Mini 2011: Partition Mafia (Game Over)

[implosion]

VOTE COUNT 2.5

1	2	3
northsidegal	Eddie Cane	BuJaber
Wisdom	zMuffinMan	havingfitz
		Kokichi Oma
		REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

Group 1

(1): Wisdom

Group 2

(1): BuJaber

Group 3

(0):
Not voting: 6 (Eddie Cane, Kokichi Oma, northsidegal, REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE, zMuffinMan, havingfitz)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
Deadline is in (expired on 2018-05-28 15:00:00).

Prodding REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE.

[Kokichi Oma]

Yeah others should talk

[zMuffinMan]

the aggressive push for a g2 lynch without any swapping. The overly sarcastic comments when people scumread you or a particular post of yours. Your rare use of subjective arguments and opinion and reliance on probability and objectively optimal moves etc. Like I explain earlier, it isn't that these kind of arguments are scummy by themselves, but when someone's ISO is dominated by them it looks sketchy. Why are they not taking a chance with some of their reads? It seemed to me like if you were more trusting of your reads you'd make different arguments but you were content with things that are mechanical and numerical rather than making reasonable conclusions based on your reads.

i wasn't as aggressively pushing the no-swap thing as you are suggesting i was (you're either confusing me with dram or you're forgetting that you've already talked to me about this and i showed you why this wasn't true). i gave two options i wanted; the first was to lynch without swapping and the second was to swap someone first but still lynch G2. the compromise would have allowed wisdom to swap in a scum read and swap out a town read, which i thought was a perfectly alright alternative (even without the power of hindsight). i wasn't as high-strung about the no-swap-whatsoever as dram was (though i did prefer it to swapping)

as far as sarcastic comments go... *shrug* you can always go read some games i played in the past (though the games will be at least 2 years out of date) and see how i treat people who scum read me as either alignment if you want (i would

guess

it's not alignment-indicative for me but i couldn't give you any games off the top of my head where i've reacted as scum with sarcasm or mockery so you'll have to try and dig that up yourself if they exist. i have, however, spent entire day phases at points claiming scum in mockery of people who thought i was scum when i was town. a little sarcasm is a slight improvement on that, all things considered...)

D1 was largely dominated by the swapping that occurred so a lot of time was spent focusing on that, yeah. and yeah, that wasn't a reads-based thing over a logic-based thing because, well, that's just how the chips fell. with the guilty in play, dealing with G2 was my primary concern and trying to get people to understand why dealing with G2 was important (at least IMO) involved explaining the logic behind it... a lot more than i wish i needed to. i think i was still pretty focused on finding scum both in and out of G2 though and i distinctly remember having conversations with other people that involved sorting reads so i'm not sure what your actual issue here is

plus i think it's pretty silly to criticise me for that when you already know that dram, who shared a similar stance on the whole thing, was town

[zMuffinMan]

But then eddie used his move. And now I can't townread it.

i'm honestly surprised that you've played as many games as you have and you've never seen a town player make a rash decision like that (or do something that you think makes no sense from the perspective they're town)

i suppose part of why it doesn't bother me as much is that i'm numb to that sort of thing. even players i think should know much better do stuff like that sometimes. it's antitown, sure... but that's about as much as you can really say about it

mainly though, why it doesn't bother me that much is because it seems like a pretty bad use of his role if he's scum. i suppose this is easier to say from my POV since i don't need to guess my own alignment but it really does seem like a stupid use of the role to me if he happens to be scum

i'm not going to rule out the possibility that he's scum; i just don't think what he did is as big a deal as you seem to think it is

[zMuffinMan]

48-hour prod timers with a 24-hour grace period is pretty stupid in 8-day deadlines

[BuJaber]

I'll concede that there are certain elements of your playstyle that don't sync up with mine and that has influenced my read whether I intended to or not.

That said just because I was wrong about dramon it's not healthy to automatically assume I'm wrong about you but I agree it does provide an example of town having a wildly different perspective from mine.

If I go by early D1 scumreading accuracy I like to think it's very rare for me to get them all wrong so it is possible you are town and RMOJ is scum.

That said I of course find it more plausible that if there is town in g2 right now it'd be you not eddie.

And either way if I do feel more confident in you as a townread it could help me take the risk of lynching outside g2 even if I continue scumreading eddie.

Did eddie ever claim who he thought was likely scum between mme/wis/koki?

Also it's my turn to be surprised that you think eddie's move is as bad as you think it is if he is scum with koki. And from my perspective I had you as his partner. Which makes the move even better because it makes us question whether or not that is the right team. Basically the way I had it town loses unless they lynch g2. Eddie moves koki and STILL town loses unless they lynch g2. It is something no town would expect. A scum PR used his power and it made no difference to the lynch consequences. That is what makes it brilliant. Not to mention the ballsiness of putting all 3 of you in the same group. And you 3 are definitely ballsy enough to do it.

Anyway with more posts from eddie/rmoj/fitz and nsg we should all be able to get better reads.

[zMuffinMan]

eddie implied he was reading wisdom as scum in his post-move post, but it's not entirely clear whether that was just him reacting to wisdom's post or his actual read (he didn't stick around long enough for us to find out)

i say the move was bad if he's scum because it drew unnecessary attention (this is never a good thing)

and

wasted the role (though i suppose it depends on whether or not he's scum and who with to determine whether it was really a waste, but it's better to have the option of using it if necessary than to use it like that, IMO). like, sure, if he's scum with kokichi, it's not so bad if he was worried about G2 being lynched. but i have trouble seeing why they split the groups this way if they were going to use the role like that at the first sign of trouble

i guess if i were scum in his shoes, especially scum with kokichi, i'd be worried about town seeing a move like that and going "yeah, lynching the fuck out of you for that" and then lynching kokichi the next day... you could argue they were hoping to do that move, cause confusion and make people second-guess themselves, but i generally like to apply principles like occam's razor in scenarios like this. in absence of a decent reason to believe it happened, it's simply much better to NOT draw attention like that and risk fucking yourselves over when you're not in a position that requires it (e.g. if one scum had been lynched D1 i could maybe see scum pulling a gambit or something here, but in the position they're in today? i think it's more likely they'd be playing it safe with groups and ESPECIALLY playing it safe with drawing attention to eddie's role if he's scum)

[zMuffinMan]

i suppose you are technically right though. it could have been a ballsy move by eddie-me-kokichi

i don't really have anything to say to that other than "it wasn't"

[BuJaber]

The pressure on eddie came from being VLA until 25th.

From scum!eddie perspective he knows he won't be able to react fast enough if town do jump on the wagon. So when he sees a townie voting for the group that wins the game for town he is forced to use his power at a suboptimal time.

Have you not noticed that wisdom isn't really doing much to influence the vote? He only needs to cast doubt on my alignment and/or support the narrative that I'm wrong and then town doesn't lynch eddie.

Because eddie flipping scum confirms koki scum. But koki flipping scum doesn't confirm that eddie is scum. Because there's a slim chance that eddie is scum with koki and RMOJ/fitz. In which case they want to make sure eddie survives until end game. Which you know... he probably can if 2 scum flip in g3.

As for his read on wisdom yeah that's what I thought... it wasn't clear. But if that is true and he scumread wisdom then moving koki to g3 is suicidal not just anti-town. It means he put a townread in a group he thinks contains only 1 scum (fitz or RMOJ).

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, i understand where you're coming from but eddie being VLA is actually part of why i don't think it came from scum. it makes the whole thing even riskier because he isn't even around to defend his actions after doing it

also, you're looking at what happened (i.e. there was some pressure before he went VLA). what you're not really accounting for is that either this was pre-planned (as in, they were going to do this swap no matter what before he went VLA, which is why i call it a bad move because it just makes no sense to me over arranging the groups differently in the first place) or they just so happened to magically predict that G2 would fall under fire before eddie went VLA

[zMuffinMan]

though i agree the swap doesn't make a whole lot of sense if he thinks wisdom is scum (which is why i say it's unclear whether that was just an on-the-spot reaction to wisdom or not)

[BuJaber]

Well that's assuming he and his team knew he would be VLA.
It's his life I'm not interested in the reason why but if it was urgent his team may not have known and not planned for it at all.

It's whatever. I finally feel that you are understanding my perspective so disagreeing with me now is not because of any shortcoming from me.

[zMuffinMan]

oh, if you're not in any other games with eddie it might not be obvious but... i'd say check out his recent posts for why it should have been obvious

[havingfitz]

RL busy yesterday. Will effort to catch up this morning.

[REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE]

hi

[Wisdom]

great input

[Eddie Cane]

unless i missed a post, its cute in the whole time i was gone nobody realized kokichi is literally confirmed scum

[Wisdom]

because?

[BuJaber]

unless i missed a post, its cute in the whole time i was gone nobody realized kokichi is literally confirmed scum

We know thanks.. if you had put him in group 1 it'd be hammered already.

[Eddie Cane]

unless i missed a post, its cute in the whole time i was gone nobody realized kokichi is literally confirmed scum

We know thanks.. if you had put him in group 1 it'd be hammered already.

shut up chicken shit i did the optimal swap

[Eddie Cane]

because?

he's guiltied by DV's role pm. proves all actions are public. if a Doc happens in thread, so will a Cop.

[Eddie Cane]

The only reason I didn't prodge before going VLA is to see who defended Kokichi and whatnot, if I'm gonna be VLA might as well be productive.

[Eddie Cane]

no, wait a second

if kokichi is the only scum in g3 we lose by lynching g3

eddie scumclaimed

I know later you come around to me!town, but let me still respond to why this is optimal.

Kokichi is confirmed scum. This is beyond a reasonable doubt. I would expect town to want Kokichi lynched today, at least as a likely possibility, and I'm sure scum probably did too.

Could I have self voted and taken the 1 or possibly 2 sacrifices? yes. could muffin be scum? yes, and i think putting Kokichi with me resulted in the end goal of forcing me to use my action OR getting me lynched. Muffin could be scum very well sure, but I don't scumread him and I don't think scum would put a second scum with a player highly likely to get lynched. Regardless, I don't think its optimal to self vote and take down a scum for myself and a potentially town great player.

So the options were swapping Kok into group 1 or group 3. Wisdom could be scum with Kok associatives, and NSG could be scum by their lack of presence and activity, but neither are overly likely to me. We want to hit 2 scum today to get back into a good position from the shitshow ya'll did d1 that ended in 5 dead townies. ROJ and Fitz were scumread by most dead townies iirc, particularly the latter. This game is hard to win, and Fitz scum is very rewarding because he doesn't bus so he spews people town. It was an impulse swap but ime that was the best shot town had after a complete fiasco spam of garbage d1 when I wasn't online that resulted in a shit quicklynch.

[Eddie Cane]

7 mor epages of posts to reply to, but recess is over so bbl

[Wisdom]

eh i dont agree with this
the "doc" was essentially another group manipulation role
the cop isnt, it doesnt have to be inthread