Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[DoubtingThomas]

VOTE: shoshin

[DoubtingThomas]

volxen, i like your input so far. I think most of them makes sense. However, one thing I disagree with is that you think RC (who I now think is most likely town) being town implies that either me or clemency is scum.

RC's "play" makes sense as town, in hindsight, however, the way he treated your slot to attack me/clemency did not seem like a move based on good faith. RC was my strong scum at the time, hence my vote, and he's a strong scum players, so he needed all the pressure I could possibly give on him.

We can talk about how either my or clemency's push on RC was scummy, but you shouldn't tunnel and base your entire scum case on us based on RC's 'likely flip of town'

[volxen]

volxen, i like your input so far. I think most of them makes sense. However, one thing I disagree with is that you think RC (who I now think is most likely town) being town implies that either me or clemency is scum.

RC's "play" makes sense as town, in hindsight, however, the way he treated your slot to attack me/clemency did not seem like a move based on good faith. RC was my strong scum at the time, hence my vote, and he's a strong scum players, so he needed all the pressure I could possibly give on him.

We can talk about how either my or clemency's push on RC was scummy, but you shouldn't tunnel and base your entire scum case on us based on RC's 'likely flip of town'

My reasoning behind that is because RC is known to be an extremely strong player as

both alignments

. So it makes sense that scum would want to antagonize him and try to discredit him. You have to admit, you and Clemency both fought with him essentially all of day one, and you both voted for him most of the day. I'm not going to go so far as to say that makes you and Clemency both scum, but it just seems incredibly unlikely that the two people attacking RC almost non-stop on day one are both town, because it makes sense that scum would want to attack and discredit a high-profile player like RC who is known for having an incredibly strong town game.

Beyond all of that, I don't think that all three scum were on GrandWazoo's wagon, nor do I think that all three scum were off his wagon. Which means that either one scum was on his wagon and two scum were off his wagon or the other way around.

This was the final vote count at the end of the day:

• [*]“Mr. Host, Mr. Host, we have a problem!”
  [*]“What? Don’t you see I’m doing something?”
  [*]“One of the contestants has been eliminated!”
  [*]“WHAT?! Weren’t they supposed to be separated during commercial breaks? How the fuck did it happen?“
  [*]“I don’t know, no one was there at the time. The chickens must have somehow managed to squeeze their heads through the bars and pecked the other one to death.”
  [*]“What a fcking screw up, that’s so anticlimactic. The director is gonna be pissed. “
  [*]“I’m sorry, I’m so sorry.”

Vote Count 1.18

GrandWazoo: (6) Irrelephant11, scum reading, RadiantCowbells, Auro, Fuscosco, Shoshin HAMMER

RadiantCowbells:

(3) GrandWazoo, Clemency, DoubtingThomas

scum reading:

(1) volxen

Not Voting:

[Demonlord]

Majority has been reached.

GrandWazoo has been lynched, they were a

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie!

Break 1 starts now and ends in (expired on 2019-03-09 02:45:28).
Break-skip requests will not be accepted till demonlord’s slot is filled.

So the four living players that were not on GrandWazoo's mislynch wagon are you, Clemency, Vedith (Demonlord), and I. I know that I'm not scum and based on the way that day one played out the scenario where Vedith is scum and you and Clemency are both town seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Are you strongly townreading Clemency DT? If so, why?

[ejjinami]

Vote Count 2.3

Shoshin:

(2) Alonzo, DoubtingThomas

Irrelephant11:

(1) volxen

Volxen:

(0)

Not Voting:

Clemency, Irrelephant11, Vedith, Auro, Fuscosco, Shoshin, scum reading

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2019-03-19 05:19:27)

[volxen]

@clemency, RC has done this as scum before, tho? Do you remember which game?

He's claiming it happened before and that he was in said game(s) with RC, but he's not willing to link to these games because it would supposedly reveal who his alt is. I'm not even sure if that is really legitimate.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

[DoubtingThomas]

yeah, I don't think I would be voting volxen today.

Volxen, did you say why you were not posting much d1?

[volxen]

yeah, I don't think I would be voting volxen today.

Volxen, did you say why you were not posting much d1?

No, I didn't say anything about why I didn't post that much on day one. Day one moved extremely fast, and a lot of it was RC arguing with other people, and it was very difficult for me to keep up because there was a lot of noise. I also didn't have any scumreads that I felt very certain about. It's much easier for me to keep up with the game and "town it up" when the game isn't moving at lightning speed. There's also more information for me to analyze and work with at this point in the game as well.

[volxen]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

It's one of the TWTBAW reads. Hardly scums will have enough balls to double down on stuff like that. That's a part of my reason for townreading him.

Have seen too many towns play "illogically"

[Alonzo]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

Hi Doughboy

[DoubtingThomas]

what does doughboy mean

[Alonzo]

Nvm.

I think you were a little harsh on the cowbells.

Kinda townread it tho

[volxen]

@DoubtingThomas, why is Irrelephant one of your strongest townreads? And is Auro still one of your top townreads? If so, why?

[volxen]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

It's one of the TWTBAW reads. Hardly scums will have enough balls to double down on stuff like that. That's a part of my reason for townreading him.

Have seen too many towns play "illogically"

I don't really put a lot of stock into "too wolfy to be a wolf", because that just allows people to get away with open wolfing by incorporating it into their meta. It is wolfy for Clemency to attack me and try to discredit me for saying that Alonzo/RadiantCowbells is locktown, and that kind of play doesn't at all go against his scum meta.

[volxen]

Nvm.

I think you were a little harsh on the cowbells.

Kinda townread it tho

What are your thoughts on Clemency? He attacked and tried to discredit RadiantCowbells a lot on day one as well.

[DoubtingThomas]

Irrelephant had a lot of posts that I felt like he was trying to relax the thread from going into turmoil when me/RC/shoshin were fighting. When he could have exploited the chaos, he focused a lot on trying to form town blocs which is townie. and her constant questioning all seemed townie and i can see where her reads come from. if you want, i can probably quote specific posts, i am just trying to do actual work atm

Irrel's post about himself realizing 'he's not good at reading and often sheeps people like shoshin' felt pretty genuine, and it looked like he was trying to really determine shoshin's alignment to see if they can sheep them or not. i pointed it out, and they didnt' feel "embarassed" by the approach which i also gave town credit for

auro's reaction to my scum case on you felt townie at the time, which was funny because it was relative to RC who also had a similar reaction to it. I thought RC was highly likely scum at the time and didn't think auro, if he is team with RC, would buddy up that obviously in the thread. i also don't see too much scum agenda installed in his posting. he is not trying to 'mislynch' anyone in bad faith as far as i can tell.

i prob should revisit both, especially auro, whom I haven't paid too much attention bc of RC/shoshin/etc, but yeah.

[DoubtingThomas]

I don't have much respect for RC's town game, so no I don't think I would be pushing RC like that as scum wanting to 'antagonize' a strong town player, because I don't really believe RC is that strong of a town player.

I am not strongly town reading clemency, but i have been lightly town reading him, I also don't think him pushing RC makes him scum, as I am a town who has done the same thing. Furthermore, him fighting your "RC is locktown" statement, imo, felt like a townie dedicated to his previous stance on RC

But wouldn't it be "townier" for Clemency to

re-evaluate

his read on Alonzo/RadiantCowbells in light of the way in which he replaced out, rather than continue to maintain his scumread of that slot from day one? Objectively, Alonzo should be treated as locktown because that slot being scum simply doesn't make sense anymore. You seem to have *somewhat* re-evaluated your read of this slot, but as soon as I came out and called Alonzo/RadiantCowbells locktown Clemency attacked me for it and tried to discredit me:

alonzo's not locktown are you daft

i've

been

in games where rc replaces out as scum like this

as scum with him, that is

It's one of the TWTBAW reads. Hardly scums will have enough balls to double down on stuff like that. That's a part of my reason for townreading him.

Have seen too many towns play "illogically"

I don't really put a lot of stock into "too wolfy to be a wolf", because that just allows people to get away with open wolfing by incorporating it into their meta. It is wolfy for Clemency to attack me and try to discredit me for saying that Alonzo/RadiantCowbells is locktown, and that kind of play doesn't at all go against his scum meta.

Yeah, I am cautious about clearing people based strictly on twtbaw reads. However, with the right reading of the timing/tone of the post/situation of the thread, i've had great successes. do you think he has been wolfy in his pushes of RC yesterday or outside of discrediting you? because you are not the only person that's saying RC is likely to be town, and to be going against a general town consensus is a different thing than just discrediting you

[Alonzo]

I'd be dtl clem tomorrow...

[DoubtingThomas]

dtf

[Auro]

Volxen is probtown.

Volxen, I think your conclusion that I could be scum has some faults.

Firstly, it conflicts with my stated positions throughout the game (where I resign to a null on Shoshin after pushing her initially, deciding on sorting her later) - my entrance to this day also has me towncasing you and arguing with someone who voted you (SR). And my stated positions are also sub-optimal for scum me.
Secondly, trying to get rid of you as scum is arguably far more sub-optimal strategy for me to take as opposed to buddying you - the former causes me to get scumread on your mislynch, while the latter doesn't hurt me even if you scumread me, since others townread me strong enough for that.
Third, it is plainly obvious to me that you can obv-town it up; in what universe do you expect scum!Auro to nominate you *without* the expectation that you would town it up?
Fourth, and this is important - why do you assume Shoshin was a universal townread? Plenty of slots pushed her in D1 if I recall correctly. This alone should disprove the idea that scum selected nominees specifically to disprove you.
Fifth, even going with that line of thought - one doesn't need extensive meta-knowledge to want to get rid of you. *Multiple times*, and I can quote, you stated that you would be "obvtown" and "unlynchable" later in the game. I explicitly defended you by saying we don't lynch you till you've had an opportunity to post more and town yourself up.

For scum!Auro, this is a bad set of nominations if all town. Scum!Auro would expect town!Volxen to obvtown it within the next 7 days; and then has to lynch between Irrelephant and Shoshin - both townreading him strongly.

[Auro]

Also, the competing hypothesis for why you were nominated, if Shoshin is town:

I think you were in the same tier as {DemonLord, Fuscosco, Clemency, DoubtingThomas} as far as scum's concerned. Nominating three extremely towny slots like {RC, Irre, Auro} gets rid of one of them, sure, but also serves to confirm the other two - so it's a smart move to replace one of the obvtown slots with a scummy-looking slot and play up the WIFOM. Which is good WIFOM, as seen in early D2 in this thread - multiple people (including me) believed you were town as scum!you would never gladiate with stronger players.

Between {Volxen, Demon, Fus, Clem, DT} you're the slot that is potentially most bothersome for scum if they picked up on your "unlynchable late stage" assertion, making you a decent pick if they were going for {2 townie, 1 scummy} nomination pick. However, I don't feel that Shoshin was universally townie - I think it's probable that scum viewed her as a threat.

Which does lend credence to the idea of Irre being scum - being highly townread makes it a really good move to nominate yourself along with a couple of other "not so town" slots: If the intent was to remove obvtown, RC would have definitely been nominated. Irre being the only very townread slot of the three at time of nominations is concerning.

[Auro]

Scum Irrelephant nominates himself maybe 75% of the time because he knows getting nominated puts him closer to locktown. Yes, it's WIFOM. It's also how Irrelephant thinks. It's similar to how RC thinks in some respects. That said, Irrel wouldn't nominate himself with two obvious townies (e.g. Auro/RC/Irrelephant leads to Irrelephant's death). He nominates with threats who look scummier than him. Volx is a strong choice because he's been so absent from the game that he's easily mislynchable, plus there's always a risk of Volx becoming a threat later in the game. I'm a strong choice because I'm unfairly tunneled by a few players, RC randomly imploded by calling me scum, so if there's ever a chance to get me mislynched, this is it. I'm also by far Irrelephant's strongest threat so scum Irrelephant definitely knows I need to be mislynched if he's going to win this game.

Reading Shoshin's case now and this is *exactly* what I was thinking, and echoed in the previous post.

[Auro]

That said, there's a strong likelihood that scum didn't nominate any scum. I'm trying to find scum among townies so obviously the "case" on either Irrel/Volx will look weaker than normal. You need to be thinking about who the scum would be among this group if there's scum. I know it's not me. I know that Irrel's reads feel fake (especially that read on Fusco). I know that scum Irrelephant wants to keep people who will defend him alive (i.e .you), so that would explain why you weren't nominated. These things point to scum Irrel relative to Volx. I also think scum Volx nominates you because he knows you're a threat to him, in the same way that I'm a threat to Irrel.

If the choice comes to {Irre, Volxen} now I'd vote Irre. Volxen's posts in the last few pages almost nearly always come from town!him; scum!Volxen never self-nominates himself, while I can see Irre easily doing that.

Shoshin, can you link to some good scumgames of Irre's, which you think has similar patterns of behaviour to this game?

[Auro]

What are your thoughts on Clemency? He attacked and tried to discredit RadiantCowbells a lot on day one as well.

We both know town!Clemency is capable of bad tunnels - remember Lovers and Losers?
What makes it likelier Clem is scum for the RC push?