Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

Do you think scum!skitter would unvote drixx (1st wagon) the way she did?

[Scioness Sajj]

And more question to NSG:

Why is Oxy so high on your readlist? Is it because of Mathdino's read?

[northsidegal]

Do you think scum!skitter would unvote drixx (1st wagon) the way she did?

i'd have to go back and read what you're referring to

And more question to NSG:

Why is Oxy so high on your readlist? Is it because of Mathdino's read?

yeah, it's partly because of that, partly because i just reconsidered what i was originally scumreading him for.

[Scioness Sajj]

It starts 395.

[ruru]

Yes, I think that egging on a fight is scummy because it creates a gamestate focusing on two people that makes it easier for other people to get overlooked.

(Like right now NSG/pin aren't really posting. If there's a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness I think it's fairly likely that other players will be subsumed by the argument and kinda forget to pay attention to the two of them.)

Or, like, think about your 1v1 with scioness - it kinda took over the game and made it kinda hard for people to focus on anything else.

My point is that if they don't post, it's more likely to be overlooked, and that a 1v1 creates a gamestate that overly focuses on two players. Like it creates more room for people not to participate, which is exactly what we don't want.

Oh my god you literally scumread me on day 1 for trying to pressure eth0s after many pages of Oxy vs. SS like what are these posts

[skitter30]

I'm kinda confused why half the game finds me scummy but there's only one vote on me.

@oxy: Like, once I flip town, can you give some credence to my reads? Lynching scioness after my townflip is like the last thing you want to do here ffs . And like, I don't claim to have perfect reads, but my reads aren't *that* bad that you should just ignore them once I flip; one of my biggest pet-peeves is when I'm dead and people promptly ignore everything I said while I was alive and I'm *right*.

Part of the reason I'm having a lot of trouble figuring you out is cuz we appear to be living in opposite worlds reads-wise and you like just don't make sense to me.

page 52, motivation to read dropping incredibly fast

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea; it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in. You're promoting things that to me are obviously stupid and like you're clearly a smart dude so it's hard for me to believe that you don't get what I'm saying. And you have bizarre views of the gamestate that are just like ????wtf???? to me, and like you take pride in bullshitting and ugh you just feel really wrong.

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

----

NSG has been bumped up to 'more likely than not town'.

I believe that scum is almost for sure all in {ofrzh, pin, ruru, oxy}.

I kinda hate all of ruru's posting today.

I kinda hate all of oxy's posting from the last couple of pages especially the promoting a 1v1 thing. (not even bringing up everything from day1)

I kinda hate all of ofrzh's posting wrt to explaining his scioness vote.

[skitter30]

Given the drixx townflip can someone explain to me what scum!me was doing during the first drixx wagon?

[skitter30]

Oh my god you literally scumread me on day 1 for trying to pressure eth0s after many pages of Oxy vs. SS like what are these posts

Because I think that deflecting away from an active 1v1 that needs to be resolved is scummy.

I think that deliberately creating a 1v1 is also scummy.

[ruru]

can't beat em, join em. i'm walling.

What makes you think that? I think odds are at least one scum was on the wagon.

Why did you want to lynch me yesterday, and why do you want to lynch me now?

who would that scum on the wagon be and what makes you think one specifically instead of all town or two scum?

who are your townreads off the wagon?

I said at least one. I think all town is unlikely mechanically, and I'm finding skitter and SS increasingly scummy. I think Oxy and ofrhz are towny in that order

I feel like a lot of your content is "whatever I don't care about this game I'm not even reading it" so all I have is the fact that Mathdino townread you. Pin's range seems large so I don't know about that slot either.

Also why did NSG leave her vote on Oxy?

SS's hammer on her nullread stands out to me but that's just one of the things I found weird about her recent play

.

eh, plainly put i was just lurking it out. i think i would've rather lynched skitter over drixx but if i was trusting mathdino's townread there then drixx was up next but when i checked the thread my vote would've been hammer and i didn't want to hammer, if i'm recalling correctly.

So if I'm understanding correctly, you didn't vote on skitter because of Mathdino's read, and you didn't vote on Drixx because you were AFK until he was at L-1 and you didn't want to hammer. What was your reason for not wanting to hammer?

really interested to hear more on the bolded. what do you think scioness should have done instead?

Given her reads at the time and Mathdino saying it was mechanically reasonable in this setup I would've at least been seriously considering no-lynch.

@ruru

My introduction to mafia was IRL mafia in a certain circle of what I think were fairly experienced players. I had never played or seen the game played before, and I was majoring in math, so my playstyle was pretty strange. I played two games with them; in the first I rolled mafia and the second I rolled VT. In both games I claimed mafia with a villainous grin on day 1, because I thought I may as well explore weird options to balance myself (in the poker/game theory sense), because I didn't think I could pull off mafia when I rolled it unless I always acted scummy and I didn't want people to be reading me. (I also got lynched on day 1 in both games and never played mafia again with that group.)

how much forum experience do you have?

This is my first forum game. Most of my ideas about the game come from reading through some games on another forum.

[ruru]

Scumteam confirmed town NSG by killing Dino. Yeah there's a chance of "NSG killed Dino so everyone would know that Dino was town so we would know that he was sincerely townreading NSG and now NSG is conftown bla bla bla"... bullshit)

What makes you sure this isn't the case?

- ruru is the safe vote, as voting skitter could still be risky with the possibility of Scioness being scum, but ruru is most likely the Goon if there's a scum PR
- skitter would be risky, but if she's ruru's partner, she is most likely the scum PR, which would be a better flip

I realize this is what I would say if I were scum with scumPR!skitter but I don't really see the case for lynching the less likely scum here.

I kind of disagree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the part where I'm scum, but I guess it also seems pretty town-motivated to me

[ruru]

I don't understand the setup well enough to say for sure, but if I had the reads you said you had, I would have preferred a no lynch or at least tried to advocate the idea for a bit so others could tell me why I'm wrong.

Why do you make assumptions like that about things you know you don't fully understand? You have made up a whole story about what town me would or wouldn't do when you don't even have an opinion on the issue yourself.

I mean Mathdino, who seems to know some things about mechanics, and mentioned no-lynching, was right there reading the thread at the time (also recommending not to hammer Drixx until deadline) and you could have talked it over with him, right?

If you're scum, doing some weird delayed announcement of your vote even though you already decided it only increases town's disorganization. If you're scum with skitter, it actually makes perfect sense that you wouldn't want to be involved in skitter vs. Drixx until you realized Drixx wouldn't get lynched without your help.

Wow this misreping.
Nothing was delayed. I have announced it earlier so people would know what I had in mind. My case was posted before Mathdino replaced in and wagons started forming.
I think I have also mentioned somewhere that I didn't want to answer to your engage on my case because I believed my case was enough I didn't want to distract people with 1v1 because I knew I would be unavailable and we were too close to the deadline.

How is it a "distraction" if you actually think I'm scum? How is it worse for other people to have extra time to evaluate a case that you already decided to post, even if you're going to be AFK?

How is a vote and a big wall case (which didn't make sense at all, and that you still haven't addressed) on a player who could conceivably get lynched not relevant to the game state?

Not "not" relevant but a lot less relevant than you make it look. You think it is relevant to the gamestate because it was about you. But objectively it was one case (apparently weak one) that nobody really cared about. One post that people disregarded. Again, last minute wagon on you had nothing to do with my case. You are portraying it like it is important to the game but my case being weak is nai and it didn't trigger a lynch.

You are fussing so much over a weak case on you that nobody was interested in and trying to force a connection between it and your wagon but there is no connection. Your own post made people vote you not I.

This is also were I think you are trying to play the victim. It has 'she could have lynched me!' undertones.

I mean, you voted on me with what looked like a serious vote as the deadline was approaching and posted a wall calling me scummy. It's not like I'm misrepresenting the situation.

Do you mind explaining why you're townreading NSG now? I understand sheeping Mathdino but that's not what the second part sounds like

Now? I never scumread her. I had a townlean after the lynch, mostly gut and no visible scum motivation. Math flipping town made me believe more that I'm right. I don't remember the percentage I have used earlier, it's the strongest townread I have anyways.

I don't remember posts where you were townreading her either though (since 762 where she was null) so I'm curious what prompted you to townread her if not Mathdino flipping.

If you have something to say then say it, don't rely on people picking up your 'clues'. Posting things like that you are just creating noise.

I think my meaning was clear. Why are you so upset about it?

You could share your thoughts and move game forward but instead you have decided to go ISO me again to correct your reads instead of updating them.

Is it a problem that I'm isoing you?

[ofrhz]

oh geez, I checked out for one day, and now I'm several pages behind. heads up, I'm going to be busy until end of Thursday at the earliest

[ruru]

Ofrhz + Pin

that pair of end of day votes precludes this pretty strongly.
Ofrhz + Skitter - plausible
Ofrhz + Sajj - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible

Pin + Skitter - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible
Pin + Sajj - This is possible. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if a sajj wagon had started towards end of day

Skitter + Saj - Less likely than the rest I think because of the strong defenses they have given for one another.

so I guess what I'm saying is I want to lynch Skitter today.

If Skitter flips town, I want to lynch Sajj -> Pin/Ofrhz
If Skitter flips scum, I want to lynch Ofrhz -> Pin/Sajj

VOTE: Skitter30

As much as I want to policy lynch skitter right now she hasn't yet done anything that's unambiguously scum-motivated and on the other hand 1220 is really not sitting well with me. Also if skitter flips scum, I still think SS is a lot scummier than ofrhz. So I'll be rereading more SS iso now

[ofrhz]

Okay I can't sleep rn, so I'll just post the one thing I wanted to say:

After reading pin's post 1379, I can kinda see where skitter is coming from with her whole "thinking about scum associations is not helpful right now." Even though pin's thought process is really good in that post, it can't reliably be depended upon by town because it obviously doesn't consider the possibility that he is scum (or NSG for that matter). And because his case is based on unsubstantiated assumptions, it draws conclusions that I don't agree with, even if most of his reasoning makes sense. i.e.
- Given pin's reasoning, I think pushing skitter would be the right thing to do based on "voting for who you think is more scummy on an individual basis." It would actually be less risky from a town perspective imo, because there are fewer assumptions involved.
- Pushing ruru would be relying on association-based reasoning, but

this is actually more risky for town

because of said unsubstantiated assumptions.

(@Pin: It's still a really good case though, and if I get to reliably townreading you and NSG, then I'd go back to reference it.)

Anyway, this was just a very roundabout way of saying I'm going to try and put less emphasis on associations. And with that, I should UNVOTE:

I will get back to all the threads I left hanging........ Soon(TM)

[ofrhz]

@Oxy - why did you stop townreading me?

Throughout this game ruru has advocated a very guarded play style for town. E.g., "We shouldn't let scum know that they are lower on the priority list for pressure because it takes them off the hook until we get to them." and "We shouldn't talk about lynches. We should talk about wagons."

This behavior was sure to draw attention, and Ruru has come under suspicion in this game for this behavior. It's not lamist because it doesn't look townie in this setting.

It's just town!Ruru bringing her own opinions and strategy to this game.

qft

[ruru]

Continued from 1279:

Spoiler:

Also 316 proves that he is able to analyze a game on deeper level. So why his first case on me was so weak? Weak to the point I had to explain to him why most of it is too weak to push a case. He didn't come up with anything stronger, he saw that 'his town reads' weren't buying, he didn't really try to reason with people (I don't remember him trying to convince you or get into a convo why you don't find those things suspicious were he had me as obvscum on me, I don't remember him discussing it with anybody), I think if it was town motivated tunnel he would argue more or actually reconsider if maybe what he thinks is wrong since everybody else disagreed with him.

Actually some of what's being described here sounds familiar...

I don't know if you don't think that I'm right then I can't lynch her alone.

She had a long 1v1 with skitter over that unvote thing. She didn't vote skitter once even though the exchange didn't change her mind. Yet she voted NSG for three different reasons that in the end equal to a reaction test.
That's it, I will not speak of ruru till D2.

p.edit I thought you have read my ISO yeah, following a leader is perfect for newbscum.

(To be fair, SS did try for a bit to explain her case to others. But only for a bit, she ignored my response, and after a few posts addressed to others she made the "not speaking" post. Like if I'm scum and Drixx is null and skitter is town, I would think she would try harder to get others to include me in the lynchpool.)

This all is either extremly bad deathtunnel or an attempt to get two easy mislynches off and has a control over the game.

If this is a town play then I don’t think I have done anything in this game or at all to warrant this kind of paranoia/tunnel. It’s bad town play (for both him and me and everybody else, since he is now looking for my partner 369, so he is putting the game in narrative for everybody) and I don’t need that affecting my reads or making me want to go against my wincon just to prove him wrong. I don’t know how to deal with it beside making the game a 1v1 again.
I have tried to make him understand why his first case was weak, but he just stopped responding for lamist reasons so yeah.

Sorry but my vote is parked on Oxy. I don't want to make it about me, but I need this solved because the tunnel is affecting me. I have made my case and he can make his and you can judge from there. Or it can wait till d2, but I'm pretty sure that if I'm alive it will be the same story.

Okay this is a bit weird because it reads to me like advocating a policy lynch but she said she's against policy lynches multiple times.

522 is a kind of odd timing to unvote because 504 (taken as a whole) was imo Oxy's weirdest post of the game. For me it generated more questions than answers. Like if SS cares about sorting Oxy rather than being townread by Oxy then I would expect a different reaction.

I've reread SS multiple times this game and I'm still not sure I ever made it through 575. It's like almost breaking rule #4. I failed again so if there's something awfully important in it someone please let me know

In post 306, Scioness Sajj wrote:
re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

Again, you unvoting ruru makes sense, but you said "some people are scumming it up for me", and in reality almost all your interactions kept being an ongoing back and forth with Oxy.

Yeah, I have saw some things as potentially scummy. It were things from Oxy talking to you and/or ofrhz I don't remember if it was him talking to me or talking to somebody else. I'm really not sure if it was one of them or both. I have left it vague on purpose, I wanted to see more content from Oxy (and/or ofrhz) and not alert him/them.

Oxy/ofrhz meme again,

still

no real explanation...

I'm not voting for NSG because I think it is too late to make that wagon now, solely on activity reasons. We have four days left and people (me included) will be less present because of holidays. Wagon on somebody to gain information right now will only create chaos. I doubt that even if NSG got here and posted more content any of it would be incriminating enough for me or anybody to feel good about lynching her - she is null for me for lack of information and I think she is good player and if she was scum she wouldn’t scum claim or just slip because of a wagon like that.
Wagoning NSG day 2? sure. Wagoning her now? Unnecessary distraction that may get us into last minute lynch this day phase.

If NSG is town then this is probably town motivated although I didn't agree with it really

Scummy townie in context of Ruru - I believe what makes her look scummy is her experience playing slightly different mafia games before. E.g. in games with shorter days lurking can be a scumtell. I think her focus on lurkers comes from prev experience, not her having scum motivation. Her saying that she would vote me because of not answering questions fits the bill. I think not answering questions can be more of a scum tell in shorter games then it can be here. She goes with those things because that’s how she knows how to play mafia, it just doesn’t translate into this kind of game well.
Things like that stand out and don’t fit in how I understand the game but I don’t think she is doing them because she has scum motivation to play like that. She’s just in the process of learning/adjusting.

I'm kind of curious how this turned into "ruru voted Drixx to mislynch a lurker" because I feel like it's a thoughtful analysis

830 I've already complained about

Summary so far:
* Some more inconsistencies and things that I'm finding suspicious this time around but it could easily be confirmation bias, I don't know
* I feel like the Drixx/Oxy/ofrhz thing really needs to be explained at this point because it's actually super weird. It's too bad Drixx never got to share his notes on day 2, but it seems possible he made those posts for exactly this reason

[ruru]

oh geez, I checked out for one day, and now I'm several pages behind

I know right, let's ask for another extension and all agree to just go V/LA during the extra time

rip my sleep schedule...

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 2.05

Not Voting [4]:

pinturicchio, northsidegal, ruru, ofrhz

ruru [2]:

skitter30, Scioness Sajj

skitter30 [1]:

Oxy

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-21 13:00:00) on

April 21, 2018

.

[Oxy]

522 is a kind of odd timing to unvote because 504 (taken as a whole) was imo Oxy's weirdest post of the game. For me it generated more questions than answers. Like if SS cares about sorting Oxy rather than being townread by Oxy then I would expect a different reaction.

I've reread SS multiple times this game and I'm still not sure I ever made it through 575. It's like almost breaking rule #4. I failed again so if there's something awfully important in it someone please let me know

Bolded: Biiingo! I did expect a different reaction. I had forgotten just how odd that was.

What is rule #4?

I appreciate you ruining your sleep schedule to do this.

Also, for people scum reading ruru, this is a townie post.

[Scioness Sajj]

assemblerotws you have missed my vote on ruru

[skitter30]

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea;

it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in.

@oxy: do you disagree with this? If so, why?

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

And, you know, you ignoring me pointing this out kinda exacerbates the feeling that you're avoiding discussing this topic with me in particular.

As much as I want to policy lynch skitter right now she hasn't yet done anything that's unambiguously scum-motivated and on the other hand 1220 is really not sitting well with me. Also if skitter flips scum, I still think SS is a lot scummier than ofrhz. So I'll be rereading more SS iso now

Wait, why do you want to policy me?

[Oxy]

@skitter30 Yeah, I disagree with it. They don't (and didn't) have to throw walls back and forth for me to get something out of it, and I'm not asking for it to go on for 1000 posts, either. I do actually hope some of the lingering questions get answered.

I am actively avoiding some discussions with you because arguing with you. If you're scum, I'll never convince you about town!ruru. I am interested in what NSG has to say about Ruru because NSG is near the top of my town reads. Also, there is a much better chance NSG can be persuaded to town!ruru since I believe NSG is town, and I don't want to mislynch Ruru. Finally, I'm town reading NSG, and if I want her help sorting other slots the least I can do is answer her questions.

But like... this would be obvious to town!skitter, wouldn't it?

[Oxy]

@Oxy - why did you stop townreading me?

I read both your iso and ruru's iso during the night phase because you were both due for a reread. I did so while actively trying to scum read both of you. I came away town reading ruru, and knocking you down to null. I'm not discounting your engagement, thoughtful questions, or understanding of the game state. All of those things factored into my town read on you, and they still factor into my read.

Similarly to Sajj, you sometimes ask questions or make comments that sound like they should be joined with a scum read on someone. And then they don't.

You're probably town, though. /shrug. I'm not advocating for your lynch today, for sure.

For the very little that it is worth, that night kill seems most beneficial to a scum team of exactly Skitter + Ofrhz.

[Oxy]

except it would def have been more beneficial for nsg+oxy LOL

[pinturicchio]

For the very little that it is worth, that night kill seems most beneficial to a scum team of exactly Skitter + Ofrhz.

Why those two? I thought it would be more convenient for Scioness + Ofrhz