Mini Normal 2080 ft. My Cats [Game Over]

[nomnomnom]

Now it makes a shit ton of sense why you specifically would scumread me for making a play this outrageous this game hahahaha

[Krazy]

Eh water under the bridge *hug*

[nomnomnom]

*hug*
thank you
You'll see in the PT that you greatly scared me

[pisskop]

I am going to use this every time you spout some BS about setup and speculation.

[Shoshin]

If that's any consolation the PT is a wild ride lmao

also @Shoshin you probably should never fakeclaim like this as town ever again. I think you gave me way too much room to play with

I disagree. Scum were in a really rough spot after N1, and if you had lost this game, you would be praising me for wasting your 1-shot strongman. Especially if the town combo of doctor & role cop had steamrolled the scum, which is what most reasonable observers would predict after the events of N1.

Scum were lucky in that a perfect storm of town failures followed N1. For starters, your behavior around my claim made it obvious you were scum when a) you didn't die, b) you didn't claim cop, and c) Nero was a role cop (i.e. town's main investigative role). Nero's failure to realize this immediately after my flip is incomprehensible, and one of the main reasons that town lost.

The other issue was Dunn's kill on the doctor. If doctor stays alive, this game looks very different from scum's perspective. I have trouble seeing scum win this when there's an uncontested doctor & role cop in the game, as well as an extra mislynch available.

This also doesn't mention a bunch of other mistakes the town made, none of which had anything to do with your play around my claim. My only regret about the claim is that I let myself die. An argument could be made that staying alive would have been more benefit to the town than letting town's PRs die.

[nomnomnom]

We knew teacher was doc very early on. Urap caught a very early crumb. We let the slot live because teacher was a mislynch in a world where people were buying Urap/teacher as a scumteam.

I still definitely think that in the context of this game, your fakeclaim gave me a lot of room to work with. How Nero approached my slot was weird (and you'll see in the PT that I was shocked when he claimed invest lol), but it still gave me a lot of room to work with to do things. Also considering that your plan was to claim a fake guilty on Urap, then it was absolutely right to kill you because that would have spelled my demise right on the spot because I was representing cop on the table and this is where the castle of cards starts falling for me if you do this. That, and despite having a bad table image at that point and a lot of people thinking you're fake claiming, you still had a good grasp on the game and I felt that you with people like Skitter had the power to solve this game eventually because of what you did. So we shot there.

We used the strongman because we thought teacher was heavily signalling to go there. There was a doc crumb and he was implying that this is where he would go. Discovering he did otherwise was honestly shocking lol.

I just think that maybe you probably would have won this game as a VT claim that solved the game for town. Your play polarized your spot and you forced the scumteam to take action on you. There's a lot of subtelty around what we did. It's not just your claim, and how I played around your claim. The scum PT is long for a reason

[Shoshin]

I disagree that my claim helped you in the context of the game. I haven't seen the scum PT so I don't know your plans, but my sense about faking cop on D1 is that it forces a response from scum -- accept the claim, or deny it -- and in that sense it's a limiting & testing move against scum who aren't under suspicion yet.

In context, I thought you played very well in the early parts of D1 before my claim. You were solidly town. I misread you, as did others, and if you hadn't responded to my claim as you had, I think you would have been in a strong position to win the game, a stronger position than you actually were afterwards.

Your specific response -- pretend to be the town cop -- made your long-term survival unlikely: From the perspective of town's role cop, you were obvscum by D2 at the latest, and from the perspective of other townies, you were obvscum by D3 or D4, because obvious town cops who are strongly townread don't live that long, especially after town's doctor dies.

And if Dunn doesn't shoot Teacher, how do you explain being alive on D5? Yes, you could spin all sorts of narratives but they're all weak & suspect.

Is there some special benefit to your behavior around the claim that makes all the risk worthwhile? I don't see it past N1. But maybe I'm wrong, I'll keep my mind open until I see the scum PT. I currently believe you lucked out with a few things, Dunn shooting teacher & Nero's incomprehensible play, among others.

As for my death, I agree that it's more useful to have me alive than dead, and I've won other games by playing roles in counter-intuitive ways that keep me alive when the usual move is sacrificing (e.g. not using bodyguard on confirmed townies). But I also like to try out new tactics, and I think the overall effect of faking cop on D1 is pro-town. This game confirms that, even if it resulted in a loss. It's an especially good way for weaker players with a vanilla role to do some real damage to the scum.

[nomnomnom]

You're mostly correct on a few things. I definitely expected to go down a few times this game. I was going to come forward with a roleblock explanation eventually but Nero's claim opened the way for an explanation of why I would be left alive in the long run, because a scum rolecop would see my role and say they're not very much at risk. That's what I banked on, honestly, and that's why I specifically claimed joat with a gs and tracker shot. There are worlds where people do not buy my claim at all and I go down, but it worked, so yeah.

Is there some special benefit to your behavior around the claim that makes all the risk worthwhile? I don't see it past N1.

Honestly? It was just intuition. I saw the playerlist and I saw a few people like Nero that would probably think I make my role really obvious because of how I handled the large with him. When you said you knew me from undertale, I also knew I could abuse this angle. In other playerlists, with people that know that my scumrange is way more wide, maybe I would have played a lot more conservatively. But here? I let myself go all out. I can't explain it anyway

[nomnomnom]

Let's just say that there were town inaccuracies this game and that the scumteam abused them. The fact that teacher was scumread was a massive advantage for us. The fact that nero did not check cinn n1 and believed my claim was a massive advantage for us.

[nomnomnom]

But yeah. I guess it's just a matter of perspective. You come accross to me as a good solver. I think it would benefit you to not draw a target on your back, and to instead in such a way to be able to solve more games as town. That's what I think

[Shoshin]

Nero's play was incomprehensible across the board. You basically forced a 1v1 with town's investigative PR, and Nero decided not to show up.

[skitter30]

Shoshin i disagree that fake-claiming cop there was a good idea

[Shoshin]

What's your reason, Skitter? I had complete faith in you to win this game without me, btw.

[nomnomnom]

I mostly disagree, aside from point of view around fake claiming as town, because Shoshin is setting herself up as a weak player that benefits town if she dies, which I believe is a mistake when you show the qualities of a good solver. I think you would simply benefit for a more straightforward game where you allow yourself to live longer. If you live longer than d1 here, you could probably have pinned us 3. This is way more important than saving power roles imo. If you claimed VT and that people disengaged on you, the scumteam here would have been met with a choice of trying to aim for a PR, or shoot for a player that has the ability to solve this game (skitter, DP, and you). Even if the scumteam was to believe your claim, you basically remove your vote and your voice from this game, which, as a VT, is honestly very devastating if you have a chance at solving the game.

That's what I believe anyway. I believe you're a good player and that you're better than doing things like this. You're setting yourself up for failure imo.

[skitter30]

Basically because:

1. You're more valuable to town being alive on day2 as a vt than dying n1 as a fake-cop

2. It induced too much chaos in the gamestate, giving scum *quite* a lot of leeway. There are many universes where you get lynched here despite claiming cop, esp. if i wasnt here to defend you. It basically threw the whole game off track and gave scum room to manipulate the game to their benefit while town was distracted by the fake-claim stuff - this is ehat nom accused me of doing, which is still a ridiculous accusation btw

3. If you don't die (say teacher had saved you), you'd either eventually need to come clean about the claim (and that would probably have put you in hot water again), or continue lying (and fucking with people's ability to try to utilize setup spec; i really, really hate when people lie in a way that could impact this)

[Firebringer]

naah shoshin sux

[nomnomnom]

rude

[Firebringer]

aren't we all

[Shoshin]

I mostly disagree, aside from point of view around fake claiming as town, because Shoshin is setting herself up as a weak player that benefits town if she dies, which I believe is a mistake when you show the qualities of a good solver. I think you would simply benefit for a more straightforward game where you allow yourself to live longer. If you live longer than d1 here, you could probably have pinned us 3. This is way more important than saving power roles imo. If you claimed VT and that people disengaged on you, the scumteam here would have been met with a choice of trying to aim for a PR, or shoot for a player that has the ability to solve this game (skitter, DP, and you). Even if the scumteam was to believe your claim, you basically remove your vote and your voice from this game, which, as a VT, is honestly very devastating if you have a chance at solving the game.

That's what I believe anyway. I believe you're a good player and that you're better than doing things like this. You're setting yourself up for failure imo.

I guess this depends on what you mean by "good" or "bad" play. I agree 100% that it's better for me to live than die. I also agree that PRs aren't as helpful as strong players. But that isn't the same thing as saying that faking cop was pro-scum.

For starters, claiming VT doesn't guarantee that I live. If you know I'm going to solve the game by D2 (and that's a reasonable assumption based on my record), you kill me on N1 regardless of my claim. The claim simply encouraged you to use more resources to get rid of me, including the 1-shot strongman.

Either way, a vanilla townie soaking up scum's 1-shot strongman on N1 is usually considered a good result for town. It's better than scum shooting a strong player PR, which could have been Skitter, for example.

[nomnomnom]

this is ehat nom accused me of doing, which is still a ridiculous accusation btw

Sorry.
I got pocketed by Nero.

[skitter30]

Eh well at least i got {one scum in nero/nom} right, even if i was wrong on which it was

[Shoshin]

Basically because:

1. You're more valuable to town being alive on day2 as a vt than dying n1 as a fake-cop

2. It induced too much chaos in the gamestate, giving scum *quite* a lot of leeway. There are many universes where you get lynched here despite claiming cop, esp. if i wasnt here to defend you. It basically threw the whole game off track and gave scum room to manipulate the game to their benefit while town was distracted by the fake-claim stuff - this is ehat nom accused me of doing, which is still a ridiculous accusation btw

3. If you don't die (say teacher had saved you), you'd either eventually need to come clean about the claim (and that would probably have put you in hot water again), or continue lying (and fucking with people's ability to try to utilize setup spec; i really, really hate when people lie in a way that could impact this)

1. I agree. Claiming VT doesn't guarantee I survive N1.

2. I disagree that it gave scum leeway. I thought it made it much easier to spot them, especially after my flip. Even you had the game mostly solved by the end & you just needed one more day phase, which you would have had if Dunn hadn't shot Teacher.

3. I would have faked a guilty on U2, but probably come clean on D3. I don't think it would have messed anything up, except to expose Nom as obvscum.

Do you think faking cop to soak a 1-shot strongman would have been a bad strategy for someone like Salad?

[Shoshin]

naah shoshin sux

I'm sorry you feel this way.

[skitter30]

Do you think faking cop to soak a 1-shot strongman would have been a bad strategy for someone like Salad?

Not necessarily

It also would not have necessarily been believed, and he could well have gotten lynched through it

I also dont know if you die n1 if you dont claim cop

[nomnomnom]

It would have been a way harder decision.
We had DP in mind a lot too. I think a VT claim would have resulted in DP dying n1.