NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[the worst]

simple flowchart for reading chickadee

Q: would chickadee do that as town?
A: maybe
=> Chickadee is a player in this game

[Inferno390]

Omg omg omg omg omg
AAAAAAAANDYYYYYYYYYY ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

I dont know how any of you can question the alignment of the Gus slot. It's a prime example of a specific kind of player that makes really clear slips as scum. Like scum has to convince themselves of their own argument before they can convince the town, and I don't think for a second that Gus thought he could be wrong. That doesn't come from a scum mind.
Which is good cuz it means we can conftown the single most wonderful person ever ♡

Currently not at home, but ill prolly vote flubs once I get back and reread. His most recent posts have been less than stellar.

I think you overestimate some people's abilities

[the worst]

dramferno390 SvS?
my feel is..... no

[Taly]

And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?

Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.

If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.

So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.

Wow
the bs in this post is
Just wow

Instead of saying something is BS can you actually refute it?

What's your thinking on

Brass

at the moment?

I'm just openly complaining.

Like, I go into every game hoping to be able to kill people but also not be mafia. It has not often been successful.

I mean, I go into every game with the illusion that most everyone will actually build cases for what they agree or disagree with but it's not often successful.

What is your read on

MOI

and do you think his suspicion/caution with you is unwarranted?

How do you think we should take the

Chickadee

venge-claim?

[Inferno390]

Okay
Now that I'm at a fricking computer, let the wallposting commence!

First, Andy:

To start, you've got to remember that Andy is in the Gustavo slot, which is super important.

Now, first there's this:

Omg omg omg omg omg
AAAAAAAANDYYYYYYYYYY ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

I dont know how any of you can question the alignment of the Gus slot.

It's a prime example of a specific kind of player that makes really clear slips as scum. Like scum has to convince themselves of their own argument before they can convince the town, and I don't think for a second that Gus thought he could be wrong. That doesn't come from a scum mind.
Which is good cuz it means we can conftown the single most wonderful person ever ♡

Currently not at home, but ill prolly vote flubs once I get back and reread. His most recent posts have been less than stellar.

This is really bad for the Gus slot. Gus was literally sitting there calling anyone who challenged them a liar, and more or less trashing on people in general.
So, what did Gus exactly think he could be wrong about? What arguments was he convincing himself about? What sort of scum has to "convince themselves of an argument?"

This is a really weak read, and by no means does it conftown anybody. Which by itself would be bad, but then there's the fact that dram was scum...

Then, when I pint out what was imo the worst part about Gus, his logical inconsistency, the response is:

I think you overestimate some people's abilities

This makes no sense. There's no discussion of my point here at all. It's basically saying "it doesn't matter because this person is town." Except dram has given a incredibly weak case on why Andy would be town. And he never comes back to the read. IT's just a naked "Andrius is town."

But here's the kicker: Andruis returns the favor. The entirety of D1 they naked ly have townreads on each other. Andrius NEVER explains his read on dram. Dram never goes back and soloidifies anything on Andy. and when confronted with this, ther response is immeadiately "oh, the other is town."

Which would be great. Except 1) Dram is scum, and 2) there is ZERO interaction between the two slots.

They never interact with each other. They never talk about reads or talk about each other's reads. They never follow up on the reads on the other slot. The silence is deafening.

Why would two players who are mutually townreading weach other NEVER have any interaction on reads?

And now we come to D2.

Andrius' play entering into the phase is the weakest so far. It's literally a naked push on Chick becasue she's prod dodging. There's nothing behind it. It's picking on lurkers.
Andy has no read on Chick other than she's lurking. And remember Flubber?
Lurking alone is NOT a good enough case at this point. Lurking could apply to half the game at this point.
Plus, Andy's play reads like someone fighting to et into a town position, to push the town in a certain direction. Over a lynch that is shaky at best.
And the one person who was calling him conftown was actually scum.
And the one person he was naked townreading was actually scum.
Need I go on?

Now, to MoI. Gonna break down the two worst posts:

And I have been on the brunt end of this before lol.
So yeah.
@MoI: And if HitAlt is Town...?
Your statement can be applied to any claimed PR lynch on D1, ever.
And besides, there’s about 0 chance the lynch is happening now anyways. So what’s with the shade?

This post gets special attention because I want to specifically show the point where my early Townread on your slot was revoked and I want everyone to not lose this post in the spamming we have had lately. I think this post shows a significant amount of scum not Town perspective. I’ve been giving Inferno some leeway on what I thought might be innocent misreading (the one that most looms to mind is the “You are reading worst solely on being Nightkilled”) but that ship has sailed.

Let’s analyze each element of this post which I find filled with scum red-flags.

First let’s address the “And if HitAlt is Town” straw-man element. This is a pure discrediting tactic and one that doesn’t bear any resemblance to things I have actually said. I have not pushed HitAlt as scum. Nor have I suggested that claims should not be examined. Yet the whole thrust of this post is to suggest I’m willing to wagon HitAlt regardless of claim.

Now let’s deal with the logical follow-up element – “Your statement can be applied to any claim”. This is another soft discredit element. Of course my statement can. Never said or inferred it could not. However Inferno ignores the important element of analyzing claims – that powerful roles have a much higher downside if a mislynch occurs than non-powerful ones. Jailkeeper, even one with an oddball Night restriction, is a potent Town role. In a quasi role-madness game a scum JK is much more likely to get caught fake-claiming actions. Thus even if Dramonic is scum he’s very constrained to being able to justify any actions he gets to take (and frankly given the likelyhood of verification methods available to Town he is likely to be caught before N2 if he is scum) with reads. So if he even makes it to Night 2 he will have to provide reads that support his claimed action that have to stand up to scrutiny and cross confirmation. Yet Inferno paid zero consideration to this in his push to say “You have to lynch him he’s scummy and scum can have PRs”. The upsides to lynch Dram as scum when he’s a dead man walking if he is are far outweighed by the downsides of mislynching his claim as Town. And make no mistake – if he is Town that’s a real claim while if he is scum fake-claiming he’s absolutely doomed. If Dram had claimed something like 1-Shot Vouyer or whatnot he hangs as the mislynch downside is minimal. But he didn’t and Town has to consider the possibility they are wrong and weigh the risks / rewards ratios. In a Large game it makes little sense to lynch Dram based on his claim D1 no matter how strong your read is.

Lastly we end with “Why the shade” which is a double whammy.

First it is exactly the kind of buzzwording people like Taly have been decrying. The suspicions I posted 1225 are direct suspicions based on scum motivations. Yet Inferno seeks to handwave and minimize those suspicions by suggesting I’m not scum-hunting but “shading” him.

Secondly look again at 1225 and then look at that sentence and notice the huge disconnect. In 1225 my suspicion of Inferno (and worst / brass also) is based on a hypothetical – Dram being Town and being flipped in the future. Inferno is dead-set that Dram is scum. Town Inferno who believes as strongly as he does in Dram-scum shouldn’t really have such a reaction to 1225. After all I’m only positing he’s scummy in a scenario Town-Inferno doesn’t think actually exists. So why attempt to discredit my gut-reaction to that push when he thinks Dram will never flip Town? However … scum who feels they got caught making a scummy push on what they know to be a mislynch have every reason to defend themselves in a scenario that should not factor into the actual game-state if he was Town and actually reading Dram as scum.

TL-DR Summary – 1230 is full to the brim of scum-oriented posting and Inferno is now out of my Town reads.

1) I want to point out that this is a classic Chainsaw Defense. I am being attacked and my posts are being "torn apart." I. The strongest pusher on the dram wagon.
2) The "Straw Man" Element: This is not at all what I meant by HitAlt being town. My point was that if Dram is a town PR, we lynch here and here and here, and if we lynch Hit, the softed PR, we lynch... where? This is really just pitching a fit about the people on the wagon. Because we started the wagon on Dram, we should get lynched.
Also, "at least two would be scum" is pretty bs.
3)The second part of this, when summed up into a single sentence, reads as, "Let's not lynch Dram, because his role will make all clear in time." This reads suspiciously like "Keep scumPR alive as long as possible." And the accusation that I payed zero consideration to my push is nonsense. MoI is ignoring everything else about Dram because he's claimed JK. Claim analysis does not make everything else fly out the window. And pinning "Scum can have PRs" on me is nonsense-- I wasn't the one who started that, I was just continuing a good point other people had made.
4) First, shade is not a buzzword. Frick off with that. You are shading me by saying I am likely scum because I'm pushing dram, without a real case why. Second, there is another reason for me to call out your "shading." Because I'm calling you out for an attack because I'm pushing dram. I push dram, MoI responds "We should lynch in this pool because lynching PR claims is bad."

And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?

Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.

If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.

So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.

1) There are scumspects around. you and Andy. Please read above.
2) So you're saying that:
A wagon forms around Dram.
The leaders of the wagon are actually hardbussing their Scum PR.
Scum PR claims.
The wagon leaders continue to hardbus their partner.

Doesn't it make more sense at that point for the partners to back off and go after an easier lynch? Especially since they had no way of knowing that dram was going to flip? How were they going to get towncred without the flip? Were they going to shoot their ScumPR?

Then there's the aspect of, in what world does it make sense for scum to bus his partner the way I did, to the point of him claiming, AND THEN CONTINUE TO BUS HIM?
And didn't both Duck and Brass back off of the wagon not long after the claim?

And then, MoI says that if Dram flips town, there's scum in these three slots... and now he says that becasue Dram flips town, there's scum in these slots anyways?
Really?

[Raskolnikov]

Do you really think MoI would hardclaim an inno on scumpartner andrius here

[the worst]

Do you really think MoI would hardclaim an inno on scumpartner andrius here

[the worst]

after chainsaw defending scumbuddy dram d1 lel

[brassherald]

MOI is probably town, but I think the suspicion on me is unwarranted. I'm playing like I always do as town, if people don't want to bother looking into my meta to see that, then they are the ones wasting a lynch and then probably blaming me as I shrug it off in the dead thread.

I think we lynch Chick at some point. However, in general, I would like it to be when we have a slightly smaller pool just because I am not super confident in her scumhunting, and I mean no offense to her, but if it were like Ellibereth, I'd be vote parked because that is assured scum kill either way, in this situation, probably the pool tomorrow is actually a good size that I'd be willing to risk it.

So, basically, lynch Chick Day 3 unless someone can show me she has a good record of scumhunting and I'm just unaware of it, then I'd lynch her today 100%.

[Inferno390]

@Taly: I have good feelings about Brass. His reading felt strong and natural D1, and from a 3rd person perspective, his scumread on me makes sense with progression. He als came out strong today. So far a solid town read.

[Skygazer]

10 pages before I get the chance to even start reading. That's a tad excessive, guys.

[Andrius]

Do you really think MoI would hardclaim an inno on scumpartner andrius here

what the hell did I miss
went to play games with dramonic and HOW MANY PAGES

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE CHILL

[Ausuka]

claim loyal fruit vendor

targeted raskol n1

VOTE: magnaofillusion

[Andrius]

You can also see I kept prodding Andy about his Baker status to see if he would pick up on me crumbing but he didn’t acknowledge it.

I'm a Baker no longer. >_>

What is a Loyal Fruit Vendor tho.

Also just to annoy Inferno.

I have role-related information that basically confirms Chickadee so. Why do you think I wanted to sort her so hard today? I pushed and she showed up and we're good.

S H A Z A M

pedit: wtf is going on

[Andrius]

Ausuka bby someone explain to me what a LOYAL fruit vendor does.
I get you give fruit but what does LOYAL mean.

[Andrius]

according to the wiki
it means it only works on town?

WHAT IS THIS GAME
WHY ARE THERE SO MANY CONFIRMS

[the worst]

Loyal actions only work if used on someone of the same alignment

[Andrius]

it fails on a different alignment
so it only works on same alignment

so

[Ausuka]

Loyal means your target will fail if you target someone of another alignment. So if Raskol was mafia he wouldn't have received fruit.

Pedit: yeah

[the worst]

the fact both of them came forth and claimed to receive fruit independently is p cool

[Andrius]

so rask and I both confirmed fruit so we know that's not fake

if magna is town I am confirmed town
if ausuka is town rask is confirmed town

if one if scum fruit vendor without the loyal part faking that's a big BIG risk since they might not know a parallel exists

potential for two town fruit vendors to exist is non-zero but WHAT IS GAME BALANCE

[the worst]

and we killed the scum roleblocker bahahahaha
rektttt

[the worst]

unless one of MoI or Ausuka is faking the loyal bit

isn't MoI odd night only BTW?

[Andrius]

unless one of MoI or Ausuka is faking the loyal bit

the fruit is confirmed.
the loyal part isn't confirmed save by death

id have to read again

maybe ill stop posting and catch up

[Andrius]

if vig is SK they're probably not claiming ftr.

spoiler alert: we prob have a SK and not a vig
and whoever the sk is, is gonna want us to think its a vig

VOTE: The Worst
Other than me, TW is the one that was really against the Dram wagon, and has kinda played off his fluff posting as "not wanting to clog the game thread." It kind of feels like hiding behind the chill nature of the game.

Chicka Ily but did you actually read d1? o.0

why do you think I targeted chickadee
wanted to see if I could learn her alignment since there's not much to form a read off of in-thread lol

i like this turn of events
not much playing mafia more solving role madness puzzle
always a treat
never the main course though
lets not forget

Chickadee-

imma let you finish but
she's town

With a Mafia flip and no Town death I think this game is ripe for some information drop and setting up long Term PoE

agreed
why I spoke up

I chose Andy last Night because I was very worried about him replacing Gustavo who had picked up suspicion for his overtly aggressive play and might have playstyle redeemed a scum slot.

and might have playstyle redeemed a scum slot

u srs bro
im HORRID as scum lol
YOU KNOW THIS XD

And yesterday I considered it likely that there would be an Even Night alternate role to mine in the setup.

I mean
I, as a mod, would do silly stuff like two of the same role or two of the same role with minor modifications. I enjoy bucking expectations. Pine does too. My role speaks for itself.

Dram’s role PM specifically says the Mafia need to eliminate “opposing Factions” instead of Town.

pine is a :goodmod: so would absolutely leave a wincon open like that

:badmods: say "kill the [other faction]" singular

I don’t see myself not voted parking on Chicka’s lynch today unless someone literally drops a guilty (which I don’t think is happening).

funny story, actually...

someone like vedith

I found your problem