Mini Normal 2044: Game over!

[Clemency]

Sashaddin - when you wrote the above, did you expect Clem to play the game as he has played it?

Has he played it like you would expect him to if he were town?

Well yeah, when people want to experiment other play styles here they create another account to preserve their meta. Or sorry if I didn't understand the question well.

I don't get what you are saying here. Are you saying that when you played Clem previously he was using a different account? And that the Clem account is using a different play style than his other account?

/quote]

he means i'm playing similar to my last game

[Clemency]

fuck

[skitter30]

UNVOTE: Persivul
The slot is active and won't be mod-killed, and the guy seems towny for the time I've to catch up.

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

[Sashaddin]

sash, how likely did it seem to you that the slot would be mod-killed?

At that time, a lot. Normal 2030 ended with a few double replacements and I had heard that the mod had been very patient, so I kinda flipped I guess. I just wanted to try to keep that option off the table.

[Sashaddin]

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

[Sashaddin]

he means i'm playing similar to my last game

I should have only said this. He's the same.

I was pointing out that

in general

people have a second account to play like sh!t to preserve the reputation of their main account.

[bji]

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

[Lady Angel]

Votecount 1.12:

Bji: 2 (Garmr, Irrelephant11)
Persivul: 1 (Skitter30)
Creature: 3 (bji, ReaperOfSouls, Clemency)

L-2

Clemency: 1 (Persivul)

If this is incorrect please notify me as to what needs to be changed. I write these by hand and thus mistakes are inevitable.

Not voting: Creature, Sashaddin

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end on December 1st, 2018 at 3:30 PM PST or 5 days, 19 hours, and 43 minutes from this post.

As it's american thanksgiving weekend, no prods will be given out until monday. Sashaddin will be V/LA from then until wednesday.

I do apologize for the lateness of this, Sundays are not a good day for me.

[Garmr]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

[bji]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

Sure it was this quote from post 257:

"3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time."

[bji]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

Sure it was this quote from post 257:

"3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time."

To clarify: I'm not suggesting he said that your removing the hammer was inconsistent with

your

previous games, that was never the point; it's that it's inconsistent with other games he's played previously, meaning that your behavior could be considered anomolous with his experience of the game in general; I don't know nor do I expect he knows whether or not it's consistent with your particular previous play nor whether that play in your previous games was town or scum at the time.

[Sashaddin]

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

Ok, here we go:`

1. While I see what you are speaking about, the emotion is all we have on Day 1 since there wasn't any flips yet. I try to place myself in other pple's minds to learn their playstyles and jusge them accordingly. It's a lot better than when I wans't doing much on Day 1, trust me. Clem could fake emotion, what I am telling you is that I don't feel he's cheating us. But I'm not the best player, so I accept that my approach and results can be flawed.

2. I have a previous experience on Clem, who has posted extensively, but I don't on Reaper.

3. She is the only one of the three we've mentioned so far who had given good content at this point. I couldn't do that with either Reaper or Clemency

4. I think you have to evaluate each player according to his style (have you ever played with Not_Mafia?). But you are totally right about the "pass". Probably because I've already played with him and "think " I know him...

5. Well if you are speaking about 207, garmr explained it all: He didn't want the day to end. I didn't think more of this. Is there something more to this?

6. Sorry dude, recalling exactly how I felt a week ago isn't easy for me right now, especially after the last 3 days I've had. I'll try to get back into the game.

[Garmr]

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

No offence Bji but I never played with sash before so this strikes me as odd you would say this. So I went and looked through sash's posts and he never actually said my refusal to hammer is inconstant with my other games ( If you did check my other finished games you would find i'm not consistent on that anyway and do how I feel at the time.)

So can you show me a post you mixed up with or got this impression from?

Sure it was this quote from post 257:

"3- We got to a L-1 for a very short time. Usually L-1 provokes a lot of discussions and idea, but it didn't last this time."

To clarify: I'm not suggesting he said that your removing the hammer was inconsistent with

your

previous games, that was never the point; it's that it's inconsistent with other games he's played previously, meaning that your behavior could be considered anomolous with his experience of the game in general; I don't know nor do I expect he knows whether or not it's consistent with your particular previous play nor whether that play in your previous games was town or scum at the time.

oh ok I misread that never mind then. I thought I was on to something like some sort out thread communication like a neighbourhood or scum chat since day chat is enabled.

[Sashaddin]

To clarify: I'm not suggesting he said that your removing the hammer was inconsistent with your previous games, that was never the point; it's that it's inconsistent with other games he's played previously, meaning that your behavior could be considered anomolous with his experience of the game in general; I don't know nor do I expect he knows whether or not it's consistent with your particular previous play nor whether that play in your previous games was town or scum at the time.

As I said, when someone says : "I don't want the day to end" I tend to believe them. Especially when it's good strategy, I've seen that a lot. This is why everyone but scum hates quickhammers.
As for garmr himself, I've never played with him but I like that he pulled off like he did. I won't meta the guy to know if it's consistent for him though.

[Persivul]

wrt to the first - i think it's a significant distinction, and i voted him *because* he wasn't around

And that's lazy at best.

wrt to the second - i mean, i can you say that about your slot till you repped in, clem for the most part, reaper for the most part too, even sash a little bit? like what's special about creature here for you?

I'm not sure why I'm having trouble getting this point through. There's a big difference between someone who just isn't posting, and someone who's posting a lot without really saying anything.

what did you think of raya?

I addressed this already.

[Persivul]

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

[Irrelephant11]

henlo
this game seems a mess
Someone who isn't bji, sell me on the creature lynch
curious about persivul and clemency votes, but I'll bet $5 neither wagon has strong reasons (none of them do, I bet)
Are we all just voting PoE?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll catch up and see what I get

[bji]

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

[Irrelephant11]

505 (In response to Garmr about my reads changing quickly): I wanted to see if Bji would take the opportunity to cast shade on you (someone he's shown willingness to dislike/scumread) when he'd be able to pass off responsibility for the read to me. iirc he didn't, which makes me feel marginally better about the slot.

I think reaper has been active lurking

Did you check his activity in other threads?

No but "hey I'm here, reading, too busy to respond" is active lurking regardless

I've read the full thread, but haven't done ISOs yet except for clem. At this point:

{garmr, irrelephant (neat name BTW)}
{bji, skitter, sashadin}
{reaper}
{clemency, creature*}

* - I'm biased against creature from past experience and I hate his playstyle, so take that FWIW.

VOTE: Clemency

Read his ISO. He has the highest post count in the game, but practically no original thought. Frequently when a person gets heat on them early in D1 and gets out of it, people have a difficult time getting back to examining that person. Seems to be the case here. Yes, his frustration felt genuine, but both town and scum can get frustrated in that situation, so that's NAI.

Thanks! I like my name too
Not sure how to came to townread me so strongly, though. Could you go into that?
As an aside I buy that Persivul might scumread Clemency for playstyle if he has scumread Creature for playstyle in the past
@Persivul if I told you I had a N0 inno on Clem and/or Creature would you vote Reaper?

i'm very open about the fact that i'm way too spammy and produce no real content, while it's not intentional i try to be transparent about it
i'm open to any pushes towards me though, i'd love to hear out your points and refute them as i see fit
i'm ready to actually play now thanks

yeah this is still town

sometimes the answer really is as simple as: it's just the lurkers

-etc-

This is a fair post and okay reason to vote Persivul but I don't think you're going to get very far by lightly pushing him here and saying it's all about activity
i.e. Move your vote, get louder, or case Persivul, take your pick

Spoiler: some Creature posts

rn I have you and Persivul as town and bji as scum

Oh, Clemency still town

I gotta reconsider Garmr, his play seems to buddy on me.

Hmm, why is Sashaddin town again?

I like all of these reads for the time they were posted
Can you go into your townread on skitter? She gathers townreads quite easily as both alignments

ok

[Garmr]

can maybe be town?

i'm feeling better about persivul compared to the previous inhabitants of his slot but not enough to remove the overall scummy feeling from the slot

i think garmr is pretty townie
i'm conflicted on bji; not entirely sure how to read him

i have sash as a townlean but like not super strongly or anything

I buy these reads
This sort of throwaway townread on Sashaddin sounds like the kind of throwaway townread I've seen you accidentally give scum, I think you should want Sashaddin to work for it more before you give the townread tbh

The scumteam is bji and Sashaddin with bji going "I'm pretty sure Sashaddin is town and I have quotes"?

I lol'd at this
And also agreed at this point in my catchup, though I am not so sure about bji atm

more coming...

[Irrelephant11]

creature why is sashaddin obvtown? The more they post the less I feel they're town

Sashaddin is the only player I absolutely will not lynch today.

Please towncase the slot, quotes and all
I even would prefer a wall from you in this case

Later. I am at work right now and don't have the time to wall, believe it or not ...

Well actually I don't have any wall to post on this. I was going to try to draw something convincing up from his ISO but after re-reading it a few times I don't think I can.

I just generally find him to be the least scummy player here

, his approach is consistent and rational. His posts seem to be in three general categories: factual observations about the game, casual votes based on those observations, and discussions of game mechanics. If he is scum, he's not trying very hard. He hasn't tried to cast any unjustified doubt on any slots that I saw, and I liked his evidence in scum casing other players.

The bolded feels unjustified and forced, given the sentence before it.
Please quote me one or more for each of the following categories:
-Factual observations about the game
-Casual votes based on those observations
-Discussions of game mechanics
-Evidence in scum casing other players

And then also explain why the first and third of those are town-indicative. Till then, this reads like you saying "Well he's scummy, and that's why I townread him"

hey look it's those things i wanted to say but was too dumb to formulate in a smart way
thanks bji
owe you one

I doubt anyone thought this was SvS before but I *really* don't think this is SvS

Post 550 checks out. I'm very conflicted on this slot.

This is the towniest post you've written thus far.
@Persivul do you admit that replacing out is slightly scum-indicative given the patterns of replace-outs on this site y/n?

I checked my 7 previous games, just going by slots there were 8/18 scum replaces and 21/60 town replaces. I didn't count multiple replaces to a slot, that was just too much work to count, but I don't recall seeing any particular disparity there between scum and town for that metric.

That's 44.4% scum slot replaces and 35.0% town slot replaces. So in my games, scum slots have replaced about 25% more often than town slots.

To be honest I expected an even larger difference before I did the math, but that's probably because I have replaced into three games and twice it was into a scum slot

, so I think that fact made me feel like scum slot replaces were even more likely than they are.

Exactly. People tend to make sweeping statements on such items as if they're fact, when really it's mostly confirmation bias from their own very limited experience.

This was a weird and misreppy way to summarize the Bji post here

79 - "I think this is a TvT interaction." Easy for scum to say as they know alignments.

130 - "To explain this a little more clearly I found the interaction to be likely TvT overall as an initial and not thought. It was nothing I felt confident about. It's too early to look at an interaction and settle on the players' alignments. The player I would find more likely to be scum in this interaction is clemency if I'm wrong about it being TvT." Oh fuck, I was way too confident earlier and we need mislynches, better dial back that read.

This is a fair reading of the situation. Agree with Garmr that your reads should probably lead you to be voting Creature here, though, not Clemency.

If I was scum, I would just go "hey guys join me on my X wagon" because then town will sheep with no thinking

lol

haha that's nonsense

i'm sheeping to get pressure off me

lolol

Spoiler: lololol

Did Reaper do anything lately?

Did Reaper do anything lately?

He killed a deer.

oh deer

Can you point out some good opinions?

I like: 62, 75, 140 in a special way. The whole series of 342 to 356 is what strikes me the most though, I don't think a scum would act and speak this way.
434 is... confusing.

I was basing myself on my Excel file because I remember next to nothing because of the pace of the game. I must admit Clemency hasn't produced much else than fluff since 356, which was some tome ago.

OK so this makes it very clear that you are simply emotionally reading Clem's posts to decide if he is town. I find that a very unsatisfying approach. Why are you so sure that Clem can't fake emotion?

This conflicts with your approach to Reaper in post 213 where you explicitly state that posts that are not scumhunting posts from Reaper cannot be used to get a read on him (Clemency gets to be read emotionally, but Reaper gets judged by his scum hunting?).

In post 225 you evaluate Raya on a different set of criteria - whether or not her arguments and counterpoints made sense to you.

While I admit that it is possible that you really are just applying what you think are the best evaluation criteria for each player separately, I do find it very odd that you give Clemency such a pass and don't really evaluate his play using the same or similar rules that you use for other players.

I am also still a bit miffed that you noted so clearly that Garmr's refusal to keep a hammer on me was inconsistent with your other games but you made no effort to explore that.

You have said some things in this game that had me convinced that you were a good guy, or at least that it was worth giving you one night to prove it, but rereading your posts in the light of your recent responses is just eroding my confidence away.

This is an okay post, and sorta relieves some of the Sashaddin/bji team paranoia I was having (though Bji seems smart enough to maybe catch on that it's time to fake some theater as scum. But whatever, that read is mostly unfounded based on this post alone)
@bji curious if you found Sashaddin's replies satisfying?

Hi Garmr and Persivul, join me on my Creature wagon. Then we can get a claim and see who is willing to hammer.

Yuck.

Wagons are good for town for several reasons, but forcing claims isn't one of them. That's a scum mindset.

This is unnecessary shade-casting. This game day has been long and slow, and a claim has to happen eventually

[Persivul]

Sorry, I haven't played in quite some time, I thought it was the expected outcome of an L-1 position.

I thought everyone was so hot for "information". Why doesn't a claim qualify?

The main info town is looking for is the person's reaction, who gets on the wagon, and whether a counter wagon forms.

Scum like to find roles.

[Garmr]

@irrelphant can you chuck me a quick reads list?

[Persivul]

Thanks! I like my name too
Not sure how to came to townread me so strongly, though. Could you go into that?

First, you don't know how strong that read is. Those are relative brackets - note no labels.

Second - no, I don't do PBPA on town reads unless they're being wagoned.

[Irrelephant11]

I didn't ask for PBPA, I just asked for *any* explanation for your read on me
It could be one word long tbh

Also the fact that I'm above all other players but Garmr means it's "relatively" pretty strong, even if you don't feel it that strongly
How strong is your read on me, though? I'll let you put words in your own mouth, if you object to mine

Garmr yeah readslist and maybe a new vote coming in a minute or two