Mini 2284: The Thing Anonymous [Day 2]

[Fuchs~]

I have a confession to make, I have never seen the thing movie. I just wanted to play an anon game.

VOTE: Childs

[Fuchs~]

I haven't seen it either. I heard it's based on the hit game Among Us.

VOTE: Windows

Damn, then Peta chose well. Sounds like it would be a perfect movie to be made into a mafia game, seeing as how Mafia is also based on the hit video game Among Us

[Fuchs~]

Today I am human. My keycode today is itwapofmhaocotbtdwqdasdotnidttaasssttlhoimaaosac.

it stands for :

Inside the Waystone a pair of men huddled at one corner of the bar. They drank with quiet determination, avoiding serious discussions of troubling news. In doing this they added a small, sullen silence to the larger, hollow one. It made an alloy of sorts, a counterpoint.

A line from one of my favorite books on my bookshelf. I know those things cannot read - they know only how to destroy.

My keycode tomorrow will be: hsialsrbbeftcaglutrcbostfotsatdadayasacsfttgrtrtmfttsptbiwtlaitwdalutfctootfhtwb

if I cannot explain what it stands for, you will know I am no longer with you and you should incinerate me immediately with no mercy for I am now one of them.

This feels actually doing this will break this rule

The following is a list of outlawed shenanigans:
Using invisible text, codes, cryptography, etc.

But I also think that trying to do something like this makes Blair town.

[Fuchs~]

A reminder to all players:

The following is a list of outlawed shenanigans:

Using invisible text, codes, cryptography, etc.

Codes are explicitly forbidden in the rules, don't go attempting to use them. This will be the only time I warn people, further instances will get you booted from the game.

Oh, peta already chimed in lol

[Fuchs~]

I did not like Clark's 53 and 58

More so then anything else that has happened in this game, but not really ready to move any wagon to E-1.

So, he is in my scum pile but not actually going to vote there atm.

[Fuchs~]

I did not like Clark's 53 and 58

More so then anything else that has happened in this game, but not really ready to move any wagon to E-1.

So, he is in my scum pile but not actually going to vote there atm.

Who else is in your scum pile/what is the anything else that you disliked?

So far I have exactly 2 reads. Blair town and Clark lean scum.

Before I made that post, my vote was parked on my RVS vote because I did not have a serious place to put it. But now I did have a serious place to put it, but I did not want to put it there

Also, wanted to point out that his response to getting votes was worse then anything that anyone had actually voted him for prior to that imo.

[Fuchs~]

VOTE: Palmer

[Fuchs~]

Did not really like this post

I don't currently think Clark is a Thing. I can understand the feeling of annoyance that people took his post the wrong way. Though I don't have anything against a wagon there, as I don't think any of my ideas are going to be >rand right now, and info is info.

Nauls gives me town vibes. Gut tells me that a Thing, if they were planning an entrance to the thread with content, wouldn't have chosen a single post from page 2 to form all their content on.

Garry also feels slightly towny. Explanation purposefully omitted for now.

@Copper, give me your strongest Human and Thing read?

You think clark is town, but you are okay with a wagon there because "info is info" does not feel like a genuine thought.

Saying that someone is town because on page 5, the most interesting thing they saw while reading was on Page 2 also does not feel like a real take either.


So after reading it, I opened your iso. So far you have claimed to have had alignment thoughts on Lars, MacReady, Copper, Windows, Clark, Nauls and Garry. Largely light comments, but all voiced, which made it look more like you are just going through the motions of calling things town or scum, vs have real thoughts on these players.

[Fuchs~]

I'm also not convinced a town Blair posts his code so confidently especially with giving the answer to the first code. That to me feels more likely scum trying to appear to be town. Where's the "shit if town go with this and scum crack the code then this move will lose the game for town" sense of caution? Also I kinda feel someone genuinely trying it as town would more likely have checked the rules to confirm if it's okay or not.

My assumption is that Blair came up with their idea of the code between the time of sign ups and the time that role pms went out, and therefore checking the rules or not is NAI.

The way I see it, is that during that time frame, they started thinking about what to do about the swap mechanic, -> Came up with the idea for their code -> thought it would be an effective way to hamper it -> got role pm

I feel like if they had that idea, and thought it was a good way to mess up the scum team, they just... would not have done it if they rolled scum. Until someone just broke their code, it actually seemed like a pretty full proof way to deal with the issue, and scum!Blair would not want to hand their full proof plan on how to deal with the issue to the town.

Especially in an Anon game where there would be no preconceived notion on whether Blair is the type of person who would have worked on some kind of answer to that problem.

[Fuchs~]

So after reading it, I opened your iso. So far you have claimed to have had alignment thoughts on Lars, MacReady, Copper, Windows, Clark, Nauls and Garry. Largely light comments, but all voiced, which made it look more like you are just going through the motions of calling things town or scum, vs have real thoughts on these players.

I don't understand this point. If I hadn't voiced those opinions, then you wouldn't know I had them, no?

Its too many thoughts on too many people, with none of them fleshed out. Just light thought into light thought.

I feel like when people are genuinely sorting a player list there is a level of distraction or focus as they are thinking about things. Like, focusing more on the people they have stronger thoughts on, or focusing more on someone they want to get stronger thoughts on.

Instead what I am seeing with you is a scattershot, which looks more like it is for the sake of looking like you are sorting then genuine sorting.

Of those 7 names you have commented on,

[Fuchs~]

Did not really like this post

I don't currently think Clark is a Thing. I can understand the feeling of annoyance that people took his post the wrong way. Though I don't have anything against a wagon there, as I don't think any of my ideas are going to be >rand right now, and info is info.

Nauls gives me town vibes. Gut tells me that a Thing, if they were planning an entrance to the thread with content, wouldn't have chosen a single post from page 2 to form all their content on.

Garry also feels slightly towny. Explanation purposefully omitted for now.

@Copper, give me your strongest Human and Thing read?

You think clark is town, but you are okay with a wagon there because "info is info" does not feel like a genuine thought.

Saying that someone is town because on page 5, the most interesting thing they saw while reading was on Page 2 also does not feel like a real take either.


So after reading it, I opened your iso. So far you have claimed to have had alignment thoughts on Lars, MacReady, Copper, Windows, Clark, Nauls and Garry. Largely light comments, but all voiced, which made it look more like you are just going through the motions of calling things town or scum, vs have real thoughts on these players.

OKAY fuchs is town

fuchs tell me where to vote and ill do it.

Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?

And also, why did you then tell me to tell you where to vote, instead of following my vote / reasoning in the very post you quoted?

[Fuchs~]

I think he is saying that you would not have given the answer to the first code, because it would help scum figure out your second code -- and that town!you would have thought about that.

But it misses the fact that if you did not do an example, then any made up sentence could be passed off as the answer. But since I have your first code and answer, I could spot check a fake answer. I did not do that for Lars today, because of your response. But doing it now, it actually does not pass the smell test when looked at closely

[Fuchs~]

Sorry, life was kind of a bitch yesterday. I'll try to get caught back up soon.

[Fuchs~]

Odds of Fuchs/Norris scum and that one part of 116 made about my intro was some sort of chainsaw defense? Or maybe the "where to vote thing" is too genuine to come from that team. Both of them looks iffy to me regardless.

I don't think I understand what you are saying here?

You think that my comment about Palmer was a chainsaw defense of Norris?

I am not calling you scum here, I am vaguely leaning town on you. I was calling Palmer's reasoning non-genuine looking, like he was looking for a way to make an alignment based statement about you vs seeing something that he actually thought was alignment indicative, and that then influencing his read. I feel like I have reworded my point a few times, but am struggling to get people to actually understand my point about Palmer's post (including Palmer lol)

Just to add, this self referential nature of viewing the game does leans me more to you being town.

[Fuchs~]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Lars' treatment of Norris is

worse

than Copper's is, assuming Norris is town. Copper's vote is naked and unexplained, sure. But reading through Lars' posts on the bottom of page 7 and top of page 8, they give off this aura of Lars trying really hard to appear superior to Norris. It doesn't read like he's actually interrogating Norris, it reads like he's trying to show to the rest of us how unreasonable and scummy Norris is.

I also think Norris is a type of player that is easier to read if he's allowed to do his own thing, rather than if he gets jumped on early. Which is an additional point that gives me the chills about Lars here.

I town read Lars's posts about Norris here for the exact reasons that you scum read them lmao.

Lars is putting in work on it, cross checking the tone of his recent posts vs how he presented prior, and putting himself in the forefront of the push by being the strongest, loudest, most detailed pusher. This is not where scum want to be on a town!Norris wagon.

It is early Day 1, and Norris is doing a decent job of making himself look bad. No need for scum to go this hard right there, so this looks more to me like town!Lars genuinely believing in his case.

[Fuchs~]

Copper went from "mostly a gutread" to "this kind of behaviour is really scummy" in literally 2 minutes, you don't see a contradiction there?

Cooper tries to justify this but I don't buy it:

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

And the "we're not even on page 10" sounds like you were caught up:

I think windows is town for this post
Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

"I forgot to mention the scumminess of the posting style" is an explanation I could have bought but "I was still rereading" I don't think fits with that timeline.

[Fuchs~]

Copper went from "mostly a gutread" to "this kind of behaviour is really scummy" in literally 2 minutes, you don't see a contradiction there?

Cooper tries to justify this but I don't buy it:

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

And the "we're not even on page 10" sounds like you were caught up:

I think windows is town for this post

Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

"I forgot to mention the scumminess of the posting style" is an explanation I could have bought but "I was still rereading" I don't think fits with that timeline.

I think windows is town for this post

ebwop

Put my comment in the middle of the quote lol

[Fuchs~]

Wheres Fuchs at though?

Oh look, it me

[Fuchs~]

I don't like everyone pushing me, but I don't complain about every single one of them.

so what separates childs from the rest?

u can try opening fhe quote in the post ur looking at and opening the spoiler and read the italics i added on.. please?

This feels like really bad reasoning, but Norris putting his entire point inside a spoiler inside a quote makes me want to call him town again. At least back up to null

[Fuchs~]

You don't seem to like Childs pushing you so I wouldn't expect you to

I don't like everyone pushing me, but I don't complain about every single one of them.

Spoiler:

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

Others have said this sounded weird, which eh don't know if I agree about that specifically. But its already just drawing a conclusion first. "can see it" as my strategy, the way thats worded makes it a bit easy to go back later after I flip and say the opposite as well. They haven't actually thought through what would or wouldn't be a valid strategy for me, since the follow from me questioning it... isn't all that descriptive?

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

And actually reading this, I kinda like the content of the post.
because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

^ "You're too bad for that" doesn't seem like weighing the options, it just straight out goes as a hit to my confidence.

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

Don't forget the LaLaLa posts

I mean if trolling is a free pass to being townread as some people seem to be implying why don't we all just troll and random lim people everday?

They're just shading me in this post "Don't forget the lalala posts" comes off as... I don't know if wording this right.. but know-it-allesque? if that confuses I can explain slightly... I think. The later part of the post just seems like theyre pissed its working for me.

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

If Thing Norris is incapable of not trolling I'm not sure how jumping into another body is going to change anything

why are you defending a troll old man?

do you like being trolled?

as for your question, he trolls today to "appear" town because his actions are "too scum to be scum" and then changelings to someone, I can totally see scum trying to pull that off

Same thing here, they're overly pissed its working for me. Trolls are in every game lol you can't escape them.
This also assumes I would be confident enough to try and pull this off as scum, but earlier they said I'm bad at the game?
If you want to be extra nitpicky, the wording on the ending of this post.

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

On a similar flip side, if he's town and starts solving and not trolling later on someone might case that as having been assimilated

this is tea leaf reading type of stuff

It's still antitown behavior to answer like he did to a simple explain your thought process question

I don't know what tea leaf means here so I won't "make up a read" about this. (I believe this is me shading Lars but I might be wrong about that).

if we don't have any better leads by the end of the day I'd be down to incinerate Norris but I'm not going to waste my time trying to sort some troll.

you know what could fix that? maybe start liming trolls first to discourage such behavior?

but anyway you at least aknowledge that it's a possible and deserved lim

Childs is more interested in their own emotions instead of actually solving to find scum... I wonder why they wouldnt feel a need to find scum...

Pages 11 and 12 actually
I feel like his approach to your slot, particularly from these posts are unlikely to come from scum - he feels truly annoyed at the situation, is not pushing a policy lim, and is trying to understand Norris's behavior in an AI context. The cumulative effect feels townie to me, doesn't feel like a policy lim from scum

But.. whatever

[Fuchs~]

You don't seem to like Childs pushing you so I wouldn't expect you to

I don't like everyone pushing me, but I don't complain about every single one of them.

Spoiler:

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

Others have said this sounded weird, which eh don't know if I agree about that specifically. But its already just drawing a conclusion first. "can see it" as my strategy, the way thats worded makes it a bit easy to go back later after I flip and say the opposite as well. They haven't actually thought through what would or wouldn't be a valid strategy for me, since the follow from me questioning it... isn't all that descriptive?

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

^ "You're too bad for that" doesn't seem like weighing the options, it just straight out goes as a hit to my confidence.

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

Don't forget the LaLaLa posts

I mean if trolling is a free pass to being townread as some people seem to be implying why don't we all just troll and random lim people everday?

They're just shading me in this post "Don't forget the lalala posts" comes off as... I don't know if wording this right.. but know-it-allesque? if that confuses I can explain slightly... I think. The later part of the post just seems like theyre pissed its working for me.

why didnt i just... try harder to appear town so I wouldnt have to changeling?

because you are too bad to do that. prove me wrong

If Thing Norris is incapable of not trolling I'm not sure how jumping into another body is going to change anything

why are you defending a troll old man?

do you like being trolled?

as for your question, he trolls today to "appear" town because his actions are "too scum to be scum" and then changelings to someone, I can totally see scum trying to pull that off

Same thing here, they're overly pissed its working for me. Trolls are in every game lol you can't escape them.
This also assumes I would be confident enough to try and pull this off as scum, but earlier they said I'm bad at the game?
If you want to be extra nitpicky, the wording on the ending of this post.

I can see "Norris" dying and replacing someone in the roster as his strategy for this behavior, I didn't vote him right after that act because wey had'nt heard from Clark

On the flip side if he's town he's a pretty easy target for scum to assimilate. Alternate between snarky posts and copying other people's posts and no one would know the difference.

On a similar flip side, if he's town and starts solving and not trolling later on someone might case that as having been assimilated

this is tea leaf reading type of stuff

It's still antitown behavior to answer like he did to a simple explain your thought process question

I don't know what tea leaf means here so I won't "make up a read" about this. (I believe this is me shading Lars but I might be wrong about that).

if we don't have any better leads by the end of the day I'd be down to incinerate Norris but I'm not going to waste my time trying to sort some troll.

you know what could fix that? maybe start liming trolls first to discourage such behavior?

but anyway you at least aknowledge that it's a possible and deserved lim

Childs is more interested in their own emotions instead of actually solving to find scum... I wonder why they wouldnt feel a need to find scum...

Pages 11 and 12 actually
I feel like his approach to your slot, particularly from these posts are unlikely to come from scum - he feels truly annoyed at the situation, is not pushing a policy lim, and is trying to understand Norris's behavior in an AI context. The cumulative effect feels townie to me, doesn't feel like a policy lim from scum

But.. whatever

And actually reading this, I kinda like the content of the post.

Wow, managed to put my comment in the wrong place twice. Oh how I have goofed this night

[Fuchs~]

If you read my posts, you will notice that I don't scumread any of the three wagons! And I DO scumread multiple people voting for those wagons!

In addition to that, I do not care about baseless VCA!

Or maybe these are three town wagons and the things don't give two shits about pushing town wagons when there's no threat for them. But I dunno.

Not liking the wagons in part because you scum read multiple people voting on those wagons feels pretty contradictory to coming back and arguing that maybe scum does not feel the need to push any of the wagons since they are all town.

[Fuchs~]

I think that Blair, Lars, Nails, Copper, Windows, Norris and MacReady are all town of varying degrees of strength

I have had conflicting thoughts on Childs, so he is in: I don't know where these balance out, so I'll call it Null Tier.

I have had 0 retained thoughts on Garry or Bennings, so they are in null:scum.

Palmer and Clark in the scum pile

[Fuchs~]

Unofficial Vote Count

Norris (3):

Nauls, Lars, Copper

Clark (3):

MacReady, Garry, Blair

Copper (3):

Clark, Bennings, Windows

Windows (2):

Norris, Palmer

Palmer (1):

Fuchs

With 13 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.

VOTE: Clark

I am actually leaning town on ever other wagon lmao

[Fuchs~]

Spoiler:

Copper went from "mostly a gutread" to "this kind of behaviour is really scummy" in literally 2 minutes, you don't see a contradiction there?

Cooper tries to justify this but I don't buy it:

I had not quite finished my backread when responding to Bennings, Norris started getting really trolly on page 8 which I didn't read during the "sheeping" comment, the "trolling" comment came after I read everything.

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

And the "we're not even on page 10" sounds like you were caught up:

I think windows is town for this post

Opportunistic how? It's mostly a gutread but we're not even on page 10.

"I forgot to mention the scumminess of the posting style" is an explanation I could have bought but "I was still rereading" I don't think fits with that timeline.

I think windows is town for this post

ebwop

Put my comment in the middle of the quote lol

Elaborate.

I probably could have zoomed in more to show what I actually was focused on

You finished the backread in the 2 minutes between those posts?

Looking at the time stamps to see if the timing makes sense, just is not something that scum him would do here.

Like, lets assume that he is scum and you are town. When he sees your response, that you posted one thing mid catch up, then followed up with it upon reading the more recent posts, then he immediately knows that you are telling the truth about that. There is no built in trigger here for him to scroll back to previous pages to investigate the timing of your posts, because he knows you are telling the truth and that you did in fact have the time to do what you claimed. He would not expect to find a contradiction, since he knows its true based on knowledge of your alignment.

Sure if he is scum, he might keep calling you scum here, and not just accept your answer. But going back to check the time stamps to see if you had enough time to read more is not the angle he is going to start with, when he knows that by default you are telling the truth and did have time enough time to read more.

---

No. This is a town reaction to your explanation for something that he found suspicious.

He had a suspicion -> you stated your explanation -> he scrolled back to see if your explanation made sense -> he did not think that it made sense, so he pointed it out for everyone to see.

To be clear, I disagree with his conclusion, but I think that it was a townie brain that led him there.

[Fuchs~]

Windows stonks go down because really that was just grasping at straws.

And like, as the person that he is suspecting, I get that the natural reaction to what feels like a bad push on you is this, there is just the question of why would he even need to be grasping at straws as scum to push you here.

At the time there was no wagon higher then 4 votes, and there were 3 total wagons with 3-4 votes.

With 3 different medium sized wagons, and 0 near-critical wagons, it is hard to imagine that scum!Windows was in a position where he was so desperate to get you miseliminated that he felt the need to be "grasping at straws." Just makes a lot more sense to me that it is a townie who is genuinely thinks that you are scum.

[Fuchs~]

Also the fact the moment where the current wagons get questioned and momentum towards a Windows wagon actually starts to form, 2 players randomly show up to reawaken the Clark wagon, which they’ve been quiet on for a while. Veeeery iffy on that.

Saying that I randomly showed up to do this, and attributing it to windows getting votes ignores the context. Like I was out of thread long enough to get a prod message from the mod, and so the time I was not "randomly showing up," I was catching back up after being away for a while.

Fuchs in particular looks bad.
Windows only mentioned Fuchs once ever and it wasn’t even when talking about their alignment. Fuchs has been quiet on Windows’ alignment and suddenly decided they liked a single post from Windows, then following that up with the vote on Clark saying they think all other wagons are on town.
May I remind you that Fuchs very briefly calling a single one of Windows’ post townie is his entire stance there.

And like... yes?

I did not have a read on Windows, then I read a post that made me think he was likely to be town, and then explained why when asked.

But you said that like it was an accusation lol

[Fuchs~]

Going from this stance on Clark :

MacReady, Palmer

Garry, Blair

Copper, Childs, Lars,

Clark, Bennings

Norris, Fuchs, Windows

{snip}

On the flip side, the Clark wagon composition is good enough to make Clark look worse.

(snip}

Kind of like Clark’s 58 and 60, tbh. The annoyance seems to come more from a town POV than a scum one. 239 looks decent I’d say? Don’t like 295 though, it feels fabricated. Also the way the Clark wagon has gradually died down feels off, like scum purposely stopped paying attention to it. Maybe it has something to do with a shift out of the early game wagons, but I feel like Copper’s still being seriously discussed in spite of that. Maybe it’s cause Clark got replaced, but I also don’t see much from Clark 2.0 that looks very town indicative.

To *big text* *all caps* "sweet jesus save this man" based on me voting him is WILD

[Fuchs~]

Windows stonks go down because really that was just grasping at straws.

And like, as the person that he is suspecting, I get that the natural reaction to what feels like a bad push on you is this, there is just the question of why would he even need to be grasping at straws as scum to push you here.

At the time there was no wagon higher then 4 votes, and there were 3 total wagons with 3-4 votes.

With 3 different medium sized wagons, and 0 near-critical wagons, it is hard to imagine that scum!Windows was in a position where he was so desperate to get you miseliminated that he felt the need to be "grasping at straws." Just makes a lot more sense to me that it is a townie who is genuinely thinks that you are scum.

If scum sees what they think is a contradiction or a potential gotcha on a townie, they won’t think “ehhh actually there’s no urgency so I just won’t call this out”,

they’ll still call it out. The current gamestate is pretty meaningless, scum will almost always call out something that will push their agenda.
Also I’m pretty sure Fuchs just straight up knows that Copper is a townie here

This was not my point at all.

My point is that when I see someone making arguments that come across as "grasping at straws," such as this timing argument, then it is likely either: a townie who is kinda tunneled and seeing evidence everywhere they look OR scum in a desperate position.

There is no reasons to think that if he were scum he would be in a desperate position, therefore, him being town confirmation baising his own read when looking back over it makes more sense to me.

[Fuchs~]

116 and 146 still sit at the back of my mind, really don’t like those.

The long and short of those posts was : when I look at the way he was going about his sorting, it looked like fake sorting vs genuine sorting thoughts.

Like I saw what looked like sorting for the purpose of looking like you are sorting.

It seems like you disagreed with every single line I had to say in those posts though, so idk man, feels kind of pointless to jump back into re-explaining my thoughts there

[Fuchs~]

Going from this stance on Clark :

MacReady, Palmer

Garry, Blair

Copper, Childs, Lars,

Clark, Bennings

Norris, Fuchs, Windows

{snip}

On the flip side, the Clark wagon composition is good enough to make Clark look worse.

(snip}

Kind of like Clark’s 58 and 60, tbh. The annoyance seems to come more from a town POV than a scum one. 239 looks decent I’d say? Don’t like 295 though, it feels fabricated. Also the way the Clark wagon has gradually died down feels off, like scum purposely stopped paying attention to it. Maybe it has something to do with a shift out of the early game wagons, but I feel like Copper’s still being seriously discussed in spite of that. Maybe it’s cause Clark got replaced, but I also don’t see much from Clark 2.0 that looks very town indicative.

To *big text* *all caps* "sweet jesus save this man" based on me voting him is WILD

“Clark is suspicious” and “We shouldn’t put people on E-1 because this setup is particularly conducive to scum sniping a hammer” aren’t contradictory ideas

That is not all you did in that post.

-You made made a bolded large text statement about not voting him to E-1
-You called the timing of votes on his suspicious
-You voted his counter wagon
-You attacked the reason I called his counter wagon town.

These 4 things combined into one post are not the same as just making a statement about the setup and quick hammers.

[Fuchs~]

And like... yes?

I did not have a read on Windows, then I read a post that made me think he was likely to be town, and then explained why when asked.

But you said that like it was an accusation lol

I say it like it’s an accusation because I would expect your read on someone who’s posted substantial amounts of content to be based off of more than a single post of theirs. I don’t really see how you can form a read on Windows off of that singular post when there’s plenty more.

I, in general, find the majority of posts people make to be nai, because it turns out that scum are doing their best to make it so that their posts do not look scummy, and townies are not necessarily doing their best to make their posts not look scummy, meaning that, in general, it is hard to look at a post and declare it more or less likely to come from town or scum.

Especially on day 1, before we have any flips, and therefore cannot look at a players interactions with a flipped slot, and just tone and intent are all that we are going off of.

That post from Windows was the first one that gave me strong thoughts about the alignment that would result in a player writing that post in particular.

[Fuchs~]

I did not like Clark's 53 and 58

More so then anything else that has happened in this game, but not really ready to move any wagon to E-1.

So, he is in my scum pile but not actually going to vote there atm.

Who else is in your scum pile/what is the anything else that you disliked?

So far I have exactly 2 reads. Blair town and Clark lean scum.

Before I made that post, my vote was parked on my RVS vote because I did not have a serious place to put it. But now I did have a serious place to put it, but I did not want to put it there

Also, wanted to point out that his response to getting votes was worse then anything that anyone had actually voted him for prior to that imo.

Eh... I don't really like this post. Having "only 2 reads" is a very restrictive way to view the game for a townie, who would be organically forming thoughts on the other players. Especially don't like this when both of these reads have been explicitly stated by Fuchs earlier and seem to have not changed whatsoever since.

But of course, you found the idea that I would only have 2 reads on page 5 also suspicious (which flows from what I just said btw), and it is hard to tell if you are just calling every single thing that I do suspicious or if you and I just view the game incredibly differently.

Because me not having enough reads on page 5 was suspicious, me developing a scum read on Palmer was suspicious, me developing a town read on Windows was suspicious, me voting Clark was suspicious.

[Fuchs~]

If scum sees what they think is a contradiction or a potential gotcha on a townie, they won’t think “ehhh actually there’s no urgency so I just won’t call this out”, they’ll still call it out. The current gamestate is pretty meaningless, scum will almost always call out something that will push their agenda.

Once again, saying what I was thinking when reading that.

My point is that when I see someone making arguments that come across as "grasping at straws," such as this timing argument, then it is likely either: a townie who is kinda tunneled and seeing evidence everywhere they look OR scum in a desperate position.

Why can it not be scum pretending to be a tunneled townie?

This is assuming that scum never forcefully does anything unless they have to, and I think that's very wrong.

First the bolded: If your basis for claiming that something makes someone a town read, is that they must do something that scum can't do, then you will never form a town read ever. Scum can do anything. This is a game of "more likely's"

Now the Italics: That is not anywhere close to my point.

Scum can, and do, make pushes on townies. Even when they are not in a bad spot, and that is simply not my point.

You are taking something that I am saying about a very specific situation [that he made

this push

, in

this way,

in this game state] And trying to reframe it as if I am claiming a universal truth that scum would not make

any push

, in

any way

, in this game state.

[Fuchs~]

First the bolded: If your basis for claiming that something makes someone a town read, is that they must do something that scum can't do, then you will never form a town read ever. Scum can do anything. This is a game of "more likely's"

And in my experience, the person making this kind of argument, [saying that you need to explain why scum could not do the thing that makes you think someone is more likely town] is scum most interested in shooting down the formation of town reads on potential miselim options.

I like really want Palmer to be today's elim

VOTE: Palmer

[Fuchs~]

And in my experience, the person making this kind of argument, [saying that you need to explain why scum could not do the thing that makes you think someone is more likely town] is scum most interested in shooting down the formation of town reads on potential miselim options.

Like it not being framed that windows IS SCUM, doing that, just that he COULD BE scum doing that, shows more interest in shooting down the town read then actually sorting windows.

[Fuchs~]

aye maybe palmer is actually scum

[Fuchs~]

Yeah I agree with this, it's just... a weird defense. Scum can fake such things.

Why can't scum fake a tunnel?

This feels intentional

I don't know how many ways I can say that this looks like a genuine tunnel vs the angle that scum would consider taking in this situation.

Yes they can, it is a possibility. I am saying I don't think that they would.

Like subtract out my reaction to his push.

The reaction to it was that it convinced zero people that copper was more likely to be scum, convinced zero people that windows was more likely to be town (again subtracting me) and convinced 5 players to lower their read on him (Copper, Palmer, Clark, Nauls, MacReady). Ah yes, the tell tell calculated scum move.

So the repeated people chiming in with "but why couldn't scum him fake this," that is simply not how I am looking at the situation, and I am asking my self "why would scum him to this to himself." And I don't think that he would. That is what I was trying to say when I was talking about the game state. There was nothing about the situation, forcing him to make such a bad move.

And I simply dont think that people not liking his argument makes him more likely to be scum, because scum are actively trying to make arguments that people like. Townies are making arguments that they believe in, regardless of how other people are going to like it.

And yes scum can do it, and yes they can make mistakes or miscalculations, so sure him still being scum is possible. But it became a lot less likely from my pov. And I think about this game in terms of more or less likely.


Anyways, not sure how many other ways I can try to reword my thoughts before I go insane, so probably going to stop responding to all questions about my windows read from here on out toDay.

[Fuchs~]

You could apply this to any post that people don’t like. “But scum wouldn’t make a post people don’t like!”
“Scum!Windows wouldn’t make such a bad post” is an odd point to make.

My response to a counter argument is not the same thing as my original point.

My original point was: scum, who can make up any argument about any slot, would not be making this particular argument unless they were desperate, and there is not reason for him to be desperate -- with a side splash of, I can see the exact town mindset that would lead to a townie making this point. Therefore, less likely to come from scum and more likely to come from town.

When I was looking back to count how many people scum read the post, I saw this post from blair.

Why do you think Windows is townie?

I thought his "reasoning" for thinking I am mafia is too stupid for a mafia player to make up.

My original point is more in the ball park of this. Less condescending, but in the same ball park.

[Fuchs~]

Clark is more likely town.

Elaborate

[Fuchs~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Looking back at your iso, the last time you said anything about clark's alignment was this back on page 4

[Fuchs~]

Garry, will you be catching up?

At this point Clarke is by far my favorite wagon. The first incarnation if the slot was very scummy, and the second is not trying to solve the game at all

I am getting somewhat alarmed by the fact that the game is stalling a bit

VOTE: Clark

I someone already did an intent to E-1. This should get the game moving actively, and Clark is my second choice anyways.

Clark, you should claim.

[Fuchs~]

They way that Clark has gone existing in thread while close to elimination feels more likely to be scum then a town PR I think.

But on the other hand, looking at the Clark wiki, jailkeeper seems very thematically appropriate while jailkeeper seeming to be an unlikely role for scum to get.

Gonna think on it

[Fuchs~]

I'm a jailkeeper

They way that Clark has gone existing in thread while close to elimination feels more likely to be scum then a town PR I think.

But on the other hand, looking at the Clark wiki, jailkeeper seems very thematically appropriate while jailkeeper seeming to be an unlikely role for scum to get.

Gonna think on it

Strongly agree with the first point, why do you think it's unlikely for scum to have this role?

Based on the mechanics of the game, I find it doubtful we have a vigilante. And therefore, there would be no mechanical advantage for scum to have a jailkeeper instead of a roleblocker -- unless peta put it in there just for the fake out.

But regardless, after thinking about it, I am not really interested in moving my vote for that reason.

@Clark, who are your top town reads?

[Fuchs~]

I don't think Clark is scum. Off-the-hip gut read.

Funny, mine is that you're scum if he isn't.

Spoiler: notes up to this point

Windows town
Lars town? (Definitely if Norris is actually scum)
(36 makes him def town)
Fuchs actually town
Palmer town page one, less so after
MacReady town

Garry def not scum with Clark, might be town?
Looks more town as things are going.

Blair, not gonna bother reading, town enough for now.

Copper scum? (Not with Clark probs.)
Clark scum.
Norris possible scum

Childs, how much had you read when you wrote this post?

It being said under the quote for post 79, while saying up to this point, feels like it should mean that it was your notes up to post 79, but I wanted to check

[Fuchs~]

If they were stupid enough to try they aren't going to be stupid enough to try now you've pointed it out... I don't see the town motivation for posting this now rather than say sometime in D2.

it limits scum options because now they have to think about this

Disagree. I was actually getting ready to type a similar post until I saw 512. Voicing it now announces to the scum team that that is something the will need to keep up with it, while sitting on it for at least a day would open up the possibility of actually catching scum with it.

Not sure that it makes Childs scum, because that seems like a thought that they would post in the scum chat instead of the main thread if they were scum, but it was also probably anti-town to say it.

similar to how nauls (i think it was nauls) commented about not voting on E-2 limits scum options, which I think was a much townier way of the whole "i don't want to put someone to E-1" train of thought than what fuchs did originally

While there are surface similarities, I will give full originality points to nauls for their post.

I had not really considered the quick hammer into slot abandonment option. Mine was more just that it was only page 4.

Although thinking about the quick hammer into slot abandonment option, I don't know that that is actually something scum would want to do unless their current slot was in a really doomed position, so not sure it is actually a super big concern atm.

[Fuchs~]

We can test a jailkeeper claim in this game because scum can't actually have a roleblocker but this risks letting Clark jump into a new body if she is a thing

I am not following this at all.

Oh.

Just checked back to the OP

Things do not have powers beyond the factional kill and assimilation.

Hmm. We could potentially prove their alignment.

However, it would require a different power role out themselves for him to target, likely an invest since they would need to know that they got blocked. And give up that power role's ability for the night.

And if he is scum, then he just slot swaps tonight, and tries again on a different slot.

[Fuchs~]

Wait. If scum cannot have any power roles, then jailkeeper is also kinda janky for town to have too.

[Fuchs~]

less janky then scum in a no vig game (because it could be a purposeful nerf to a doctor role) but still odd

[Fuchs~]

Fuchs - already talked about

those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three

So, uh...

Did you forget what read you had on me lmao

Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:

Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?

A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.

Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.

[Fuchs~]

Novice Jailkeeper does not test the claim lmao.

Also, the reason why I thought we would not have a vigilante is that because in this set up, I think that it would actually be a negative utility role, and if childs is actually a vig (I have my doubts, and my gut reaction was that it was a play to save clark, but also gonna give it some time to think about that too), but if they actually are a vig, I think that they should probably never fire.

Players who are eliminated during the day will have their alignment revealed. Players who die during the night

will not

.

We wont know if it killed town or scum. This is a denial of information for partner associations. So long as scum were only killable during the day, then we would have always been informed when we successfully killed scum, but with a vig we would not.

Furthermore, moment they fire the first time we lose track of the number of scum that exist in the game. We will go from there are exactly X scum, to an unknown number. Making us no longer be able to track things like how close to ELO we are.

Next it will make it harder to hunt for assimilation. If the vig fires and dies in the same night we will no longer be looking to see if exactly "the player who died last night"'s posting mannerisms or like childs mentioned, posting times, have started popping up somewhere else because there would be a second choice of who may have body swapped during the night. [This point was originally thought about before when I was thinking about if this set up made sense to have a vigilante in at all, and I am aware that since there is an open vig claim, this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day, but when I was thinking in the general sense it did not seem likely that even if there was a vig, that it would be claimed before it could fire, and therefore it would be confusion on the following day]

[Fuchs~]

Novice Jailkeeper

does not test the claim lmao.

Novice Vigilante

[Fuchs~]

Next it will make it harder to hunt for assimilation. If the vig fires and dies in the same night we will no longer be looking to see if exactly "the player who died last night"'s posting mannerisms or like childs mentioned, posting times, have started popping up somewhere else because there would be a second choice of who may have body swapped during the night. [This point was originally thought about before when I was thinking about if this set up made sense to have a vigilante in at all, and I am aware that since there is an open vig claim, this can be worked around by having childs announce their intended during the day, but when I was thinking in the general sense it did not seem likely that even if there was a vig, that it would be claimed before it could fire, and therefore it would be confusion on the following day]

This was not typed out clearly, because my thoughts about it actually changed some while I typed it.

This is largely a non-issue entirely with an outed vig claim vs an unclaimed vig where there were various issues that could arise [like them being killed or the scum target being protected, ect] All of which would compound the info issue.

But with it claimed, all of that kind of washes away. But it was part of my "why I don't think that there is a vig in this game" thoughts, but mid typing it I started thinking about the claim being out there in advance

[Fuchs~]

(I have my doubts, and my gut reaction was that it was a play to save clark, but also gonna give it some time to think about that too)

Just put a few more words to this: mentioned before that I did not expect a vig in this set up given the no night flips rule, but I also saw the benefits of a scum/scum pair doing this in this way.

Like, tomorrow they announce that they are going to target the same person to test if he is a jailkeeper (only way I can even think to set up a test with a vig tbh) and if that person does not die, then clark is confirmed town. And then just... don't kill that person. False clear on Clark. This would require Childs to body swap eventually though, because they can never actually result in 2 kills in a night and having claimed vig, but also with their claim, their slot being night killed would have been expected - giving them some cover for the swap.

And if things start falling apart for them, they could also still swap away from either or both of these slots.

----

I am not super sure I believe that scum would even try this, because it would lock childs into a forced body swap at some point, but that was my gut reaction as a combination of not expecting a vig + thinking that clark is scum + seeing a this path.

[Fuchs~]

Fuchs - already talked about

those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three

So, uh...

Did you forget what read you had on me lmao

Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:

Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?

A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.

Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.

<_<

>_>

lmao

VOTE: Clark

Yeah, nauls is also not mentioned in their new post which seems odd given the thought he put into the slot for their interactions with me in 464.

I am just mulling over whether I think that childs is town, trying to focus on how to deal with a situation using exactly their PR, or if they are scum trying to save clark.

whether I think that childs is town, trying to focus on how to deal with a situation using exactly their PR

I actually thought of a better different way that childs could have been trying to confirm clark then having them both target the same person, and it is actually possibly pretty good. And I might even go for it if clark could not body swap away during the night.

[Fuchs~]

Spoiler:

Fuchs - already talked about

those are my three biggest scum reads. Windows and palmer are floating in the lower half of my reads as well but not to the extent of those three

So, uh...

Did you forget what read you had on me lmao

Decided to ISO Fuchs
I think this is more likely to come from town than scum:

Norris, why does you deciding that I am town mean that I get to decide your vote?

A lot of Fuchs' points are very nuanced which looks to me like trying to solve by thinking deeply about motives rather than the actual actions themselves. Which is what town would want to do instead of scum looking for something bad to jump onto.
To reiterate Fuchs, I don't understand the "why could scum not pretend to be tunnelled" argument. You could say that about literally anything.

Nauls's arguments with Fuchs look like Nauls is actively searching for things to argue about and ways to make Fuchs look bad rather than reading something and thinking it's bad. Then when the clash didn't go anywhere he just dropped it in 433.

]

Nauls not Fuchs. Everyone looks the same this game.

Okay, but if you meant to type Nauls instead of Fuchs there, why did I not make it to your town reads list in there, given I was your most fleshed out town read prior to that post?

My strongest townread is still Garry, then probably Childs.

[Fuchs~]

I'm pretty sure that we can completely confirm Clark's alignment, here, if I'm right.

I'm at a loss how we're going from your role to 'completely confirming Clark's alignment' here

^

I'm not usually great at this setup spec - is there something I'm missing here, that would imply novice vig -> clarke town? I just don't follow

I think that they plan was to have clark target them night 1. This guarantees childs makes it to day 2. (clark town, thats a protect, clark scum, they can't kill them)

then on night 2, tell clark to target them again, while childs tried to vig shoot clark.

If clark is town, clark saves themselves and becomes confirmed town. If clark is scum, they cannot stop the shot and clark dies.

Like I said, this would actually work if scum!clark did not have the option of slot abandonment tonight to avoid this

[Fuchs~]

then on night 2, tell clark to target them again, while childs tried to vig shoot clark.

If clark is town, clark saves themselves and becomes confirmed town. If clark is scum, they cannot stop the shot and clark dies.

I see

That relies on:
- tying up potential PR's until day3 (and thus making this a topic of discussion until then)
- Neither of them deviating from the plan
- no bodyswapping shenanigans

Which makes me a little dubious if it's worth the effort

Agreed, but seeing this option has pushed me back into the world of childs thinking about the claim in terms of their own PR, and coming up with the plan.

Scum just have ways to fuck with that plan by:
-Abandoning the Clark slot
-Taking over the Childs slot tonight, to then confirm the Clark slot tomorrow.

-Or even if Clark is town, taking over the Clark slot after it is confirmed

[Fuchs~]

I don't understand the plan at all

In a game with no scum PRS, having a jailkeeper claim and a vigilante cross target one another would be pretty effective.

If JK claim is scum, they die. If they are town, they live and are now confirmed, and they protected the vig claim for the night on top of it.

So the basis for the plan is not bad, but once you add in the assimilation mechanic in this game it opens up lots of issues.

[Fuchs~]

well that was enought ime for a claim VOTE: Clark

I have fully walked away my initial paranoia on the claim coming from scum childs to save scum clark, because childs was wilding towards killing him just a page before falling over to save him lmao.

[Fuchs~]

Hey Childs, if you do live to night two, I would advise not actually shooting. I think vig picks up a lot of negative utility in this set up because of the combined nature of [ we don't get night flips] + [we started with a confirmed count of scum.]

If you ignore me, and decide that you want to shoot anyways because you have a shiny gun and want to use it, then make sure you announce your target before thread lock, so that if you are assimilated, we will still know what kill was because of you and what kill was related to the scum team.

[Fuchs~]

If I shoot a target and my target doesn’t die, then the only options are that both myself and Clark are scum,
Or that both Clark and myself are town.

If I live long enough to shoot, then Clark was protecting me regardless of alignment.

Oh. This plan is worse then what I thought it was. Cross shooting at one another would be better in basically every way lmao.

Like assume you both make it to night 2, and you set up your coordination

Out comes from cross shooting:
Clark Town: Clark is confirmed town AND Clark protected you on Night 2.
Clark Scum: Confirmed scum Clark is dead.

Out comes from your plan:
Clark Town: Clark is confirmed town. You are not protected Night 2
Clark Scum: Your target dies (we don't know their alignment), Clark abandons slot and we have to hunt for him all over again.

-----

And I don't even want to do the cross shooting plan because the above outcomes requires the original assumption

Like assume you both make it to night 2, and you set up your coordination

Which is flawed, because what stops any of these things from happening:

Scum!Clark, he just leaves his slot night 1

Scum!Clark's scum team assimilates you tonight. Tomorrow they do their best to impersonate you, and then when they "coordinate" with Clark, they just... don't kill that person. Clark confirmed town, job well done. They then assimilate out of your slot since 2 kills will not happen (by saying you want to shoot at someone with out the protection) OR they say you should keep getting protected by clark, and therefore cannot make 2 kills happen until Clark is dead.


Your plan is not a full proof plan, your plan revolves around the benefits if clark is town and broadly dismisss the negative if clark is scum by saying assimilation is impossible to pull off.

From my PoV, your plan is good if Clark is town, but bad if Clark is scum. So, gotta fall back on judging the decision on what I think his alignment is, and his play at all points in time while close to elimination say scum to me.

[Fuchs~]

Out comes from cross shooting:
Clark Town: Clark is confirmed town AND Clark protected you on Night 2.
Clark Scum: Confirmed scum Clark is dead.

Out comes from your plan:
Clark Town: Clark is confirmed town. You are not protected Night 2
Clark Scum: Your target dies (we don't know their alignment), Clark abandons slot and we have to hunt for him all over again.

Actually sorry. The town outcome is the same for either, but the scum outcome is still worse. Brain did not brain correctly.

[Fuchs~]

I'm just waiting for the Clark elim at this point.

Fuchs do you want to talk about Palmer? Are you still suspicious there? I'm curious on your thoughts

I feel like I fully voiced my thoughts on him. There is nothing that has come from him since that has swayed my position on him in a vacuum.

His reaction to Clarks claim in 539 do seem less likely as partners, as it has the function of discouraging a PR from outing vs a jailkeeper fake claim that likely would have been chosen to bait one out. So a Clark scum flip would probably soften the read somewhat -- but that would also entail a full re-eval from the PoV of confirmed scum!Clark anyways.

[Fuchs~]

If successful assimilation is as hard as you make it sound - "nigh impossible" - doesn't that mean the JK plus vig combo is at best "borderline balanced" in this game also?

Well the mod wouldn't balance on assimilation being difficult, he'd balance if anything off the opposite--which means we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise.

It is pretty wild to make an assertion about the needed PRs to balance towns power when there are exactly 2 claimed slots.

Like, this has the built in assumption that there are not other PRs floating out

[Fuchs~]

If successful assimilation is as hard as you make it sound - "nigh impossible" - doesn't that mean the JK plus vig combo is at best "borderline balanced" in this game also?

Well the mod wouldn't balance on assimilation being difficult, he'd balance if anything off the opposite--which means we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise.

It is pretty wild to make an assertion about the needed PRs to balance towns power when there are exactly 2 claimed slots.

Like, this has the built in assumption that there are not other PRs floating out

Actually, no, it doesn't.

I've never claimed that our power is going to be just two roles. It's not, i just see no reason to say what it WOULD be.

But, Jailkeeper with my role is definitely the MAJORITY of the power.
Not all of it.
But hands-down the strongest two roles, designed to work in tandem.

Your statement was that "we NEED the Jailkeeper to be town balance-wise"

This is not a statement that can be made with just the information that is available. There are 11 unclaimed slots out there. For all I know, hidden amongst those unclaimed slots there are actually so many PRs out there that having a Jailkeeper on top of them would be way too powerful

How can you say that we "NEED" it in order to be balance, when we have no idea the amount of power that exists in the unclaimed roles?

But, Jailkeeper with my role is definitely the MAJORITY of the power.
Not all of it.
But hands-down the strongest two roles, designed to work in tandem.

This is a circular argument.

You first assume that a Jailkeeper and a Vig exist, then decide that that is the appropriate amount of power for a town tow have, then conclude that Clark is a town Jailkeeper.

But that first assumption, that there is a jailkeeper and a vig, relies on the Clark being town

Like, can you really not imagine ANY OTHER combination of town Power Roles that could be balanced with Vigilante + (insert unknown, unclaimed, PRs).

There are infinite combinations of a vig + 9 other townies, that don't have a jailkeeper, that could be balanced in this game, and you are proclaiming that none of those are possible.

[Fuchs~]

I'm just waiting for the Clark elim at this point.

Fuchs do you want to talk about Palmer? Are you still suspicious there? I'm curious on your thoughts

I feel like I fully voiced my thoughts on him. There is nothing that has come from him since that has swayed my position on him in a vacuum.

His reaction to Clarks claim in 539 do seem less likely as partners, as it has the function of discouraging a PR from outing vs a jailkeeper fake claim that likely would have been chosen to bait one out. So a Clark scum flip would probably soften the read somewhat -- but that would also entail a full re-eval from the PoV of confirmed scum!Clark anyways.

Okay fair, I just was curious if you had any more thoughts that you hadn't gone into fully. I feel a little conflicted on him but lean scum, and if you had a strong read I'd feel better about being more confident there

I don't think he's unlikely to be a Clark partner, personally

You are welcome to go back through my ISO doing a control+f for "Palmer"

I still stand by all of it, and think that there are lots of reasons to think he could be scum here. He was my single strongest scum read until Clark did his naked Jailkeeper claim, and now he is chilling in second place just because someone else got scummier -- not that he got townier

[Fuchs~]

Just a follow up for Childs, who even do you want us to kill over Clark?

[Fuchs~]

Night actions will be resolved on their original target. Assimilation takes place last in the order of Night Action Resolution.

@Mod how does this even work.

hypothetically if a vigilante targeted a thing who was assimilating another player and there are no other night actions, what happens?

My assumption is that when mafia assimilate, its actually 2 actions. First kill the target. Second take over that target's slot.

So if a Vig shot mafia who was attempting to assimilate, then the mafia would kill their target and the vigilante would kill that mafia at the same time.

Since the mafia is dead when it is time to resolve that action, it does not happen.

The mafia target is announced to have died and the vigilante target is announced to have died. .

[Fuchs~]

Childs seems to be of the opinion that being a vig is the bees knees for town power in this game, I still think that a vig is much worse in this set up then the average one (which is why I did not expect one to begin with).

I actually think that the best use of that role would have been to play like you are a VT, holstering for several nights, until maybe late into the game, but that is now impossible so :shrug:

[Fuchs~]

Well this day sure is still happening

[Fuchs~]

Well this day sure is still happening

[Fuchs~]

But not completely invalid, because (from what I understand) the assimilation can potentially get blocked, and they maybe don't want to have to use it on jumping out of a doomed slot.

What has given you this impression?

Like, specifically the assimilation getting blocked? Not the night kill also getting blocked?

[Fuchs~]

Childs, clark was already hammered

[Fuchs~]

It is kind of silly to see you simultaneously argue that jailkeeper + vigilante is the most balanced possible combo, while also arguing that you have a full proof game plan to break the game open by combining those two roles.

But I also believe that you believe it, so :shrug:

[Fuchs~]

Childs, clark was already hammered

And whose fault is that?

I made it quite clear not to vote Clark.

I made it quite clear I had more to say.

I made it quite clear that I was limited in my availability at the time to explain myself--and right now is the first time I have had that ability.

So don't fucking pretend that this is in any way shape or form anything but YOUR fault. (Collective you, every voter on the wagon.)

WHEN Clark flips town jailkeeper and I die immediately after that, I suppose I should tell you for the future that I lied about having my only gate be Novice, there's another gate beyond that. A quite severe one actually but I wasn't gonna out that without reason. (It's just that now that I'm a guaranteed N1 death I have no choice but to since it won't flip when I die.)

I am not blaming anyone, because I wanted it to happen. I actively asked for a hammer to happen, because nothing was happening in the thread for over 24 hours.

But I do think that it is silly for you to be mad that you said "Give me time to not be on mobile and I can engage better," then not check back for well over a day and a half, and be mad that the entire thread did not sit around and do nothing while you were gone.

[Fuchs~]

I was under a prod timer--it took less than a prod timer's worth of time for me to return to the game thread and not be on mobile.

That's plenty acceptable in any game; don't fucking pretend it wasn't.

Yes I have the right to be mad

To be clear, I was not accusing you of being gone too long. I am pro-prioritze your life outside mafia.

Just, also, you seem to think I should feel bad, and I just don't feel bad about not wanting to sit around in a game. Not my idea of a fun time, and I don't feel like letting thread apathy set in is very pro-town.

Pictured below, my own apathy setting in.

Spoiler: Every post I felt like contributing for the entire day

Well this day sure is still happening

Well this day sure is still happening

[Fuchs~]

Well that sidetracks the discussion from where I was going, but this is definitely more actionable lol

[Fuchs~]

One thing that I was thinking about during the night was the fact that since no one flips the PR role on death, that it might be beneficial for invests to reveal their information directly instead of trying to leave softs on their results (since we won't have a flip to use then decode the meaning of the softs).

And here we are with an invest claim out the gate lol

[Fuchs~]

Niceeee

Actually now that you mention it, vigi is relatively good since it means we can successfully resolve a 50/50 without things being able to assimilate

Trueeee

I was kind of sitting here wondering about whether palmer would fake a guilty planning to body swap tonight, but with the vig out there, they can just shoot them if windows flips town.

[Fuchs~]

Yeah, seems prudent that Childs reveals if their shot is gated

[Fuchs~]

I was also town reading Lars. He did not seem like a slot that would need to slot abandon, and if he was scum could have just... stayed Lars.

[Fuchs~]

623 is... interesting.

Which is also why I reacted this way to petapan's explanation.

If we believe Childs to be a novice vigilante and to still be human, I am not entirely opposed to burning me today, and then Windows being shot once I flip town.

I haven't yet processed Lars's death or the fact that Childs is still alive, though. On my reread during the Night, I wasn't feeling like Lars is scum.

huh, that is kind of wild.

If you invested a townie on the same night that scum assimilated it, you would have an inno result on a scum slot the following day.

[Fuchs~]

Huh
Ok then yeah, from my POV you can't have been assimilated, and from your POV I couldn't have

More then that, Blair is confirmed town from your PoV, because scum cannot have any PRs.

Blair is nearly an IC at this point, as the only world where Blair is scum toDay is exactly a Blair+MacReady scum team.

Macready is confirmed "Not Assimilated" but not confirmed town.

[Fuchs~]

Crazy how strong this set up made a Mailman role

[Fuchs~]

if I don't write a super cool diary entry tomorrow plz kill me

Blair, I know that you are confirmed town for the day, but if you being confirmed town means I dont get a super cool diary entry, then I will be sad

[Fuchs~]

On one hand, day 1 I town read windows and scum read palmer.

On the other hand, this seems like a really dumb play for scum palmer to make unless we are saying the scum team was exactly Lars+Palmer, and Lars scum was confident in their ability to impersonate Childs.

But even then, Windows does not feel like the go to target to fake a guilty on given how scum read he was Day 1.

[Fuchs~]

faking a guilty is one of those things i would love to do in this game because you can always abandon your slot after the fact. I also felt kind of susp of Palmer on day one to begin with - I think there is a good chance the convo between Palmer and Clark at beginning of day was badly done scum theatre

I hope Childs is town because Palmer needs shooting after I flip town.
For those who aren't me (I know I'm town) is it likely town cop investigates someone who is under suspicion from D1 and therefore a reasonable possibility of assimilating away? Compared with getting an inno on someone more likely to still be themselves today?

I'm VT by the way. Sorry Palmer if you were trying to fish for another town PR with this gambit.

Why did neither of these come with a Palmer vote?

[Fuchs~]

On one hand, day 1 I town read windows and scum read palmer.

On the other hand, this seems like a really dumb play for scum palmer to make unless we are saying the scum team was exactly Lars+Palmer, and Lars scum was confident in their ability to impersonate Childs.

But even then, Windows does not feel like the go to target to fake a guilty on given how scum read he was Day 1.

They're just trying to rush a guilty through I think? In the knowledge Childs won't kill Palmer because Lars is Childs.

And actually taking out the vig by assimilating into them makes sense if they think they can rush the guilty through before Lars has to try too hard to pretend to be Childs.

It means after one of them is limmed tomorrow they're 6v1 on D4. That's not great, but consider that if one of them got limmed today they'd be 8v1 tomorrow. Or 7v1 if we directed the vig shot to kill one of them

So, is your solve for this situation Palmer + Childs (who is actually Lars)?

[Fuchs~]

Childs, which of the two do you think is better to kill today, and which is better to have you on it the first one flips green?

[Fuchs~]

Childs, how do you feel about the mechanical balance of your role and the existance of a 1 shot cop?

Does that feel balanced to you? If they are both in the game, what do you think that that means for the other PRs in the game?

How do they mesh with a mailman, which, in this set up is functionally an IC + Assimilation tester?

Do you think that cop+vig+mailman all fit in this game together? And if they are all in the game together, do you think that that is the full extent of our PRs?

[Fuchs~]

MacReady conftown for now

Blair's ability did not confirm MacReady. It just showed that he had not been assimilated Night 1, but did not tell us if he started as a Thing

[Fuchs~]

When we're ready we can vote Windows.

Absolutely no one vote windows or palmer until we finish talking with Childs long enough to be confident that they are still the same person

[Fuchs~]

Childs, how do you feel about the mechanical balance of your role and the existance of a 1 shot cop?

Does that feel balanced to you? If they are both in the game, what do you think that that means for the other PRs in the game?

How do they mesh with a mailman, which, in this set up is functionally an IC + Assimilation tester?

Do you think that cop+vig+mailman all fit in this game together? And if they are all in the game together, do you think that that is the full extent of our PRs?

@Childs, please respond

[Fuchs~]

But if (when, actually) Windows flips scum, I should holster.

um... the main down side of your PR in this set up (the fact that we don't know if you kill killed scum or town) immediately goes away if there is only 1 scum left lol.

[Fuchs~]

I buy the 1x cop claim. Bit surprised it's not a gunsmith tbh, but it being a one-shot hard-investigative still tracks with my own gate.

Even in light of the mailman?

And do you think that with cop+vig+mailmain, we would be capped out on PRs at that point? Or do you think there could be more on top of that without it crossing into too much?

[Fuchs~]

Windows is the better lim here always.

To suggest otherwise is delusional.

This is only true, if were are judging from the POV of knowing your alignment.

If you are in question, I think that killing Palmer first is the better play.

Killing Windows first:

Windows is scum! Yay! 1 scum dead, 0 town dead
Windows is town, and Palmer is scum with Childs. No scum dies. 0 scum dead, 1 town dead

Killing Palmer first:

Palmer is scum! Yay! 1 scum dead, 0 town dead
Palmer is town, and Windows is scum. Childs kills them. 1 scum dead, 1 town dead


If we are 100% confident that childs is childs, we kill windows.
If there is a chance that this is a childs!Lars + Palmer gambit, we kill Palmer which still kills a scum regardless of which world we live in.


Which is why my number one concern atm is figuring you out

[Fuchs~]

{snip}

{snip}

This is actually killing me.

Day 1, Childs use this emoji 6 times in the entirety of the day. Which was definitely enough for it to be noticeable as something that Childs does use

But then today, Childs has used it 12 times in the last 30 mins. Which, given the discrepancy in frequency, feels more like a purposeful imitation of someone who felt like "Childs uses " was a fundamental aspect of pretending to be them

[Fuchs~]

Childs, if I am wrong, then I am wrong, and you kill windows, and scum still dies.

But I am not confident that you are you, and therefore, think I would prefer we kill Palmer first.

[Fuchs~]

My concern is compounded by Childs quick

When we're ready we can vote Windows.

Which was apparently made while still mid catching up on the day's posts.

[Fuchs~]

I'm quite confident in my ability to be town even without a shot, but I have a shot and frankly, fuck what I said about not trusting my accuracy. You eliminate Palmer first, then obviously I have to shoot Windows but I'll be hard-tunneled in on the Palmer voters and never vote outside of them for as long as I live. (Or until I believe that the last scum has hopped into a non-Palmer voter.)

You turning my concerns into a threat against me sure does not make me feel better about you that is for sure.

[Fuchs~]

I am going to think on it some more.

And hopefully more people can weigh in on the is Childs Childs thing.

[Fuchs~]

Windows is town, and Palmer is scum with Childs. No scum dies. 0 scum dead, 1 town dead

Fuchs, I know you scumread me, but can you at least acknowledge my posts? This part is inaccurate. A scum elimination is forced the Day after.

I thought of that, but did not spell it out.

You assimilate out, you flip, Childs claims they killed you.

There is a missing kill, and we have to all out if we are a protective.

If there is a protective, then it is now uncertain if we childs even is scum, or if the kill was stopped, and the protective is outed.

If there is not a protective, then we kill Childs dies.

I see that that last line would be a pretty strong deterrent for you to do this gambit, and that is part of why I am still thinking and have not voted.

If we do go the route of killing Windows first and he flips town, it is important that any protectives out there holster tonight.

[Fuchs~]

I was actually leaning pretty hard towards voting windows first before I saw the emoji thing and started to doubt childs

[Fuchs~]

But I am not confident that you are you, and therefore, think I would prefer we kill Palmer first.

Yeah fuck that.

If you push Palmer through I'm gunning for you (haha*) after the fact. I can't literally shoot you since my shot is hard-locked to Windows then, but I ain't gonna let that stand.

(*technically, my vig flavor is a flamethrower, not a gun, but...)

This post also does not make me feel better about childs

[Fuchs~]

Whatever, the order of business is still convincing you all I'm town.

Palmer, to be frank with you, I can very little about your alignment at the moment, because my planning and sorting for you and windows hinges pretty heavily around Childs.

So, focusing there is by far the more important thing to me, and you come later.

What are your thoughts about whether childs is childs?

[Fuchs~]

if you fucking force me to use it on a target I don't fucking want to use it on by eliminating someone I have full confidence in being town

This sentence really says "If you force me to use it on a target I don't want to use it on (said target being confirmed scum in the hypothetical scenario)" lmao

[Fuchs~]

because my planning and sorting for you and windows hinges pretty heavily around Childs.

Why? Even if Childs has been assimilated, that doesn't instantly make me scum or Windows town..

Because Thing!Childs drastically changes the calculus on whether you would do this, and also determines if we have a second shot into the Palmer/Windows pair if we get it wrong.

Making that my prioriry.

We have plenty of time for me to work through my thoughts on Childs, and then still have time to work through my thoughts on the two of you.

My current thoughts are that Childs is still town

Based off of what?

[Fuchs~]

There is a missing kill, and we have to all out if we are a protective. If there is a protective, then it is now uncertain if we childs even is scum, or if the kill was stopped, and the protective is outed. If there is not a protective, then we kill Childs dies. I see that that last line would be a pretty strong deterrent for you to do this gambit, and that is part of why I am still thinking and have not voted. If we do go the route of killing Windows first and he flips town, it is important that any protectives out there holster tonight.

For the record I really wanna shoot Fuchs at this point tbh.

I'm not interested in sharing my thoughts on protectives in light of the mailman and cop claims.

There's reasonable caution to be had, sure--but there's a difference between "reasonable caution" and "trying to salvage the scumteam that is in shambles".

And Fuchs pushing the idea that I'm a scum Lars is crossing into the latter.

See, you are not even asking if it makes sense for town to be worried about your assimilation.

Despite you literally being a claimed pr who was fairly widely town read, and Lars being unclaimed and only mildly town read

Of course I should be considering that possibility.

And furthermore, you are the person who said : we need to comb over people's posts to check for assimilation. But then don't even consider the fact that I did just that to spot the emoji discrepency, or to think whether it makes since for a townie, who saw that, to be concerned.

[Fuchs~]

I went back to see if Childs reads on windows and Palmer day 1 carried over, and realized that every alignment post about both of those slots came before the childs replacement, and is therefore useless information.

Anyways.

As I have said a couple times, at this point I kind of want to stop and think through my immediate paranoia

[Fuchs~]

if you fucking force me to use it on a target I don't fucking want to use it on by eliminating someone I have full confidence in being town

This sentence really says "If you force me to use it on a target I don't want to use it on (said target being confirmed scum in the hypothetical scenario)" lmao

Yeah no fucking shit.

If I am forced to vig someone I wanted to eliminate, I'm gonna be fucking pissed.

Also, whoops, I think that in having said that I accidentally slipped what my gate was.

To be clear, I'm one-shot. A 1-shot Novice Vigilante.

Once, I vig a player with a flamethrower, but can't use it N1. And yeah, it's written into the role PM itself that the target's alignment won't flip. (I wanted to check with the mod about that yesterday, before realizing it was in the original role PM itself and thus, that I didn't need to ask the mod.)

I probably shouldn't have revealed that, but I accidentally let it slip with giving away that I couldn't kill after making a vig N2, so...oops?

How did your clark plan work if you were one shot?

If I shoot and my target doesn't die, my shot failed due to a town PR--Clark, in this case.

Whenever that happens, Clark cannot be scum.
If my shot fails N2, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N3, Clark is town.
If my shot fails N4, Clark is town.
Every night my shot fails, Clark is confirmed to be town.

If Clark is alive and my shot ever succeeds--then Clark is confirmed to be scum.

Because this immediately stops working after night 2 if you really are 1 shot...

[Fuchs~]

On a different note: Childs, if Clark is scum, how/when do you propose taking care of the slot?

The day my shot succeeds, obviously. Or if Clark shows up dead N1

Like, you were asked point blank when your plan reveals a clark assimilation, and your answer does not make any sense if you are 1 shot

[Fuchs~]

This page has both somewhat alleviated my concern that childs is not childs, while simultaneously making me very frustrated with childs for their plan yesterday. Like, the attempt to force the town into a game plan, based on a lie, that only actually works if you read is right, and fucks the town over if it is wrong...

While leaving the possibility of misinformation for the town, because if they did die their pm does not flip to clear up where they lied...

But also, this page is the first page that actually reads in a way that makes me fairly confident that they are the same person.

[Fuchs~]

If I used it as much D1 as I would normally be inclined to, then on D2 someone would use it as much as I am.

It was specifically me holding back that made it easier for me to identify me as me today.

Just gotta say, this is a dumb plan.

If you make your self different, on purpose, day 1. And then don't do it day 2, the end result is not to make it EASIER to identify you on day 2.

Instead, that purposeful difference just... makes the days look different...

[Fuchs~]

* Purposefully changes typing pattern from day 1 -> day 2

* Sees someone spot the difference and thinks its indicative of an assimilation

Spoiler: *

[Fuchs~]

Anyways. Done with doing that.

I think that this means that we kill Windows today, but still gonna think on it some

[Fuchs~]

I don't trust my read accuracy; my reads aren't worth shit.

ngl this doesn't sound like you from day one

I get the feeling that Childs values their own set up spec more then they value their reads, and most of what they did yesterday was based on set up spec, so :shrug:

[Fuchs~]

Assuming unreliable cops are too bastard to be in this setup it's definitely 50-50 between me and Palmer.
Palmer Childs is a possible scumteam but me Childs isn't as likely.
Childs is town if Palmer is town.

Trying my best to be objective here: it's best for us to lim Palmer first. Because then if Palmer is scum we've killed scum. Whereas if Palmer is town Childs is town and can vig me. Either way, one more scum is dead by D3.
Whereas if we lim me first and Palmer is scum with Childs, we go into D3 without any more scum dead.

This feels like you copy and pasted my argument, reworded it, and forgot to credit me.

Plagiarism is a crime Windows.

[Fuchs~]

if I don't write a super cool diary entry tomorrow plz kill me

Blair, I know that you are confirmed town for the day, but if you being confirmed town means I dont get a super cool diary entry, then I will be sad

HURT: Blair

[Fuchs~]

Journal Entry#2

November 11th 2022: McMurdo Station, Antarctica

I'll never forget his eyes as he stared at me. The tears, the begging, the pleading.

After we locked him in the cage he banged on it piteously screaming that he was human. that we were

wrong

. that he had a wife and kids waiting for him in Canada.

The decision had already been made - to falter now would be to plunge into the darkness and surrender to

them

. At least that's what we told ourselves as we began spraying him with the flamethrowers.

The smell of burning flesh. His screaming reaching new heights as his skin began to burn under the heat. I had to force myself to keep looking. To

see

if I had condemned an innocent man.

As his body withered away under the flames,

it

rushed out at us; faster than the eye could see it slammed into bars with force that bent them in a dozen places. Too late..

It screamed at us as it thrashed against the cage, the last death struggles of a dying monster. I could see murderous intent in its eyes. It hated us so much.

We burned it for another hour after it stopped moving just to make sure. Exhausted - we cleaned up the ashes and made our way back to our bunks.

None of us would sleep well that night.

HEAL: Blair

[Fuchs~]

It's wild to me that you're going with 'unreliable town cop' Palmer over 'scum Palmer'

Agreed

[Fuchs~]

This day has been super interesting as a reaction test but it is now time for me to reveal the proof that Palmer's claim to have a guilty is a lie. I was hoping not to have to out my role but,

I am a

0.5-shot rolecop

--

Anyhow, last night I investigated Palmer and got back the following result:

*h*n*

This proves that Palmer is either a Thing, or a Phony, or a river (either the Rhone or the Rhine). Possibly even a Thong. But definitely not a one shot cop, or I would have received *n*s*o*c*p. Or o*e*h*t*o* depending which ear I was listening with at the time.

So, time to vote out Palmer.

VOTE: Palmer

It is pretty funny how bad this is. It really helps when scum just out themselves.

*has this result [*h*n*g]*
*makes post 901*

I feel like petapan might have slipped an unreliable cop in here.

Also the implication that a rolecop in this game would get the result "thing" for a thing, when role cops are pretty explicitly designed to tell you a role but not an alignment.

[Fuchs~]

Walking into the night with a hard cleared Palmer and a hard cleared Blair feels good.

Childs shooting also clears Childs. So, Childs should probably shoot now that we are going down to 1 scum.

[Fuchs~]

Blair~
Palmer~
MacReady~

Copper~
Norris~

Garry~
Nauls~
Bennings~

Not looking back at all yet, just vaguely looking at the player list on where I would plant the shot.

Gonna look back over the bottom three for partner-y things

[Fuchs~]

Garry

Very consistently pushed Clark from the start

Windows: Declines to vote windows with no read in 93
Has windows as one of his top town read in 221, still going in 537

The weirdest thing to me, is seeing the strength of his Windows town read, and the level of his Palmer town read

I'm slightly tring palmer for latest posts.
It feels genuine and they seem to be trying to solve.

And then immediately trusting the Palmer result, and even voting. There is no hesitancy - and multiplied with 818 where he agrees with my comments about Childs, but then lands on "even if childs has been assimilated, I think that Palmer is town." Which I guess means he was landing on the Windows+Childs possibility, which feels off given his prior relative reads on Windows and Palmer.

I can see this being a scum reaction to a partner being guiltied.

All in all, I got the impression: does not look very partnered with Clark, maybe partnered with windows



Nauls
I was worried about Nauls, because I was seeing a lots of fencesitting about Clark, but then I hit this post

Clark is on E-2. Do not vote vote him.

With scum being able to jump accounts, putting someone on E-1 means scum could safely hammer and then jump away.

Also the fact the moment where the current wagons get questioned and momentum towards a Windows wagon actually starts to form, 2 players randomly show up to reawaken the Clark wagon, which they’ve been quiet on for a while. Veeeery iffy on that.

VOTE: Windows

Fuchs in particular looks bad.
Windows only mentioned Fuchs once ever and it wasn’t even when talking about their alignment. Fuchs has been quiet on Windows’ alignment and suddenly decided they liked a single post from Windows, then following that up with the vote on Clark saying they think all other wagons are on town.
May I remind you that Fuchs very briefly calling a single one of Windows’ post townie is his entire stance there.
Doesn’t help that every Fuchs post since 83 has varied from meh to bad and the Palmer push still looks terrible.

Pedit: 400 kind of looks more like scum defending a townie than scum/scum actually, which is interesting. Though it could just be Fuchs trying to justify a read that has no actual justification because he just made it up, regardless of Windows’ alignment.
Ppedit: 401 disagree. Scum can find things they assume to be gotchas and cling onto them, it’s not a purely town thing.
Pppedit: Timing!

And the freak out to save partner 1, while moving your vote to partner 2, seems like an unlikely course of action.

I am going to actually say its just not Nauls lol.



Bennings does not do much talking about clark at all until 522, which is after he has claimed. Here he is calling their play around claiming bad, but it comes after both myself, macready, and Palmer have all said the same analysis of his play. He then starts getting more on board with the Clark wagon, but not until after it seemed pretty inevitable


Bennings make 0 statements on Window's alignment during the whole game. This is the closest it ever gets

If they were stupid enough to try they aren't going to be stupid enough to try now you've pointed it out... I don't see the town motivation for posting this now rather than say sometime in D2.

also to follow up on this, why would scum even write this in the thread, then? feels nitpicky to say it's not town motivated but not see that it's also very difficult for it to be scum motivated?

[Fuchs~]

I think that Bennings is the best bet here for the Childs shot.

[Fuchs~]

I would like for Childs to confirm their shot before we lock for the day.