FFVII Mafia: Over

[GhostWriter]

Oogey Boogey

And then

Vote: MBPika

... he knows why (or does he?)

[GhostWriter]

But why is he your top suspect? Specific reasons would be very nice.

[GhostWriter]

I still see no role name.....

I still see scum.

I see confirmation Bias.

I see bad playing of Xtoxm, compared to what I've seen him capable of as town. This is seriously disappointing me, because you continue to shoot yourself in the foot, and if you continue this, your leg shall soon be gone.

Honestly, Xtoxm, how can ANYONE look at you as town, not going on just the massclaim anymore, but on your own "defense" of yourself, or lack thereof. And to suggest "if I die, kill such and such" is completely anti-town thinking. Yes, it is true that you dying and flipping as town can be used as a tell later on, but it cannot, unless under extremely specific circumstances, be used to absolutely damn another player. Those circumstances are NOT in play right now. What's more, I, in no way, believe that you are bad enough to not know that.

Unvote; Vote: Xtoxm

. You have brought us so far out of the random voting stage.

[GhostWriter]

Oh, that's very believable. Yeah, you're going to have to do better than that. If you're going to claim, go all the way.

[GhostWriter]

In a themed game such as this, where the mods have already stated they will stay true to the game, and with this many players, I have no doubt you'll need a specific name claim, and you'll only be able to target one of possibly multiple scum groups (no doubt we have an SK and there could be ab SK-oriented cop). You'll need a better claim than "I'm a daycop, I picked someone and got a guilty, stop lynching me, ignore my earlier claim of a 'willing-to-die' blue, and kill one of the people attacking me".

[GhostWriter]

@MBPika: I really wish you hadn't just said which of them would make sense as a cop.

@Xtoxm: You're still pussyfooting (heh... I love that word...) around actually claiming, which is a bit funny considering what you were advocating earlier. If you are, indeed, a cop, then you should give your name, what kind of people you, as the cop, are looking for (I'm nearly 100% sure that you aren't just going to be able to look at someone and get a blanket result of "oh, they're against the town; oh they're not against the town". There's got to be some one/group you're aiming for in general), and what your result told you.

[GhostWriter]

For the love of god, Xtoxm, stop ignoring my obvious pleas for FLAVOR with your claim. What kind of scum are you supposed to be looking for, what did your result say, what is the flavor of your role?

[GhostWriter]

You do not use a daycop in the beginning of the day.

I used it on him tonight, when I found him scummy.

What did you mean by this?

[GhostWriter]

unvoye Xtoxm

alright i may not have liked you play, and the way you kept avoiding role question from ilord, and your general attitude, but heres the thing:
a)if we keep xtoxm around, and actually lynch armlx, and he turns up NOT a shinra opeative, then xtoxm would be killed right off next day.
b)if we lynch xtoxm now, and he turns up cop as he said, i would hope everyone would lynch armlx, being as xtoxm would have been telling the truth, but we would be left without a cops investigation skills.

Wouldn't this require that we, at some point, kill armlx? So when do we do that? There's only two ways to confirm the claim/report, and that is to either kill Xtoxm, or kill armlx.

Also, I have to

Unvote

, because it's logical, for the moment.

[GhostWriter]

How is my play inconsistent?

If you have any particular problems, feel free to point them out and I shall attempt to explain why i've done what.

You claimed, not only a VT, but a "willing-to-die-for-the-greater-good" VT. Why?

[GhostWriter]

Even more emphasis on the fact it was the guy that got you into a hole in the first place. Isn't that convenient?

This is what I call a variation of a "too little, too late" post. What is the purpose of restating something mentioned multiple times earlier? Just wondering.

[GhostWriter]

You know, we still need more people getting in here. Also,

Vote: Armlx

.

[GhostWriter]

Oh boy, this just got interesting...

[GhostWriter]

Honestly, in a game this size, I can see there being two rolecops (assuming ABR is not fakeclaiming), though the "daycop" part is what's bothering me (never heard of 'em). Either way, we will still have to test the claims, and they still come down to lynching between Xtoxm and armlx. The fact that we could potentially kill a daycop is why my vote remains unchanged. Also, I didn't like this:


[quote="armlx"]EBWODP: Everyone also has to realize that if xtoxm didn't claim day cop here, he was going to be lynched. This way he gets to mise a mislynch out of it if people listen, possibly more if he randomly guess right./quote]

For him to get more mislynches, you'd have to be the one to randomly have been guessed right. On top of that, you'd have to be aligned with Shinra upon death. Anything else, and he dies. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

[GhostWriter]

The point that I am making is that he will not get other mislynches out of this. You said, and I quote without the quote tags here, "this way he gets a mislynch if people listen, and possibly more". He cannot get more mislynches unless he is bussing you, in which case, we would still catch him on his first mistake. The only way for him to even stay alive after your death is if you are not only scum, but specifically Shinra.

[GhostWriter]

Oh, no, no sanity excuse will fly with me. It would be understandable had he done wonderful playing earlier on in the game, however, given his past playing so far in this game, that would not come close to flying.

[GhostWriter]

Welp, just checked in, and armlx's last post makes a WHOLE lot of sense. I only swapped votes due to a report and not wanting to lynch a cop by accident, but if there's another report, on a player we have all watched play pretty damn scummy, I'm willing to end this day here and now, because I believe Xtoxm is at L-1. Anyone else done with this day, then let me know, and it's over.

Unvote

.

[GhostWriter]

And if Xtoxm turns town, with the char he claimed to be, what happens then? Armlx ge lynched day 2?

Also is Xtoxm turns scum, again then what? We really haven't discussed much else.

Yes to the first, and for the second, have you seen the amount of Fos's and Hos's being thrown around on players other than either Xtoxm, armlx, or ABR?

[GhostWriter]

Yes, wolf, the FoS's are enough. Also, MBP, that vote, I hope, did not count. Don't you dare correct it.

[GhostWriter]

If we didn't before, we do now

Vote: Xtoxm

. Now let us be done with this.

[GhostWriter]

If you get modkilled for prodding the mod(s), I will laugh until I urinate within my trousers, sir.

[GhostWriter]

As far as having ABR tell you what his role does, he won't do it. He already said he wouldn't, and why he wouldn't, and I doubt that repeatedly telling him to do so will work. However, I do agree with the idea that if he is NOT Cid, and is indeed just screwing around, then that much should be told. And if there is someone else named Cid, don't hide, there's no need to hide. You're needed now, not later, to possibly catch someone.

[GhostWriter]

Does the recent discussion actually help the town?

We can only really discuss one thing at a time and I don't think that one thing should be set up discussion.

I second this. We don't even have enough information (ie, dead people, who provide us with roles, names, and alignments to look at) to have exceptionally helpful set up discussion.

[GhostWriter]

Yos2, apparently it relates to people wanting to lynch ABR, but not wanting to b/c he claimed a main character.

Basically, its dumb to auto-clear him based on being a main character, but its also dumb to be lynching him for what amounts to a null tell for him.

Which would, essentially, make everything that transpired pointless?

[GhostWriter]

Vote:ABR

Because it's the right thing to do.

But why is it the right thing to do?

[GhostWriter]

1. Is that a suggestion that we should follow LAL on this?
2. So many people are abrasive in games that it can easily be listed as a nulltell.
3. He did not make the case to begin with, others did, even before yesterday ended.

[GhostWriter]

1. Is that a suggestion that we should follow LAL on this?

1. I believe in LAL as a way of life.

Then this creates a problem with your thinking. You see, ABR lynched Xtoxm because he knew Xtoxm was lying to save himself. So do you feel ABR should be lynched for lying to lynch a liars?

@ABR: Bruce Wayne doesn't stir up all this trouble. There's not too much similarity here at all. You're just plain distracting, and even if I believed your Cid claim, I still might vote you for this.

This is a horrible way of thinking. If you believed his claim of CID, of all people, you'd still vote for him? Where does that make sense? Would you do it simply to get a sense of revenge for Xtoxm or something?

[GhostWriter]

You'd vote him because he's distracting, even if you believed he's Cid, a role that's very hard to bend into something anti-town? You wouldn't try, oh, I don't know, hunting for someone who'd actually make a better lynch, as opposed to going for someone you believe to be a role that is likely town, simply because they are distracting?

The way you're think is still not good. Not at all.

[GhostWriter]

Which is never a good way to think. I'd rather keep someone around, even if they are annoying and distracting, if I think they're town. That's a lynch wasted that could be used on someone who doesn't seem town.

[GhostWriter]

My change fell under the "test the cop" way of thinking, as I said when I said that it'd make sense to do so logically. Thus is why I changed again when ABR came forward, because I didn't trust Xtoxm's earlier play, and just needed that push to go back to him.

[GhostWriter]

Let's not forget that kloud's "reasoning" for voting ABR is not that he finds ABR scummy. He voted to waste a day and get rid of ABR so ABR would not be able to confuse us during scumhunting on D3 or D4.

Aye, but he was far from the only one.

[GhostWriter]

Well, when you say it like that, it sounds so... boring...

[GhostWriter]

CarnCarn, Xtoxm was targeted before claiming, for actions that did not sit well with us. He tried pulling the claim as a gambit to save him, while lynching someone he had barely a case on, simply to save himself. I was one of the people who switched the vote, because I saw it as one of them having to be scum, but had there been no claim, he'd have died yesterday anyway. The claim seems to have taken the front line of his actions, but people seem to be forgetting WHY he claimed in the first place.

[GhostWriter]

Why am I not voting? Because, I haven't decided which of you advocates of ABR's lynching I should aim for. You're using him as an easy snowballing target, to gain votes, and momentum. As I believe, like I always do with large games unless told otherwise, there are two groups, I'm sure that at least one, if not both, groups are after his lynch, and are either actively supporting it, or have/plan to sneak onto it, with little to no backing reasoning.

[GhostWriter]

question for Ghostwriter

Why is it that you seemed to know that there might be more than one scum group, and a Sk to boot?

You seemed to know a little more about the game setup than everyone else earlier in day 1 with posts 120 and 154.

I do not know, for certain, anything about the setup. I make guesses. My guesses are based upon: A) What the mod(s) tell us, B) Various qualities that seem to be more or less common amongst large games in general, C) Interactions between players in this game vs. how players (not always the same players, just players in general) acted in another large game setup, whilst portraying a specific role, and D) What I consider to be my own brand of common sense. That last is not intended to be an insult, it's just that everyone has varying degrees of common sense.

The posts which warrant this question are the following:

In a themed game such as this, where the mods have already stated they will stay true to the game, and with this many players, I have no doubt you'll need a specific name claim, and you'll only be able to target one of possibly multiple scum groups (no doubt we have an SK and there could be ab SK-oriented cop). You'll need a better claim than "I'm a daycop, I picked someone and got a guilty, stop lynching me, ignore my earlier claim of a 'willing-to-die' blue, and kill one of the people attacking me".

@MBPika: I really wish you hadn't just said which of them would make sense as a cop.

@Xtoxm: You're still pussyfooting (heh... I love that word...) around actually claiming, which is a bit funny considering what you were advocating earlier. If you are, indeed, a cop, then you should give your name, what kind of people you, as the cop, are looking for (I'm nearly 100% sure that you aren't just going to be able to look at someone and get a blanket result of "oh, they're against the town; oh they're not against the town". There's got to be some one/group you're aiming for in general), and what your result told you.

Why am I not voting? Because, I haven't decided which of you advocates of ABR's lynching I should aim for. You're using him as an easy snowballing target, to gain votes, and momentum. As I believe, like I always do with large games unless told otherwise, there are two groups, I'm sure that at least one, if not both, groups are after his lynch, and are either actively supporting it, or have/plan to sneak onto it, with little to no backing reasoning.

Each time, it can be seen that I'm, quite obviously, basing my setup speculations on my own personal theory of how the majority of large games are run. Adding onto that, I've played a game by one of our mods, and read another of his. They both followed the pattern of not just two scum groups, but an SK, and even a cult. Add even further onto that, and look at the THEME. So much can easily be done with the FF7 universe, that it'd be ridiculous to have anything less than 2 separate forces of opposition for the town.

[GhostWriter]

Alrighty, my vote will be made now. I'd honestly rather have a TM lynch today, as I feel that was seriously a slip. However, the CML case has far more votes, and isn't bad at all. It's a good case, and far better than a No Lynch. As for the ABR case, and why I'm not believing it: I've been taking AP Language, and we've been learning of the rhetoric triangle, during which I was introduced to the term "ethos". That term is the reasoning behind my not getting behind his case. His ethos, no matter what the case against him his, shines too brightly, at least in my eyes, and apparently, in the eyes of others.

Vote: CallMeLiam

[GhostWriter]

I honestly cannot see the sense in saying someone is worth lynching through the thought process of "They could be town, but who cares, let's waste a lynch on them anyway, have them flip town, and then allow our opponents a night to go have fun and kill people".

[GhostWriter]

If ABR can be looked at as town, then why choose him at all, over the other two candidates? Both of which, by the way, happen to be on his wagon.

[GhostWriter]

He did not retract it. Had he retracted it, he would have flat out said that the was not Cid. What he said was that you could either believe he was Cid, or you could choose to not believe he was Cid, but that it did not matter either way.

And the performing of a lie, alongside his meta, in conjunction with his ethos, is a strong enough town case on him for me.

Besides, the other two lynches are better ideas, particularly TM, but CML will most like be today's lynch.

[GhostWriter]

That was not a slip, I just talked about that at the bottom of the last page, in that same post that you semi-quoted.

[GhostWriter]

WTF stop saying retracted. What a moronic person. I did not retract anything. I am Cid.

You are cid? Seriously? Noy just maybe? Like maybe you are maybe you're not?

10-10 motherfucker

Maybe you don't wanna hold your cards so close to your chest seeing as yoru''s on l2 and i'me driunk as fucjk..

You're already voting him, stop making threats that make no sense, and go somber up. Better yet, stay drunk, and make another slip, so that the votes can go to you instead, because I already believe you should be the lynch of the day.

[GhostWriter]

I don't have to explain that part, he has already explained it now.

[GhostWriter]

No, his explanation takes the Doctor for someone smart. Why would he have been protected last night, after it was seen that he was not a cop, like he had claimed to be? I wouldn't have done it, would you? It's not taking you for fools, it's wondering why you haven't used common sense to get the obvious answer.

[GhostWriter]

His play makes no sense as scum, as why would he choose now, and this early in the game, to ruin a long standing meta as strong as that?

[GhostWriter]

I've always found there to be no point in confirming a vote.

[GhostWriter]

He hasn't been hammered, he's at L-1.

[GhostWriter]

Armlx, you moved ABR to L-1, not L-2.

And as for TM's play, I've already said that's the best lynch of today. If enough people will switch to him, I think he should be lynched.

[GhostWriter]

Vote: TonyMontana

. I said this was the vote I wanted done yesterday, because of what I view to be a slip. Your defense doesn't actually help defend you for me.

[GhostWriter]

Oh, come on. It just had to be a person ready to claim Cloud, of all people, who would do things to call a bandwagon to themselves. I actually do not believe you, but I can't risk you actually being Cloud.

Unvote

.

[GhostWriter]

I never said anything about it being purposeful, but that does not change the fact that you've done things that lead to you being seen as scummy. Hell, if you hadn't, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[GhostWriter]

MBL, I've got to say, I'm really like your scumhunting right now. I was a bit skeptical when you pointed to everyone on that wagon being scum, but your cases are actually quite solid. One thing, though. I was also on that wagon today, but I was not mentioned. I would like to know why not.

[GhostWriter]

* If armlx is actually Shinra (maybe a 10% chance at this point)

I do believe it's actually 0%, seeing as how he's dead and revealed as town.

I think this was from the viewpoint of when that event was all happening, back whenever it was said, and not now.

[GhostWriter]

I no longer have any doubt that there are multiple scum teams.

Please tell me you didn't just become aware of that.

[GhostWriter]

How could it have possibly been a possibility? That's ridiculous, and it makes NO sense. It shows you, clearly, that the two groups have DIFFERENT names. It was clear from the start of today. It was suspected, by most of us, from the get go. It has been certain for a while now. I don't even know how you can not see that it was certain. I also don't see why you did what you just did in that last sentence.

[GhostWriter]

EBWOP: that's all in response to post #1264.

[GhostWriter]

There are few things that rival my wordcraft. A fly in the center of a white room, if it were completely paralyzed, maybe.

Okay... wait, what?

[GhostWriter]

I've been sitting on this since the last time I posted, and I think it's a good spot, given the whole "just became sure of two scum groups" crap.

Vote: Zakeri

.

[GhostWriter]

And was it just me, or did the first half come over as scummy?

It wasn't just you. It sounded like admitted coaching to me.

[GhostWriter]

Let me clear up a few things you seem to not get within your posins of what I did.

GhostWriter: "For him to get

more

mislynches, you'd have to be the one to randomly have been guessed right. On top of that, you'd have to be aligned with Shinra upon death. The point that I am making is that he

will not

get

other

mislynches out of this. The only way for him to even stay alive after your death is if you are not only scum, but specifically Shinra."
Note Ghostwriter:
* says "more" mislynches meaning he knows armlx is a mislynch
* says "randomly guessed right" implying he knows xtosm is guessing
* seems to know armlx won't come up Shinra
Note that if armlx does come up Shinra, xtoxm can get more "mislynches". But GhostWriter expresses absolute certainty that xtoxm "will not" get more mislynches.

GW = probable Shinra

That entire post was made from the viewpoint of Armlx, in that if Armlx had been lynched, found out to be town, and thus a mislynch, then we'd know x amount of detail from, which I then went into listing, still from that same viewpoint of "if a happens, then b".

Ghostwriter looks really bad here for his approach towards xtoxm. he knew early that a cop would be looking for one specific scumteam.

Considering we were all (mostly) sure of there easily being able to have 2 scum groups from the way the game is setup, I saw no point to ever doubt that there were anything less. Add onto that my philosophy of most large games having a setup of 2 mafia groups and at least one other night killing role (SK, vig, JOAT, doesn't matter which) but most likely 2 other night killing role, and you have me doing nothing more than spouting what I believe to be common sense. On top of that, since when have mafia groups been told "Hey guys, you'll only have one of multiple cops looking for you!"? If it's ever been done that way, I've never seen it.

[GhostWriter]

And was it just me, or did the first half come over as scummy?

It wasn't just you. It sounded like admitted coaching to me.

Coaching? That doesn't even make sense.

As in, it sounded like Zak was saying that Rice told Zak to do better with keeping active, as not to look scummy, and Zak is doing that now.

[GhostWriter]

Add onto that my philosophy of most large games having a setup of 2 mafia groups

Since when?

Since I played a few large games, on this site, and on others, and discovered it to be a common trait. I then looked at other large games in the past. The majority, themed or not, have that 2 mafia/1-2 alternate night kill rule. Therefore, I've begun using that as my basic ideology of how games are setup when I enter them, unless explicitly told different.

[GhostWriter]

It's the only reason I unvoted, because, as far as I'm concerned, it's one of those players that CAN'T be left out. A mod can have far too much fun creating that role to not go ahead and put it in. Same as Sephiroth.

[GhostWriter]

And you'll get

FoS

's in return. Sounds like a good trade-off to me.

[GhostWriter]

You may still want to, but I'm starting to doubt it. I'd like to hear Nat's answer to Zakeri's last post.

[GhostWriter]

Sorry, just caught up with the claims.

Unvote

.

[GhostWriter]

Yes, but he's done stuff that's scummy for a normal person. He was asked to give a list of suspicious people, and did so providing three words - the names of three people. Generally, you're suppose to explain why you're suspicious of someone, or if you can't, admit that you have nothing on them. He's been generally unhelpful and evasive in his conversations, and your defending him because it's his meta is starting to rub me the wrong way.

While it's True Lowell has provided just as much as Empking has, Empking has been here all game long, which Lowell hasn't. The fact that they've both provided almost the same amount of information should make Empking by default slightly more suspicious than Lowell.

You know, this way of thinking seems oddly familiar... oh wait, now I remember! The whole "normal players play this way, so this player doesn't, is known for not doing so, but let's call it scummy anyway" routine was used against ABR earlier. That worked out well then too, didn't it?

[GhostWriter]

No, it won't be right everytime, but, in this case, this is how Empking plays even as town. The posts very rarely exceed 3 lines. Annoying? Yes, highly. Helpful? Hardly. Scummy? Normally, yes, but for Emp, not right away, if ever. Other factors have to be used for scumminess.