Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[TrinityNZ]

Spoiler: RE: Formerfish's 347

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

I like how FF took the time to correct Quick's VCA here, both that he did it at all (I know he's got a little to gain, but not as much compared to me, a person he is scum reading) and the details he gave (they seem right). I also kind of like the mindset of why he's voting with me - it's not something I would do (vote with a scum read), but I understand his perspective.

Also, I feel like Formerfish and Quick aren't scum together, based on 380.

Am curious why you think this as well.

Briefly, since you've also come around to agreeing they're not scum - it felt like a weird thing for a scum partner to bring to the main thread. I feel like, if they were partners, FF would be disagreeing in their PT, like "Hey dude, could you at least read the thread a little? You're making yourself look bad lol" or something. Also, there's something about the way he phrased it - "can't begin to understand the game state as is" - that feels genuine and towny.

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

At the point in the thread where you asked this, no, not really. If I had to pick one, I would have said Quick. Now... I don't know. I feel like Quick's emotional reactions could have been done by town or scum, and Formerfish could be responding like he is as town or scum, too. I almost want to say that Quick's reactions are

slightly

town, and Formerfish's poking (especially in 531)

might

be smug scum? But smugness isn't an exclusively scum trait, and it runs counter to my town read on FF, so... I don't know. ¯\_(:/)_/¯

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

I dont love it, as I mentioned I think in a post a made myself. They were scum together and it was one of the things that tipped us to her partner being scum in that game. Lynched day 1, and then the remaining town lynched her day 2 for the win.

So you know I’m playing a completely different game to the last one right? I think I’m more honest and open, as I don’t have to lie and pretend to be town. And although I’m still nervous about looking like an idiot, I’m not worried about making mistakes as I have nothing to hide.

[TrinityNZ]

Spoiler: RE: Formerfish's 347

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

Not quite, VC1.02 has Oka, Ice and Trinity on me, but those are all RVS votes. VC1.03 still the same 3. 1.04 no change. 1.05 Oka and Ice change their vote and only trinity is left on.

Flicker wasnt even on the board til 1.04 when nancy and stan voted her. She finally voted in 1.05 for Oka, and I could see a possibility for a bus vote from her on her partner here. Especially if she thought it could put some distance between the two of them.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things.

Nothing to get caught from when the votes are all hellos of sorts. I guess I am a likeable guy and have played a lot of newbie games recently so I am a player that they are going to remember and poke during rvs.

That said, I have known him to be lynchbait

O rly? have we played together? Where have you seen me as lynchbait?

, but a really good player

totally correct here

, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Nah dont sweat it. Heres what I see. Either my read on Flicker is wrong, and she is pushing a legit scum read in Oka, which I also happen to share, or she is scum with him and she is trying to distance herself with a fake blow up between the two and then a bus vote. Like I said, I came to a scum read on Oka dependent on my own variables. If flicker is helping achieve the goals I want to, it doesnt matter what her alignment is yet.

I like how FF took the time to correct Quick's VCA here, both that he did it at all (I know he's got a little to gain, but not as much compared to me, a person he is scum reading) and the details he gave (they seem right). I also kind of like the mindset of why he's voting with me - it's not something I would do (vote with a scum read), but I understand his perspective.

Also, I feel like Formerfish and Quick aren't scum together, based on 380.

Am curious why you think this as well.

Briefly, since you've also come around to agreeing they're not scum - it felt like a weird thing for a scum partner to bring to the main thread. I feel like, if they were partners, FF would be disagreeing in their PT, like "Hey dude, could you at least read the thread a little? You're making yourself look bad lol" or something. Also, there's something about the way he phrased it - "can't begin to understand the game state as is" - that feels genuine and towny.

@flicker do you think one of quick/ff is scum?

At the point in the thread where you asked this, no, not really. If I had to pick one, I would have said Quick. Now... I don't know. I feel like Quick's emotional reactions could have been done by town or scum, and Formerfish could be responding like he is as town or scum, too. I almost want to say that Quick's reactions are

slightly

town, and Formerfish's poking (especially in 531)

might

be smug scum? But smugness isn't an exclusively scum trait, and it runs counter to my town read on FF, so... I don't know. ¯\_(:/)_/¯

This is actually pretty good analysis of my play style. Its mean to infuriate people a little, but it can be a volatile one as well. I like the thought that went into reading me.

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

I dont love it, as I mentioned I think in a post a made myself. They were scum together and it was one of the things that tipped us to her partner being scum in that game. Lynched day 1, and then the remaining town lynched her day 2 for the win.

So you know I’m playing a completely different game to the last one right? I think I’m more honest and open, as I don’t have to lie and pretend to be town. And although I’m still nervous about looking like an idiot, I’m not worried about making mistakes as I have nothing to hide.

[TrinityNZ]

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

I’m not pushing on you any more remember? I had another look at your posts and thought I might be wrong. After reading more tonight, I’m liking what I’m seeing and I’m thinking you are definitely town.

[TrinityNZ]

@quick, current read on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Trinity is *probably* Town. I sense newb Townness a lot there. Trinity has stuck to their guns when it hasn't been optimal to do so and, no offence to them, but I don't think they have the experience to play this way as Scum.

Ice is a tentative Town Lean. I think his process for getting reads is mostly wrong, but that doesn't mean he is Scum. Instead, I am leaning that he's just new to trying to come up with Reads. This is exemplified by the fact that he is used to playing in big games with lots of roles, which would make play based reads a weak point for him.

Eragon is probably Null/Null Scum for me atm. Not a high priority for me rn. I haven't had a lot of opportunities to engage with him in real time, and that's kinda what I am waiting for to get a better read on him. WhyMafia makes some good points on Eragon, but at the same time, that could just be playstyle.

No offence taken

[TrinityNZ]

Trinity I'm more stuck on - I would like more content from her - for now I guess she's null

What sort of content would you like to see from me?

[TrinityNZ]

wow! contradiction! lets lynch her now

@nancy do you think there is a strong chance that one of ff/me is scum?

Oka, which post were you referring to here?

[nancy]

Im working on not throwing my vote around like Dirk Digler at a step class.

Best line ever! Thank you, you’ve made my day (which was pretty shitty).

Hugs. Mine sucked too.

Help me see how you got to town on FF?

[nancy]

I’m not pushing on you any more remember? I had another look at your posts and thought I might be wrong. After reading more tonight, I’m liking what I’m seeing and I’m thinking you are definitely town.

Um. Please show your work?

That's a kinda big swing.

[TrinityNZ]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

Nancy, I was referring to what I’d said about FF in this post.

[TrinityNZ]

Im working on not throwing my vote around like Dirk Digler at a step class.

Best line ever! Thank you, you’ve made my day (which was pretty shitty).

Hugs. Mine sucked too.

Help me see how you got to town on FF?

Thanks, hugs to you too

[nancy]

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Quick, people can't read your mind. The only way we can understand you is if you explain yourself in ways that make sense to us. We can't know what things you're referring to when you say "his posts are town motivated but what they are pushing is suspect", because that description is extremely vague.

"Town motivated" can mean literally anything for all we know, and unless you actually explain specifically what you think is town motivated, those are just two empty words that furthermore have no connection to anything that has happened in this game. Likewise for the "what they are pushing is suspect". It's unreasonable to expect someone to know what you're talking about, and it's unfair to treat them like they're stupid and bad for not knowing.

[nancy]

Nancy, I was referring to what I’d said about FF in this post.

Okay, so you think he's town because you think that Oka is mafia and that FF and Oka are never mafia partners?

What if you're wrong, and Oka is town?

[nancy]

FF seems to be doing an awful lot of self-meta recently which is kinda questionable after him being a main wagon.

Didn't you just back off your scumread?

The way you're shading FF here is pretty sketchy.

[nancy]

i think your both town and should redirect your focus on finding the scum in eragon/trinity/iceman trio

@nancy reads rn on eragon/trinity/iceman?

Same as before my dude. Let me know if you want my take on anything specific about them.

[nancy]

Well, I come out of page 30 feeling pretty tired of FF and Quick going at each other, sort of moving towards them both being town but don't have any super strongly feelings about it. The way Quick just transitioned from that into talking about his reads felt genuine, I think.

@FF @Quick if you two could try to minimize interactions with each other that would be pretty helpful. I really don't want this game to get bogged down by conflict between you two, especially not after I'm dead and not around to put a stop to it.

[nancy]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

[nancy]

Alright, I'm going to head back and see if I can dig through that Flicker wall then hopefully do a reread of FF and go over my Oka/FF/Flicker reads and probably move my vote. Feel like I'm just going to end up voting Flicker here because I don't want the Oka wagon to be a runaway thing and I think Flicker needs a lot more attention than she's been getting, but I do want to give her the benefit of the doubt as much as possible and see if I can't find something in her ISO that looks town.

[nancy]

I can't make heads or tails of the Flicker post. I can't tell if it's just that she's a newb and is reading into things in a really strange way or if it's that she has a ton of TMI and I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to try right now.

@Flicker I really need you to be more present. You have less posts than the mod right now and that's really not okay. I really need more from you here because I think you might be mafia and there's just enough for me to go off to see that you're town if you are here. You don't have to make wallposts. Your posts don't have to be truthbombs or full of gems. Just a bit of thread presence and sharing your thoughts on things that are happening would go a long way.


Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia but I do need to go over FF properly and figure out my read on him and I'm super wiped and can't do it now.

[nancy]

Meh.

Vote: Flicker

Please do things.

[nancy]

I think my issue with Flicker is that I'm going to feel sick if I get her lynched because of things she can't help doing because she's a newb. I so badly just need more from the slot and will hopefully be able to figure it out if she's town.

[nancy]

I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me.

I don't really get this. My reads aren't necessarily better than anyone else's.

[nancy]

Take care, I'm out for the night. Please be friendly with each other.

[nancy]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

Oh, I forgot to say why this post scared me.

You were like, partially inside my brain, it felt like. Mostly the timing of your Oka read and how you backed off FF. I'd been kind of thinking about doing that for a while, then you did it, and you even had the unaligned read as well. Your reads were also really similar to mine. Was spooky.

[IcemanCh]

I'm super swamped at work. I'm on page 29. I will catch up later today and post comments.

[OkaPoka]

no im asking you what are the poor answers that i have made that you seem to dislike

Sorry, I got that wrong! I’m not disagreeing that I’m not defensive against you though

k can i have those bad responses though?

some people, including myself to an extent, feel that being overly defensive is indicative of scum alignment

Would it not be fair to say that town could be defensive too, perhaps if they’re feeling that their words are deliberately being twisted or they’re being made to look bad by scum trying to get a mislynch?

sure to an extent

wow! contradiction! lets lynch her now

@nancy do you think there is a strong chance that one of ff/me is scum?

Oka, which post were you referring to here?

its a joke!