Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

That's some fine looking wifom you've got there. May I have a glass?

[Oxy]

I just couldn't resist. It's so tempting to argue with you ;P

[Scioness Sajj]

If ya'll think I'm doing what I'm doing becuase I'm pushing for mislynch or have other scum motives then you gotta lynch me.

If you don't wanna vote Oxy for the reasons I have mentioned you can consider me pretty useless for the rest of this day phase. If he is actually town then I'm paranoid and omgusing him to the point where all my reads are affected and I need a break from the game.

[Oxy]

That... is the towniest post you have made all game

[Scioness Sajj]

I really need you to stop engaging with me. It’s really hard not to be toxic and resentful towards you and I’m upset enough with myself for going for ‘it’s me or him’ because it’s antitown as hell.

This post is nai and shouldn’t be read much into. I don’t like drama regardless of alignment, it’s in my scum pt if somebody cares to check if it is true or if I’m wifoming/whatever.

Sorry, ofrhz you will have to wait for my answer till tomorrow.

[Oxy]

Okay. I'll respect that.

[Oxy]

fuck. i guess I'm wrong on Sajj, then. I don't see caught scum getting this worked up over getting caught, and only a sociopath would write 477 and 479 as an aTe attempt. I don't think Sajj is a sociopath. Add it to 107 and, well, rip. Sorry, guys.

[Oxy]

I'll be back in a few hours. or tomorrow. I'm not sure.

[ruru]

I appreciate your suggestion, but I'll play my game in the most pro-town way I know how, and engaging you in a long back and forth for a second time is not part of that game.

I like this post

Town!drixx leads to a 'beautiful' townbloc 'breaking to shreds'. The connotation is that this is a bad thing. (ie something beautiful has been destroyed). I don't know why you're framing it this way and I really see a connection between 'town!drixx posting townie things' and 'townbloc getting destroyed'.

I find it somewhat odd that this is being misunderstood multiple times. I thought Oxy was fairly clear. (Whether or not you think that town needs a polarizing leader type)

Like you're saying 'hey, let's put someone at L-1 and give a 24-hour ultimatum for someone to post town content, and if not we'll hammer them.' I don't have a problem saying that if people post non-town content (ie scummy) content, we'll hammer them. I do have a problem hammering someone with a *lack* of content when it isn't necessarily AI and it could just be a real life thing. Do I think it's pro-town if people lurk? No. But I don't think it's *scummy* either. I don't want to enable you to let someone get hammered if I don't really scumread them.

I feel like it is anti-town to post something that a) could plausibly affect the day 1 lynch and b) nobody understands, and then come back to the thread and just post something weird instead of explaining even though everyone is asking for an explanation. This is the kind of thing that wastes time and as mentioned already, wasting time does seem like a viable strategy for scum at the moment. Like it's not

just

lurking (and I've been null-reading Drixx all game).

Like you've given a 24 hour deadline - what if he just doesn't visit the thread during that period and he gets hammered once the time limit is up? Like you're fundamentally making the assumption that he'll actually see it and then choose whether or not to respond and I don't know if that's a valid assumption.

I feel like you're missing something but I'm not sure how to say it

Also, how would you propose to determine the day 1 lynch? Who do you think is scummy?

---

SS: What are your thoughts on Oxy now?

[ruru]

I'll be back in a few hours. or tomorrow. I'm not sure.

Based on this post I assume Drixx's deadline (if it is even still a thing) to be extended until tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

If you (or anybody) really consider dropping a scum read on me for 477 and 479, you shouldn't.

477 is me!town being selfish and antitown at best or me!scum getting myself in risky deal and giving excuse for being useless at worst.
479 is a follow up with me asking you to stop before I get toxic. That's bearly ate.
I feel like both posts are really mild and could be fabricated. Anybody that had read my iso from my first game or the game can say I have done worse ate as scum, which I'm not proud of but there is no denying that I have done it. I feel like there would be nothing sociopahtic about writing this post as scum. Probably it's best to treat those as nai and move on.

Now, this post is a wifom.

[pinturicchio]

@Scioness, before building my own case, I want to help you not to have a bad time with this game. I know it's not easy to understand since you are in the eye of the storm, but Oxy is a pretty easy sortable player, and it can be explained with one single word: overconfidence. Look at his progression: he starts with some townreads, he engages a little with you, but when he really really comes and push his reads is when he gets townread by his own townreads so he, in his mind, becomes the "leader" of his townbloc, because other people is having problems sorting out the rest of players. Best example: ruru voting for Drixx because Oxy asked her to do it. Another example: after I dismiss my case on him and ofrhz, he asks me to vote for someone he is scumreading (don't remember who it was, if eth0s, Drixx or you), because that's how he plays: he gets townread, he lead.

Overconfidence is a townie treat, because scum can't be overconfident in their reads. Why? Well, because scum knows who is town and who is scum, of course. That's not overconfidence in their reads, that's knowing for sure that their reads are good or bad. And simulating to be overconfident is really really hard, or at least keep playing like that during the entire game. The only post where I've seen Oxy not being overconfident is after you AtE posts in this page, and that stills make sense because he has tunneled you so hard that maybe he felt bad for it. And yes, I understand how you feel with the tunnel, it has been horrible, but that's a playstyle you will encounter more than once.

About your case on Oxy: it's great, really. People tend to analyze cases ex post and not ex ante; if Oxy flips town and you get lynched and you too flip town, people would say "wow what a shitty case", but that's unfair, since your case was built with much more less information. But the thing is, for the rest of us who aren't in the eye of the storm... Wait I'll talk for myself not for the rest: for me, Oxy is pretty much confirmed as town, so even if your case is great, I can't see how can we both be reading him so differently. I'm not scumreading you because of this, but because I'm scumreading you and townreading Oxy, I can't see your case as something else than a great attempt to get away of suspicions.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ruru - I see no reason to unvote. I didn't expect it but it doesn't make me feel better about his alignment. Don't really wanna comment further.

pin - I will get back to you tomorrow.

[pinturicchio]

btw scum!me has virtually no reason to go back to oxy now, when people has moved on and are about to lynch lurkers. The only reason for scum!me to push back now would be if you were about to lynch my scum mate but that would mean second scum is in {drixxx, eth0s} but I'd gain towncred from bussing then getting myself into the spotlight for refusing to lynch a lurker.

scum!me would also benefit more from having a scum lean on ruru and me not doing it would me that ruru is scum. but then scum me would have no reason to go back to mislynching oxy isntead of going with a luker lynch.

And I have no problems with your posts in 477 and 479, but this one is terrible. Not only because the self awareness, but because you've been reading the thread, and you know that going back to Oxy RIGHT NOW is the best timing for doing it, since skitter stopped voting Drixx and started to have suspicions on Oxy's motivations. So you building a case on Oxy now is well-timed and a great scum strategy.

[pinturicchio]

pin - I will get back to you tomorrow.

Take your time

[Scioness Sajj]

488 - I have voted Oxy and said I'm scumreading him before you all have went into lynching lurkers. So it was a moment when nobody was actively considering Oxy as scum.

[ruru]

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

skitter30: I know the reasoning here has been explained previously, but I'd also like to know if you personally agree with said reasoning.

[pinturicchio]

Ok, as I said, I would have to reread everything after townreading Oxy because all of my reads were determined by Oxy being scum. Of course, the first player that pinged me was Scioness because of the 1v1. I said in one post that that 1v1 was a TvS and thought that Oxy was the S, but now that I think he's the T, I had to read again that 1v1 (poor me). So here are some posts that back up my scumread on Scioness:

Spoiler: Scioness case

This is my first game I'm actually scumhutning, so I have yet to find scum this wat, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Scioness says she is scumhunting, but she, at this time, has almost only interacted with Oxy, implying that, without even interacting with the rest, she already caught a mafia member.

You're not interested in townreads so nah, I have nothing to share with you.

A mild excuse to not provide with a readlist so she doesn't have to commit to any reads at all.

You don't want to commit to a read on me, so something is stopping you?

... And the contradiction. She engages with Oxy because he doesn't commit to a read, when she hasn't commited to her reads either. I've seen this before: scum reflects their own behavior on town to make them look as scum.

Yup, that's what I needed, thank you (sorry if getting on your nerves).

town lean: ofrhz
no read need more time: ruru, eth0s, Drixx, skitter30
need to figure out if I'm omgusing: oxy

Scumhunting, but one townlean and no scumreads? This is a really early read so I'm giving you a pass on this, but it's really weird and feels that you gave no content at all, so we still don't know your sorts.

Thanks! By the way, someone already talked about Newbie 1851 and I read that game too; you are on my watch list because of that game, you blended in so good! But I'm townleaning you for now, because the 1v1 with Oxy is an SvT and you are the T.

Oh lol, has somebody not read that game?
I like what you are saying there and I don't. I will need you to explain those reads at some point n the future.

I'm having trouble catching up, why the vote on ruru? Help good ol' Pin please

There are some inconsistencies from Ruru I want to figure out.

This is were I said you were T and Oxy was S; your vote on ruru makes sense with your later explanation (you saying it was a pressure vote), but never explained what inconsistencies you needed to figure out.

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

Again, you unvoting ruru makes sense, but you said "some people are scumming it up for me", and in reality almost all your interactions kept being an ongoing back and forth with Oxy.

Update on my reads and scumpool since NSG asked:

Ruru - up to a townlean. I think her intentions are geniue. She has 'passed' my pressure vote.
Scumpool of {Oxy, ofrhz}
ofrhz - towny on his own, I don't like his play that much after the scumteam of Oxy/ofrhz has been mentioned, though.
Oxy - since I have made my post with reasoning on my townlean he has been proving me wrong. If one is scum so is the other imo.

Don't really see a reason to wagon inactive slots (drixx & eth0s). Drixx has no reason to lurk and eth0s is inactive in both of his games.

VOTE: oxy

And here's the punchline. You said you would take a back sit and watch how the game goes on, but you vote for Oxy instead. You were asked to give a readlist, and maybe you felt the pressure to place a vote to suit your narrative, but you said a few posts ago that you had to sort your reads again. Also, as I said in my post above, the timing for you placing the vote is perfect: I ceased my case on {Oxy, ofrhz} and you take it back to the game with no further explanation. You never talked about it, you never said anything at all about my case. I would have understood you voting Oxy, but bringing up ofrhz into the equation is opportunistic.

I recommend reading the entire thing, but I know it's really long so here's the conclusion: Scioness has almost only interacted with Oxy in the entire game and seems to be really reactive on her wagon instead of trying to game solve. It seems to me that she thought going on this 1v1 was a good idea, because if Oxy gets lynched and he flips town, she will have a solid alibi to defend herself in case she draw suspicions on the next Day.

VOTE: Scioness

Stay tuned for Drixx' case, on the next episode of DBZ!

[pinturicchio]

488 - I have voted Oxy and said I'm scumreading him before you all have went into lynching lurkers. So it was a moment when nobody was actively considering Oxy as scum.

I considered Oxy scum even before replacing in; I stated that before.

[skitter30]

Again, this is in the context of a hypothetical question from Ruru, the premise of which is that Drixx is scum, and that all four of us, you, me, ofhrz, and ruru, are town. If scum!drixx convinced town!us that he was town, and in the process made us more suspicious of one another, that would be a bad thing. This is not a post saying what I believe the results of a drixx wagon will be in this game. It is an answer to a hypothetical question that presupposes both his alignment and our alignments.

I'm still not sure if I get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that if drixx is scum but convinces people he's town and enters the townbloc, the townbloc will be destroyed cuz scum infiltrated it?

I read that whole thing as you saying drixx was town.

-----------

1. Town reads don't agree = they are wrong. So instead of actually making better case on me he went into buddying you and every now and then just posting how scummy I am without even providing what he is referring to.

He just makes sure you don't forget how scummy I am.

2. This reads to me that he refuses to re-evaluate. I highly doubt he ever wanted to re-evaluate or consider anything I wrote from town!sajj perspective because:

Tbh the bolded I actually understand - if I feel like I find obvscum but I can't get people to agree with me I'll stop pushing it but make sure to mention it at every oppurtunity to make sure that people don't forget so that they'll eventually come around.

I do feel buddied and I don't really like that he's just calling your posts bs without explaining why he thinks that though. It reads as generally shading to me.

I don't remember him trying to convince you or get into a convo why you don't find those things suspicious were he had me as obvscum on me, I don't remember him discussing it with anybody)

Yes I kinda agree with this - once I've said I don't agree he's kinda dropped it and isn't really trying to explain his POV that much to try to convince me otherwise, but is instead just kinda settling for calling you scummy and telling me because I don't agree he won't bother explaining - like maybe I'd agree if he'd explain.

@oxy: Can you just give like a tldr case on sajj? It doesn't have to be like a novel with full-on quotes and everything; you can just give a sentence or two explaining the generally scummy behavior you're seeing from her.

So he is either extremly confident he is right and I see no reason for town!oxy to be so confident especially when he subscribes to the paranoia theory.

Yes, I've said this before; I don't' understand why he's so confident on his reads and why he's so resistant to reconsidering them today.

He keeps skitter in high regard because her reads were good and they also covered with his. What happens when her reads don't cover with hers? They make him pause, not reconsider if he is right. Just stop his case he so strongly believes in. He just has to keep telling skitter how towny and a good player she is and at some point she will start listening to him. In the meantime he can try to lynch a lurker. That's scum trying to presuade another player not town resonating with someone.

Huh. Yeah I can kinda see this happening. He kinda did it last night when I get paranoid of the drixx wagon and his immediate response was to tell me how townie I was and try to talk me into staying on the wagon.

Also I really think he's got pin pocketed.

He can't look for a partner in his town team so yeah. But why in the first place would he look for my partner in bearly active people instead of pushing a lynch on me. He is sure I'm scum, but he backed off as soon as he saw townteam isn't going to follow. He apparently cares more about his townteam comfort than solving and winning the game

Yeah I'm still not really understanding why he's focusing on the drixx/eth0s/nsg group instead of trying to convince his townreads that you're scum. Like I feel like he gave up on pushing you so he's just going for the easy lurker lynch instead.

474 - kinda wifom-y though.

I'll get to the next page in a bit.

[pinturicchio]

Also I really think he's got pin pocketed.

Could you explain? I feel I've given my own reads and content with enough explanation, and pocketing implies that he's scum, right? Because if I follow his lead and he's town, it would be sheeping and not pocketing, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm having trouble with translation

[northsidegal]

scioness almost solely focusing on oxy is something i noticed while catching up (which i got sidetracked on, sorry), but i'm not entirely convinced that it makes her scum. i'm hesitant to speak to meta here because scioness only has one completed game and it's a policy of mine that if you just played against someone and you think you know their scumgame, you don't actually know their scumgame. that being said, she was a lot more "agreeable" in all of her interactions last game as compared to here.

i guess the conclusion i would come to would be that if you're going to call scioness scum, the tunnelling probably isn't a good reason.

[pinturicchio]

scioness almost solely focusing on oxy is something i noticed while catching up (which i got sidetracked on, sorry), but i'm not entirely convinced that it makes her scum. i'm hesitant to speak to meta here because scioness only has one completed game and it's a policy of mine that if you just played against someone and you think you know their scumgame, you don't actually know their scumgame. that being said, she was a lot more "agreeable" in all of her interactions last game as compared to here.

i guess the conclusion i would come to would be that if you're going to call scioness scum, the tunnelling probably isn't a good reason.

I gave more reasons, but when almost all her content is about the tunneling, it's difficult to not address it as the most important part of the read. As I said, feels like building a mislynch and a good alibi to not draw suspicion on her because of it.

[pinturicchio]

how are you feeling about eth0s analyzing the first of 18 pages?

Sorry I forgot to reply this! I'm still townleaning eth0s, as I feel his content changed after he said he got a load of work to do and he got sick; look at his first posts and the posts after he said he was not playing good. Give eth0s time, his lack of posts doesn't mean lack of content.

[ruru]

how are you feeling about eth0s analyzing the first of 18 pages?

Sorry I forgot to reply this! I'm still townleaning eth0s, as I feel his content changed after he said he got a load of work to do and he got sick; look at his first posts and the posts after he said he was not playing good. Give eth0s time, his lack of posts doesn't mean lack of content.

Possible connection between these two?