’t have certain gates on his role, though.

[Childs~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

It does require that y'all can make sure that a Thing doesn’t take over an account, which this strategy might do, but I believe that we can, genuinely, break the game open from the Things having no prs aside from body snatching and flip less nightkills.

I think that this game was balanced around requiring the Things to bodyswap, and if we deny them that tool, we have a huge advantage.

I NEED Clark to confirm that he doesn’t have certain gates on his role, though.

I would prefer if everyone unvoted Clark right now, because regardless, I very strongly believe the claim.

[Childs~]

Setup

This game uses a

closed

setup. The following information about the game is publicly known.

The Thing

Setup

• 10 Humans
  
  
• 3 Things

Mechanics

• The
  Things
  have daytalk.
  
• The roles of players
  will not
  be revealed on death.
  
• Players who are eliminated during the day
  will
  have their alignment revealed. Players who die during the night
  will not
  .
  
• Assimilation:
  During the night phase, the
  Things
  can choose to have one of their members "Assimilate" the nightkill. If that
  Thing
  successfully carries out the nightkill on its intended target, it will "assimilate" the alternate account of the killed player and gain control of it. The
  Thing
  will lose control of its original account, and it will flip as having died during the night phase instead.
  
• There is no limit to the number of times a
  Thing
  can jump to a new account.
  
• Assimilation is optional for
  Things
  . They do not have to jump to a new account if they do not wish to do so.
  
• There exists at least one Vanilla Townie in this game. Non-vanilla roles may also exist.
  
• Things do not have powers beyond the factional kill and assimilation.
  
• Night actions will be resolved on their
  original target
  . Assimilation takes place
  last
  in the order of Night Action Resolution.

Spoiler: Night Action Resolution Order

1. Hide
   
2. Bus Drive
   
3. Block
   
4. Redirect
   
5. Protect
   
6. Miscellaneous
   
7. Kill
   
8. Inspect
   
9. Assimilate

An action being present in this list does not necessarily mean there is a role in the game capable of performing that type of action.

Spoiler: Sample Human Role PM

Captain Blake

Welcome,

Captain Blake

. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities, your only tools are your voice and your vote.

You win when there are no more

Things

remaining.

Confirm by replying with your role name and one of the Anonymous Game Rules.

Spoiler: Sample Thing Role PM

Captain Blake

Welcome,

Captain Blake

. You are a

Thing

.

Your partners are

[Playername]

and

[Playername]

. You may speak with them at any time in your private topic, located here:

[PT link]

Each night phase, one of you or your teammates may kill a player, removing them from the game.

Assimilate:

If you are he one carrying the factional kill, you may choose to assimilate your target. This will give you control of the killed player's account, taking it away from them. You will lose access to your current account, and it will flip as having died overnight. Usage of this ability is optional.

You win when you reach parity with the

Humans

, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Confirm by replying with your role name and one of the Anonymous Game Rules.

MOD PETAPAN: If a Thing assimilated a power role, would they be able to use it?

[Childs~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

Yes, I can act N1

Okay, that's what I needed to hear.

CLAIM: I am a Novice Vigilante.

Aside from the novice, I am ungated.

Clark should target me N1.

From there, we can discuss strategy, but the basic rule for D2 should be that we clearly and unambiguously select my target, and have Clark not jailkeep them.

We can discuss the specifics later, but Clark is always town, here.

[Childs~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?

As in, can act N1?

Yes, I can act N1

Okay, that's what I needed to hear.

CLAIM: I am a Novice Vigilante.

Aside from the novice, I am ungated.

Clark should target me N1.

From there, we can discuss strategy, but the basic rule for D2 should be that we clearly and unambiguously select my target, and have Clark not jailkeep them.

We can discuss the specifics later, but Clark is always town, here.

And to be clear--absolutely no WIFOMing the N1 target.

No saying that you will protect me, then trying a hero-jailkeep out of greed, in the hopes that scum don't shoot me.

Me, and always me, N1, because with this, the scum might just be desperate enough to try and kill me in spite of the Jailkeeper, in the hopes of the Jailkeeper going elsewhere. They genuinely might have no choice.

So, Clark is just town, here.

Even in the unlikely scenario where he just so HAPPENED to claim the perfect fakeclaim, he can't shoot me N1 without getting himself eliminated.

Well, he could try, and then either assimilate me or claim he lost a WIFOM battle, but as long as you can tell that I haven't been replaced (should be easy enough ), that closes one door and this post stating no WIFOMimg the protection should close the other door, too.

Basically there’s no world where scum should come out ahead here, town should always come out on top.

[Childs~]

I don't see how you being a novice vig proves that Clark is town or will enable us to 'test' her overnight.

It’s quite simple.

If there is ever a night with two deaths, it's proven I shot that night--thus, could not have been assimilated on any prior night.

If I shoot a target and my target doesn’t die, then the only options are that both myself and Clark are scum,
Or that both Clark and myself are town.

If I live long enough to shoot, then Clark was protecting me regardless of alignment.

It's been pointed out that Clark could just assimilate. No fucking duh, that's why we pay attention to when every slot is posting and how they are posting--looking not only for a deviation, but ALSO any slot matching what Clark was doing previously.

Clark would need to mask NOT ONLY their own time, BUT ALSO match the time of the target--which limits the options enough to make body swapping nigh impossible.

As for why Jailkeeper is a real claim, you guys DO play Normals, right???

Jailkeeper is THE role you pair with Vig.
I asked for information on gates specifically because that combo in of itself if entirely ungated is borderline balanced for a 13p game. It opens up a combo that is incredibly stiffling.
So no fucking shit I am defending Clark, now.

Clark is town.

Remember: scum have no power roles beyond the assimilation mechanism.

So then, the combo can only be broken by scum attempting the assimilation mechanic, which is why we need to deny them viability of it.

No assimilation viability, no ability to break the broken vig jk combo.

[Childs~]

If successful assimilation is as hard as you make it sound - "nigh impossible" - doesn't that mean the JK plus vig combo is at best "borderline balanced" in this game also?

Well the mod wouldn't balance on assimilation being difficult, he'd balance if anything off the opposite--which means we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise.

[Childs~]

I think Childs is greatly overestimating this town's ability to successfully figure out assimilations.

Well, there’s a simple solution to that:
Get better.

Unironically.

Just have a posting style which is hard to continuously replicate long-term, making it nearly impossible to fake. The closer to your natural, the better; the less generic, the better.

And then just pay attention to others.

It's not that hard to do.

[Childs~]

I don't really like the plan of childs.
As said by Mac, novice vig doesn't imply town!Clark.

Yes it does, because Jailkeeper and Vigilante are meant to be paired together.

And, let me drop this bombshell:

WHAT MAKES CLARK LOOK LIKE SCUM TO YOU?

Serious question.

Would it be a lack of content?
Would it be the content being posted being scummy?
Both?
The claim into the above? The above into claim?
All valid, but follow along with me, here, that is important.

So you think BY PLAY that Clark is scum, yes???

Alrighty then.

Let's work with that!

WHAT'S THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO IF WE ELIMINATE A TOWN-CLARK?

We lose a Jailkeeper and me, with no scum dead and the two strongest TPRs dead before D2.

Alright, so let's cover the inverse, then!

WHAT'S THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO IF WE LET A SCUM-CLARK LIVE D1?

You've already given the answer to this repeatedly, the stupidly obvious,
Clark hops to a new body.

Okay but here's the most important part and why this fear mongering is fucking stupidity incarnated:

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT ON D2 IN THE DISGUISED PLAYER'S BODY, CLARK WILL SOMEHOW MAGICALLY IMPROVE IN PLAY AS SCUM?

Clark is scummy as fuck by play, enough to get run up today.

Even if he's scum, that trait ain't magically going to disappear overnight from possessing a new body.
The scumminess of his content would still be there--just in a different body.

So, what's the risk?
Clark's scummy enough to be wagoner right now, he's scummy enough to be wagoner on whoever he'd hop to if he's scum.

[Childs~]

I'm not particularly interested in altering the way I post for the sake of making assimilation harder. It's time and effort I'd rather spend elsewhere, and I don't find the idea of making the game's most interesting mechanic unfeasible to be a fun way to play. It might give us a slight edge but I'm not interested in it. Not gonna look at hours people are online either for similar reasons. Ultimately I respect the setup and the mafia members enough that I want us to be able to play the game properly.
I will do my best to pick apart the way people write for the sake of finding assimilation, though, because that actually seems to be in spirit with the game.

Mechanics are meant to be used. If we shut down the scum's ability to use the mechnic, we invented our own mechanics which effectively generates a lead from nothing.

[Childs~]

If successful assimilation is as hard as you make it sound - "nigh impossible" - doesn't that mean the JK plus vig combo is at best "borderline balanced" in this game also?

Well the mod wouldn't balance on assimilation being difficult, he'd balance if anything off the opposite--which means we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise.

It is pretty wild to make an assertion about the needed PRs to balance towns power when there are exactly 2 claimed slots.

Like, this has the built in assumption that there are not other PRs floating out

Actually, no, it doesn't.

I've never claimed that our power is going to be just two roles. It's not, i just see no reason to say what it WOULD be.

But, Jailkeeper with my role is definitely the MAJORITY of the power.
Not all of it.
But hands-down the strongest two roles, designed to work in tandem.

[Childs~]

(Clark uses they/she)

Sorry, am in rush and phoneposting, hard to check.

Give me time to not be on mobile and I can engage better.

But Clark is town.

[Childs~]

why do you think it's unlikely for scun to have this role?

We know that scum can't have any roles, and thus, any claim they have will inherently be a fakeclaim made with no setup information--
No Informed.
No power role.

Unless the mod in pregame gave them safeclaims, they would need to invent any and every claim they would make, and Jailkeeper is not a good fakeclaim for scum to make.

It is a role that if you want to fake it, you have to give up the nightkill, in a game where the scum may lose a nightkill by some other means.
If you fake it, the town can potentially gain a mislim from the fake of it.
Any player who you claim to have blocked that is revealed to not have been blocked, contradicts your claim, and as an ungated jailkeeper claim, that makes them forced to claim a target each night and be held accountable for it.
Jailkeepers are a strong tool at preventing the scum mechanic from working, too, as it limits who scum can assimilate via the claim.
More than that, jailkeeper is a town protective role with a high chance of being disbelieved. The best case scenario the scum could hope for is a counterclaim, since there's almost a guarantee of town having a protective role.

Are any of these slam-dunk?
Well no.

But if Clark made a jailkeeper fakeclaim, it was made with no information and yet

just so happened

to claim the ONE role which would make me think they're town.

Given the choice between
"Clark is scum who got really really

really

lucky in what to claim",
versus,
"Clark is actually a jailkeeper", the latter is a lot simpler than the former.

[Childs~]

It being said under the quote for post 79, while saying up to this point, feels like it should mean that it was your notes up to post 79, but I wanted to check

You are correct!

We can test a jailkeeper claim in this game because scum can't actually have a roleblocker but this risks letting Clark jump into a new body if she is a thing

I am aware of this risk.

I feel it is not an actual risk, because Clark will still be Clark, even if she were scum and stole the body of a different player.

Plus, testing the claim would also involve outing another PR.

And now that I willingly outed myself, we can do precisely that.

Based on the mechanics of the game, I find it doubtful we have a vigilante. And therefore, there would be no mechanical advantage for scum to have a jailkeeper instead of a roleblocker -- unless peta put it in there just for the fake out.

For the record, this is the post that made me realize I needed to claim--there was mechspech that there wasn't a vigilante, and therefore, lacking a vigilante, Clark would be more likely scum.

As a vigilante, I knew there was a vigilante, and that with a vigilante, Clark is not in fact likely scum but rather the opposite.

And give up that power role's ability for the night.

That is one of the reasons why I wanted to out myself btw.

I

agree

with the conclusion that my vig shot is anti-town to actually use.
I

agree

with it actually going through as being bad for the town.

So the best option isn't for me to make a shot with the intent of having it succeed--my best option is to make a shot with the explicit intend of having my night action fail.

Ergo, have the jailkeeper target me N1 and after that either me or share my target.
It's worth discussing the merit behind me confirming my vig power with a shot.
But my actual preference would be to attempt a vig shot and have the jailkeep cause it to fail.

(I don't trust my accuracy with a vig anyway. )

[Childs~]

Even if the test confirms her as town, we still don't know whether the slot will actually

stay

town, because assimilation is possible.

Scum assimilating into Clark will be shown the moment my kill actually goes through during the night.

A scum Clark assimilating into someone else would be shown by virtue of Clark being Clark.

Unless you want to argue that Clark is magically going to improve their play when hopping bodies, the content you see from Clark now will be the content Clark produces regardless of account they're playing in.

Tell me, do you think that if Clark took over your account, she would post the way that you are? That her content would be similar to what you are posting?

Because that would require Clark to be a scum player that somehow is obvious enough to be caught D1, magically suddenly inexplicably improving their play by swapping accounts.

You're not gonna sell me on the probability of that narrative, because balance of probability: what you see now is Clark's skill level regardless. If Clark is scum, Clark is bad scum; Clark is still going to be bad scum if taking over an account like yours or mine, and wouldn't be able to properly act like town.

[Childs~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' here

It's quite simple.

If I shoot and my target doesn't die, my shot failed due to a town PR--Clark, in this case.

Whenever that happens, Clark cannot be scum.
If my shot fails N2, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N3, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N4, Clark is town.
Every night my shot fails, Clark is confirmed to be town.

If Clark is alive and my shot ever succeeds--then Clark is confirmed to be scum.

This generates two guaranteed town for as long as both Clark and I live. (With an asterisk that you have to be able to tell that I'm not a Thing, which like--if you can't, then you're pretty dumb tbh. ) Two guaranteed innocents is effectively masons in this game.

And I am confirmed to be town the first night my shot succeeds.
If my shot succeeds N2, I could not have been scum on D1 or D2.
If my shot succeeds N4, I could not have been scum on D1, D2, D3, or D4.

So when the scum would break the loop above, they would by necessity run into the issue of me confirming they had done so.

If they kill Clark and replace her, then they out the

[Childs~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' here

It's quite simple.

If I shoot and my target doesn't die, my shot failed due to a town PR--Clark, in this case.

Whenever that happens, Clark cannot be scum.
If my shot fails N2, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N3, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N4, Clark is town.
Every night my shot fails, Clark is confirmed to be town.

If Clark is alive and my shot ever succeeds--then Clark is confirmed to be scum.

This generates two guaranteed town for as long as both Clark and I live. (With an asterisk that you have to be able to tell that I'm not a Thing, which like--if you can't, then you're pretty dumb tbh. ) Two guaranteed innocents is effectively masons in this game.

And I am confirmed to be town the first night my shot succeeds.
If my shot succeeds N2, I could not have been scum on D1 or D2.
If my shot succeeds N4, I could not have been scum on D1, D2, D3, or D4.

So when the scum would break the loop above, they would by necessity run into the issue of me confirming they had done so.

If they kill Clark and replace her, then they out the

This hit submit before I wanted it to.


If I shoot and my target doesn't die, my shot failed due to a town PR--Clark, in this case.

Whenever that happens, Clark cannot be scum.
If my shot fails N2, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N3, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N4, Clark is town.
Every night my shot fails, Clark is confirmed to be town.

If Clark is alive and my shot ever succeeds--then Clark is confirmed to be scum.

This generates two guaranteed town for as long as both Clark and I live. (With an asterisk that you have to be able to tell that I'm not a Thing, which like--if you can't, then you're pretty dumb tbh. ) Two guaranteed innocents is effectively masons in this game.

And I am confirmed to be town the first night my shot succeeds.
If my shot succeeds N2, I could not have been scum on D1 or D2.
If my shot succeeds N4, I could not have been scum on D1, D2, D3, or D4.

So when the scum would break the loop above, they would by necessity run into the issue of me confirming they had done so.

If they kill Clark and replace her, then they out the Clark account's current holder as being scum.
If Clark is scum, then Clark is outed as scum.

There are only two potential weaknesses to the strategy.
The first is both slots being scum (or me being replaced N1 with Clark as scum)--with so much as basic scumhunting and basic checking to make sure a replacement hasn't happened, this won't be possible. (I'm town, and if I am replaced N1, I'd frankly love to see the scum

try

to keep my posting style up and not slip up. I know people can do it short-term but long-term they simply can't.)

The second is Clark being scum and jumping away N1--but I have repeatedly explained why I don't think this is an issue. Clark's not magically going to improve their play tomorrow by hopping hosts. Clark's going to still be scum in their new body, arguably even more than they currently are. Who could Clark possibly possess to not make it immediately obvious she has possessed them?

The failure conditions both rely on the scum being able to use their one and only mechanic, and get away with it. Lacking that, they simply are unable to counter it. We either get a guaranteed scum in the form of Clark (and we eliminate Clark or whoever Clark hopped into because Clark will still be obviously Clark), or we get guaranteed town that the scum need to spend time to break the loop of, and which still can be costly to them.
In either case, the scum are boxed in.

If Clark is scum, she gets found out regardless of whether she stays in her body or swaps bodies.

If Clark is town, then the two town are able to form a loop that as long as scum leave up, limits their mislim options. They can't kill me N1, and if they kill Clark, then I still get my shot off.

It's win-win.

[Childs~]

if they actually are a vig, I think that they should probably never fire.
this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day

Why never fire when I can have a jailkeeper block me or target my target to effectively produce the same result?

As long as I announce my target, and as long as the jailkeeper is either on me or my target, my shot should never go through--effectively, never firing.

I was open to discussing the merits of letting my shot go through N2, but I still overall leaned towards the strategy of having my shot be perma-blocked and thus, perma-confing Clark as long as they live.

[Childs~]

That relies on:
- tying up potential PR's until day3 (and thus making this a topic of discussion until then)
- Neither of them deviating from the plan
- no bodyswapping shenanigans

I have made it clear that Clark is not allowed any excuses in deviating from the plan--protection on me, always, no WIFOMing it. That makes any deviation impossible to justify.

I as the one with the vig shot have no deviation necessary--the plan makes it so that no matter what I do, no kill happens.

Tying me up specifically is, arguably, a good thing--I agree that my shot going through is negative utility. So me effectively not using it by having it be "tied up" is a

good

thing. Yes, it would tie up the jailkeeper, but having an alive jailkeeper tied up is more useful than having a dead jailkeeper "tied up" via being the D1 elimination, now, isn't it? A living town PR is better than a dead D1 town PR.

As for the bodyswapping, that's why I've reiterated the importance of shutting down that mechanic and paying attention. Make it impossible for scum to pull it off, and you deny the scum a tool that the setup was balanced around them being able to use.

[Childs~]

Cross shooting at one another would be better in basically every way lmao.

Cross-shooting is fully an option.

It doesn't matter who I target, so long as I announce it--if my target doesn't die, then Clark stopped the shot from going through, either by jailkeeping me or jailkeeping my target.

If it satisfied you, my target could be Clark. The end result is the same. Clark can't be a jailkeeper if my shot goes through, but is a jailkeeper if I shoot and my target doesn't die.

The things to discuss are who I should target;
Whether Clark should stop my shot (I believe she should);
If stopping my shot, whether it should be jailkeeping me or jailkeeping my target;
If Clark is not stopping my shot (I believe they should), where Clark

should

go.

Your plan is not a full proof plan, your plan revolves around the benefits if clark is town and broadly dismisss the negative if clark is scum by saying assimilation is impossible to pull off.

Well I have working understanding of Vig/Jailkeeper setups (quite extensively so, as it'd turn out!), so yes, my default assumption is in fact that Clark is town because role-wise that is what a Jailkeeper claim is with me being a vig.

But

even if I am wrong

, the negative if Clark is scum is a nonissue because, yes: Clark assimilating is going to be impossible to pull off.

The proof in Clark pulling off a successful assimilation being impossible is in that Clark is being wagoned in the first place. If she is a bad enough scum player to get wagoned on D1, her play isn't going to magically become better by being in a different player's slot. Her style was enough to get her run up on D1. Presumably if she was scum she was still trying to look town yet couldn't pull it off.
...What makes you think that she could suddenly pull it off when trying to impersonate a slot? She's clearly not doing good enough on D1. If she had a versatile enough scumgame to allow her to do that, then she would have simply pivoted her D1 play. It is much much much easier for a skilled scum player to avoid being wagoned on D1;
It is much much much easier for a skilled scum player to, if they

are

wagoned, adjust their play to get out of it.

That Clark has done neither of those suggests Clark is not a skilled scum player.

And lacking the skills to be a good scum player, Clark is going to be a bad scum no matter what account they are on.

[Childs~]

Your statement was that "we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise"
This is not a statement that can be made with just the information that is available.

Technically, yes, but the thing about roles is that there are only so many roles you can pair them with.

You

cannot

pair a town vig with a town doctor, or any protective role with zero downsides to it. (For instance, a bulletproof townie.)

You can have a

lack

of protective roles, but in this game, a lack of protective roles with the vig is incredibly unlikely--one successful vig shot brings the game onto evens. I'd need to shoot twice in order to bring the game to odds. And that doesn't actually give the town an extra mislim, it just moves two eliminations from the town into a single town player's hands.

The only way for a vig going through to give the town an extra elimination is with a killstopper.

So the existence of a vig means that the existence of a killstopper is guaranteed, but the killstopper cannot be a killstopper with no downside.

A roleblocker is possible, but would arguably be even stronger for the town than a jailkeeper would be--a roleblocker causing a lack of scum kill is an outright guilty, whereas a jailkeeper can be argued either way. A roleblocker gives the player using it a clear and unambiguous type of slot to target. A roleblocker is less likely to have negative utility in blocking a town PR, but is still conftown if they do manage to block a town PR because with scum having no power roles, confirmation of a role failure confirms the cause of the role failure to be town.

A jailkeeper is, quite simply: the easiest to balance a vig around because the balancing mechanic is simple, intuitive, self-explanatory, and tried and true. Jailkeeper can protect or block, but not do both; vig can shoot, but not both shoot and be protected.

Mechanically the two roles have such established synergy that to not have a jailkeeper would leave the setup a lot more confusing and difficult to balance.

I can explain further, but it would genuinely be antitown to hand scum a roadmap to what sorts of roles are in the game, I think you'd agree.

Like, can you really not imagine ANY OTHER combination of town Power Roles that could be balanced with Vigilante + (insert unknown, unclaimed, PRs).
There are infinite combinations of a vig + 9 other townies, that don't have a jailkeeper, that could be balanced in this game, and you are proclaiming that none of those are possible.

Because most of them aren't. Vig is such a game-altering role that just the presence of a vig (especially with the gate I have) means that you need to balance the game around far more carefully.

The vig-JK pairing is a balance pairing that is a no-brainer. The vig having my modifier actually increases the odds of the jailkeeper being present, because the more you alter the vig role, the more the town roles need to be made more swingy/contrived/etc.

Is it a 100% guaranteed to be true town role?

No.

Is it 90% likely?

Yes.

[Childs~]

Just a follow up for Childs, who even do you want us to kill over Clark?

I don't know, I didn't catch up yet.

I'd look at the Clark wagon tho--regardless of Clark's alignment, that wagon ain't pure.

[Childs~]

I actually think that the best use of that role would have been to play like you are a VT, holstering for several nights, until maybe late into the game, but that is now impossible so :shrug:

It's not impossible!

With a jailkeeper blocking me, I am effectively a VT, now, aren't I?

That's why I claimed in the first place!

To set that up.

[Childs~]

On a different note: Childs, if Clark is scum, how/when do you propose taking care of the slot?

The day my shot succeeds, obviously. Or if Clark shows up dead N1.

Is your plan to wait until day2 and identify where he assimilated to and lim the slot tomorrow?

Well if they are scum? Yes! Clark's scummy enough today, that ain't magically disappearing D2 regardless of who Clark as scum would hop to.

[Childs~]

INTENT TO HAMMER

Don't really have anything else to say before night, I'll hammer soon if no one's opposed

I am because it's fucking stupid to effectively kill two TPRs in the first game cycle.

I've explained why a scum-Clark can still be found, so there's no actual risk of letting a scum-Clark get away.

There is a very obvious reward in not letting a town jailkeeper be the D1 elimination and letting the vig who specifically claimed to

save

said jailkeeper, be the automatic free scum kill N1 because the scum know that the only town role which could've stopped them was eliminated D1.

[Childs~]

I think there's a fair amount of vca to do in the scum-Clarke world, but that should wait for tomorrow

And in a town-Clark world?

What do we gain then?

For that matter, serious question:

If Clark is scum, where the fuck is the counterwagon to them?

I haven't read the entire game so I haven't seen it all--but from what I've seen it has been Clark at 3-5 votes the entire game and the largest wagons outside of Clark at 2 votes.

[Childs~]

VOTE: Clark
Here you go

Don't try to fucking blame me for you not waiting for me.

[Childs~]

Childs, clark was already hammered

And whose fault is that?

I made it quite clear not to vote Clark.

I made it quite clear I had more to say.

I made it quite clear that I was limited in my availability at the time to explain myself--and right now is the first time I have had that ability.

So don't fucking pretend that this is in any way shape or form anything but YOUR fault. (Collective you, every voter on the wagon.)

WHEN Clark flips town jailkeeper and I die immediately after that, I suppose I should tell you for the future that I lied about having my only gate be Novice, there's another gate beyond that. A quite severe one actually but I wasn't gonna out that without reason. (It's just that now that I'm a guaranteed N1 death I have no choice but to since it won't flip when I die.)

[Childs~]

It is kind of silly to see you simultaneously argue that jailkeeper + vigilante is the most balanced possible combo, while also arguing that you have a full proof game plan to break the game open by combining those two roles.

The plan falls apart if scum can pull off a successful assimilation, I have made that clear.

The assimilation mechanic is meant to balance the JK+Vig combo. (That, plus the extra gate I had which I wasn't going to needlessly reveal.)

Denying the scum the assimilation mechanic being viable means that we break the game by combining the two, because the game isn't going to be designed for the assimilation mechanic to be unviable, the game is going to be designed for the assimilation mechanic to be assumed to be actively used.

So if we deny the scum the assimilation mechanic, then the JK+Vig combo that would otherwise be countered by the assimilation mechanic, suddenly gets elevated from "scum can counter this" to "scum have no counterplay to this".

An easy way of explaining this:
A cop-doc combo for the town can be balanced by a scum roleblocker.
Eliminate the scum roleblocker D1 tho and then the scum are left with no counter against follow-the-cop.

Same principle here.
A Vig-JK combo is balanced by the assimilation mechanic as a counter.
Eliminate scum's ability to use it, and then the scum are left with no counter against the Vig-JK combo.

Which is why the wagon is fucking atrocious because y'all should've seen the mechanical advantage of this.

[Childs~]

You’ve already argued your vig shot is negative utility and you’re novice, in what world are you a guaranteed kill? Confused.

Because power roles cannot be scum, and the scum now have free reign to kill any player without a protective because you just fucking eliminated the only town protective in the game and thus the scum can freely kill any claimed PR to prevent the town any conftown voices.

Since scum don't have any power roles, they can't prevent me from using my role.

Yes, I believe it to be mostly negative utility to use it, because of the drawbacks involved.

But I am still conftown if I actually DO use it, and conftown represents a threat.

That aside from the fact that I am a replacement, and I'm not going to let you fucking forget about the D1 wagon and how it is guaranteed to have scum on it, probably multiple.

[Childs~]

But I do think that it is silly for you to be mad that you said "Give me time to not be on mobile and I can engage better," then not check back for well over a day and a half, and be mad that the entire thread did not sit around and do nothing while you were gone.

That's the amount of time it took me to not be on mobile. And we had the time before deadline to wait.

I was under a prod timer--it took less than a prod timer's worth of time for me to return to the game thread and not be on mobile.

That's plenty acceptable in any game; don't fucking pretend it wasn't.

Yes I have the right to be mad--there's a difference between "not sitting around and do nothing" and fucking hammering to end the day, while waiting.

When the amount of time was unavoidable,
And still under the length of a prod timer,
And we had enough time on the deadline clock.

All of these meant that the rush to hammer is something I can and WILL call out.
It may or may not be scum-driven but it is pro-scum regardless. So town SHOULD be fucking ashamed, and acknowledge how pro-scum it was to not fucking wait.

[Childs~]

I’m still just perplexed as to how claiming JK clears Clark in your eyes, that’s carrying so much weight in your entire perspective

Because of knowing my role and what is needed to make the game balanced and less swingy, jailkeeper was guaranteed to be a real role.

[Childs~]

Childs has some explaining to do.

Well, I was wrong, not much more to say about it than that.

[Childs~]

Even though I think it's unlikely, I do want to confirm first that Childs hasn't been turned into one of them. And also for them to confirm that they are actually capable of shooting tonight, because it would be a tragedy if a scum assimilated away from the guilty.

I have no Simple/Complex gates limiting me to shoot vanillas or PRs, and I am not odd-night, soyeah. I can shoot tonight!

Mind you, I'll only shoot if I have to, since, well. Not gonna hero vig when we have only one scum left in the game.

(Also at that point, we can probably just brute force a win. Technically we should be looking for assimilations every night, but if there's only one scum in the game, then it's not really as necessary.)

[Childs~]

In my mind, the entirety of Clarke's demise points to scum being fairly low-influence - they weren't able to divert the wagon away

Tbh with Windows and Clarke eliminated as Things, it should be fairly easy to find the third, but I don't think we should be trying today given the outcome of today and that tonight the last scum can try to assimilate.

We should look at the N2 kill and see if it looks like they assimilated on D3. If yes, then check for the differences in players; if no, then we can begin to hunt for the final scum.

[Childs~]

Why did my mind go to "eliminate me first, shoot windows if green" instead the other way around.

Because you're town, duh.

[Childs~]

Yeah, seems prudent that Childs reveals if their shot is gated

Oh it has a gate but not any which would stop me from shooting tonight.

[Childs~]

And also for them to confirm that they are actually capable of shooting tonight,

Wouldn't aa newly-scum Childs say they were able to do this regardless?

I mean, yes, but they wouldn't know what gate to claim.

Only the real genuine article knows the gate I have.

Also, while anyone can fake me short-term, faking me long-term is not very easy.

[Childs~]

Well, due to Childs' distinct posting style on Day 1, I am assuming we'll be able to recognize if they're newly-scum.

I mean, you never know!

Someone

could

be stupid enough to try and fake being me.

I just know they haven't yet.

[Childs~]

I guess we will see if Childs is the same

I take it this should suffice.

also I am just going to claim that I am a one shot mailman who sent the message to MacReady to conftown myself for now.

Pretty sure that makes the game pretty much autowin, yeah?

MacReady conftown for now, you conftown for now, Palmers conftown for the result, and me with a very distinctive posting style who can shoot at any time.

That's 4/11 as town with only one scum left alive.

Scum if they jump into the conftown will have to fake being them;
Scum if they don't jump to the conftown will have to dodge eliminations in the remaining.

So, 3/9 conftown tomorrow;
2/7 conftown on D4;
1/5 conftown on D5, so not quite autowin but: very very close, yeah?

[Childs~]

On one hand, day 1 I town read windows and scum read palmer.
On the other hand, this seems like a really dumb play for scum palmer to make unless we are saying the scum team was exactly Lars+Palmer, and Lars scum was confident in their ability to impersonate Childs.
But even then, Windows does not feel like the go to target to fake a guilty on given how scum read he was Day 1.

Pretty much, yeah.

I know they didn't assimilate me (tbh I'd love to see them try, but like: they realistically can't ), so like.

Palmer can't get away with this as scum and is probably just town, so.

When we're ready we can vote Windows.

[Childs~]

Mind you, I'll only shoot if I have to, since, well.

Well, in the current situation, I think you very well do have to shoot if the town misses Today.

I mean,

yeah

, but I ain't voting you, I'm voting your guilty.

Since I can shoot if needed, and the guilty was a clear unambiguous 100% guaranteed guilty, and scum have no power roles: you wouldn't claim a guilty as scum. (That or you were really,

really

stupid and didn't think it through. But like, balance of probability, you're town.)

But if (when, actually) Windows flips scum, I should holster.

Hilarious as it'd be if the town had a near-perfect win with me shooting the last scum N2, I don't trust my read accuracy; my reads aren't worth shit.

[Childs~]

Not gonna hero vig when we have only one scum left in the game.

this is based of palmer's guilty, right?

I mean,

yeah

.

But like. Palmer's guilty is legit.

I buy the 1x cop claim. Bit surprised it's not a gunsmith tbh, but it being a one-shot hard-investigative still tracks with my own gate.

I genuinely don't see how Palmer could possibly be scum, here.

So like. I don't have reason to shoot.

(Granted, I was planning on starting today with a post going something along the lines of, "hey if I see any of you fuckers doubting me, I'm gonna fucking shoot", because, like. I don't

want

to shoot, because, yeah, it's anti-town for me to shoot since--oh wait I'm dumb.

One scum left means that if I shoot scum the game just ends. xD

Alright, so I

can

shoot with it not being nearly as anti-town. IF I announce who I shot, you know that they aren't scum when I shoot. By virtue of there being only one scum left in the game, if the game doesn't end then they were town.

But, my lack of accuracy remains an issue.

I guess I'll shoot if there is a target y'all want dead and you won't blame me for it if they flip town.

But, needs to have consensus and needs to be something that I very clearly acknowledge I'll be doing at the end of the day.

So, def wait on voting out Windows for a bit.

We're 100% guaranteed gonna vote Windows; we never vote outside the 1v1 and we never vote Palmer, here.

But we can wait to actually eliminate Windows.

[Childs~]

Childs, which of the two do you think is better to kill today, and which is better to have you on it the first one flips green?

It's better to kill the guilty than kill the cop.

In the unlikely event Palmer was scum faking a guilty, I just shoot Palmer tonight.

But like.

That's never going to be the case.

We have a hard hard HARD 1v1, here. If Windows flips scum, Palmer is town. Period. I don't shoot Palmer.
If Windows flips town, Palmer is scum. Period. I shoot Palmer.

If Palmer flips town, I shoot Windows, but then we don't have Palmer as conftown.
If Palmers flipped scum, then Windows isn't conftown.

Windows is the better lim here always.

To suggest otherwise is delusional.

[Childs~]

Childs, how do you feel about the mechanical balance of your role and the existance of a 1 shot cop?

It tracks.

I'm a

little

surprised it's not a gunsmith, but like--I was surprised that Clarke wasn't a jailkeeper, so...


...Which is to say. Yes, I think it's balanced.

Do you want me to claim my gate? I don't really think there's a need to but if I did you'd have a better idea of where I'm coming from with my thoughts here.

If they are both in the game, what do you think that that means for the other PRs in the game?

Well, respectfully: I don't think it's pro-town to talk about PRs beyond the claimed ones.

The mailman is proven to exist.
The cop is guaranteed to be real.
I know I am real.

Stating anything beyond that is probably not smart.

Do you think that cop+vig+mailman all fit in this game together?

Yes, I do, for a couple of very specific reasons.

But those reasons are both things I don't think it's good to make public.

[Childs~]

MacReady conftown for now

Blair's ability did not confirm MacReady. It just showed that he had not been assimilated Night 1, but did not tell us if he started as a Thing

Sure, but I buy MacReady being town.

When we're ready we can vote Windows.

Absolutely no one vote windows or palmer until we finish talking with Childs long enough to be confident that they are still the same person

Fair, but like. I think it's pretty obvious.

We def can keep having me speak if y'all aren't satisfied but there's only so many ways to fake being me and only one me who can be the real me.

And, there is things we can discuss I guess so there's no need to rush.

Assuming a Windows scumflip, there'd be one scum in the game tonight.
Which means if I shoot scum the game ends; if there's two flips in a night, whoever I shot was guaranteed to be town and the other kill was either the scum kill or scum assimilating into a town player.

So that gives reason for discussion, but in terms of elimination, as far as I'm concerned, there is no discussion--it's Windows, period. End of discussion.

[Childs~]

But if (when, actually) Windows flips scum, I should holster.

um... the main down side of your PR in this set up (the fact that we don't know if you kill killed scum or town) immediately goes away if there is only 1 scum left lol.

Yes I realized that, I'm a dummy dum dum sometimes.
(If I wasn't dumb I wouldn't have defended Clarke. )

[Childs~]

I buy the 1x cop claim. Bit surprised it's not a gunsmith tbh, but it being a one-shot hard-investigative still tracks with my own gate.

Even in light of the mailman?

Especially in light of the mailman.

And do you think that with cop+vig+mailmain, we would be capped out on PRs at that point? Or do you think there could be more on top of that without it crossing into too much?

Do you

really

want me to setup spec and hand the final scum a guide of what to claim?

'Cause I don't.

I trust Palmer--and in the very unlikely event that I'm wrong, I just shoot Palmer. I don't really see any reason to discuss PRs.

We're gonna go down to one scum regardless before D3.

There's merit to discussing if I should shoot tonight with only one scum left. There's merit to selecting a target for me to shoot (my accuracy is shit, so I don't trust myself, but like, if the town has consensus, can't blame me for following it ), under the assumption of one scum left.
There's technically merit in letting me keep talking to prove I ain't Lars (altho I really don't think it's much of a question at this point ), but like.

The elimination is always Windows.
Windows-town, the vig shot is always on Palmer.
Windows-scum, we're down to one scum.

It's that simple.

[Childs~]

This is only true, if were are judging from the POV of knowing your alignment.

I mean, fair.

But like.

I have a vig shot, and I wasn't assimilated.

I know I was wrong on D1, but ironically that I WAS wrong is probably all the proof you need that I

started

town. You can technically argue that I was trying to save Clarke with my own claim but like--I literally claimed a confirmable role. I'm still alive today. That means I, as scum, would be forced to "prove" it at some point, and eventually, be unable to.

I'm quite confident in my ability to be town even without a shot, but I have a shot and frankly, fuck what I said about not trusting my accuracy. You eliminate Palmer first, then obviously I have to shoot Windows but I'll be hard-tunneled in on the Palmer voters and never vote outside of them for as long as I live. (Or until I believe that the last scum has hopped into a non-Palmer voter.)

[Childs~]

Day 1, Childs use this emoji 6 times in the entirety of the day. Which was definitely enough for it to be noticeable as something that Childs does use
But then today, Childs has used it 12 times in the last 30 mins. Which, given the discrepancy in frequency, feels more like a purposeful imitation of someone who felt like "Childs uses " was a fundamental aspect of pretending to be them

I mean, on D1, if it makes you feel better: I was holding back.

This IS an anonymous account game. I have multiple different styles as town, and I swap between them quickly and easily and on a dime pretty much, so like. It's hard to fake being me, long-term. But on D1 I didn't want someone to know to try and use ':P' so much.

If I used it as much D1 as I would normally be inclined to, then on D2 someone

would

use it as much as I am.

It was specifically me holding back that made it easier for me to identify me as me today.

And like.

I have other traits that are definitively me--how many of them do you think scum can fake? There's sentence structure, there's verbiage used, there's length of posts, there's the way things are described, there's perspective on the game, there's viewpoints, there's thoughts on balance, there's setup spec/mech knowledge. There's a ton to make me be me.

And a lot of it swaps constantly. The me of next post uses a different style of me of past post. Which, yeah, is why I did a lot of what I did D1. I needed to show off that I had more than one style on D1, so that it was clear that on D2 there was clear evidence that I had more than one style still on D2. I also held back in at least one of the styles so that that particular style would be something scum wouldn't try to use, so that when the full thing was there, it was known I was the real deal, if that makes sense.

Basically. Yes, I am using ':P' more right now. It's in part thanks to the fact that I honestly just didn't submit guesses for alts N1 since I figured regardless, I was gonna lose that contest.

[Childs~]

But I am not confident that you are you, and therefore, think I would prefer we kill Palmer first.

Yeah fuck that.

If you push Palmer through I'm gunning for you (haha*) after the fact. I can't literally shoot you since my shot is hard-locked to Windows then, but I ain't gonna let that stand.

(*technically, my vig flavor is a flamethrower, not a gun, but...)

[Childs~]

When we're ready we can vote Windows.

Which was apparently made while still mid catching up on the day's posts.

The guilty on Windows was the first post of the day phase?

Obviously

, while I was catching up, no fucking duh we're not ready to end the day by voting Windows.

But from the very first post of the day, there's an obvious choice for the elimination.

So like.

I don't see what the issue is?

I'm not voting Windows yet, because we're obviously still not ready.

But like. Windows is definitely the elimination.

[Childs~]

You turning my concerns into a threat against me sure does not make me feel better about you that is for sure.

Well, tough.

I'm the one with the gun and if you fucking force me to use it on a target I don't fucking want to use it on by eliminating someone I have full confidence in being town:

You get to deal with the fucking consequences.

I get that I was wrong when I was really fucking sure in Clarke being town.

But that doesn't stop me from having absolute fury if I actually AM right.

There'd be HELL to pay today if Clarke had flipped town.

And there will be HELL to pay tomorrow if you manage to eliminate Palmer.

[Childs~]

There is a missing kill, and we have to all out if we are a protective. If there is a protective, then it is now uncertain if we childs even is scum, or if the kill was stopped, and the protective is outed. If there is not a protective, then we kill Childs dies. I see that that last line would be a pretty strong deterrent for you to do this gambit, and that is part of why I am still thinking and have not voted. If we do go the route of killing Windows first and he flips town, it is important that any protectives out there holster tonight.

For the record I really wanna shoot Fuchs at this point tbh.

I'm not interested in sharing my thoughts on protectives in light of the mailman and cop claims.

There's reasonable caution to be had, sure--but there's a difference between "reasonable caution" and "trying to salvage the scumteam that is in shambles".

And Fuchs pushing the idea that I'm a scum Lars is crossing into the latter.

[Childs~]

Are you saying you being alive today is proof you're town?

I was gonna write a confused "...No?" to this and explain it, but then I realized who the author was and that I'm talking to literal confscum here.

If non-confscum wanna seriously suggest that was what I was saying, then I can clarify, but suffice to say: no, that's not what I was saying.

[Childs~]

This post also does not make me feel better about childs

It should; I literally fucking claimed flavor for my role that I didn't claim at all D1.

My vig is a flamethrower.

Point me to where I said that D1 because I'm pretty damn sure I didn't say what my flavor was D1.

[Childs~]

if you fucking force me to use it on a target I don't fucking want to use it on by eliminating someone I have full confidence in being town

This sentence really says "If you force me to use it on a target I don't want to use it on (said target being confirmed scum in the hypothetical scenario)" lmao

Yeah no fucking shit.

If I am forced to vig someone I wanted to eliminate, I'm gonna be fucking pissed.

Also, whoops, I think that in having said that I accidentally slipped what my gate was.

To be clear, I'm one-shot. A 1-shot Novice Vigilante.

Once, I vig a player with a flamethrower, but can't use it N1. And yeah, it's written into the role PM itself that the target's alignment won't flip. (I wanted to check with the mod about that yesterday, before realizing it was in the original role PM itself and thus, that I didn't need to ask the mod.)

I probably shouldn't have revealed that, but I accidentally let it slip with giving away that I couldn't kill after making a vig N2, so...oops?

[Childs~]

Based off of what?

Based off the fact that they have been consistently putting out posts that exactly match the tone I'd expect them to have, and they've also been doing it real-time and with content that obviously isn't pre-prepared?

To be fair, it doesn't take much for someone to fake what they feel to be me.

It's just that if they weren't actually me, they wouldn't be able to pull off the all of me that I am. There's only one me, and only I can do me properly. Because it's me, natch.

[Childs~]

There is a missing kill, and we have to all out if we are a protective. If there is a protective, then it is now uncertain if we childs even is scum, or if the kill was stopped, and the protective is outed. If there is not a protective, then we kill Childs dies. I see that that last line would be a pretty strong deterrent for you to do this gambit, and that is part of why I am still thinking and have not voted. If we do go the route of killing Windows first and he flips town, it is important that any protectives out there holster tonight.

For the record I really wanna shoot Fuchs at this point tbh.

I'm not interested in sharing my thoughts on protectives in light of the mailman and cop claims.

There's reasonable caution to be had, sure--but there's a difference between "reasonable caution" and "trying to salvage the scumteam that is in shambles".

And Fuchs pushing the idea that I'm a scum Lars is crossing into the latter.

See, you are not even asking if it makes sense for town to be worried about your assimilation.

I literally already addressed that.

Yes

, it makes sense for the town to be worried about my assimilation.

But I am very clearly me, still. Like, transparently self-evidently so, me. I can't be faked convincingly long-term.

And I've already shared aspects of my role that I didn't D1. Not one, but TWO different things. I didn't claim my flavor on D1 and I didn't claim my gate D1. (Btw another thing: I can explain my reason for my posting yesterday with that gate, too. I had good reason for everything I said there and can explain my posts in light of the 1x gate, too.)

Plus, I can explain my D1 thoughts--that's not exactly easy to fake, either. I didn't explain everything on D1 that I wanted to.

There's a difference between having reasonable caution, and pushing paranoia.

A difference between probability/plausibility, and arguing for a

possibility

.

It is

possible

that I am scum.

It is

possible

that Lars assimilated into me.

Possible.

Not probable.

you are the person who said : we need to comb over people's posts to check for assimilation. But then don't even consider the fact that I did just that to spot the emoji discrepency, or to think whether it makes since for a townie, who saw that, to be concerned.

Oh I did, but while the emoji discrepancy is there, quite deliberately so, the total package (as well as the posting volume, time I am around, etc.) is still there, and quite transparently so.

I can't prove I'm me in a single post.

But like--there's more signs of me being me than an emote discrepancy that was intentionally planted by me there, anyway. The mindset is something scum can't fake when trying to impersonate me. They would need to literally justify things that they would have no way of justifying as being a continuation of me.

[Childs~]

I believe you're you, but I don't know what alignment you started with

Fortunately, I have a vig shot that can prove what alignment I am.
I wasn't planning on using it because fuck giving me a vig role (when it is ME having a vig, the use of a vig is best to confirm me as town, not to shoot scum), but I have that tool up my sleeve at any point.

[Childs~]

I went back to see if Childs reads on windows and Palmer day 1 carried over, and realized that every alignment post about both of those slots came before the childs replacement, and is therefore useless information.

Look, I got distracted, okay?

I was planning on catching up, but then I got distracted.

I saw the logic used for Clarke being scum as "oh Clarke's not giving anything, and Clarke made a claim and dipped, and is hiding behind the claim", and I agreed with that logic because by play I was scumreading Clarke.

But then, to make sure, I checked what Clarke had actually claimed, since as a vig I knew that I would have some insight into the town roles--and I saw that it was a jailkeeper, a jailkeeper claim that people were doubting...because it was unlikely for a vig to be in the game.

Something I knew was in fact in the game.

And that got me hyper-focused on trying to save Clarke.

I

did

leave some brief notes on what I did catch up on, mind you, but they were shit notes.

[Childs~]

But I am not confident that you are you, and therefore, think I would prefer we kill Palmer first.

Yeah fuck that.

If you push Palmer through I'm gunning for you (haha*) after the fact.

I can't literally shoot you since my shot is hard-locked to Windows then

, but I ain't gonna let that stand.

(*technically, my vig flavor is a flamethrower, not a gun, but...)

To be clear, if you target anyone outside of the other half of the 50-50 tonight in the event of a townflip I will do my best to lim you tomorrow

See bolded.

[Childs~]

How did your clark plan work if you were one shot?

To be honest?

I was bluffing.

My plan was to have Clarke be parked on me, and then for me to not actually

immediately

shoot, but pretend I had, relying on scum not actually knowing I was lying. I was planning to continuously look at Clarke to see if I felt a Thing had absorbed them, and as long as I felt Clarke was still Clarke, I was gonna holster--and then the first night I felt Clarke was not Clarke (or if Clarke was killed), I'd use my vig.

I claimed mostly to save Clarke yesterday. I left out that I was oneshot to bait scum.

My full stated plan wouldn't have worked since I couldn't take a shot every night. My

actual

plan, if Clarke was a town jailkeeper, would have.

this immediately stops working after night 2 if you really are 1 shot...

I mean, I only have one shot, but I wasn't planning to blow it N2. But if Clarke was a town jailkeeper, the scum wouldn't

know

I hadn't blown a shot N2.

[Childs~]

(Yes I get it, in hindsight Clarke being scum meant that my plan was much much much worse for the town than I thought with me being one-shot. But like, I didn't know, okay?)

[Childs~]

On a different note: Childs, if Clark is scum, how/when do you propose taking care of the slot?

The day my shot succeeds, obviously. Or if Clark shows up dead N1

Like, you were asked point blank when your plan reveals a clark assimilation, and your answer does not make any sense if you are 1 shot

It does if you keep in mind that I was exaggerating in a bit of a lie that was a big bluff.

I am one-shot but I had a plan to shoot the first night I felt like I needed to

actually

test Clarke--not N2, but on every night after that, ask, "is this the night I test?", by reviewing the prior day. Maybe N3, but probably not. And probably N4 regardless.

I was planning on claiming the truth after I took the real shot, and explaining that, no, I didn't actually shoot the other nights.

Me pretending to shoot when I didn't

actually

shoot, after all, could catch scum in a fakeclaim, after all. If they claimed a result expecting it to be true thanks to my shot, but I didn't actually shoot, then I'd have outted a scum because the scum lacked the critical information to know.

I get that the plan had multiple failure conditions, but with Clarke as town, it wasn't a bad plan and I stand by it having been a good idea in theory.

[Childs~]

Scum!you can lie about flavour and who's going to disprove it?

Sure, but scum-me doesn't have a shot to take!

I only half believe the 1shot claim regardless of their alignment

Scum have no PRs, so if the 1-shot is real, the claim is real.

[Childs~]

Childs should absolutely not hero shoot

I mean, I made it quite clear that my accuracy with a vig is shit and I don't want to hero-vig a shot.

But like.

If I were to shoot without being leashed after a Windows-scum elimination it'd be Fuchs because Fuchs looks like he's trying to save Windows.

(And this is why I said that if we want me to shoot after a scum elimination today, I should be leashed.)

[Childs~]

Clark, are you an ungated Jailkeeper?
As in, can act N1?

Yes, I can act N1

Also I'm baffled how an ungated jailkeeper claim made you think Clarke was town. How did this fit in with your novice 1shot vig claim, and you also lied yesterday when you said you were ungated other than novice

It was specifically

because

of my double gates (Novice + 1x) that I thought the Jailkeeper

needed

to be true.

A Novice 1x Vig gets the game on even numbers. Even numbers doesn't actually give the town an extra elimination.
The vig conftowns themselves with a shot, but their target is still left unflipped.

Without the jailkeeper to give a way to get back onto odds, I thought that the setup wouldn't fit.
I was wrong.

And, I said on D1 at the end I had lied about no gate other than novice, so this isn't a new-to-D2 thing:

WHEN Clark flips town jailkeeper and I die immediately after that, I suppose I should tell you for the future that I lied about having my only gate be Novice, there's another gate beyond that.

A quite severe one actually but I wasn't gonna out that without reason

. (It's just that now that I'm a guaranteed N1 death I have no choice but to since it won't flip when I die.)

Admittedly, me having said that means it's not hard for scum to

guess

it was 1x with the other TPRs claiming oneshot.

Buuuuuuuuuuuut, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
It's possible for scum to guess I am oneshot after Palmer claims oneshot if Palmer is town and with Blair claiming oneshot and being town.

...But if Palmer isn't town, then instead of two town PR claims, you've only got one.

And it's much much harder for scum to guess I'm oneshot with only one TPR claimed.

Basically, your options are,

Either

: scum could guess I am oneshot because Palmer is oneshot and Blair is oneshot,

OR

: Scum could not guess I am oneshot because Palmer is scum and Blair is the only TPR fullclaimed.

You can't push the idea that scum could guess I was oneshot and that Palmer is scum claiming oneshot.

The scum wouldn't know what the composition of the town PRs was--if they did, then they'd probably have claimed a gate on the jailkeeper.
So basically, while scum knew I was heavily gated, they couldn't have known I was oneshot.

[Childs~]

You realize this looks quite a lot like partner-you trying to save buddy-Clarke, right?

Oh from the moment Clarke flipped scum, yeah!

But I am town.

I thought Clarke was town.

Also just so y'all know, the narratives that I am scum with Clarke (and apparently Palmer) and that Lars absorbed me (and is scum with Palmer) are kinda sorta--y'know. Polar opposites.

If I was scum enough to look like scum with Clarke, then it's pretty damn unlikely Lars would absorb me, now, isn't it?

[Childs~]

I mean that I have no particular reason to believe that the gate is 1shot, you already lied about the existence of said gate.

Well I said it was a quite severe gate.

I needed to say that in case I was killed and people tried to setup spec under my fake ungated Novice Vig claim--it'd throw off setup spec for them to think that I was stronger than I am.

But I didn't want to give the exact gate on D1, for multiple reasons. Make it harder for scum to fakeclaim, both being me and also PRs.

I didn't know what the setup was like, but hiding the exact gate while specifying it was severe was the right play since it's part of why I believe the cop claim being oneshot.

I didn't specify which gate it was, but how many severe gates do you think there could be? Two-shot maybe. Simple, maybe. But there's only so many severe gates in existence.

...Also btw, it's very subtly so, but even before I confessed the lie of having an extra gate, I did

hint

at my extra gate.

Want me to quote my posts post-claim where I laid the

very very subtle

hints that I was actually gated beyond the Novice? 'Cause I did leave hints.

Spoiler: a few

If I live long enough to shoot

I asked for information on gates specifically because that combo in of itself

if entirely ungated

is borderline balanced for a 13p game. It opens up a combo that is incredibly stifling.

We can test a jailkeeper claim in this game because scum can't actually have a roleblocker but this risks letting Clark jump into a new body if she is a thing

I am aware of this risk.

(This risk was also referring to me being oneshot btw.)

I

agree

with the conclusion that my vig shot is anti-town to actually use.
I

agree

with it actually going through as being bad for the town.

So the best option isn't for me to make a shot with the intent of having it succeed--my best option is to make a shot with the explicit intend of having my night action fail.

Ergo, have the jailkeeper target me N1 and after that either me or share my target.
It's worth discussing the merit behind me confirming my vig power with a shot.
But my actual preference would be to attempt a vig shot and have the jailkeep cause it to fail.

(I don't trust my accuracy with a vig anyway. )

(Okay so a lot of these are a lot more subtle than I thought in hindsight.)

Even if the test confirms her as town, we still don't know whether the slot will actually

stay

town, because assimilation is possible.

Scum assimilating into Clark will be shown the moment my kill actually goes through during the night.

If I shoot and my target doesn't die,

my shot

failed due to a town PR--Clark, in this case.

Whenever that happens, Clark cannot be scum.
If my shot fails N2, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N3, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N4, Clark is town.
Every night my shot fails, Clark is confirmed to be town.

If Clark is alive and my shot ever succeeds--then Clark is confirmed to be scum.

And I am confirmed to be town the first night my shot succeeds.
If my shot succeeds N2, I could not have been scum on D1 or D2.
If my shot succeeds N4, I could not have been scum on D1, D2, D3, or D4.

So when the scum would break the loop above, they would by necessity run into

the issue of me confirming

they had done so.

(I realize this isn't clear, and could be me lying my ass off, but "my shot" was meant to hint that it was

singular

.

They can't kill me N1, and if they kill Clark, then I still get my shot off.

Here it's a lot more clear, tho. I left the hint that "I still get my shot off". 'My shot', not 'a shot'.

My shot implies singular shot; 'a shot' implies plural.

My usage of 'my shot' was a deliberate breadcrumb of having only one.

if they actually are a vig, I think that they should probably never fire.
this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day

Why never fire when I can have a jailkeeper block me or target my target to effectively produce the same result?

As long as I announce my target, and as long as the jailkeeper is either on me or my target, my shot should never go through--effectively, never firing.

I was open to discussing the merits of letting my shot go through N2, but I still overall leaned towards the strategy of having my shot be perma-blocked and thus, perma-confing Clark as long as they live.

Here I was arguably blatant about it tbh.

I as the one with the vig shot

I agree that my shot going through is negative utility. So me effectively not using it by having it be "tied up" is a

good

thing.

Here was another blatant one. "the vig shot". THE vig shot. THE, as in, SINGULAR shot.

"not using IT", IT, as in, SINGULAR.

Admittedly, this isn't slam-dunk, but hey, I was trying to not be blatant about being oneshot so my 'crumbs were incredibly subtle.

one successful vig shot brings the game onto evens

. I'd need to shoot twice in order to bring the game to odds. And that doesn't actually give the town an extra mislim, it just moves two eliminations from the town into a single town player's hands.

The only way for a vig going through to give the town an extra elimination is with a killstopper.

So the existence of a vig means that the existence of a killstopper is guaranteed

I can explain further, but it would genuinely be antitown to hand scum a roadmap to what sorts of roles are in the game, I think you'd agree.

The vig having

my modifier

actually increases the odds of the jailkeeper being present, because

the more you alter the vig role

, the more the town roles need to be made more swingy/contrived/etc.

Okay here was the biggie tho.

"the more you alter the vig role" was meant as a

big fucking huge

hint that I wasn't being truthful about the only gate being Novice. Novice is a fairly simple modification to the vig role. Altering being more extensive = extra modifier, "the vig having my modifier" was my hint at it being a more severe one. And there was the reiteration of one vig shot getting us to evens.

(Might've left more after that but since I got at least a couple of the biggies, I've gotten bored with tracking down more.)

[Childs~]

This page has both somewhat alleviated my concern that childs is not childs, while simultaneously making me very frustrated with childs for their plan yesterday. Like, the attempt to force the town into a game plan, based on a lie, that only actually works if you read is right, and fucks the town over if it is wrong...

I mean, I get it, it was bad if the town actually listened to me.

Be glad they didn't, and then figure out what to do with the knowledge gained.