VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Chara]

There is no magic mechanic that enables you to steal someones mana and Varsoon is trying to stay true to the real game.
I have an idea about what happened to A50 but I won't talk about it.

I think everyone can gain mana more or less easily?

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can

guarantee

Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

[Tibor and Lumia]

first off why are/were you SRing Maid Cafe Creature and second was Claire really in HP mash?

Who are you asking here?

You. Were you confused because game mechanics or did you just not notice your name?
~Lumia

[Tibor and Lumia]

Oh my god A50 is in the game as himself
I thought OTM was him
~Lumia

[Creature]

I don't remember ever scumreading Maid Cafe. And what Claire?

The question is confusing.

[OnTheMark]

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

Hi town. How you doing?

I guess that line of questioning is silly and will lead us down a path of ruin.

I'm fantastic, thank you for asking! Trying to get synced up with my other head, and taking a bit of a break from work because I've been focusing on the work shiz all day. ^^ How are you doing?

And yes, it might not lead us down a path of ruin, but I'd rather not go there. Mastin is smart, if she didn't actually claim the whole thing and she's town, then not claiming it is probably a reasonable option. If she's scum, then whatever they claim will be perfectly reasonable, just like their refusal to claim will be at this point. Besides, there are other details about that whole situation that make it a lot more helpful to not push them on it.

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

@Maid Cafe: Noted. Not going to be giving you anything, but, good to know.
-Cerb

I find it odd here, that Cerb's thoughts here directly contradict my thoughts in post 96 among others. However when I asked him for something he disagreed with he said, in post 392 nothing. This is one of the things that makes me worry. Cerb generally doesn't "mind meld" for lack of a better word this early and I was supremely scared.Drixx, while being offline, tends to favor the "case" type of arguments, and lots of data and endpoints. The fact Cerb decided to not really think about it long and then blow off the question seems odd. It's more like a "I don't give a shit to answer this." That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

Cerb has also tried to spend most of pregame and D1 towards a mechanics based play style instead of a reads based one from his opening.

it's the first time i've heard of the theory, pretty null on it, more interested in the reactions to it. i honestly thinks it's kind of silly and we should just lynch productively and naturally to what the gamestate demands, but it's not like i haven't seen wackier theories have some merit.

Interesting. Why did you try to form a wagon on yourself if you think wagons should form naturally?

Seconded.

Also, that whole theory thing is, as someone else said, simply something to keep in mind when town lynches scum D1, not a reason to deliberately try to lynch town.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

-cerb

Now notice that Cerb specifically mentions that he agrees with my point on wagons forming naturally. He says a minor contradiction in which he says games should always be solved from a role POV. That's not always the case. If a role provides evidence, e.g. you KNOW someone did something, that is mod confirmed obviously don't ignore it. Similarly if someone says they did something, then that gets taken into account. However, the point about role POV directly goes counter to this being a Varsoon game. Take for example Steven's Universe. That game was specifically solved through the power of a town block and THEN actions. Not ACTIONS then town block.

I don't really think we should try and solve this game from a role/role usage POV, especially day 1.

~B

You can always try to solve a game from a role usage POV. Not necessarily from the role alone though, so you're half right.

-Cerb

Notice here it's a "disagreement" without teeth behind it. It's like "you're half right" but he doesn't actively discourage or dissuade the parts he finds wrong. In fact, Cerb has been rather quiet in terms of that, just sort of floating. I haven't seen Cerb actually take a stance for something he believes in. Players with far fewer posts have left a stronger imprint on the game. Drixx's being MIA while that annoys me is typical for his personality/work life balance. Lumia gave a reason so I'll back off for now on them, but I want to see some townie content before D1 is up from the slot.

I'm also considering asking everyone to just vote for themselves until a VC happens to see if we can identify who the thief is, but...alignments were rolled after roles were made, so that won't be useful since the decision was made pretty early.

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

-Cerb

Now this is where one contradiction is a potential fuckup, a second is shame on you. Earlier, Cerb agreed with wagons forming naturally. Now Cerb is arguing for the destruction of current wagons in that everyone votes for themselves. Not only does this NOT address the core problem of people missing votes, it hides the voting pattern, and goes strictly against the mechanics post Cerb agreed with me on. He can't both agree and disagree with himself can he? If other players are missing votes (I have not received such a PM) then that would come up in a VC or if A50 is telling the truth the players inbox. The only thing hunting for a vote stealer does is create chaos and distract from hunting scum.

Mainly the buddied feeling hasn't gone away where it actually has with Titus/Kiana which is a nice bonus.

I miss A50 too. I also agree that natural forming wagons are more important than whatever venmar can do, particular this early in the game.

-Cerb

This is kinda the nail I think in the coffin. With Cerb agreeing with me with a lack of mechanics focus (or rather more accurately flip flopping) whatever Venmar is claiming to do Cerb seems to be frightened of or scared of. He wants natural wagons over Venmar's ability and a then to remove those wagons because a vote stealer exists, despite the effect that comes from the player voting anyone receives the same results.

I'm pretty sure Cerb is buddying scum here, and those townreading RR I would love to have opinions from.

Although I lost my dare. Damn it.

[Tibor and Lumia]

I'm part of this hydra too
and am the better head and maid
~M

So you're scum with beeboy?

This post Creature
also Claire = Maki = MariaR. Thought you knew that.
~Lumia

[Reasonably Rational]

I wonder who has a pregame ability to utilize in these 24 hours, and what will happen when it comes about?

Current guess is scum influence on which plane we'll be in each phase.

-Cerb

Hi town. How you doing?

I guess that line of questioning is silly and will lead us down a path of ruin.

I'm fantastic, thank you for asking! Trying to get synced up with my other head, and taking a bit of a break from work because I've been focusing on the work shiz all day. ^^ How are you doing?

And yes, it might not lead us down a path of ruin, but I'd rather not go there. Mastin is smart, if she didn't actually claim the whole thing and she's town, then not claiming it is probably a reasonable option. If she's scum, then whatever they claim will be perfectly reasonable, just like their refusal to claim will be at this point. Besides, there are other details about that whole situation that make it a lot more helpful to not push them on it.

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

@Maid Cafe: Noted. Not going to be giving you anything, but, good to know.
-Cerb

I find it odd here, that Cerb's thoughts here directly contradict my thoughts in post 96 among others. However when I asked him for something he disagreed with he said, in post 392 nothing. This is one of the things that makes me worry. Cerb generally doesn't "mind meld" for lack of a better word this early and I was supremely scared.Drixx, while being offline, tends to favor the "case" type of arguments, and lots of data and endpoints. The fact Cerb decided to not really think about it long and then blow off the question seems odd. It's more like a "I don't give a shit to answer this." That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

Cerb has also tried to spend most of pregame and D1 towards a mechanics based play style instead of a reads based one from his opening.

it's the first time i've heard of the theory, pretty null on it, more interested in the reactions to it. i honestly thinks it's kind of silly and we should just lynch productively and naturally to what the gamestate demands, but it's not like i haven't seen wackier theories have some merit.

Interesting. Why did you try to form a wagon on yourself if you think wagons should form naturally?

Seconded.

Also, that whole theory thing is, as someone else said, simply something to keep in mind when town lynches scum D1, not a reason to deliberately try to lynch town.

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

-cerb

Now notice that Cerb specifically mentions that he agrees with my point on wagons forming naturally. He says a minor contradiction in which he says games should always be solved from a role POV. That's not always the case. If a role provides evidence, e.g. you KNOW someone did something, that is mod confirmed obviously don't ignore it. Similarly if someone says they did something, then that gets taken into account. However, the point about role POV directly goes counter to this being a Varsoon game. Take for example Steven's Universe. That game was specifically solved through the power of a town block and THEN actions. Not ACTIONS then town block.

I don't really think we should try and solve this game from a role/role usage POV, especially day 1.

~B

You can always try to solve a game from a role usage POV. Not necessarily from the role alone though, so you're half right.

-Cerb

Notice here it's a "disagreement" without teeth behind it. It's like "you're half right" but he doesn't actively discourage or dissuade the parts he finds wrong. In fact, Cerb has been rather quiet in terms of that, just sort of floating. I haven't seen Cerb actually take a stance for something he believes in. Players with far fewer posts have left a stronger imprint on the game. Drixx's being MIA while that annoys me is typical for his personality/work life balance. Lumia gave a reason so I'll back off for now on them, but I want to see some townie content before D1 is up from the slot.

I'm also considering asking everyone to just vote for themselves until a VC happens to see if we can identify who the thief is, but...alignments were rolled after roles were made, so that won't be useful since the decision was made pretty early.

Oh, also: A50, when was your vote stolen? Midday, at day start? Were you told anything about the source of the vote steal? Like if it was a card used by someone?

-Cerb

Now this is where one contradiction is a potential fuckup, a second is shame on you. Earlier, Cerb agreed with wagons forming naturally. Now Cerb is arguing for the destruction of current wagons in that everyone votes for themselves. Not only does this NOT address the core problem of people missing votes, it hides the voting pattern, and goes strictly against the mechanics post Cerb agreed with me on. He can't both agree and disagree with himself can he? If other players are missing votes (I have not received such a PM) then that would come up in a VC or if A50 is telling the truth the players inbox. The only thing hunting for a vote stealer does is create chaos and distract from hunting scum.

Mainly the buddied feeling hasn't gone away where it actually has with Titus/Kiana which is a nice bonus.

I miss A50 too. I also agree that natural forming wagons are more important than whatever venmar can do, particular this early in the game.

-Cerb

This is kinda the nail I think in the coffin. With Cerb agreeing with me with a lack of mechanics focus (or rather more accurately flip flopping) whatever Venmar is claiming to do Cerb seems to be frightened of or scared of. He wants natural wagons over Venmar's ability and a then to remove those wagons because a vote stealer exists, despite the effect that comes from the player voting anyone receives the same results.

I'm pretty sure Cerb is buddying scum here, and those townreading RR I would love to have opinions from.

Although I lost my dare. Damn it.

I'll take suggestions from the peanut gallery on whether or not this is actually worth my time to destroy, given how incredibly bad it is.

-Cerb

[OnTheMark]

i got slight scum vibes from shining dreamers push on maid cafe. it seemed like they started from the position "we're pushing maid cafe" rather than either "we are looking at evidence for maid cafe's alignment" or "we think maid cafe is scum, what evidence supports this" but nothing too strong atm
Venmar is a 100% gut read. it could be bias but i think he is at the very least genuine in his opinions, and am leaning town.
Maid Cafe is that i was on their side in the pregame arguments making me think they were town.
OTM is playing misguided town to a T. A lot of wrong pushes but they genuinely believe them and are trying to solve the game.

Where do you think I am right and where do you think I am wrong?

1v1 with maid cafe, early townbloccing. nothing you were right on springs to mind.

Interesting...None of those are actually pushes. Maid Cafe was pushing me for a perceived wording issue far as I can tell. I still legit don't get it.
However I don't see that as a wrong push...You said there was a lot of "wrong pushes" surely you can name one?

[Creature]

I'm part of this hydra too
and am the better head and maid
~M

So you're scum with beeboy?

This post Creature
also Claire = Maki = MariaR. Thought you knew that.
~Lumia

Oh right, beeboy seemed scum at that time.

Though I ended accepting him in the townblock later.

[Chara]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

[Reasonably Rational]

I also don't mean that to be disparaging or anything, it's just...legitimately a really bad case. :-/

-Cerb

[Maid Cafe]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

[Chara]

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

THIS ISN'T A GIF GAME, THIS IS A VARSOON GAME.

is that better? :>

[Tibor and Lumia]

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

i sure hope i can be town with you two for once. :>

i'm happy to be a miller for a second time. it's a part of my ongoing crusade against policy miller lynches!

pedit: hey, beeboy? i think Mark is town. or, to be more accurate, i believe they believe this. they could still be scum who believes this, i suppose.

This is funny given our history
~Lumia

[Maid Cafe]

Not voting RR today or in any early day btw.
GLGL wolves.

~B

pedit: I think my second paragraph explains why I need to claim cause like acting at night and having scum knowing is stricly better then playing like a jester and probably not acting.

[Maid Cafe]

The notion venmar shouldn't claim is the notion you think he should play like a jester and naturally become the 2nd largest wagon.
The notion I shouldn't claim is the notion scum knowing I can act at night is worse then us not acting at night.

~B

[Chara]

as for the rest of your argument. fine. do what you like, you've already claimed, after all. i don't agree.

[Chara]

This is funny given our history
~Lumia

damn you a third time, then.

[Reasonably Rational]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

So this is something I'm torn about. Mathematically, the majority of the game is town, therefore if you simply do everything to enable everyone's abilities, you're helping town more than scum on a per slot basis...but scum power is usually a lot worse for town than town power is for scum, because scum know where to aim...and by being so open about things, you're enhancing that disparity.

In short, idk what the right thing to do is, but if it involves ruining wagons as badly as the Venmar thing does, then it shouldn't be done, unless it's done super deliberately after we've come to a consensus on who the lynch for the day is.

-Cerb

[OnTheMark]

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can guarantee Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

I think generally its more pro-town if we all just openly try and get mana. If there are conflicting ways to generate it then we lose maybe 3 people casting spells. Vs me and Maki trying to play like a jester get voted, cross vote under a specific condition then hope that we can walk it off.

Like being hidden about mana generation I think hurts town, I think the game was made so most of us can generate mana, Varsoon wouldn't design cards people can't realistically use and by hiding how i get mana me and maki just get taken off our cards 9/10 times.
Lot's of people can still hiddenly generate mana and don't need to claim conditions.

Scum knowing I always act tonight is strictly better than me not acting.

~B

LOL Let's assume you're town for a moment. This is a 100% horrible terribad idea. Throw it away.

Any good scum worth their weight in salt WANTS every town acting. Because uninformed players more often than not, do uninformed bad choices. Everyone's role is going to seem powerful. Furthermore since I'm taking Varsoon at his word that roles were made pre rand then scum would almost certainly have something factional to balance or some sort of help. I do agree with what was mentioned can't remember who that the phases are likely scum controlled. I think mana or flavor claiming is in essence suicidal and would be bad. I wouldn't be shocked to see scum have a flavor claim or mana claim mechanic in place either. It's just bad.

Please stop this bee.

[Chara]

also. googled this.



i don't know anything about magic. are these cards fake, or non-tourney legal, or something?

[Maid Cafe]

I mean if you really think me trying to play like a jester so a player with 0 votes places a vote on me, so I can cross vote and then I bs why I opted to cross vote is good play to stay hidden then I think you are as misguided as what you think I am.

~B

[OnTheMark]

Each spell will have a unique 'type' modifier, such as 'sorcery', 'instant', 'creature', etc--these are simply keywords that help differentiate how a spell functions.
The entire functionality of a spell card will be reflected in its text; keywords will be described on the spell card itself rather than in public rules.
Unless noted otherwise, once a spell card has been used, it may not be used again for the rest of the game.

Furthermore, mana doesn't stack per what Varsoon put in the first post.

If we all out how we get mana, scum can like just stop us from getting mana. So let's NOT out how we get mana or our abilities. It will in essence make us all D1 actors and vanillas otherwise. So just no.

[Maid Cafe]

i don't know anything about magic. are these cards fake, or non-tourney legal, or something?

Those are real.

~B

[Chara]

So this is something I'm torn about. Mathematically, the majority of the game is town, therefore if you simply do everything to enable everyone's abilities, you're helping town more than scum on a per slot basis...but scum power is usually a lot worse for town than town power is for scum, because scum know where to aim...and by being so open about things, you're enhancing that disparity.

In short, idk what the right thing to do is, but if it involves ruining wagons as badly as the Venmar thing does, then it shouldn't be done, unless it's done super deliberately after we've come to a consensus on who the lynch for the day is.

Cerb. it also must be remembered that there could be specific scum powers to counter this exact thing.

i also

really

don't want to play a game where we have to spend half the day moving votes around to give everyone mana. why? players won't want to give mana to their scumreads. it takes a long while to rack up votes. people will be arguing about that instead of playing. inevitably, people will be hinting at their roles and claiming why they need mana or don't need mana.