Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

Ruru + Ofrhz: If these two are scum, I must be blind. I've read through both of them twice in the last couple days, and their tones and emotion all ring true for town. As Drixx put it so well earlier (when making the opposite point, mind you), they hit all the right notes.

Eth0s: His catchup was townie. More interactions between him and others would make this slot easier to lock down, but I get that he's busy. I'm saying that his catchup probably wouldn't be the hardest thing to fake, and that I would like to see more from him, but that I wouldn't push for his lynch D1 even if he couldn't post significant content again before end of day.

Pinturrichio: I'm having trouble with this slot. My gut says to town read him, but I haven't found anything in his iso that scum couldn't reasonably be asked to fake. I'm further hesitant to town read Pin because I simply have too many townreads.

Skitter30: I've put more thought into this slot than any other over the last two days. On the one hand, I share Ruru's concerns. On the other hand, I really liked parts of our conversation the other day - specifically how she didn't make up a story for why she misread the same thing 4 times in a row. Coming from town, it's the frank honesty we would hope to get from town. Coming from scum, I think it would feel really ballsy to not have some reason why it seemed unclear to her. Back to the first hand, I don't like how resistant she seems to be to reading the drixx wagon as anything but scummy. I might be too close to this interaction (as both purveyor of the "scummy" act and person engaging her on the subject.) to judge this. Scum!Skitter is possible.

Drixx: Scum lean. Mix equal parts PoE, omgus, lack of content, and his tendency to ignore questions asked of him. Entirely possible that I am not reading him charitably because I don't like the 'holier-than-thou' attitude that I read into his posts.

NSG: Personally, I would expect you to start engaging with people. Either your town reads or your scum reads. Right now I recollect you beginning a conversation with Sajj, and that's it. Null read

Sajj: town

p-edit: why is mafiascum serving me with scientology ads?

[Oxy]

Pinturicchio: You gave me conf town status because of my original read on skitter30. A lot has happened in this game sense. Has your read on me evolved at all?

[Oxy]

since* derp. Also, sorry for misspelling your name earlier, Pin.

[pinturicchio]

I'm on my way to my house, I'll be there in maybe an hour or two! But no, I still think you're town except for one tiny detail that I don't want to talk about for now!

[ofrhz]

don't unvote - no one in this game is stupid enough to lol hammer as town before hearing from drixx.

If someone were to lol hammer, you lynch them D2 with 100% chance they are scum

Here Oxy is chiding Skitter for unvoting me, and expresses certainty that anyone hammering me (and leading to my greenie flip) would be lynched automatically on day two with "100% chance" of being scum.

The underlying assumption here is that I'm town.

Oxy spends quite a few posts trying to walk this assumption back by referring to this as "standard" town play and such, but the damage is done. Especially when compared to the next post I quoted.

I don’t think this is true. Scum can hammer scum. Especially if they think it’ll deflect suspicion from them.

Moral of the story: You don't

always

lynch a lolhammer, and it's not always a good idea to do so. Out in the various queues, people doing a lolhammer get strung up for it way less often than not ...

which is why it's weird for Oxy to be pushing the idea that a lolhammer on me would result in absolutely lynching said person tomorrow. That's not actually a safe assumption to make in any case.

)

Now do you think Oxy knew this and still pushed to lynch whoever would lolhammer? Or do you think he genuinely believed this was the right thing to do? I think the distinction plays a big factor in surmising who is town or scum. It seems like you’re suggesting a lynch based on play you don’t agree with, but never considered the intention behind this play, i.e. whether Oxy believed this play was or town or not.

This post is all kinds of scuzzy. In Oxy's mind only two things can happen?

1.) I make some kind of grand slam post on day one of a game that I'm clearly not keeping up with (and even said I would be way less active than usual until day 2 because of my job)
2.) I "flail" or "stay inactive"

This combined with the previous is just odious.

I’m going to assume you haven’t caught up at this point, but this has been discussed to death. Oxy was responding to ruru’s question, which asked what would happen assuming Drixx and one of eth0s/northsidegal was the scumteam. That’s why the possibilities outlined in Oxys post are limited.

Do you have reads on anyone else in the game?

[ofrhz]

I definitely think at least one scum is in eth0s/drixx/northsidegal/maybe skitter (yes I realize this is half the players in the game), just because their analysis of “this is a risky/overconfident play, ergo Oxy is scum” seems a bit... shallow? However, it doesn’t strike me as particularly likely that ruru would be teamed with any of them.

@ruru- is your vote just a pressure vote or are you willing to push for a d1 lynch of north? I feel like with less than two days left, it’s unlikely for many new wagons to develop, so pretty soon we need to stop pressure voting and seriously talking about voting to lynch. That’s why your vote seemed odd af. Who are your top lynches for today?

@north- I was basically asking which one of eth0s/Oxy you found scummier, but your vote answered that anyway.

[eth0s]

I'm so sorry guys. I have clearly bitten off more than I can chew. My games are usually so slow and boring and this one is so active with big posts I just can't keep up with all that I have on my plate. I wish you all the best of luck.

/replace out

[eth0s]

I hope to all play with you again sometime, when I actually have the time to put in effort. Which is what every player deserves from their fellow players.

[skitter30]

OK, I'm off of vla, but I'm not going to be quite as active this week cuz my spring break ends tomorrow.

Going through what I missed.

----------

Page 29 from after my last post.

I don't really feel like NSG is scum-hunting. I kinda feel like she comes in a couple of hours after someone mentions that she isn't contributing and makes a post or two, but her posts aren't really game advancing. I don't really feel like she's trying to find scum so much as going through the motions of participating in the game. Like she's just kinda here whenever someone mentions that she hasn't been, but her content feels kinda ... empty. Idk how to explain that better.

I don't really like how she chides people about not-voting but has to be reminded into voting herself. Like she wants to

Drixx, I know you're busy irl but it's kinda bothering me that you're promising content within a specific timeframe and then you don't really deliver. You're starting to remind me of the last game we played together, which isn't exactly a good thing.

724 - I don't think that's a townslip tbh; it's not necessarily something that would have been discussed in scumchat.

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Page 30

@ruru, 727 - It legitimately felt to me like oxy wanted drixx lynched if he hadn't posted - I was still thinking that up until my back and forth with oxy a few days back, and that's why I unvoted cuz the way the wagon formed felt wrong to me.

I was criticizing you about not taking a stance because it felt like you were purposefully avoiding it. It looked like you didn't know how to respond to it, and your reaction kinda exactly matched how I expected a partner to one of {oxy/scioness} to react to a 1v1 that they didn't know how to stave it off. I don't think I was pressuring people to lynch in that pair.

733 - gut scumpings me? It feels kinda forced almost? Idk how to explain it. Like NSG felt like she had to respond to the vote on her and it feels like she's trying to downplay it almost?

@ofrzh, last paragraph of 744 - That's a really interesting divide to have noticed about how people are reading oxy. I think he just comes off as really, really LAMIST, which are throwing some people off - a lot of his posts kinda sound like he's trying to get people to townread him, which makes him feel artificial sometimes. And people who don't have as much experience might not catch that a lot of his posts feel very artificial, and may take them at face value.

If anything I think that newer players are more likely to read 'bad play' as scummy - I think more experienced players might be more adept at distinguishing between anti-town play and scummy play.

746 - kinda bothering me that NSG was encouraging people to be pro-town by forming wagons and voting, but had to be reminded to do so herself.

@ruru, 747 - yeah I wasn't implying that scioness/oxy was necessarily svt so much as I was wondering why drixx wasn't considering that possibility. Also I wasn't misrepping the drixx wagon - I thought oxy was angling to lynch him after 24 hours if he hadn't posted. And I still maintain that wagoning him to L-1 as a reaction test doesn't accomplish anything if *drixx doesn't see it*, as he didn't once it played out. It's kinda hard for him to respond to pressure if he literally doesn't see the pressure.

----------

I'll continue from page 31 tomorrow.

[skitter30]

I think I want to do this for now.

VOTE: NSG

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.13

Oxy [3]:

eth0s, Drixx, northsidegal [L-2]

northsidegal [2]:

ruru, skitter30

Scioness Sajj [1]:

pinturicchio

ruru [1]:

ofrhz

Not Voting [2]:

Scioness Sajj, Oxy

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-05 09:00:00) on

April 5, 2018

.

Drixx has been prodded.

[ruru]

I definitely think at least one scum is in eth0s/drixx/northsidegal/maybe skitter (yes I realize this is half the players in the game), just because their analysis of “this is a risky/overconfident play, ergo Oxy is scum” seems a bit... shallow? However, it doesn’t strike me as particularly likely that ruru would be teamed with any of them.

So, I think maybe some people (especially eth0s) have analyzed the game that way because they are kind of skimming the thread due to time constraints. Like in isolation 504 is scumpost of the game. If I read the whole thread in an hour I would probably think Oxy is scum too.

Some of the people voting him are AFK, so they won't necessarily remove their vote if he is getting lynched. If Oxy is town then this works highly in scum's favor.

skitter isn't voting on him (I'm not sure what this means).

NSG first tried to get others to vote in 716. After that, she jumped on the Oxy wagon herself. Her timing seems opportunistic to me.

@ruru- is your vote just a pressure vote or are you willing to push for a d1 lynch of north?

It depends on her response.

I feel like with less than two days left, it’s unlikely for many new wagons to develop, so pretty soon we need to stop pressure voting and seriously talking about voting to lynch. That’s why your vote seemed odd af. Who are your top lynches for today?

We still have around three days I think.

{ofrhz, Oxy}
{eth0s, SS}
{Drixx, pin}
{NSG, skitter}
{}

Drixx, I know you're busy irl but it's kinda bothering me that you're promising content within a specific timeframe and then you don't really deliver. You're starting to remind me of the last game we played together, which isn't exactly a good thing.

Is this 1797? Do you suspect Drixx for it?

And I still maintain that wagoning him to L-1 as a reaction test doesn't accomplish anything if *drixx doesn't see it*, as he didn't once it played out. It's kinda hard for him to respond to pressure if he literally doesn't see the pressure.

I never really liked this argument because it's of the form "this plan might do nothing, therefore it's bad". I'm also wondering, why didn't you originally put your pressure vote (the L-3 on Drixx) on someone else if you think this way?

I think I want to do this for now.

VOTE: NSG

Do you still think Oxy is scummy?

[Scioness Sajj]

Nono, I meant my idea (and I think Oxy's) of the Drixx wagon required people to bluff.

What actually was your idea? Because you have answered that under a quote of my interpretation and I do't know what one has to do with another?

Drixx thinks he might actually get lynched => Drixx produces some better content for us to evaluate and explains his earlier posts

Alrght, I understand that. You wanted to put pressure on Drixx and you believe Oxy did, too. Who had to be bluffing and what is that bluffing about?
You've forgot to explain how my interpretation of the events connects with your idea of what you were doing at that time.

----
Current VC concerns me a little, I'm still waiting for answers from Pin and his case on Drixx. I see we will also have a replacement, will it affect the day deadline or not?

Ruru's naked vote on Drixx - I wouldn't consider it a townslip at all. Her reason to unvote for the first time in the game was that she wasn't comfortable leaving a vote overnight and there was no wagon on ofrhz iirc. Voting people and putting them at L-1 has been also talked about. I believe she later said she thought that nobody was stupid enough to hammer Drixx as reasoning for her vote. She knew what she was doing she just didn’t find it necessary to announce L-1. As for argument that the other scum could have told her that she should ‘L-1’ that would require: them talking about it in scum pt, being active at the same time, her partner to be active at all in the game. And that’s nothing we can have a proof of.
Since she has voted 20 minutes after she was asked to I believe it was her independent decision to vote the way she did. Be it from scum!ruru or town!ruru.

skitter’s unvote - I don’t understand why people are putting so much attention into it. When voting she has mentioned that she wasn’t up for lynching Drixx. And Oxy’s intention are anything but clear in this game, imo. Add to it that the votes after skitter’s appeared in the span of 20 minutes and went with ‘if you don’t do what we like, we will lynch you’.
I also don’t understand why the idea of drixx + skitter as a scumteam has been dropped so fast. I think it is still possible, unlikely but possible. I think that should be used as an argument against her and not her reaction in itself since that could be either.

NSG - I don’t really like 733 on it’s own. She did seem like she was trying to sort me in that little convo we had but I don’t understand why she was asking particularly about my opinions on her readlist, since I have explained a page ealier why I’m not interested in her for the rest of D1. She is still pretty null for me, I want to see her play the game.

I will vote with explanation later today or early tomorrow. I think that's it.

[Oxy]

I would also like to see more content from NSG. I don't see anywhere better to place my vote right now. I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not advocating for a quick lynch, a lolhammer, someone to post intent to hammer, or NSG to feel even minor agita as a result of these votes. In fact, it might be better for the game if we just remove the voting mechanism entirely.~~~~~~

VOTE: NSG

[Oxy]

that's L-2, btw

[pinturicchio]

Ok, I'll clarify some things:

1. Now that eth0s is asking for a replacement, I'm not townreading him anymore. I was convinced that the way eth0s was playing was not because of lack of commitment or lack of time, but because he could be an investigative PR playing a little scummy so he won't get nightkilled to get results for D2. Now that he's replacing, I don't think this anymore and I'm totally open to the idea that he could be scum. I must say: replacing out is not consistent with the idea of him lurking as scum, but he could perfectly be scum with not much time to play, so for now, eth0s slot is null to me.

2. When I have a scumread, I usually pair them with another player to see some reactions. Example: I scumread Oxy, I pair him with ofrhz to see how both react about that. If Oxy is scum and ofrhz is town, they both will react in a way that will be helpful for D2 if Oxy gets lynched; if Oxy is town and ofrhz is scum, same; if both Oxy and ofrhz are town, another set of reactions; if both are scum, another set of reactions. As an example, when I scumread Oxy, ofrhz kept his townread on Oxy, when I expected him at least start having some doubts on him because of me pairing him with Oxy; that would have been a reaction I would've noticed on D2 if Oxy flipped scum, as a way of separating himself of Oxy. Given that ofrhz didn't do that, I assumed he was town, regardless of Oxy's alignment. Then, I townread Oxy because of other reasons, and now I got two townreads.
I tried to do the same with Scioness and Drixx, this time Scioness being my scumread and Drixx my objective. Problem is, Drixx didn't participate at all because he was AFK, and Scioness focused on defending herself instead of talking about the possibility of her being scum with Drixx, so I couldn't read him better. I must note that some reactions to my scumread on Drixx pinged me (skitter and ruru, specifically), so I'm not entirely disappointed; even if Drixx has been null for me, skitter and ruru's push on him gives me the idea that Drixx is town being pushed by scum. The unvote from skitter pings me a lot on this matter, as if Drixx was lynched and flipped town, she thought she would be scumread on D2 and she panicked.

3. Thanks to the players who answered me about ruru's supposed townslip, I agree that it isn't a townslip and that helps me even more on my reads now, because ruru voting Drixx is something I see as scummy. ruru and skitter would be my both prime suspects if Drixx was indeed town; there should be one scum on that pair. ruru is pushing skitter right now and I don't know what to think about that, because she makes sense, but maybe it's a scum motivated push.

That being said, my reads right now are:
Townread: ofrhz
Townread with a little detail: Oxy
Townlean: Drixx
Null: eth0s
Scumlean: ruru and skitter
Scumread: Scioness

P-edit: lol forgot about NSG and I see ruru is now pushing her... I don't know, haven't seen anything about NSG that pinged me, no read on her at this moment.

[Oxy]

@pin Could you please describe why Ruru voting Drixx is scummy? You can also just link me to the post if you've already talked about it.

[ruru]

Nono, I meant my idea (and I think Oxy's) of the Drixx wagon required people to bluff.

What actually was your idea? Because you have answered that under a quote of my interpretation and I do't know what one has to do with another?

Drixx thinks he might actually get lynched => Drixx produces some better content for us to evaluate and explains his earlier posts

Alrght, I understand that. You wanted to put pressure on Drixx and you believe Oxy did, too. Who had to be bluffing and what is that bluffing about?

The people who are voting would have to be bluffing that they will not unvote.

You've forgot to explain how my interpretation of the events connects with your idea of what you were doing at that time.

???

I also don’t understand why the idea of drixx + skitter as a scumteam has been dropped so fast. I think it is still possible, unlikely but possible. I think that should be used as an argument against her and not her reaction in itself since that could be either.

I think it's still possible too, I just don't think skitter+Drixx is particularly more likely than skitter+X anymore.

That being said, my reads right now are:
Townread: ofrhz
Townread with a little detail: Oxy
Townlean: Drixx
Null: eth0s
Scumlean: ruru and skitter
Scumread: Scioness

Why do you think Drixx is towny?

[pinturicchio]

@ruru: I nullread Drixx, but his wagon feels scum motivated; that would make Drixx town.

@Oxy: I haven't said much about Drixx' wagon until now because of what I mentioned: I was waiting to see some reactions. ruru's vote on Drixx is scummy in a world where Drixx is town; you gave explanations for voting Drixx, and ruru's reasoning was "I was following my townread", and I believe that is pretty convenient. A town is leading a mislynch, I agree with that town, the lynch flips town, the town who lead the mislynch is scumread, etc etc. I already had my suspicions on ruru, her vote on Drixx is one more thing to scumread her. But I can't fully scumread her because her push on skitter is alligned with what I think about skitter, so I'm a little lost about those two.

[Oxy]

@Pin Okay, I understand that scenario, and the scum motivation that you described. Personally, I think that a town motivation for that vote is also reasonable. Has anything else in Ruru's game looked scummy to you, or is your read based primarily on her following me to vote Drixx?

[ruru]

ruru's reasoning was "I was following my townread", and I believe that is pretty convenient.

When did I say this?

[pinturicchio]

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense, since she said she was used to another forum where days were shorter; that's why her unvote on ofrhz ping me as scum retracting on getting too much attention with a wagon no one was following.

This was my first approach about ruru, which is why started scumleaning her. After this happened the Drixx wagon, where I confirmed my read on her, started to scumread her. After Drixx wagon came ruru's push on skitter, so I started doubting of my scumread on her; back to scumlean. I think this is the best way to summarize it without making a wallpost or having to reread the thread again

[pinturicchio]

ruru's reasoning was "I was following my townread", and I believe that is pretty convenient.

When did I say this?

Didn't say you said it, but you could say it after Drixx' flip; I think that you following Oxy was implied by Oxy, can't recall

[ofrhz]

I will vote with explanation later today or early tomorrow. I think that's it.

Why are you so hesitant to drop a vote?

[skitter30]

I definitely think at least one scum is in eth0s/drixx/northsidegal/maybe skitter (yes I realize this is half the players in the game), just because their analysis of “this is a risky/overconfident play, ergo Oxy is scum” seems a bit... shallow? However, it doesn’t strike me as particularly likely that ruru would be teamed with any of them.

That isn't exactly my read on oxy. My read is more: a lot of LAMIST behavior; building a townbloc in a way that feels artificial to me; what appeared to me to be trying to push a lynch on an inactive player; possibly trying to pocket people.

--------------

@ assemble

did you notice that eth0s asked to be replaced?

-------------

So, I think maybe some people (especially eth0s) have analyzed the game that way because they are kind of skimming the thread due to time constraints. Like in isolation 504 is scumpost of the game. If I read the whole thread in an hour I would probably think Oxy is scum too.

OK, why isn't that a scummy post when people have more time to read the game?

skitter isn't voting on him (I'm not sure what this means).

I'm trying to decide if I want to elaborate, probably will, still need to mull it over. It's part of the reason why I'm voting NSG.

Other things from that post:

Yes, I"m referring to 1797. He got caught as scum and active-lurked for the rest of the phase and was on semi-v/la for medical reasons throughout. I spent most of the phase waiting for him to answer stuff and gave up around deadline and we ultimately just hammered him.

(ctrl+f 'v/la' in that game too and I have another rant there about not wanting to vote people who aren't there)

I'm not sure if that game is completely analogous to this one -> there like everyone agreed that he was super obvious scum and in retrospect I think he probably couldn't have said anything to divert the wagon. Here I don't think he's being scumread to the same degree, and he isn't really being scumread so much as being suspected for lack of content. Maybe I'm too charitable a person but I really do think he's just too busy to play right now, and I don't think that's inherently scummy, although it's anti-town.

Also I think that pressuring someone to explain a vote with like over a week left is different from putting them to L-1 and saying if they don't post pro-town stuff within a day they'll get lynched. Yeah, he might not have seen my vote on him for a couple of days, but like, the day wasn't going to be ending soon, so he'd see it whenever he caught up. Like it didn't matter to me if he saw it in 24 hours or 48 hours. If he catches up he'd see if eventually and see that was something taht concerned me.

The 24 hour deadline made me uncomfortable.

I do think oxy is scummy but I don't want to vote there right now.

-----------

skitter’s unvote -

I don’t understand why people are putting so much attention into it. When voting she has mentioned that she wasn’t up for lynching Drixx. And Oxy’s intention are anything but clear in this game, imo. Add to it that the votes after skitter’s appeared in the span of 20 minutes and went with ‘if you don’t do what we like, we will lynch you’.

Yeah this basically.

Also from that post. NSG being around but not playing the game is making her kinda scummy to me. I do feel like she's active lurking cuz she seems to pop in a few hours after people say she isn't really contributing. And like she's active elsewhere on site, it's not like she's just too busy to check the game at all. It feels like she's following along just enough to indicate that she's here but she isn't doing anything to advance the gamestate.

At this point her lack of content is becoming a reason to scumread her for me.

--------------

@pin, can you tell me why you think I'm scummy?