Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Clemency]

ah well i'm sure i'll get more competitive overtime too

[Clemency]

ow i just got a massive headache

[Garmr]

I kinda got a cold as well. So Clemency what do about Raya?

[Clemency]

i'm not entirely sure
i have a bad habit of being naïve towards people who are nice to me/defend me

[Clemency]

i'll give it a more thorough read once i'm home and not phoneposting

[Raya36]

Honestly I don't like the way Raya handled the Bji vs Sashaddin. She gave me the impression of wanting to get involved with out dirtying her hands. Post 69 Enforces that impression to me as she seemed to back off wanting to avoid a conflict with clemency.

My post was misinterpreted so I explained that I wasn't calling him out and was instead looking for his thoughts

Anyway, now that I've gotten a bit of a defense I'll post my thoughts:

I think this is a TvT interaction.

I don't think what bji was saying is necessarily a scumtell at all. Sure, there is an inconsistency with what clemency was saying but I think it's more a personality defined inconsistency than a scum inconsistency considering the context. I think it was a good attempt at getting us out of rvs though and it was more or less successful. The chatty opener scum point is a good point though. I can see the whole leader thing as scum 'reluctantly' taking a town leading role in the game. Not a scumtell on it's own though for sure.

I think the most that came out of this was clemency's reaction. I'm having a hard time deciding if what we're seeing is town or scum frustration but I at least believe it is genuine. The OMGUS vote seems more so to be frustrated town though. Scum would likely be more careful?

I dislike how she calls this interaction a town vs town but proceeds to call clemecy's reaction null and over mutiple posts. As seen in posts 93 and post 95. If it's a town vs town you wouldn't be calling the slot null. She then never gives any reason to think why clemency slot may be town. I have a theory the reason she said it was town vs town was because she wanted to avoid conflict with clemency because his the type of player that will drag you into the spot light.


I might be premature voting now and could of got more information latter on but it may fizzle out as well, So I decided to strike while the iron is hot and vote now.


VOTE: Raya36

To explain this a little more clearly I found the interaction to be likely TvT overall as an initial and not thought. It was nothing I felt confident about. It's too early to look at an interaction and settle on the players' alignments. The player I would find more likely to be scum in this interaction is clemency if I'm wrong about it being TvT. That's why I'm also considering his reaction being scum frustration as much as town frustration.

[Garmr]

@raya
For point 1 fair enough but still kinda avoids confrontation taking that approach but I don't feel it's as scummy and town might do it as well so I'm going to drop it.


Point 2 however! That makes no sense, your initial reaction was it was a town vs town, yet you saw most of his actions as null except the omgus vote saying scum would be more careful. You seem to be more focused on the null interaction and using it to say why you should null read this slot than trying to focus on anything alignment indicative. That to me seems like your shading the slot. The tvt reaction seems forced to me especially if you are focusing on nulling up the slot which I think is actually worse than trying to scum up the slot in this situation. Also you throw doubt Bji as well in case you have to switch up on him latter despite saying you feel his townie.


So I guess the important question is do you lean town or lean scum if you had to pick one for the clem slot?

[Raya36]

I would town lean clem before I would scum lean for sure. I will admit to being inconsistent in my reads there and I 100% see where you're coming from. In my opinion it comes more from me not being confident in the interaction being TvT. On a second glance I saw more null actions coming from clem than I did town.

If it helps to clear things up here's a quick reanalysis/summary of both:

Clemency:
-Genuine frustration (Initially but told me town but on a second look I considered it to be scum frustration as well) (null points but leaning town)
-OMGUS (I expect scum with any experience to be careful about this which is why I see it as more town frustration) (town points)
-I think his playstyle makes him lynchbaity/easy to mislynch
-Initially was focused on getting the game to start. Scum would likely let a slightly less active game sit instead of trying to get conversation started. (Town points)
-bji had a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'. It is possible for scum to open chatty so they can easily get a town leading role and it is possible he was faking reluctancy ot taking this role. This is when I started to hesitate on him being town for sure but alone this is a weak reason to scum read someone.


Bji:
-Seemed to be putting in a genuine effort to get us out of rvs (town points)
-His 'attack' on clemency was weak but it was good for the start of the game and did bring out some interesting reactions (town points)
-did have a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'
-Like Clemency seemed intent on starting the game. Something scum would likely not do as I explained above. (Town points)
-I also did consider he could've been trying to put some sus on clemency but I'm not convinced this is the case

[Garmr]

I would town lean clem before I would scum lean for sure. I will admit to being inconsistent in my reads there and I 100% see where you're coming from. In my opinion it comes more from me not being confident in the interaction being TvT. On a second glance I saw more null actions coming from clem than I did town.

If it helps to clear things up here's a quick reanalysis/summary of both:

Clemency:
-Genuine frustration (Initially but told me town but on a second look I considered it to be scum frustration as well) (null points but leaning town)
-OMGUS (I expect scum with any experience to be careful about this which is why I see it as more town frustration) (town points)
-I think his playstyle makes him lynchbaity/easy to mislynch
-Initially was focused on getting the game to start. Scum would likely let a slightly less active game sit instead of trying to get conversation started. (Town points)
-bji had a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'. It is possible for scum to open chatty so they can easily get a town leading role and it is possible he was faking reluctancy ot taking this role. This is when I started to hesitate on him being town for sure but alone this is a weak reason to scum read someone.


Bji:
-Seemed to be putting in a genuine effort to get us out of rvs (town points)
-His 'attack' on clemency was weak but it was good for the start of the game and did bring out some interesting reactions (town points)
-did have a good point about him being a 'chatty opener'
-Like Clemency seemed intent on starting the game. Something scum would likely not do as I explained above. (Town points)
-I also did consider he could've been trying to put some sus on clemency but I'm not convinced this is the case

That sounds like a pretty good reason to lean town on clem but that leads back to the original question why emphasise the nullness of the slot? I mean there really wasn't a need to over explain yourself over multiple posts.

If I was in your shoes with similar view points I would just say "while his action seem null over all my gut says his town" and wouldn't dwell on it. It's not like a townie can read perfectly all the time and can't change our minds (through I'm stubborn sometimes I been known to 180)

Like for example if you want my opinion bji points "I thought it was reachy but since it's a rvs breaker it's alright, so reachy is acceptable now when it wouldn't be latter on." I had a quick mention what I thought was nullish I moved on from it and wouldn't mention it unless something new popped up that shed new light on the scenario.

[Raya36]

The overemphasization was unintentional. I guess I do that sometimes when I'm trying to engage more since I think I tend to be on the quieter side most games. So I guess it's just the result of me trying to change my playstyle up a bit.

Thanks for the input though. I'll try to be a little more clear and to-the-point from now on.

[Garmr]

The overemphasization was unintentional. I guess I do that sometimes when I'm trying to engage more since I think I tend to be on the quieter side most games. So I guess it's just the result of me trying to change my playstyle up a bit.

Thanks for the input though. I'll try to be a little more clear and to-the-point from now on.

I am going to be honest I was a little excited because I thought caught scum early on but now I'm not as sure.

[Irrelephant11]

wow I forgot this game exists
anyone caught scum yet or

[Irrelephant11]

The overemphasization was unintentional. I guess I do that sometimes when I'm trying to engage more since I think I tend to be on the quieter side most games. So I guess it's just the result of me trying to change my playstyle up a bit.

Thanks for the input though. I'll try to be a little more clear and to-the-point from now on.

I am going to be honest I was a little excited because I thought caught scum early on but now I'm not as sure.

lol hadn't seen this yet

[Irrelephant11]

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

[bji]

garmr/skitter definitely town
clemency/bji/sashaddin prob town
VOTE: raya

Terrible entrance, non effort reads. Scum or worthless town, kill it either way.

UNVOTE: Clemency
VOTE: Irrelephant11

[Clemency]

aggressive

[bji]

aggressive

Do you disagree?

[Irrelephant11]

I disagree
how about talking to me?

[bji]

I disagree
how about talking to me?

OK. Given that Raya and Garmr are bending over backwards to explain themselves to each other, why did you pick Raya as scum over Garmr? Those slots are looking very similar to me at the moment, I would like to know your justification in picking one not the other.

Also, why did you come in with a "oh hey look I'm not even paying attention I'm so casual" post and then one minute later quote a post that had occurred one minute before you got here?

I mean you're typing into a text box that would show the Garmr's post directly above it, yet you write a post a minute later saying 'lol handn't seen this yet' and apparently *something* in that post was enough to pull you to a vote on Raya?

Are you actually this lazy or are you just trying to pretend to be? I mean playing scum is hard, I know, I have done it before and it is a sh*t ton of work to do well. So I can see just throwing up your hands and deciding to play as a lazy incompetent doesn't bother to read anything townie as an easier way to try to slide through.

[Irrelephant11]

The text box I typed into was on the first page (you know they have those on every page, right?) and then it brought me to my post on the last page, where garmr's post sat
then I read the game

I had the same thoughts as Garmr re:Raya involving herself in the early argument (mindmeld this early is reason enough to lightly townread garmr). raya's early play seemed like an easy way to get townread, by playing peacemaker, and I think her explanation since then has been overly long because she's making it up as she goes
that's my whole read on both of them
not sure why providing reads on almost the entire playerlist counts as "so lazy it deserves a lynch either way" (when there's, say, flubber who just *isn't playing* atm), so that's not a good look from you

[Irrelephant11]

I also think raya's read that you came out of the argument looking townier than clemency isn't the way town would naturally read the argument, because I think clemency's emotionality comes from town more than scum for sure. Therefore the idea that clemency's posts "could be scum frustration" isn't a towny way of thinking - any towny moment "could be scum", but that "well it could come from both alignments" when it's more likely to come from one alignment is not helpful when forming reads (whereas it

is

helpful when keeping mislynch options open).

[bji]

The text box I typed into was on the first page (you know they have those on every page, right?) and then it brought me to my post on the last page, where garmr's post sat
then I read the game

I had the same thoughts as Garmr re:Raya involving herself in the early argument (mindmeld this early is reason enough to lightly townread garmr). raya's early play seemed like an easy way to get townread, by playing peacemaker, and I think her explanation since then has been overly long because she's making it up as she goes
that's my whole read on both of them
not sure why providing reads on almost the entire playerlist counts as "so lazy it deserves a lynch either way" (when there's, say, flubber who just *isn't playing* atm), so that's not a good look from you

Well those are interesting thoughts. I do not know what 'mindmeld' means though. Why did it take being challenged on your play before you divulged those thoughts?

OK so here is what I saw at first:

- You posted some fluff whose purpose I cannot fathom except to posture as not really caring about the game
- Then you immediately quote a Garmr/Raya36 interaction with another very casual 'lol hand't seen this yet' comment
- Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment
- Then you vote Raya

However now that you explained how you got there, I do admit that it makes a bit more sense, especially given that I finally understand after the 10th read through exactly what you were referring to when you said "lol hadn't seen this yet". I had been reading it over and over thinking that what you "handn't seen" was some nugget that supposedly gave you a clear scum read on raya which is why you ended up voting her. But now I actually realize you are lol'ing over having first posted "anyone caught scum yet" and then immediately noticing that in the post right before yours Garmr had said "I thought caught scum early on", which I guess you saw as a funny coincidence?

I still don't like the smell of your play but I admit that your justifications are at least sensible.

Flubber isn't playing so there is no need to even discuss that slot atm.

Oops. I walled.

[Irrelephant11]

- You posted some fluff whose purpose I cannot fathom except to posture as not really caring about the game

idk when this game started but my first post was to explain why I hadn't yet posted (I literally forgot this game existed)

which I guess you saw as a funny coincidence?

yes

Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment

Talk to me more about this
I don't really remember reads on skitter, garmr, or sashaddin? Can you provide examples of whose reads you think I was copying?

[Irrelephant11]

idk when this game started

two days ago, so yeah I feel like my entrance was reasonable. Don't you?

[bji]

idk when this game started

two days ago, so yeah I feel like my entrance was reasonable. Don't you?

Nah man, that's not how I'd play it, I mean I don't think I'd waste people's time with that first post but whatever, play style and all. I'm not explicitly trying to beat you up about it, just trying to let you know how I read it.

Then you post a fairly safe read list that just kind of echoes common sentiment

Talk to me more about this
I don't really remember reads on skitter, garmr, or sashaddin? Can you provide examples of whose reads you think I was copying?

Nobody had even expressed any scum leanings towards garmr/skitter so you're not rocking the boat by calling those "definitely town".

Clemency and myself were definitely the 'hot topics' for a while there of people trying to decide what our interactions indicated about our alignment, and I felt that most of the conclusions were wishy-washy "it's probably TvT" statements, so "prob town" is another consensus-matching call.

Sashaddin, nobody had much opinion on.

I fell justified in calling that a "fairly safe read list", in that it didn't express any opinion that anyone had indicated any likelihood of disagreeing on.

The vote on Raya is the only novel idea in the read list, and at the time I posted the quoted text, I hadn't figured out what your "lol" was in reference to, still thought it was you trying to justify the vote but with very little ("non effort") evidence.