Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Nancy Drew 39]

Nance have you read Shoshin's only scumgame onsite?

No, can you give me that link again?

[the worst]

I'm pretty sick right now and need to crash soonish. Nancy I wanna show you what I saw wrt gamestate. Again I know this isn't a great situation for you but if Shoshin is scum she doesn't have a partner. I'd be really surprised if wisdom was scum with anyone but rando here, if he's scum. and a world exists here where Shoshin is "scum with a town role pm". Her onsite meta is weak but if she's scum here she is way far outside her established scum meta.

to an extent she should be sortable by postcount and wordcount. the amount of content she has vomited up here is town indicative.

she seems to come across as a lot less passionate and engaged as scum. she has definitely been passionate and engaged here, like to a fault.

annoyingly she also has a point about mechanics. night kills here are consistent with the scumteam trying to duck a bodyguard. using a bg ability on Nico the same night she was killed makes no sense unless she knew Nico was macho. Nico's masquerade hood is confirmed T/T so I can't think of a way scum!Shoshin could have known that. unless she's like a mafia jailkeeper which I'd need to check against other night actions.


coming into this phase EVERY PLAYER wanted to lynch Shoshin at least a bit. she's done herself no favours. I can't see scum!Shoshin realising she needs two more mislynches to win and then charging into zero-charisma territory. this day phase is a lot more consistent with Shoshin being the designated mislynch because she would be VERY satisfying to lynch right here.


I think Wisdom thought he had this in the bag. his posting is super consistent with what I'd expect from flailing scum whose plan has just come unstuck. I'd be genuinely surprised if this is town!Wisdom who has decided to abandon all reason and just lock into a half assed mechanical locktown read on rando.



it all just..... feels wrong as fuck



I agree toxicity is not a fair way to play and it is a crummy scum strategy. if Wisdom is actually town here we powerlynch Shoshin tomorrow and I'll be relieved. But more and more I'm not seeing this as town!Wisdom. I'm sorry.



without bordering on trust tell territory, please believe I am never ever scum with Shoshin here. I'll push people hard and bitch and moan about gamestate as scum but outright rudeness is totally intolerable. if she's scum she never deserves to win this.

[the worst]

@Nancy https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76221

without tryna be rude she's just not good at scum
not saying there's a 0% chance she's scum here because I'm a bad meta reader. but compare the games

[Nancy Drew 39]

i mean, maybe you thought youd get a random lynch without a gladiate
You only gladiated when shoshin was about to be hammered

Actually, I’m glad he did that because the fact is that on N6, her role will be self-resolving anyhow. I am obviously going to be the NK and Shoshin will either prove her town bg role without a doubt or she won’t. IOW, If she makes it to LYLO in my place, she’s confiscum, so she’d be a slam dunk to lynch at 3 person LYLO with both of us still in the game N6. My point being, that it would have been stupid to risk mislynching an ultimately self-resolving slot.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I'm pretty sick right now and need to crash soonish. Nancy I wanna show you what I saw wrt gamestate. Again I know this isn't a great situation for you but if Shoshin is scum she doesn't have a partner. I'd be really surprised if wisdom was scum with anyone but rando here, if he's scum. and a world exists here where Shoshin is "scum with a town role pm". Her onsite meta is weak but if she's scum here she is way far outside her established scum meta.

to an extent she should be sortable by postcount and wordcount. the amount of content she has vomited up here is town indicative.

she seems to come across as a lot less passionate and engaged as scum. she has definitely been passionate and engaged here, like to a fault.

annoyingly she also has a point about mechanics. night kills here are consistent with the scumteam trying to duck a bodyguard. using a bg ability on Nico the same night she was killed makes no sense unless she knew Nico was macho. Nico's masquerade hood is confirmed T/T so I can't think of a way scum!Shoshin could have known that. unless she's like a mafia jailkeeper which I'd need to check against other night actions.


coming into this phase EVERY PLAYER wanted to lynch Shoshin at least a bit. she's done herself no favours. I can't see scum!Shoshin realising she needs two more mislynches to win and then charging into zero-charisma territory. this day phase is a lot more consistent with Shoshin being the designated mislynch because she would be VERY satisfying to lynch right here.


I think Wisdom thought he had this in the bag. his posting is super consistent with what I'd expect from flailing scum whose plan has just come unstuck. I'd be genuinely surprised if this is town!Wisdom who has decided to abandon all reason and just lock into a half assed mechanical locktown read on rando.



it all just..... feels wrong as fuck



I agree toxicity is not a fair way to play and it is a crummy scum strategy. if Wisdom is actually town here we powerlynch Shoshin tomorrow and I'll be relieved. But more and more I'm not seeing this as town!Wisdom. I'm sorry.



without bordering on trust tell territory, please believe I am never ever scum with Shoshin here. I'll push people hard and bitch and moan about gamestate as scum but outright rudeness is totally intolerable. if she's scum she never deserves to win this.

Well, I can’t believe you’d betray our friendship this badly just to win a game, so I believe you. I think the outright certainty both random (okay well 98% lol) and Wisdom are displaying about each other’s alignments are definitely concerning. So maybe Shoshin is right. Maybe scum did want to kill me and targetted Reality - who if Wisdom/random are in fact scum - would have been far better choice for their endgame, than I would be obviously.

See I was smart not to rush my vote because I was obviously not able to think clearly that first night for obvious reasons. There’s a beyond better than even odds, I might have voted incorrectly.

[Wisdom]

no, what was right is that delaying this is getting you convinced to hand the win to scum despite the game being solved
i was right once again

[Wisdom]

you are discarding all reason against me being scum, against random being scum, just because tw goes "OMG wisdom somehow solved the game and figured random is town, must be scum"
well done nancy

[Wisdom]

but this is pointless
Just vote me so we can have this chat in endgame

[Nancy Drew 39]

no, what was right is that delaying this is getting you convinced to hand the win to scum despite the game being solved
i was right once again

You know what had transpired that night. You also have to know that I was extremely upset about it. I am rarely capable of making logically informed decisions when I’m in that state of mind and barring some kind of emergency, I know myself well enough not to make inalterable decisions when I am that emotional , because they’re frequently wrong.

I haven’t made up my mind yet.

[Nancy Drew 39]

you are discarding all reason against me being scum, against random being scum, just because tw goes "OMG wisdom somehow solved the game and figured random is town, must be scum"
well done nancy

Lol, once again you are underestimating me. I am not rushing this vote with damn good reason. You can choose to believe this or not. \_0_/

[Nancy Drew 39]

but this is pointless
Just vote me so we can have this chat in endgame

I don’t really believe you want me to do that but this is a very clever gambit on your part irrespective of alignment.

[Wisdom]

its not a gambit nancy
Im tired
It makes no sense for me to be scum yet youre considering it

[Nancy Drew 39]

its not a gambit nancy
Im tired
It makes no sense for me to be scum yet youre considering it

Of course I’m considering it, I have too. I also have to consider whether or not the worst could also possibly be scum. I’m considering the possibility/probability of everyone but me being scum in this game.

I’m also saying if it is a gambit, it’s NAI obviously because like you said, you lose and if town - we lose, so I doubt you want to throw the game in either case.

[Shoshin]

Ank is a crazy strong town player

This is not what you said on D1. Can you explain the change?

Please explain.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Nancy https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76221

without tryna be rude she's just not good at scum
not saying there's a 0% chance she's scum here because I'm a bad meta reader. but compare the games

I don’t know how I’d have read her in that game but the difference in content is quite dramatic.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Is anyone getting a town read on Princess?

I'm having a lot of trouble with it. She claims town, and that angel is, but no reasoning to back it up. 1st post claims stoned, then doesn't do drugs, but claims to be a rock? It's a bunch of stuff that honestly I can't make heads or tails of, and isn't really helping with the game. But is it really an anti-town tell, or a player for whom this is their first game?

I'll let you decide but the rock flavourclaim makes sense? They are Ludo's friends ^_^

Oh wow, this post is completely irrelevant to the current gamestate but I had no idea Rennais was crumming.

[Shoshin]

In 681, Taly subtly tries to derail lynch on Creature. A few posts earlier, Random calls Creature lynchbait.

[Shoshin]

@Nancy

You said earlier that Taly doesn't make sense with Creature. But in 681 he suggested moving away from the Creature lynch despite voting Creature early on D1. That's the most common pattern that scum fall into when distancing early in the game. They look for ways to justify another wagon, wait for town to start the wagon, and then hop on when safe to do so.

At the same time that Taly hints at town Creature, Random calls Creature lynchbait. The sequence of votes that follow are interesting.

Joral agrees with Taly/Random and votes Renais in 700.

Wheme responds by voting Creature in 710.

I vote Creature after Wheme in 721.

These are both town votes preventing a counterwagon on town Renais. There's no other way to read these votes. If I were scum, I could have joined Joral on Renais.

Random tries directing my attention to Renais in 739. The lynch is building on Creature but Random wants my attention on Renais. What's Random's intent? If I had voted Renais, do you think Random would have joined me? If not, what was the point of asking that question in the first place?

Renais could have been a counterwagon to the Creature lynch if I joined it. Wheme used his vote loosely. The scum would have joined the mislynch. Joral was already voting. Renais was playing like lynhbait. But instead, I say that Renais isn't who I want lynched. And I stick on Creature. That's a big town-tell for me.

The counterwagon on Renais isn't going anywhere, so Random suddenly starts pushing Nico in 753. Why the sudden turn onto Nico? Nico's lurking, but that doesn't make Nico scummier than Renais or TPF. But that's where Random ends up turning. What's his intent?

Nico doesn't go anywhere, so Random votes TPF in 791. You follow him in 793. That's understandable, because TPF is scum, but it's also terrible timing. We need votes consolidating on Creature, yet Random is still looking for another lynch. Why?

It doesn't take much to see that Random doesn't want to lynch Creature. He looks for mislynches on Renais & Nico. That doesn't work, so he turns to TPF. His least-preferred lynch is Creature, the scum redirector and 1-shot strongman, so when he can't get a mislynch, he looks for a counterwagon on a worthless scum role.

Random never votes Creature.

The day ends in a no lynch.

This is why I've been suspecting Random the entire game.

I still don't see how this sequence ever comes from town. It's too calculated. Yes, town sometimes push mislynches, but they do so cluelessly. Town don't look for lynches on every viable mislynch (Renais & Nico) before eventually pushing a lynch on less valuable scum (identity cop vs redirector/strongman) when there's an obvious scum in front of their eyes (Creature). They also don't call that obvious scum "lynchbait" while pushing lynches on actual lynchbait (Renais & Nico) - there's a massive inconsistency in the way Random approaches that.

If I'm wrong about this sequence events, please explain. I don't want to make the wrong decision here.

[Wisdom]

where youre wrong is that creature is known for being terrible as scum and therefore everyone who rolls scum with creature busses him rather than defend him or tie themselves to him
The actions youre describing are taly and random trying to figure out if this is lynchbait creature or iust scum creature
If either was scum with creature theyd just tunnel him until hes dead
I know thats definitely what id do

[Shoshin]

If everyone knows that scum bus Creature, why wouldn't scum defend him to look townie?

[Wisdom]

look at tw on the other hand
at some point he just accepts that everyone knows this is scum creature and just tries to get people to talk about other things
this is more like how a creature buddy acts

[Wisdom]

If everyone knows that scum bus Creature, why wouldn't scum defend him to look townie?

because not everyone does
People have to assume not everyone will be aware about and just go for the bussing since its more likely to give them cred than depend on what people know about meta

[Nancy Drew 39]

In 681, Taly subtly tries to derail lynch on Creature. A few posts earlier, Random calls Creature lynchbait.

I probably have my board preferences set up different from most. Can you requote this?

[Wisdom]

shoshin why are you acting like you're trying to figure this out?
Its confirmed to you that tw cant be scum with anyone so from your perspective if tw is scum hes solo
So shouldnt you be lynching me since you have nothing to lose?

[Wisdom]

Like, unless tw has a stashed doublekill somehow, you can win even if im lynched
So why the big dilemma?