Mini 2284: The Thing Anonymous [Day 2]

[Copper~]

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

Me too TBH.
VOTE: Bennings

[Copper~]

Ah, we're getting serious?

I like Lars' and MacReady's intros, probably for bad reasons. And I think Copper's is slightly more likely to come from a Thing.

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

Me too TBH.
VOTE: Bennings

This? What sticks out to you as Thing-like?

Yeah, that. It's a vibe. The TBH seems self-conscious, the post itself is short and seems to be made for the sake of making it and fitting in, and the vote on a person that hasn't posted yet vibes like he doesn't want to start ruffling feathers yet.

1. I use TBHs a lot in my writing style.
2. I found myself to really relate to that post.
3. I voted that person because they were the first in the VC and I always do my RVS votes on arbitrary factors like that.

[Copper~]

Abbreviations are something of a mild verbal (textual?) tic for me.

[Copper~]

Defensive much?

I was just explaining myself.

[Copper~]

Abbreviations are something of a mild verbal (textual?) tic for me.

Understandable, I suppose, I have tics of my own. What do you think of Palmer's vote and reason for voting you? Thoughts on mine are welcome as well.

In a vacuum I'd call it a shitpush but we were still basically in RVS so I'm not scumreading him for it. Also if that's the hot new scumtell then it's understandable, I wasn't aware of that.

[Copper~]

Ah, we're getting serious?

I like Lars' and MacReady's intros, probably for bad reasons. And I think Copper's is slightly more likely to come from a Thing.

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

Me too TBH.
VOTE: Bennings

This? What sticks out to you as Thing-like?

Yeah, that. It's a vibe. The TBH seems self-conscious, the post itself is short and seems to be made for the sake of making it and fitting in, and the vote on a person that hasn't posted yet vibes like he doesn't want to start ruffling feathers yet.

1. I use TBHs a lot in my writing style.
2. I found myself to really relate to that post.
3. I voted that person because they were the first in the VC and I always do my RVS votes on arbitrary factors like that.

I also don't like this, seems overly defensive/survavilistic for page 2

I'm thinking Cooper or Clark are good votes but I want to SEE where this is going

VOTE: Clark

Well the push seemed genuine if on flimsy reasoning, why would I not defend myself?

[Copper~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

[Copper~]

I mean you can, but it just feels over cautious

This feels like shading for something that's a lose-lose for Copper. However, I agree with the sentiment in the sense that Copper (and Clark for that matter) both have an over-explainy, formal kind of tone that I'd put as +Scum.

Because of the shading, Copper/Child probably not scum together.

Lars prob-town.

I have a very formal tone in general as both alignments unless something really agitates me.

[Copper~]

I don't currently think Clark is a Thing. I can understand the feeling of annoyance that people took his post the wrong way. Though I don't have anything against a wagon there, as I don't think any of my ideas are going to be >rand right now, and info is info.

Nauls gives me town vibes. Gut tells me that a Thing, if they were planning an entrance to the thread with content, wouldn't have chosen a single post from page 2 to form all their content on.

Garry also feels slightly towny. Explanation purposefully omitted for now.

@Copper, give me your strongest Human and Thing read?

Nauls: Human
Garry: Thing???

I always find it very hard to make scumreads this early unless someone does something outrageously scummy. That second one is very faint and I mostly have townreads and nulls right now.

[Copper~]

Lars also town, as strong as Nauls.

[Copper~]

So is Windows on a re-read of everything.

[Copper~]

OK Norris is scummy, scummier than Garry.
VOTE: Norris

[Copper~]

Elaborate.

Gut and sheeping Lars.

[Copper~]

I'm also getting opportunistic vibes from Copper which is making me think Norris is more likely town here. Not huge on the (basically) naked vote from Copper there.

Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

[Copper~]

Nauls: Human
Garry: Thing???

I always find it very hard to make scumreads this early unless someone does something outrageously scummy. That second one is very faint and I mostly have townreads and nulls right now.

Lars also town, as strong as Nauls.

So is Windows on a re-read of everything.

OK Norris is scummy, scummier than Garry.
VOTE: Norris

Can these actually be explained? They don't actually mean anything to me right now.

Garry = tone, Nauls and Lars seem to be trying pretty hard to solve even this early and that's +town imo, Windows mostly on tone, Norris on tone and sheeping my townread Nauls.

[Copper~]

Also this kind of trolling is really scummy imo.

[Copper~]

How are Garry's and Norris' tones different than Windows'?

Windows' posts, while fewer, have a more solvy vibe if that makes sense.

[Copper~]

I’m having issues processing this game because of the familiar profile pictures and my inability to distinguish men.

Oh good, I'm not the only person having this issue.

Me too but it's less that I can't distinguish men and more that I can't quite distinguish real people when normally there are more colorful things in their places.

[Copper~]

I was of the impression you were posting your code plan as a serious suggestion and the way you went about it plus the fact you did at all both didn't feel to me like something a townie was likely to do.

I disagree with this, why exactly doesn't a code plan seem like a townie thing to do?

[Copper~]

On Copper:

This seems a straight up contradiction?

Elaborate.

Gut and sheeping Lars.

Also this kind of trolling is really scummy imo.

Is it just gut and sheeping? or is Norris being really scummy?

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

I should probably do wallposts instead of thoughtstream spam and edit them as my outlook changes during my backreads.

[Copper~]

How are Garry's and Norris' tones different than Windows'?

Windows' posts, while fewer, have a more solvy vibe if that makes sense.

Kind of, I thought Garry was pretty solvy. Do you think he's faking it? Why, if so?

I can't quite put my finger on it but there's a slight "going through the motions" vibe with his ISO.

[Copper~]

Also, the "this is a contradiction from Copper!" is a horrible point in 242. It feels like desperately trying to fish out a gotcha

Copper went from "mostly a gutread" to "this kind of behaviour is really scummy" in literally 2 minutes, you don't see a contradiction there?

Cooper tries to justify this but I don't buy it:

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

And the "we're not even on page 10" sounds like you were caught up:

Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

"I forgot to mention the scumminess of the posting style" is an explanation I could have bought but "I was still rereading" I don't think fits with that timeline.

1. I read fast.
2. The last page's number is visible even on previous pages so how is that a gotcha?

[Copper~]

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

I don't see a problem, no? Norris' trolling is on the same page as Bennings' question. It doesn't take a lot of time to read Norris' trolling and feel it's scummy and want to comment on it. Those sort of things happen to me as town a lot, so I can see it coming from a town perspective.

I feel like if that were the case either the earlier post or the later one would be phrased differently. Like the second post might have begun "and since then" as an additional reason to stick with the vote rather than "also" which connects it back as a justification for the original vote.

English is not my first language.

[Copper~]

This might seem sort of off-topic but I'm still curious and would be interested how people answer - are you calling scum 'scum' this game, or 'Thing' ?

"Scum"

[Copper~]

Windows stonks go down because really that was just grasping at straws.

[Copper~]

Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.

Yeah I'm getting LHF vibes

Doesn't seem like genuine LHF town and more like scum trolling to look like LHF. Subtle difference.

[Copper~]

Or maybe these are three town wagons and the things don't give two shits about pushing town wagons when there's no threat for them. But I dunno.

Possible but I'm like 95% sure there is at least one scum between those 3 wagons. imo it's Norris.

[Copper~]

Copper went from "mostly a gutread" to "this kind of behaviour is really scummy" in literally 2 minutes, you don't see a contradiction there?

Cooper tries to justify this but I don't buy it:

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

And the "we're not even on page 10" sounds like you were caught up:

I think windows is town for this post

Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

"I forgot to mention the scumminess of the posting style" is an explanation I could have bought but "I was still rereading" I don't think fits with that timeline.

I think windows is town for this post

ebwop

Put my comment in the middle of the quote lol

Elaborate.

[Copper~]

Clark is on E-2. Do not vote vote him.

With scum being able to jump accounts, putting someone on E-1 means scum could safely hammer and then jump away.

Also the fact the moment where the current wagons get questioned and momentum towards a Windows wagon actually starts to form, 2 players randomly show up to reawaken the Clark wagon, which they’ve been quiet on for a while. Veeeery iffy on that.

VOTE: Windows

Fuchs in particular looks bad.
Windows only mentioned Fuchs once ever and it wasn’t even when talking about their alignment. Fuchs has been quiet on Windows’ alignment and suddenly decided they liked a single post from Windows, then following that up with the vote on Clark saying they think all other wagons are on town.
May I remind you that Fuchs very briefly calling a single one of Windows’ post townie is his entire stance there.
Doesn’t help that every Fuchs post since 83 has varied from meh to bad and the Palmer push still looks terrible.

Pedit: 400 kind of looks more like scum defending a townie than scum/scum actually, which is interesting. Though it could just be Fuchs trying to justify a read that has no actual justification because he just made it up, regardless of Windows’ alignment.
Ppedit: 401 disagree. Scum can find things they assume to be gotchas and cling onto them, it’s not a purely town thing.
Pppedit: Timing!

Yeah I agree with this, it's just... a weird defense. Scum can fake such things.

[Copper~]

Windows stonks go down because really that was just grasping at straws.

And like, as the person that he is suspecting, I get that the natural reaction to what feels like a bad push on you is this, there is just the question of why would he even need to be grasping at straws as scum to push you here.

At the time there was no wagon higher then 4 votes, and there were 3 total wagons with 3-4 votes.

With 3 different medium sized wagons, and 0 near-critical wagons, it is hard to imagine that scum!Windows was in a position where he was so desperate to get you miseliminated that he felt the need to be "grasping at straws." Just makes a lot more sense to me that it is a townie who is genuinely thinks that you are scum.

If scum sees what they think is a contradiction or a potential gotcha on a townie, they won’t think “ehhh actually there’s no urgency so I just won’t call this out”,

they’ll still call it out. The current gamestate is pretty meaningless, scum will almost always call out something that will push their agenda.
Also I’m pretty sure Fuchs just straight up knows that Copper is a townie here

This was not my point at all.

My point is that when I see someone making arguments that come across as "grasping at straws," such as this timing argument, then it is likely either: a townie who is kinda tunneled and seeing evidence everywhere they look OR scum in a desperate position.

There is no reasons to think that if he were scum he would be in a desperate position, therefore, him being town confirmation baising his own read when looking back over it makes more sense to me.

Why can't scum fake a tunnel?

[Copper~]

Windows stonks go down because really that was just grasping at straws.

And like, as the person that he is suspecting, I get that the natural reaction to what feels like a bad push on you is this, there is just the question of why would he even need to be grasping at straws as scum to push you here.

At the time there was no wagon higher then 4 votes, and there were 3 total wagons with 3-4 votes.

With 3 different medium sized wagons, and 0 near-critical wagons, it is hard to imagine that scum!Windows was in a position where he was so desperate to get you miseliminated that he felt the need to be "grasping at straws." Just makes a lot more sense to me that it is a townie who is genuinely thinks that you are scum.

If scum sees what they think is a contradiction or a potential gotcha on a townie, they won’t think “ehhh actually there’s no urgency so I just won’t call this out”, they’ll still call it out. The current gamestate is pretty meaningless, scum will almost always call out something that will push their agenda.
Also I’m pretty sure Fuchs just straight up knows that Copper is a townie here

The 'grasping at straws' comment reads to me like whatever the tell is for when scum feel like they've been caught for the wrong reasons.

Copper's other posts since then don't give me reason to move my vote elsewhere:

Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.

Yeah I'm getting LHF vibes

Doesn't seem like genuine LHF town and more like scum trolling to look like LHF. Subtle difference.

Just restating their "Norris's trolling is scummy" point.

In order to contest Norris being defended.

Or maybe these are three town wagons and the things don't give two shits about pushing town wagons when there's no threat for them. But I dunno.

Possible but I'm like 95% sure there is at least one scum between those 3 wagons. imo it's Norris.

Including their own wagon in the count, I don't know how to read that. Compared to "I'm 95% sure there's scum in one of the other two wagons". I'm trying not to be tunnelled here but gut feel is this feels off from how a towny would say it. Also maybe there's an element of "look I'm agreeing to people choosing among the three of us" which to my mind means if Copper is scum both Norris and Clark are likely town since I think if Copper were buddied with either of them it would be more tempting to agree with the "maybe all three are town" angle.

Yeah you're tunneled hard, if I was scum I wouldn't really have a reason to... put myself in that limpool. It just felt less clunky than saying "between the Norris and Clark wagons".

I think windows is town for this post

ebwop

Put my comment in the middle of the quote lol

Elaborate.

"Elaborate" isn't bad in itself but it's like, a lazy way to contribute. If Copper's other posts recently offered more then this wouldn't seem suspicious but it feels to me like scum skating by without doing much.

I mean what else would I say when I feel a post lacks substance.

[Copper~]

Yeah I agree with this, it's just... a weird defense. Scum can fake such things.

Why can't scum fake a tunnel?

This feels intentional

I don't know how many ways I can say that this looks like a genuine tunnel vs the angle that scum would consider taking in this situation.

Yes they can, it is a possibility. I am saying I don't think that they would.

Like subtract out my reaction to his push.

The reaction to it was that it convinced zero people that copper was more likely to be scum, convinced zero people that windows was more likely to be town (again subtracting me) and convinced 5 players to lower their read on him (Copper, Palmer, Clark, Nauls, MacReady). Ah yes, the tell tell calculated scum move.

So the repeated people chiming in with "but why couldn't scum him fake this," that is simply not how I am looking at the situation, and I am asking my self "why would scum him to this to himself." And I don't think that he would. That is what I was trying to say when I was talking about the game state. There was nothing about the situation, forcing him to make such a bad move.

And I simply dont think that people not liking his argument makes him more likely to be scum, because scum are actively trying to make arguments that people like. Townies are making arguments that they believe in, regardless of how other people are going to like it.

And yes scum can do it, and yes they can make mistakes or miscalculations, so sure him still being scum is possible. But it became a lot less likely from my pov. And I think about this game in terms of more or less likely.


Anyways, not sure how many other ways I can try to reword my thoughts before I go insane, so probably going to stop responding to all questions about my windows read from here on out toDay.

I disagree for the reason Nauls provided, but this feels like a townie thought process (if a flawed one) rather than defending a buddy IMO.

[Copper~]

Hello Garry 2.0

I hope Garry 2 is easier to read, Garry 1 was just... opaque, for lack of a better word. I ended up slightly scumreading them for it but I honestly wasn't sure.

[Copper~]

Nauls and Fuchs TvT 90%.

[Copper~]

I still think it's Norris and that Clark is more likely town.

[Copper~]

Clark is more likely town.

Elaborate

Norris really isn't doing all that much except troll up the thread. Could be frustrated town but more likely openwolfing.

[Copper~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Looking back at your iso, the last time you said anything about clark's alignment was this back on page 4

Clark is kinda null for me, that's why, Norris is just scummier.

[Copper~]

Clark still should claim.

[Copper~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Looking back at your iso, the last time you said anything about clark's alignment was this back on page 4

Clark is kinda null for me, that's why, Norris is just scummier.

what about norris do you think is scummy?

I explained it already, the trolling is just ridiculously scummy and not like town having fun. Also he's barely solving if at all, if he actually tried then I'd have looked past the trolling.

[Copper~]

They way that Clark has gone existing in thread while close to elimination feels more likely to be scum then a town PR I think.

But on the other hand, looking at the Clark wiki, jailkeeper seems very thematically appropriate while jailkeeper seeming to be an unlikely role for scum to get.

Gonna think on it

Makes sense but I have to wonder if the mod would actually have the roles be based on the characters in the movie because, well... they're public... which kinda "opens up" the setup?

[Copper~]

Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.

Yeah I'm getting LHF vibes

Doesn't seem like genuine LHF town and more like scum trolling to look like LHF. Subtle difference.

sure, there is a difference, but you haven't done anything to explain what the difference is, hence why your voting seems kinda fabricated/opportunistic

just saying "this trolling seems scummy" and then voting him doesn't really seem like you're trying to figure out alignment, you're just finding a reason

The difference is that he actively seems to be out to annoy people, rather than floundering like LHF.

[Copper~]

Based on the mechanics of the game, I find it doubtful we have a vigilante. And therefore, there would be no mechanical advantage for scum to have a jailkeeper instead of a roleblocker -- unless peta put it in there just for the fake out.

Things do not have powers beyond the factional kill and assimilation.

So I think this point is moot since any claim from a Thing will be made out of whole cloth.

[Copper~]

Fail.

[Copper~]

Wait. If scum cannot have any power roles, then jailkeeper is also kinda janky for town to have too.

Not janky if it's to prevent Follow The Cop-esque strats.

[Copper~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

It does require that y'all can make sure that a Thing doesn’t take over an account, which this strategy might do, but I believe that we can, genuinely, break the game open from the Things having no prs aside from body snatching and flip less nightkills.

I think that this game was balanced around requiring the Things to bodyswap, and if we deny them that tool, we have a huge advantage.

I NEED Clark to confirm that he doesn’t have certain gates on his role, though.

I would prefer if everyone unvoted Clark right now, because regardless, I very strongly believe the claim.

Oooooooh, nice!

Your PFPs look so similar that I got really confused at first.

[Copper~]

Uh. Even going by that plan, it doesn't even prove that Clark is town, it just guarantees that Childs doesn't die N1. And even that isn't good enough, because if Clark IS scum, she just jumps out of her own slot anyway.

Which also, why in the hell would you claim that openly.

Yeah, I hate this.

How? Scum doesn't have a roleblock. If JK is real then vig won't shoot.

[Copper~]

Am I dumb?

[Copper~]

Honestly I’m not the biggest fan of the votes that have piled onto Norris, but Norris also hasn’t given me any reason to feel any better about them than before.

Yeah I'm getting LHF vibes

Doesn't seem like genuine LHF town and more like scum trolling to look like LHF. Subtle difference.

sure, there is a difference, but you haven't done anything to explain what the difference is, hence why your voting seems kinda fabricated/opportunistic

just saying "this trolling seems scummy" and then voting him doesn't really seem like you're trying to figure out alignment, you're just finding a reason

The difference is that he actively seems to be out to annoy people, rather than floundering like LHF.

see i still don't get this

scum aren't trying to "annoy" people they're trying to get townread OR in this game specifically cause chaos and then assimilate

norris behaving that way just puts a target on him for elim D1. doesn't make sense to me from a scum pov

This line of thinking is why scum can openwolf.

[Copper~]

Am I dumb?

OH RIGHT SCUM CAN NO KILL

[Copper~]

Or swap.

This feels more like a poorly-thought-out town play than a scum gambit?

[Copper~]

Eh nevermind it can work if we can read assimilations like a book but I have doubts...

[Copper~]

I'm a 1-shot Cop, and I have a guilty.

VOTE: Windows

For anyone wondering, that is partly why I was playing kind of quietly on Day 1. I didn't wanna risk being widely townread and getting assimilated.

Voting when I finish my catchup.