Micro 1065 Coalition Game Over!

[Dannflor]

HEAL: ydrasse

[Dannflor]

@mod V/LA until Sunday night

[Dannflor]

Junko why are you
Nervous posting

[Dannflor]

HEAL: junkochan, una, unwnd, vanderscamp, ydrasse

greeting and lucian seem like mafia

[Dannflor]

those two posts just make me want to conf bias

[Dannflor]

greeting and lucian seem like mafia

Why the second one?

not putting yourself in your coalition when you are Trying to Town is suspicious

[Dannflor]

menalque it feels like your words on unwnd don't match your coalition vote

is your uncertainty on him REAL

[Dannflor]

@mena ur hot vote ME in

[Dannflor]

is the distinction between unwnd and ydrasse a factor of how many times you have personally been fooled

[Dannflor]

if you were to sort greeting and vanders based off nothing but the gut pings in your heart of hearts (ignore the mixed metaphor) where would you sort them

[Dannflor]

it's not not wolfy but i also don't think it is inconsistent with menalque's general approach to mafia

[Dannflor]

how many negatives was that

[Dannflor]

yeah it annoys me but I'd rather not argue about it

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

probably

I am in a general phase right now of being a try hard and getting gud and trying to improve my read accuracy significantly

[Dannflor]

I have no particular feelings about my ability to read her one way or another

probably about average

[Dannflor]

I agree

[Dannflor]

Una where is your
Whimsy posting

[Dannflor]

does making that point make me town?

[Dannflor]

...to look town?

[Dannflor]

do you have other town reads

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: my lucian greeting solve? feedback pls

I still think Greeting and Lucian are scum together. I tried to reread the game without the lens of confbias but I probably just fooled myself into thinking that I did that.

Scum are incentivized to bus each other in this setup. It's slightly higher EV for scum if one of them is outside the coalition and one of them is within it. After all, if the coalition fails, all eyes are turning towards the coalition to find scum first, and the longer it takes to hit scum within the coalition, the better it is for scum. Now, there is a lot of WIFOM involved with this, of course, but intuitively, I think it makes sense for scum to want to distance early in this game.

So far, I find the dynamic between Greeting and Lucian to be the most awkward and unnatural out of any dynamic in this game.

@Dannflor, do you have any other thoughts on my alignment besides the fact I didn't heal myself? And how did that thought progress for you by now?

I didn't actually think that made you scum. I made that reason up when you asked me because I wasn't ready to talk about this yet. I am now.

I think you seem anxious to explain every inch of your trajectory on every slot. Your focus seems to be more on showing how Town you can be and not so much on testing other people's alignments.

When you make a post like 95, I get the sense that you made it in order to show that you are thinking about the game, but I don't get the sense you actually care about what thoughts are in it. If you say something like "her reasons for townreading me are not great," I don't understand why that wasn't something you prodded Una on before you made such a post town reading her for that.

I suppose the best way to explain it is that you just feel not very curious. When you make posts like 101 or 212, it doesn't read like you're asking questions or continuing a line of discussion in order to discern alignment, it feels like you are continuing a line of discussion

in order to argue about it

. When you do ask questions that are ostensibly to determine alignment, it feels like busywork. Asking Menalque why in 184 or me about my read on you in 214 feels hollow when you vote us for your coalition anyway and ostensibly town read us already. There's no attempted pressure really. It feels like you're just going through the steps you think you should have to go through before you can "lock-in" your town reads on us. I mean, is Menalque explaining those three reads going to drastically change your read on him?

I think I expect more dynamic play from you as town. Like when you poke slots it seems half-hearted, I'm not sure how to express my feeling beyond that.

I also really keep coming back to 212 and wondering why you made it. It doesn't feel like its purpose is to sort Una's alignment, especially because you happily threw her in a coalition shortly after.

I am also skeptical of your motivation for posting 215 after you had already made 186. There is a disproportionate amount of your words devoted to scum reading Greeting versus town reading other slots.

======

As far as Greeting goes, I am predisposed to scum reading posts like 66 that feel like scum wanted to make a solid entrance into the thread but was awkward about making Actual Content.

The scum read on Lucian is just kind of over the top and as Una already observed, 120 feels like the conclusion of the post came before the thought.

122 is a strange post to make as town because it means Greeting isn't curious enough about Lucian's alignment to actually read his posts, despite ostensibly scum reading him at this point? Or maybe just not town reading Lucian is the more appropriate characterization here. Still, I would expect scum!Greeting and town!Greeting to read and respond to town!Lucian's 95 because Lucian namedrops Greeting in that post and people are super sensitive to their name being dropped.

So, the conclusion I draw is that Greeting is interacting with Lucian for the sake of interacting with him. I do not get the sense that either Lucian or Greeting care about sorting the other's alignment.

What's so towny about that post?

This is kind of a question that has already been answered by multiple people in thread and I think a townie with curiosity would be on a deeper level at this point in their conversation with Lucian. It's also like never followed up on and just again feels like Greeting is interacting with Lucian in a hollow way.

Empty question tell can also be applied to 208. There are many other much more alignment indicative things to pick Una about. These questions look like busy work.

======

This wall got too big.

UNVOTE:

HEAL: junkochan, menalque, una, unwnd, ydrasse

I think Vanderscamp could go in here but he's a little harder to town case than everyone else. The comfortable acknowledgement of their non-obvtowniness in "No, good question though!" to Una in 118 feels gut townie to me. Maybe it's excitement about the game without forcing it? They seem to be playing slow and not too stressed about being in the coalition. Could mean their buddy is someone like Lucian or ydrasse who is really trying to be in the coalition but I don't really feel it.

Menalque is towny, I think. It's a little counterintuitive as scum to open the game by alienating two townies. I guess I have to consider a Menalque/Ydrasse team. I guess if I am honest I think a Menalque/Ydrasse team is slightly more likely by the fact that Menalque probably won't vote for a coalition with Ydrasse in it. But my gut feeling was that their interactions on Page 7 were not scum theatre and that 154 was a Good Post. Still, as I'm typing this Menalque/Ydrasse is suddenly my paranoia solve.

I think Occam's Razor they are just town though and ydrasse did a cute thing I think where she healed me because she mind melded with me and that's +town just because having that background Actual Thought Process about the game is hard

I subscribe to the Ydrasse theory of Junkochan. I think Junko seems excited about the game but not stressed about showing she is town.

Una similarly seems interested in the game but not stressed about showing she's town.

unwnd same thing. I will actually case these people if wanted but I don't think the town reads here are unpopular and there are a lot of little things that will make this wall too big.

[Dannflor]

Lucian where did unwnd go in your coalition

[Dannflor]

and I'm sorry if I'm wrong and dumped that wall towards you I am very open to being Wrong so don't be discouraged

but if you're scum you can be a little bit discouraged

[Dannflor]

I should probably start doing that!

It would probably be better for collaboration and also my sanity

[Dannflor]

if it is more helpful to hash things out bit by bit that might be more parse-able than wall wars

[Dannflor]

so what is your read on unwnd right now? I'm also not really sure what you mean by his approach to your slot, he hasn't really interacted with you much tbh

[Dannflor]

so what is your read on unwnd right now? I'm also not really sure what you mean by his approach to your slot, he hasn't really interacted with you much tbh

A weird null? And yes, I know he hasn't interacted with me much, that's part of the problem - he suddenly dropped me as his #1 scumread, when I did not get that vibe from him before, and I'm struggling to see why he thinks so or how he arrived to that conclusion. It's... it feels to be bad-faith, but it's also in a moment where it doesn't greatly benefit scum to drop weird unexplained reads on my slot. It feels opportunistic, because it's not unpopular, but it's also not

necessary

for scum-him to do?

why didn't you ask him about the read?

[Dannflor]

I also really keep coming back to 212 and wondering why you made it. It doesn't feel like its purpose is to sort Una's alignment, especially because you happily threw her in a coalition shortly after.

Una where is your
Whimsy posting

I'm ladylike and refined.
Nobody likes whimsy posting.

HEAL: junkochan, menalque, una, unwnd, ydrasse

I got a response I liked

[Dannflor]

I empathize with your response Lucian

I have felt myself in a similar position a lot as town

granted I've also felt myself in that position as scum

[Dannflor]

Effort is very easy to fake however. I know this from experience. I've made my millions by faking effort. It is a strategy to try and overwhelm someone and make it sound convincing.

Lucian's approach isn't exactly

overwhelming

, but the basis of my scumread is closely related to the act of convincing someone. Lucian's posts (as a whole) is that he looks like he's trying to convince

himself.

To convince oneself his mentality is green even when the shade of his role PM contradicts.

This very notion is exacerbated by his odd willingness to back down on things when given even the slightest amount of pushback. We had a conversation about Junko and both agreed that was she did was weird. OK. Why are we here now where he suddenly agrees with Junko being town. It's not that townies can't be influenced by those around them, but that read in particular felt quite strong even if early. The processing in which his thoughts formulate are sort of always keeping close to what everyone is doing instead of what he should be doing. This type of willingness to engage would be alright if he were offering some sort of perspective in the mix. He really hasn't and he continues to make observation without trying to reach conclusion.

I thought this post was 18 as first

[Dannflor]

lucian I don't really jive with your read on ydrasse

is there something about her solving that feels slimy to you?

[Dannflor]

just 1?

[Dannflor]

Dannflor did you genuinely doubt my alignment based on posting style

no it was more just curiosity but i thought it could be interesting what you'd say

[Dannflor]

well im currently not trying to build a coalition with any of those players in it

[Dannflor]

I don't follow

i don't think whimsy posting = town you nor do i think whimsy posting = having fun

I actually think you whimsy post more as scum but I haven't played with scum you in a long time

[Dannflor]

I need to stop posting walls it's so bad

I always regret it like 20 minutes later

[Dannflor]

it's not that it's that I don't know how much I scum read Lucian anymore

[Dannflor]

I'm weak to AtE

[Dannflor]

I don't follow

i don't think whimsy posting = town you nor do i think whimsy posting = having fun

I actually think you whimsy post more as scum but I haven't played with scum you in a long time

Have you played with me before??

in a dream

[Dannflor]

it's not that it's that I don't know how much I scum read Lucian anymore

:3

Not to be annoying or anything, but what is your thought process here currently?

Pedit: I wasn't doing AtE...

mmmm I'm fading out of the thread because I think I need to reset and come back to have a good read on the last couple pages

I know you weren't trying to do AtE but the expression of being frustrated with Junko + having some frustration about getting into the game made my heart twinge

[Dannflor]

my heart is very bad at mafia you're right I should keep it under wraps

[Dannflor]

I haven't decided where I'm landing but yes I was always going to reevaluate you after getting your response to my wall?

[Dannflor]

I guess that post was also an implicit question for why did you shove my 212 under "not actually trying to sort alignment, but wanting to appear to do so" part of the wall?

in my mind it is just an example of you making posts about things but not really interacting with people in a natural way

like it's content for content's sake

and I don't know why Una bugs you so much there

[Dannflor]

It had an air of decisiveness

it was meant to

[Dannflor]

una what do you think of my coalition

[Dannflor]

I have never been mafia and never will be

[Dannflor]

I'm not throwing exactly

my flaw is just hubris

[Dannflor]

is it better to swap Vanderscamp for ydrasse? I am worried if it's wrong that Vanderscamp seems very miselimable

I want the scum in the coalition to have to fight hard

[Dannflor]

my only hesitation suddenly is the thought that menalque / ydrasse balking at each other might be scum / scum

idk pages 6 and 7 read very natural though

[Dannflor]

then probably this is not a realistic fear

[Dannflor]

I reread the last few pages and I don't really town read Lucian still

[Dannflor]

I myself recognize that I'm having more trouble this game than I was having last game. It's also part of the reason why some of my stuff seems "performative" I think; my best reads are when I can properly interact with people, but it seems to me that people this game have either already decided I'm scum, or just spending time interacting with the people they're familiar with, which I cannot properly read or interact with at all. So I'm hoping that I actually can enter the game properly, but I keep falling flat, kind of.

I think this is the thing I have most town read but it is kinda AtE so probably that is bad to base a town read off of

[Dannflor]

I resonate with it a lot. I feel like I've been in exactly the position he describes before. And I know how it can feel to try to penetrate a player list that all seems pretty familiar with each other and have comfortable repertoire with each other while you do not.

I think writing a lot about the stuff you feel strongest about is how I tend to try to become more invested in games where I'm struggling as town, so that makes some sense to me.

[Dannflor]

When you're scum dannflor (if there any instances of this) do you feel yourself leaning more bureaucratic?

I’m not quite sure what you mean by bureaucratic

I think the answer is no but maybe you could rephrase?

[Dannflor]

wolf wolf wolf

[Dannflor]

I also really keep coming back to 212 and wondering why you made it. It doesn't feel like its purpose is to sort Una's alignment, especially because you happily threw her in a coalition shortly after.

Una where is your
Whimsy posting

I'm ladylike and refined.
Nobody likes whimsy posting.

HEAL: junkochan, menalque, una, unwnd, ydrasse

[Dannflor]

this is a joke

[Dannflor]

I don't think vanderscamp is really being hypocritical anyway because activity alone is often NAI due to IRL influences

[Dannflor]

I think swapping in vanderscamp for someone is a good idea I just don’t know who yet

[Dannflor]

no one should roll scum

[Dannflor]

HEAL: Menalque, Una, unwnd, Vanderscamp, ydrasse

ok can we do this

we can swap me for menalque if you want

[Dannflor]

HEAL: JunkoChan, Una, Ydrasse, Vanderscamp, Dannflor

[Dannflor]

I did get cold feet on Junko thinking 81 and 87 were a little too performative but I'm not feeling it anymore after sleeping

[Dannflor]

307 feels like scum would be afraid of it being seen as TMI

[Dannflor]

HEAL: Dannflor, Junkochan, Vanderscamp, Una, Ydrasse sorry pooky that wasn't alphabetical

[Dannflor]

Why is unwnd town

mmmm I dunno

I was getting the feeling that his dense posts came more from trying to explain reachy town thought processes than scum trying to show off

but I don't have much more than that

[Dannflor]

I wonder if Lucian/unwnd is a thing

[Dannflor]

I feel like they just kinda, set up reads on each other without ever actually organically interacting

it's also interesting that lucian is unwnd's most developed read to the point where he has multiple paragraphs on lucian and almost nothing on anyone else

[Dannflor]

it’s consistent with him yes but i just go >_> more because of setup implications

I mean set up implications can be what they might but I've lost every game of coalition I've ever played and one of the things that fucks it (imo) is that if you let the hard-to-read people in then it becomes really hard to figure out who is/isn't scum

whereas if you keep the people with the best scum games out, it becomes a lot easier to solve should coalition fail

this is a good player list

applying this to me but not una or unwnd or even junkochan means you are not sticking to the principle consistently

blah it's fine I'm not sure this is actually scummy of you but I would appreciate the effort to actually try to read me

[Dannflor]

intentionally? maybe

idk how intentional it would be

[Dannflor]

why is that alarming

[Dannflor]

I think scum would be very keen to interact with each other in this setup

[Dannflor]

yes I think scum would want to intentionally interact with each other a lot in this setup

I do not know whether scum would intentionally forgo talking about reads / interacting with others in favor of that

I feel like I've been very clear on why I think my reasoning makes sense?

[Dannflor]

Scum are incentivized to bus each other in this setup. It's slightly higher EV for scum if one of them is outside the coalition and one of them is within it. After all, if the coalition fails, all eyes are turning towards the coalition to find scum first, and the longer it takes to hit scum within the coalition, the better it is for scum. Now, there is a lot of WIFOM involved with this, of course, but intuitively, I think it makes sense for scum to want to distance early in this game.

[Dannflor]

your thoughts stopping at "scum don't want to interact with each other generally" feels very unintuitive to me

that's true for like

newbie scum maybe?? I don't feel like you really believe in picking at this angle

[Dannflor]

well for one thing I don't think either you or unwnd have failed to interact with people

I remarked that it's interesting that unwnd hasn't explained very developed reads on anyone else, which I think is entirely different.

[Dannflor]

I think you're making this read on me up.

That wasn't really the basis of my read on you/greeting either. You've definitely made an effort to interact with almost everyone in the game. unwnd has done a lot with ydrasse/junko/una/myself too.

it's more about who are people explicitly trying to distance with and who looks the most awkward doing that

[Dannflor]

if you're trying to argue that I should be thinking "oh scum wouldn't want to look that awkward distancing with each other"

I mean yeah okay that might be valid

and I don't even feel that strongly about a lucian/unwnd world. I just am considering that it's possible that unwnd, in wanting to create believable distance early, put more effort into creating a very believable and in depth read on you, then he did in explaining his reads on everyone else

[Dannflor]

HURT: vanderscamp[/vote]

[Dannflor]

HURT: vanderscamp

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

Jk jk I mean, this phase is like lottery, You put your numbers in it and pray, not wanting to engage in perma wifom is town indicative for me

This feels very strange, why would lack of thread presence be town indicative?
Like even if "not engaging in wifom" is a valid reason to townread someone, which it probably isn't, surely most scum don't want to do it either just based on general scum slankiness tendencies?

Unless your read on Mena is that they try harder as scum, which from the scum game I've seen from them is absolutely not the case.

Vanderscamp, do you think you would have played differently so far as mafia?

I'd probably try harder to get in a coalition.

Jk jk I mean, this phase is like lottery, You put your numbers in it and pray, not wanting to engage in perma wifom is town indicative for me

This feels very strange, why would lack of thread presence be town indicative?
Like even if "not engaging in wifom" is a valid reason to townread someone, which it probably isn't, surely most scum don't want to do it either just based on general scum slankiness tendencies?

Unless your read on Mena is that they try harder as scum, which from the scum game I've seen from them is absolutely not the case.

this is a contradiction you know?

you are answering your own doubt, you are saying you would try hard to get in a coalition as maf but critic my pov that trying less is town indicative.

HURT: Vanderscamp

Mena and I are different players.

I enjoy being scum, and Mena's performance as scum in the game I played with them was not enthusiastic to say the least.

Vanderscamp, do you think you would have played differently so far as mafia?

I'd probably try harder to get in a coalition.

Jk jk I mean, this phase is like lottery, You put your numbers in it and pray, not wanting to engage in perma wifom is town indicative for me

This feels very strange, why would lack of thread presence be town indicative?
Like even if "not engaging in wifom" is a valid reason to townread someone, which it probably isn't, surely most scum don't want to do it either just based on general scum slankiness tendencies?

Unless your read on Mena is that they try harder as scum, which from the scum game I've seen from them is absolutely not the case.

this is a contradiction you know?

you are answering your own doubt, you are saying you would try hard to get in a coalition as maf but critic my pov that trying less is town indicative.

HURT: Vanderscamp

Mena and I are different players.

I enjoy being scum, and Mena's performance as scum in the game I played with them was not enthusiastic to say the least.

I mean, I love playing scum, town is like meh, unless the lobby is fun and dandy

Does Mena love playing scum?

vanderscamp you rolled scum with Menalque in micro 999 last year, a game in which he top posted and end gamed

so why is this your opinion of menalque's scum game

also, I do not understand why you asked whether menalque loves playing scum when it's clear you have some meta with menalque and also have already formed your own opinion on his alignment preference?

[Dannflor]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=86045

the game for reference

[Dannflor]

yeah Lucian I'll get around to trying to elucidate ydrasse!town when I get home

[Dannflor]

unwnd do you have any like new thoughts on the game

[Dannflor]

I am now wondering if vanderscamp is scum and if that's the case I think Lucian is like way town

115 and then 193 and then 220 is like a not intuitive progression on a scum buddy. and the first and last posts in particular read as scum > town than scum > scum

[Dannflor]

but I really want to win before I go on vacation this weekend

[Dannflor]

unwnd do you have any like new thoughts on the game

Uhh yeah but do you want them in a tangent?

I mean, yeah?

[Dannflor]

You are actually here lol

[Dannflor]

And I feel like if I can get a little more certain on you we can just win

[Dannflor]

I would not call this game centered around you but I’m interested in why you feel that way

[Dannflor]

What are your doubts towards me? My list of priorities is something like follows:

1) Figure out who makes sense as Lucian's partner
2) Have a backup if Lucian is town
3) Try to widen my townpool

Aside from your Lucian game you just feel fairly opaque this game

You have a couple people in your coalition as null reads

I have no idea why you think your town reads are town really and no idea what flavor your null reads are

Idk my heart says your tone has been generally towny but I know that’s a bad reason to town read you. You don’t seem interested in being super collaborative in terms of building a coalition maybe is what’s feeling off?

[Dannflor]

I would not call this game centered around you but I’m interested in why you feel that way

Everyone has some sort of take on me

A lot of them aren't conclusive, which is frustrating tbh

I think for me it feels very hard to have a conclusive take on you with the way you’re playing

[Dannflor]

I mean I think your read on Lucian is good and I’ve generally agreed with it but it feels like not enough data for me

I don’t think you’ve been obnoxious at all

I just feel like you’ve been intentionally holding a lot back and I’m not sure quite why

[Dannflor]

I’m speaking with unwnd on this page

[Dannflor]

yes that makes sense

HEAL: dannflor, junkochan, una, unwnd, ydrasse

[Dannflor]

ya it’s a read I need to reevaluate and I don’t want to do that sitting in a jiffylube I want to do that on my two monitors where I can bring up multiple tabs

[Dannflor]

Am I a viber I’m not trying to be

[Dannflor]

No that’s fine I don’t want it

[Dannflor]

@mod V/LA unt Sunday night

Kinda awkward timing but what can you do, I can check in for last minute heals but I currently feel comfortable enough with my coalition. I think Lucian has been townier lately but I haven’t got there enough to put him in

Ydrasse read basically boiled down to menalque’s entrance and the dynamics between her and me and him. It felt like she had a real thought process about his entrance and town read me for it without making a huge deal about it. I also found her annoyed “just get over it” attitude towards menalque more towny than not

I hope we win today. I’ll keep reading probably but that’s probably the end of any posting for me today barring pressing questions or heal votes

[Dannflor]

I think vanders explanation is plausible but taking a look at his scum game didn’t increase my confidence in him

Idk something has rubbed me the wrong way about his recent posts

[Dannflor]

Previous topics might be better

Who do you feel most strongly about positively or negatively in the coalition that I’m voting Vander

[Dannflor]

HEAL: Dannflor, Junkochan, Una, Vanderscamp, Ydrasse

I am feeling like excluding Junko is a throw and I trust Una

I also think based on his reads unwnd shouldn’t have a problem with this coalition?

[Dannflor]

Join me pls

[Dannflor]

Idk I think Lucian voting for a coalition with unwnd in it when there is another viable option is weird from his POV

[Dannflor]

Don’t you scum read him

[Dannflor]

I guess in my brain you town reading unwnd doesn’t make sense to me

Do you think it’s basically all town pushing you as a scum read then?

[Dannflor]

scum quick hammer

[Dannflor]

about to go on a 3 hour drive, hope I’m coming back to a win

[Dannflor]

I keep wanting these games to be harder