Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Randomnamechange]

Soshin are your reads in order in the sections in 1152?

Roughly.

You seriously think that Angel is still town after that gross Nico push and their completely inexplicable sudden hardtown read on Creature? If Creature flips scum (like I think he probably will), then Angel had better start lolcatting IMO. XD

I'm null on Angel - that reads list was made before I saw Angel's hardtown read on Creature and I hadn't had time to digest it yet. I can tell you that I'm much more sure about Random flipping scum than Angel.

this is exactly what i'm talking about when i talk about you having reads and then justifying them afterwards. aa9 did exactly the same thing you pushed me for to a much larger extent but you don't scumread them because of your predefined stances.

[Reality Check]

well yeah it's good for scum if it goes through

the problem is it's DOA

it's never going through

so there's no point in scum pushing it

They don’t need the lynch to actually go through,

all they really need is enough votes to prevent a Creature lynch from happening

. What part of we need 8 to lynch are you not getting?

that's never going to work unless it causes a no lynch

[Reality Check]

I'd case Shoshin, but it's the kind of case I can't really articulate beyond "look and think about it in these terms"

something like that would help me in general. so if you have time please do.

sure I'll try at least

[Reality Check]

Spoiler:

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: joral

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

Why not?

VOTE: Reality

I don't

really

think Joral is scum

tbh

I bolded some of the language that pinged me. At this point, it made no sense from a town perspective to hesitantly defend Joral - literally none - and language like "really" and "tbh" suggests that Reality don't believe what they're saying themselves. And when questioned about it, Reality completely ignored me... So I'm happy with where my vote is.

this progression is not natural

the worst, what's your read on Reality? any reason I'm wrong about them?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

dem reads

Yeah, they're pretty bad - but why is that town rather than scum?

this shift is not natural after the above

i don't really like 145. but since we are speaking is there anything else that you don't like about rc?

Their reads suck, they lack any sort of internal logic, and their play feels passive. You're probably right that I'm distant but don't take that as a scum-tell - I'm guessing it's because I don't know anyone so I'm relating to people as strangers, whereas most others here seem to have some history together.

this is independently scummy

If Reality's town, there's a certain degree of paranoia underlying Wheme's vote that feels very town. Like, why would scum Wheme alienate town Reality, the one player who reads Wheme as strong town?

this type of logic is what I'm reading in Shoshin's interactions towards us, plus there's this weird feeling that shoshin is already setting up for our townflip despite having no support for it happening

...I can't follow your thought process too well with some of these votes.

What don't you follow? I explained the vote on Reality but it's obvious nobody wants to pressure them so I'm voting my other suspect. What's confusing about the vote on Sajj? She posts lots of meaningless commentary and doesn't commit to anything.

"I'm not scummy, I swear! look! there's another person doing exactly the same thing as me!"

Look at my correct % in recent games. I'm done trying to convince you people. My record speaks for itself.

I don't think scum would boast about how great their reads usually are.

shoshin has never met the mod before

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

sweaty get off your high horse and go find actual scum

If you helped me out, then maybe I wouldn't vote you. But if you're going to obscure your alignment, then I'm going to assume it's because you're scum.

every other post in my ISO is transparent and conspicuously town motivated. if you get a stick up your ass abt one post which is VERY OBVIOUSLY hinting that I'm planning something with obscuring my read then I can only assume you're scum using an insanely stupid tunnel as a smokescreen.

I disagree. I still have no clue why you read Reality as "badtown" rather than "scum," and you've cluttered the game with tons of pointless posts. I liked your vote on Wheme and that was about it. I've seen scum do exactly what you've done in this game multiple times (including the whole "I'm not going to explain my reads yet because I have plans"), so if that's how you're going to play, I'm going to vote you until I have strong reason to believe you're town. I was hoping your explanation on Sajj would help me read you and her better... but I guess you don't want that?

weak

this is the type of trend I've been seeing in a lot of Shoshin's votes; there's a lot of making up reasons to fit a scumread that they decided to have without a whole lot of sound analysis behind it. read: their later worst/realitycheck scumreads, it's FULL of this

WhemeStar - leans town for pushing Creature/Random and because overall he seems to play without any concern for appearances in a way that's more likely to come from town than scum.

Joral - leans town because of his early play but hasn't posted enough to solidify a read.

Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly) - leans town because they haven't done anything to make me think otherwise plus early post seem aimed at sorting alignments.

ArcAngel9 - leans town, because of early negative utility claim, which I think is more likely to be town than scum motivated, and recent posting doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective - it's the sort of crazy that's more likely to come from town than scum.

the three townreads on whemestar/joral/vartsun are all natural because they're correct. the townread on arcangel9 is jagged and more vague than the others despite having more words on it.

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

bad logic followed by a preemptive /out from seeing this through

I skipped a bunch of posts and didn't go through the whole ISO, but this should be enough to at least show what I'm trying to say regarding Shoshin-scum

1. Read trajectories make no sense
2. Her playstyle reads as significantly leaning towards stream of conscious; players with this style that roll scum have a tendency to want to make sure their thoughts can be seen as consistent, which is why there's a lot of weird justifications for her votes and thoughts that are just added on, like it's an afterthought
3. She is trying to look like she has solid stances, yet she also tries to give herself as much room as possible to change them if she needs to.

Now if you cross-reference it with my reads...

It makes a lot of sense for her to be scum with AA9
It makes sense for her to be scum with Creature
I could see her also being scum with TGPKAP
Somewhat possible scum with random (mainly true if a lot of the general reads in this game are correct, that would need to be verified first)
Not quite as likely scum with Renais/GIF

Shoshin + ArcAngel9 + (Creature/randommidget/GIF/TGPKAP)

it makes a lot of sense where I'm standing

[Reality Check]

Nancy Drew 39 is obvtown even without investigative
NicoRobin is obvtown even without investigative
Scioness Sajj is very close to obvtown
the worst is closeish, there's just a couple things that are worrying about how they're playing

Taly needs to post stuff, but probably town
joral needs to be replaced, but probably town
WhemeStar is probably town (he did something that was really town very early on in the game, only not higher right now before he hasn't done a whole lot since then)

TGPKAP is the most likely town of the four
I think I'll be able to have GIF sorted sooner rather than later, so that should be a huge help

so

Shoshin > ArcAngel9 > Creature > randommidget

That's my current read of the scumteam from most confident to least confident.

[Reality Check]

standard notice that this isn't cross-referenced with my hydra partner, etc.

mastina was happy I came around on Shoshin though, so

(she told me she'd get around to this game when she can, she's just busy with other things and real life right now)

[Reality Check]

Although looking back, Shoshin and ArcAngel9 were in her scumlist, so!

I don't imagine it will take a whole lot of cross-referencing other than hashing out Sajj/worst and maybe ironing out blind spots

[Reality Check]

last thing I promise

The way you read stream of consciousness posting is by looking at how they're thinking and comparing it to what they're thinking

if you REALLY analyze Shoshin's posting under that umbrella, it's pretty clearly not consistent

or just take my word for it, I can read this type of thing fairly accurately and recently proved it

[Shoshin]

Reality's case is pretty bad.

[Reality Check]

I can't wait for the rebuttal saying I'm wrong because of what you said instead of how or why

[Randomnamechange]

shoshin 101
scumread someone for not responding to your case
ignore their response to your case
ignore someone else's case on you

[Shoshin]

@Reality

I have no intention of rebutting anything - that's not useful - but I do have some questions for you.

What's unnatural about an RVS vote on the worst, a quasi-RVS vote on joral to help get a wagon going when I saw my vote doing nothing on the worst, and then a subsequent vote based on reactions to the joral wagon? You say the progression doesn't make sense - which part of this progression are you struggling to understand? The shift from voting the worst to joral? Or the shift from voting joral to you? What's my scum agenda with these early shifts?

You said the "shift" in 181, 184, and 188 is unnatural "after the above." What's the "shift"? And what's unnatural about it? I was questioning the worst about you, the person I ended up voting "above" - why would it be unnatural to question the worst about his reads on you after voting you?

What was scummy about 194? Some elaboration on your thought process would be nice.

What do you mean when you say 360 is "weak" and why is that scummy? I'm going to present you with two scenarios:

(1) I suggest that the worst is town as part of some scum agenda to townread the worst, but then I decide that I can further scum objectives even more by scumreading the worst, so I deliberately fabricate a scumread on him and come up with reasons for that scumread after-the-fact, and luckily for me it turns out that precisely at the moment I'm fabricating my scumread I'm also in the middle of asking the worst a question that he's refusing to answer, so I use that immediate circumstance to justify my scumread.

(2) I suggest that the worst is town because I liked his reaction to Wheme's push on joral, so I start asking the worst questions about my scumreads because I want some input from a guy I'm townreading, but instead of answering a simple question the worst says he's not going to tell me why Sajj is town, so I start thinking that maybe the worst is throwing out reads without actually having any underlying thought process and maybe I was too quick to townread him for his reaction to Wheme, so I keep pushing for an answer to my question throughout D1 and D2 and the worst continues to needlessly creating a rift between us instead of quelling my paranoia and answering the question, so I start thinking that the worst didn't have any reason to townread Sajj so early and maybe now he's struggling to come up with a reason after-the-fact.

Why is scenario (1) more likely than scenario (2)? What's the scum agenda in (1)? Why is my reaction to the worst in (2) unlikely? As a matter of trajectory, do you think I decided to scumread the worst before I asked him that question about Sajj? Or are you saying that I asked the worst the question about Sajj, the worst refused to answer my question, and in response to the worst's refusal I decided that I could further some scum agenda by faking a scumread on the worst?

1. Read trajectories make no sense
2. Her playstyle reads as significantly leaning towards stream of conscious; players with this style that roll scum have a tendency to want to make sure their thoughts can be seen as consistent, which is why there's a lot of weird justifications for her votes and thoughts that are just added on, like it's an afterthought

There's no "justifications" for votes, only explanations. I understand that you might find my explanations "weird" and that my trajectories don't make sense to you. If you're town, you obviously don't think about mafia in the same way as me. You think lynching for information is preferable to lynching scum; I don't. But why is my way of playing indicative of scum rather than simply different?

The way you read stream of consciousness posting is by looking at how they're thinking and comparing it to what they're thinking

if you REALLY analyze Shoshin's posting under that umbrella, it's pretty clearly not consistent

Why do you think I'm putting all this effort into making my thoughts consistent if they're "pretty clearly not consistent"? What exactly do you find inconsistent? What posts? How?

3. She is trying to look like she has solid stances, yet she also tries to give herself as much room as possible to change them if she needs to.

Why is this the narrative you're telling? Why can't I be a townie who has some solid thoughts about certain players (e.g. Random, Nancy, Nico), but also doesn't have the same confidence on others, has lots of paranoia about certain players (the worst, lurkers, etc.), and is constantly reevaluating? Why do you think your narrative more likely?

[Shoshin]

shoshin 101
scumread someone for not responding to your case
ignore their response to your case
ignore someone else's case on you

I didn't scumread you for not responding to my case. Nor did I ignore your response to my case. Nor did I ignore Reality's case.

[Randomnamechange]

you did all of those things
you have since responded to RC's case but the other two are still true

[Shoshin]

I didn't scumread random for "not responding to my case" - the suggestion itself is circuitous since the case outlines why I scumread him and his response to the case has nothing to do with that, lol...

[Randomnamechange]

my lack of response to your push against me prior to the case was a major part of your scumread

[Scioness Sajj]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

(i will read and respond to all that important wall stuff in few hours)

[Shoshin]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

It matters because scum tend to throw townreads out without thinking about whether it's merited - usually when they know a player is town or when they're trying to manipulate townies into reading their partner as town - and then when they're questioned about it they struggle to explain the read because it never had any basis in the actual game.

Nancy had reasons to townread you when questioned, so yeah, comparing Nancy to the worst, Nancy's town, the worst is blah.

[Shoshin]

my lack of response to your push against me prior to the case was a major part of your scumread

Um, no.

[Randomnamechange]

k

[WhemeStar]

SHOSIN AND RANDOM IS SCUM VS SCUM

[Randomnamechange]

#hottakes

[Randomnamechange]

srsly what even in the logic for that

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Creature

[the worst]

shoshin 101
scumread someone for not responding to your case
ignore their response to your case
ignore someone else's case on you

finally bus your caught buddy several hundred posts too late