Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Nero Cain]

if screen flips town will you help me with Grey?

[Brigand Vvulf]

Assuming we dont off me before that, you have my word my dude

[Thor665]

im not continuing to argue my first point because it ultimately comes down to us feeling differing levels of significance in him having switched his read there. you think its meaningless because its barely a transition and i think its meaningful because i dont think townGrey would transition his read at all in that situation.
is there really a valuable discussion to be had here?

You're the one who started it and got angered that I was handwaving it, so to a certain extent when I pointed out that it was barely a shift of his viewpoint, yeah, I kinda expected the conversation to continue.
I would think this would be a fairly subjective change - either he went from one view to a distant view, or he went between two fairly close views.
I've explained why i see them as close - can you explain why you see them as distant?

its kind of silly that youre phrasing it as me ducking it. like, thats really the first thing that comes to mind for you there rather than just "hes not interested in talking about this point anymore"?

Po-tay-to/po-tah-to.

it just isnt lining up with my expectations of his town meta.

What is the expectation and how much strength do you place on your meta awareness of him?

im not overly enthused by the idea of lynching someone just because theyre playing like Smurf?

Okay?
Wasn't arguing that we should.

i mean, the bolded is referring to "where is he claiming that hes not being obstructionist" because i didnt see it.

You'll find multiple occurrences in the conversation I had with him.

and the question about the non-bolded was wondering whether you were finding the obstructionism itself scummy and if so why?

Because it obscures truth and hides his own lack of scumhunting and hypocrisy.

if the two points are meant to be directly linked together exclusively then thats the only answer i needed.[/quote
They are linked.

will try to read the back-and-forth tonight when im not at work.

[Thor665]

if screen flips town will you help me with Grey?

If he flips scum will you hard sheep me for the next two Day phases?

[Nero Cain]

yea

[Mulch]

Votecount 1.56

GreyICE(8)

~ Nero Cain(226), Creature(298), Gorkington(236), Centipede Syndrome(226), Spiffeh(146), Chickadee(410), Hopkirk(204), Tchill13(97)

Srceenplay(6)

~ Thor665(81), Brian Skies(137), CheekyTeeky(158), Bins(110), The Worst(106), Brigand Vvulf(96)

Panopticon(2)

~ Ausuka(91), Srceenplay(72)

Hopkirk(2)

~ GreyICE(156), Panopticon(200)

Tchill13(1)

~ Beeboy(87)

Bins(1)

~ randomidget(190)

Players dead: MariaR

Not Voting (2): Town Gunner(0), Mafia Gunner(0)

With 20 alive it takes 11 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-25 12:53:00)

[Brian Skies]

My bad, for some reason I thought you were posting again and again attacking Hopkirk and making a case on him distracting us all while the Grey wagon builds steam and the Srceen one dies.

I feel like I've made it abundantly clear that I want to lynch srceen.

Also, yes, I'm attacking Hop because I'm questioning his motives. Let's say you're right on both your Grey and srceen reads. Do you have any way of figuring out if Hop is protecting a buddy to survive at least to the night phase while setting him up for a bus down the road? I honestly have no idea how I would be able to make this distinction unless I challenged him on it as it happens, as if I wait until tomorrow to do So, he can just go 'well I was scumreading him yesterday, why not just ask me yesterday?' or some variation thereof.

Like if you seriously think the Grey wagon is a wagon based on nothingness, then why are you not curious about Hop jumping over there despite super awesome scumtell on srceen?

Curious why you think he unvoted considering he was voting her at the time she died.
Maybe you should go back and read his votes again?

For a guy that has had Maria (and I guess Centipede) in his FOS/scum/to lynch pile, he has shockingly little to no conviction on the Maria lynch.

Now I guess this sort of supports your point that it would make more sense for scum to make a bigger deal out of the Maria lynch and soak up as much townread as possible. But how often do scum do this, especially since one of the first things people look for is 'who is the busser on the wagon?'

Furthermore, they way he talked about the Maria lynch mostly just puts responsibility elsewhere (algorithm, townread on it) and gives him room to move on and off as he finds it most convenient for him.

my concern is that she pushed Gork then townread him after the sort of time where scum-MariaR would have invented the fakeclaim

My issue with this is that it's just such a softball read (Not to mention Maria softclaimed in like her fourth post and before she really did anything) and he says it in a way that still leaves him open to going either way on the Maria lynch. There isn't really anything else that makes me believe he has the conviction in that read that his reads throughout the game should indicate.

Now if you still believe that is more likely to come from town, then I'm not sure what to tell you as don't think it's town indicative at all, and it's not like I want to lynch him right now anyway.

[Brian Skies]

Screen isn't a townread anymore Thor.
Phone posting is hard.

Someone should meta me. I have a couple of obvious scumtells.

> aware of meta
> tells us to look for scumtells to prove towniness

....wat

Absence.

@Brian- preferably your thoughts.

?

I don't really like meta, even less so when the person is aware of their own tells.

[Thor665]

Like if you seriously think the Grey wagon is a wagon based on nothingness, then why are you not curious about Hop jumping over there despite super awesome scumtell on srceen?

I think it's interesting.
I don't know how interesting or in what way until I flip at least one of them.

Now I guess this sort of supports your point that it would make more sense for scum to make a bigger deal out of the Maria lynch and soak up as much townread as possible. But how often do scum do this, especially since one of the first things people look for is 'who is the busser on the wagon?'

If people believe that and are taking it into their scum play, the actual logical conclusion is to not bus (something I've been arguing for some time).
That said - the entire point of bussing is to try to vote for someone in a way it looks like you're trying to help lynch them and push it through when, in reality, you're doing spit and just participating in something that's inevitable.
I don't see anything resembling scum strategy in that vote, ergo I find it less likely to be a bus, and therefore question the idea of flipping Hopkirk at this stage.

Furthermore, they way he talked about the Maria lynch mostly just puts responsibility elsewhere (algorithm, townread on it) and gives him room to move on and off as he finds it most convenient for him.

I'll agree that he didn't seem to want to take much credit for the MariaR lynch.
I come to the opposite conclusion you do on what this suggests about his alignment.

Now if you still believe that is more likely to come from town, then I'm not sure what to tell you as don't think it's town indicative at all, and it's not like I want to lynch him right now anyway.

I do still think it's more likely to be town indicative than scum indicative - I think his scumminess is indicated in other ways entirely, and I don't see any of those as making him worthy of lynch today - which you appear to agree with at least on the final conclusion. That brings us all the way back around to the initial reason for the dust up - me suggesting that you should spend more time/energy/posts on getting Srceen lynched.
I still hold that stance.

[Brian Skies]

That brings us all the way back around to the initial reason for the dust up - me suggesting that you should spend more time/energy/posts on getting Srceen lynched.

[Srceenplay]

I don’t want to die.
VOTE: grey

[Panopticon]

I don’t want to die.
VOTE: grey

Disgusting.
VOTE: Srceenplay

I know you can play far better than that if you wanted to. (Completely Unoriginal comes to mind)

~tn5421

[Centipede Syndrome]

unvote

[Mulch]

Votecount 1.57

GreyICE(8)

~ Nero Cain(226), Creature(298), Gorkington(236), Spiffeh(146), Chickadee(410), Hopkirk(204), Tchill13(97), Srceenplay(73)

Srceenplay(7)

~ Thor665(82), Brian Skies(140), CheekyTeeky(158), Bins(110), The Worst(106), Brigand Vvulf(96), Panopticon(201)

Tchill13(1)

~ Beeboy(87)

Panopticon(1)

~ Ausuka(91)

Hopkirk(1)

~ GreyICE(156)

Bins(1)

~ randomidget(190)

Players dead: MariaR

Not Voting (3): Town Gunner(0), Mafia Gunner(0), Centipede Syndrome(227)

With 20 alive it takes 11 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-25 12:53:00)

[Bins]

hey random wanna move your vote

[Centipede Syndrome]

[Panopticon]

[the worst]

best post onsite

[CheekyTeeky]

I don’t want to die.
VOTE: grey

Disgusting.
VOTE: Srceenplay

I know you can play far better than that if you wanted to. (Completely Unoriginal comes to mind)

~tn5421

What if I was wrong D:

Guys not on the main wagons, can you please move your votes somewhere useful we got 16 hours.

[the worst]

I don’t want to die.
VOTE: grey

Disgusting.
VOTE: Srceenplay

I know you can play far better than that if you wanted to. (Completely Unoriginal comes to mind)

~tn5421

This feels like such a bad reason to SR srceen here....??

[Gorkington]

ill deadline vote srceen i guess!
i hope grey is scum so i can get to be vindictive!

[Ellibereth]

im going to procrastinate until you guys get very nervous about how much im procrastinating

is it even procrastinating since I'm doing work instead of this

[Centipede Syndrome]

im going to procrastinate until you guys get very nervous about how much im procrastinating

is it even procrastinating since I'm doing work instead of this

[Chickadee]

I will deadline lynch whoever we need to between screen and grey.

[Gorkington]

You're the one who started it and got angered that I was handwaving it, so to a certain extent when I pointed out that it was barely a shift of his viewpoint, yeah, I kinda expected the conversation to continue.
I would think this would be a fairly subjective change - either he went from one view to a distant view, or he went between two fairly close views.
I've explained why i see them as close - can you explain why you see them as distant?

didnt say i saw it as distant in that post?
i said that i didnt think grey would change his read at all based on what had happened.
i dont really think either of us are going to change our minds about this so i dont think its productive to try to engage on this?

Po-tay-to/po-tah-to.

ducking has a pretty clear connotation of scumminess where the other doesnt.

What is the expectation and how much strength do you place on your meta awareness of him?

i feel like ive iterated through this so many times already q.q
you keep saying "oh hes not being effective so what?" but that isnt my point. it doesnt look like hes TRYING to be effective and thats the issue im having.
that issue i would rate like a 6/10 level of confidence, but i generally find discrepancies like that really likely to be scumgame vs towngame discrepancies.

Okay?
Wasn't arguing that we should.

im not overly sure what we were talking about then.
because i assumed that we were talking about his ISO being shit, ie: that if hes town or scum, hes playing pretty garbage.

read the interactions a bit.
really dont know why hes ignoring you regardless of what his alignment is, but im not really interested in driving the gamestate at this point so you get my vote at deadline if nobody pushes for a grey lynch. yay