Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Thor665]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10110849

@Hopkirk - y'know, done the first time you asked me.

[Brian Skies]

Ye I thought Quick was town.

[Brian Skies]

Nevermind, you were townreading him.

[beeboy]

Ye I thought Quick was town.

I changed my read on review, I felt like he was really stubborn town.
Around the time that Toranaga told me to reevaluate.

It really felt a lot like the last time I 1v1'd Quick which happened the last time I played with him and I got all the same feelings out of his posts.

[beeboy]

Tbh I think I took really similar issues with his posts last time we played together as well lol.

[Brian Skies]

I’m not moving.

Now, I can see you still thinking that's scummy, but...

1. Has he done nothing else worth voting over since?
2. Why aren't you advocating for him if you believe in the vote strong enough to park on it while the rest of the game is clearly ignoring him as an option now (and, indeed, some are starting to town sort him while you sit there silently)
3. You really have no *stronger* scum read on anyone else for any reason? (<--this is the part making me curl my toes at your play slightly)

Is this toward me?


1: Idk. I’m 10-ish pages behind.
2: I did ask for their lynch. It’s not my style to make elaborate cases. I can’t do that. I see weird shit that pings me and I go vote it.
3: Not really. Brian pinged me earlier but I don’t remember why. I would have to iso.

VOTE: quick

What are you waiting for?
You've ducked explaining your deep reads, and now you don't want to weigh in on some sexy wagon competition?
This is the point you yell at me again for suggesting you're not helping town.

Haven’t ducked anything. You just haven’t read.
Tchill13 is probably town.
I don’t have an opinion on Maria.

I like how he interacts with following Quick (even if I like Quick), Interactions with Thor, and his neutral stance on MariaR.

Tone reads as pretty legitimate throughout.

Is there anything specific about his interactions that you like?

I'm also going to second Shad's inquiry on why you think his neutral stance on Maria is town indicative for you.

I also don't really care for his random 'Brian pinged me but I can't explain where this came from or what gave me this feeling,' since I feel like that's an easy thing to just say and I was being floated out by several people as a viable wagon option.

[beeboy]

Shad how much of the game have you read?

[Hopkirk]

Last interaction we had was me responding to you unless this is an invisible case.

I fail to see who had the last interaction somehow equates to lack of my presenting of my case - clarify?
Also, if you think ducking presentation of a case is scummy - could you describe your thoughts on Srceenplay doing the same/show me where you think he actually answered the question?
I think you get too tunneled on people who question you.

So your two issues with me are that
a.) I tunneled people who question me.
and
b.) I townread people who scumread me (Brian and Nero) after launching interactions with them.

That's inconsistent reasoning from here.

Not quoting that because whether Screen answered your question as you'd like isn't relevant to my read on him.

I townread your entire would vote pool to varying degrees. Are your lists in order?
Why town Pan?

When I read Pan's posts I get a really strong feeling that they are actually trying to solve the game rather then just make shit up and go through motions in a way that really strikes me as genuine?
Maybe I should be focusing more on there actual conclusions and reads but I am not sure I am pretty comfortable with calling them town for now.


This is by no means an ordered read list. I just copied the playerlist and moved them into 3 pools.

Both heads?

Why am I in your to lynch pool?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10110849

@Hopkirk - y'know, done the first time you asked me.

'You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.'
Is not a fully explained case.

[Shad]

Shad how much of the game have you read?

Nothing since I subbed in and I don't really intend to change that any time soon.

[Brian Skies]

@Shad: Not bussing or doing anything against it (in fact, being on a dead wagon while it happens) when it's starting, picking up speed, or peaking seems good to me.

Actually, I noticed you did respond to it, but Maria was softing a PR and even stated she wanted us to wait for a hammer before lynching someone.

Maria's play makes me think she was looking to rely on her claim to get her out of trouble, so I don't agree with your assessment of Srceen's neutral stance here since that could have just been him waiting for the wagon to blow over or for him to bank on Maria's decision to soft lie detector.

[Hopkirk]

'Is there anything specific about his interactions that you like?'

Yes. The bit you crossed out is why I liked it. I'm not sure you can objectively like tone.
Specifically: Thor's attacking felt kind of nitpicky, already covered MariaR, and sticking to his Quick read seems more town than scum.

[Hopkirk]

@Shad: Not bussing or doing anything against it (in fact, being on a dead wagon while it happens) when it's starting, picking up speed, or peaking seems good to me.

Actually, I noticed you did respond to it, but Maria was softing a PR and even stated she wanted us to wait for a hammer before lynching someone.

Maria's play makes me think she was looking to rely on her claim to get her out of trouble, so I don't agree with your assessment of Srceen's neutral stance here since that could have just been him waiting for the wagon to blow over or for him to bank on Maria's decision to soft lie detector.

If this was the case, that would likely mean multiple bussing was already occuring. If the plan was to claim her way out of trouble then it'd be a good time for partners to pick up some town cred with bussing. The issue with that is that I like the wagon composition a lot.

[Brian Skies]

Yes. The bit you crossed out is why I liked it. I'm not sure you can objectively like tone.
Specifically: Thor's attacking felt kind of nitpicky, already covered MariaR, and sticking to his Quick read seems more town than scum.

Why do you feel that Thor's nitpickiness is more likely to come from scum, but not Srceen's?

Also, I'm starting to get the feeling that your stance on Srceen has to do more with Thor than actually you having an objective read on Srceen (Thor did push both of you).

I also don't think Srceen's tone/attitude was warranted in relation to Thor. Why do you?

[Brian Skies]

@Shad: Not bussing or doing anything against it (in fact, being on a dead wagon while it happens) when it's starting, picking up speed, or peaking seems good to me.

Actually, I noticed you did respond to it, but Maria was softing a PR and even stated she wanted us to wait for a hammer before lynching someone.

Maria's play makes me think she was looking to rely on her claim to get her out of trouble, so I don't agree with your assessment of Srceen's neutral stance here since that could have just been him waiting for the wagon to blow over or for him to bank on Maria's decision to soft lie detector.

If this was the case, that would likely mean multiple bussing was already occuring. If the plan was to claim her way out of trouble then it'd be a good time for partners to pick up some town cred with bussing. The issue with that is that I like the wagon composition a lot.

I like the wagon composition as well.

Scum were probably bussing. Maybe they weren't. Idrc.

She also got shot in the face, so...?

I still don't think this is a good reason to townread him for. There are probably a good handful of other players that had a null stance on her. So what? Also, he went through the trouble to continually ask Centipede if they were sure on their read on Maria. So for someone who was taking a nonstance on a scumflip, he was still concerned about it to at least some degree, no?

[Shad]

Ok I read the OP a bit more attentively and Maria was the target of day KP, yes?

[Shad]

She also got shot in the face, so...?

Ok yeah

[Panopticon]

@Shad:

Can you unvote our slot if you're not scumreading us? Quick was a fucking scumbag and left a vote on the biggest wagon WHILE replacing out, which shouldn't even be allowed. Note to self: add a rule to all my games that replacing out also counts as unvoting.

@Hopkirk:

What questions?

Your slot hasn't done that yet, and I've previously explained why I think you guys are scummy.

I wonder how it feels to be literally wrong, and if it bothers you that you've been playing mafia for several years and still don't have a grasp on what makes someone town or not.
Surely, after I eventually die in this game (and I will die), you'll look back and think, "Oh boy, I sure was wrong, maybe I should re-evaluate how I approach scumhunting"?
I mean, probably not. You'll probably just rationalize that I'm playing like shit and not accept any responsibility or improve as a player.

Both heads of this hydra are of the mind that if we get lynched, at least we're freed from the burden of having to win this game for you incompetent dirtbags.

Tbh labeling people in this game incompetent dirtbags doesn't make much sense since most of the people currently on your wagon had been on the Maria wagon when she died and ended up flipping scum, while your slot was hopping from Maria counter wagon to Maria counter wagon

Literally false, as I've always stuck to Maria as long as I was alive and posting and aware of the guilty, but, furthermore, do you really think scum (especially scum in my position) is more likely to prop obvious counterwagons when there's an in-thread 1v1 guilty on a scum slot? Are you fucking daft?

Why do you keep tossing up smokescreens instead of replacing out?
Because either you both hate the game (in which case replace out)
Or you're lying about how much you hate the game.

Which is it?

I don't see expressing my current level of engagement or reaching out for help getting engaged as a smokescreen. Fuck off with that.
I don't hate the game. I dislike that I don't have the proper time to engage with the current D1 pace, but both my free time and the pace of the game won't be issues moving forward.
Furthermore, the mod specifically asked me to sign up.
I don't like replacing out of the game because it places undue stress on the integrity of the game.
Finally, I really do want to play a closed game with my friend Tn, and not many Closed setups go into signups allowing hydras.

We really don't have a lot of time left in the day phase and I'm not excited about being a deadline lynch, but, fuck it.
When we die, every player that was voting for us also dies.

-obserVed

[Panopticon]

VOTE: Hopkirk

I think we have found some actual scum, now.

~tn5421

[Panopticon]

Spoiler: The entire sum of interactions between Panopticon and Hopkirk

Are there any people here I shouldn't townread: Panoptican, Brigand, Brian, Centipede, Creature, Cheeky

@Ausuka: how do you feel about large games?

ok
i see that

stuff after with the “maybe i am maybe i’m not” was weird but i get the villager claim thing

that’s fine i’ll move on
but embrace the scumreads,
there was likely annoying scum pushing on you

Want to hear your thoughts here too.

At this point I'm fully willing to lynch Quick and Toranaga for being spammy as fuck, and Ausuka and Hopkirk for being scum.

All four of these reads are bad reads.

I think Panopticon looks p. bad and no one is talking about them

Get a wagon going on him and I'd back it.
I'd actually kind of like to see you off Brian and onto Hopkirk, personally, but Panopticon looks more interesting than Brian as a wagon to me also, which makes me wonder why you're spinning your wheels there.
I can't even recall the last point anyone really advanced much on him - though I'll admit 10 pages back only takes us to yesterday evening, but still

Refresh your stale read or move?

Why Hop scum? I assume it's serious now.

Atleast Thor can be town for now

Interested in hearing why since I townread you/tort.

Panoptican's read list in 904 looks uncontoversial/able to vote anyone who might be voted soon.
Not paying attention to me alone is sinful and scummy.

VOTE: Pan VOTE:

Nero is clear and so is hopkirk.

What about Beeboy?

VOTE: Pan

I feel at least a bit good about: Toranaga, MariaR, Beeboy, Ausuka, Cheeky, Quick, Brian, Nero, Brigand (a bit), Screen (a bit)

Zone of people I need to interact with: The Worst, Tchill, Panoptican UNVOTE: panoptican, Bins, Spiffeh

Hive of potential scum and villany: Thor665, Gorkington, GreyIce, Centipede

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

Hello? Reasoning please.

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

Because he'd have to admit his reason for voting me is mostly bullshit.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Did you mean to quote something else, because this quote isn't really relevant, at all.

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

You know this game is in a bad state when GreyICE is making sense.

VOTE: Grey

Can we get a Grey wagon going?

1. He refuses to engage with me
   
2. Creature said he can't be TSTBS
   
3. His behavior is Scummy af

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

WotM'd day 1, that's a new low.

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

On the other hand, it's actually better to get it out of the way now. If he's scum, he's marked by his team as lynch bait and they will change how they interact with him, which will give us less information than flipping him today. I also agree with GreyICE that the only good scum is a dead scum.

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

I'm not sure I want to pursue this over tchill today. But it's something I'm willing to look into tomorrow.

~The Observer

This post is Pan scumclaiming.

Panoptican is just scum in response to Centy.

Townpool A: Creature/Beeboy/Cheeky/Quick/Brian/Nero/Torn/Ausuka
Townpool B: Brigand/Screen/Gorkington
POE pool (including neutrals): Thor/Spiffeh/Bins/TheWorst/Maria/GreyICE/Panopticon/Centipede/TChill

If you are in my townpools, please help me shrink my POE pool.

I'll go for GI before Pan if you do.

People pushed a few people including Quick and regretted it because those were bad pushes.
There's a kind of big wagon on Tchill.
We're voting GreyIce then lynching Panoptican.
A powerful algorithm has MariaR as scum.
Lots of people are towny which is good.
Claiming might be punished.
Your slot was very town.

Being reminded of Kidney mafia makes me want to lynch MariaR more. Backed off of two scum d1 due to pr stuff.

MariaR is a decent lynch.
Pan needs to die soon.

Someone give me a reason to TR Bins because I don’t have one.

Lynchpool for me today: Pan/Grey/MariaR/Bins/The worst/Tchill.

Thor/Centipede/Spiffeh aren't townreads, but wouldn't like to lynch there today.

Pan/Grey/MariaR/Bins/The worst/Tchill.

STOP NAMING PEOPLE IM SLOTTING AS LYNCHBAIT TOWN

My perceptions are coloured by people who looked like lynchbait town making up a heck of a lot of the recent scumteams I've seen.

Which ones are lynchbait town there though.

just grey means personality, like he intended it from the start
thinking someone experienced only does x as town is kind of eh. Stave off the day one lynch by rep and wifom and it's not tactically bad.

Pan needs to be

redeemed]/i] with fire.

Why aren't you voting Panoptican? He needs more votes.

I don't believe you didn't open it.

I mean, its obvious as fuck that he DID open it b/c its against site rules to not look at it.

IDK what the current VC is but town prob needs a lynch at this point. Any of Maria/GreyIce/Quick/Bins are good lynches I think.

3 of those are good
I assume TW isn't there because no associations
Why not Pan?

VOTE: Panoptican

Serious vote. We're lynching here today.

Switch back, we're wagoning Pan now.

Pan/Bins/MariaR- to lynch
The wost/Grey- to reread and sort
Thor/Centipede/Spiffeh- to sort post d1

'partners' won't necesarily be scum unless it's fully based on associations.
Pan for example fits, but is also likely scum by their own play.
Bins needs attention sometime.

VOTE: Panoptican

Pan/Bins/

MariaR

The wost/Grey
Thor/

Centipede

/Spiffeh

VOTE: Pan

Losers like Spiffeh and Hopkirk scumread me out of the maria flip, somehow?

Wow. You're seriously saying I only scumread you after MariaR's flip?

You should also really go through yourcase on me Pan, because what you're saying doesn't make any sense, and you haven't laid out any reasons.

where are you @ with the centipede

Town.

Hopkirk, I don't understand why/how you're making a pool with me, Bins, and Maria.
Like
I'm not even aware Bins is in this fucking game
What

-obserVed

dude

but seriously hop
maria and i aren’t scum together

I'm listening for why.

Lets vote Pan and/or Grey.

There's lynchbait and there's lynchbait that flips scum.

Still waiting for Pan to answer the questions I responded to them with.
Or for their lynch. Either way is fine.

Lynch Pan, daykill Grey tomorrow.

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

Can you explain why you townread PAn while I quote stuff

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

Yeah, beacuse 2-3 scum are on one wagon.

Also, Panop is a counter to the Srceen wagon - learn to note when a wagon picks up steam?
Srceen was, functionally, a counter to Tchill methinks - which you agree was iffy, so...?

Three scum is definitely unlikely. Pan+one other is likely as a Pan counterwagon To make up numbers that feel kind of right, 40% you, 50% Grey, 80% Pan for flipping scum.

You forgot to explain why I was scum at any point btw I think? Might have missed a page or few somewhere though.

I don't really remember which way around Pan/Screen was.

I townread your entire would vote pool to varying degrees. Are your lists in order?
Why town Pan?

Last interaction we had was me responding to you unless this is an invisible case.

I fail to see who had the last interaction somehow equates to lack of my presenting of my case - clarify?
Also, if you think ducking presentation of a case is scummy - could you describe your thoughts on Srceenplay doing the same/show me where you think he actually answered the question?
I think you get too tunneled on people who question you.

So your two issues with me are that
a.) I tunneled people who question me.
and
b.) I townread people who scumread me (Brian and Nero) after launching interactions with them.

That's inconsistent reasoning from here.

Not quoting that because whether Screen answered your question as you'd like isn't relevant to my read on him.

I townread your entire would vote pool to varying degrees. Are your lists in order?
Why town Pan?

When I read Pan's posts I get a really strong feeling that they are actually trying to solve the game rather then just make shit up and go through motions in a way that really strikes me as genuine?
Maybe I should be focusing more on there actual conclusions and reads but I am not sure I am pretty comfortable with calling them town for now.


This is by no means an ordered read list. I just copied the playerlist and moved them into 3 pools.

Both heads?

Why am I in your to lynch pool?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10110849

@Hopkirk - y'know, done the first time you asked me.

'You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.'
Is not a fully explained case.

So tell me, Hopkirk, how is it that you scumread me when you refuse to interact with me other than to scumpaint me?

~tn5421

[Panopticon]

2893 is the only question you have directed our way that has been unanswered, and that was because it was a blatantly leading question.

Wow. You're seriously saying I only scumread you after MariaR's flip?

And to that, I answer yes, because we were explicitly in your POE pool until then, by your own admission.

~tn5421

[the worst]

tn5421 can you try that again without 9000 quotes? Or just explain quickly?

[Panopticon]

From post 1791 to 1839 & 2157 you went from having us in your POE pool to being in your lynch pool with no explanation given.

[Panopticon]

tn5421 can you try that again without 9000 quotes? Or just explain quickly?

The summary can be seen outside of the spoilers. He has given no reason whatsoever for progressing his read on us from townlean to strong scumread.

[northsidegal]

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[northsidegal]

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