Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[jjh927]

Not arguing against the other shit is almost causing me pain but I'd much rather see what other people do

[EspressoPatronum]

So yeah, on the PT shit:

Spoiler:

1. You're accusing me of lying about stuff in the PT BEFORE deb actually died. This is actually moronic and you should be able to understand that
2.This should probably indicate to you that me and deb were posting in the pt and on good terms:

Wait there absolutely is something

We set up a means to talk to each other after the PT closed

If we said eels in a post, then the 5th word in every post after that would form a message. The message stops when a post contains the word nana

Deb said hello to me at eod because he could

Leave him alone he is precious like Nana's back hair

We have shaved it as she began to have back problems from the length and weight of the hair.

I trust that you have woven the hair into a fine garment for Nana, yes?

A waste of such a resource would be worthy of the merciless three shoe beating.

She decided to have it made into a nice sweater for one of her favorite pet eels.

You could even say hello if you were to come with me to the old country.

The burden of hospitality is never too great for Nana.

3: I can reveal what deb's information is if it would help because mastina can confirm it but it won't help at all

Wow, this is an amazing use of the PT! It's a pity DEB died before you guys could actually use it.

TD and I didn't use our PT very well, it seems.

[Chemist1422]

mfw I don’t even get a PT

[EspressoPatronum]

mfw I don’t even get a PT

RIP.

Fwiw we don't have them anymore.

[jjh927]

mfw I don’t even get a PT

You should probably pm the mod regarding access to the closed pt you should have had with someone

If it has something in it, even if the conversation is one-sided it's stuff your slot should have

[eth0s]

I like where menalque is coming from in trying to shine light on a new perspective in a game that generally has the same 4-5 people in a lynch bucket for the day. I think some of his points are valid and could mean something, but a lot of it seems like speculation that is too dangerous to go off of. I'm not in a great mental state to analyze it much better than that and I will need to reread it in a couple of hours to really deconstruct it but I just wanted to say at first glance it doesn't really persuade me to do anything but I want to reread it vs a jjh ISO and confirm that later today.

[TiphaineDeath]

vla this weekend glhf.

[Menalque]

additional note: look at the way the game state has developed, because it further supports what I'm saying.

while I was pushing EP, there was limited activity, and it was geared towards moving the focus from EP to elsewhere (in this case TL). then the gamestate was relatively active, wagon building, etc, up to the point where TL was the main lynch candidate. then activity dies off again, and despite me posting a big fuck off post, has stayed dead as people haven't been engaging with that.

so let's think about what scum want. if I was pushing a mislynch as hard as I was EP, scum would reasonably just sheep it and let me take the heat after a townflip. if I was pushing scum!EP that hard, then we would expect scum to be active in the game, trying to move the lynch away, which is what happened. then, scum, once the lynch is looking more secure on a townie, ease off to let it be carried through as deadline approaches by the apathy caused by not being active in main thread. again, I think that's what we were seeing with TL!wagon (who, yes, I now think is more likely town by PoE). then when efforts are made to reinvigorate the game state, they choose not to engage (see: the lack of reaction to my jjh case) to try and keep the game dead and apathetic

[jjh927]

That's a pretty weird way of looking at things considering my TL push was primarily to drum up activity

[jjh927]

That was good posting day

[jjh927]

I'll give you a choice; I'll either respond to your case now or we can wait for other people to actually look at it

I don't really have a preference any more since my desire to say things has been increasing but it'd be nice to be able to place people a bit better based on responses

[Menalque]

Go ahead and respond

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena your gamestate analysis to prove scum!EP is a fantastic example of confirmation bias. Assuming town!Mena, I'd like you to reread that post when I flip town + remember the dangers of tunneling. If you're scum, carry on doing your thing.

[TemporalLich]

I really think Menalque's case in 995 is compelling.

His hard pushing seems to be set up in a way as to line up mislynches.

And 585 does pretty much fall in the face of jjh still trying to push a TL lynch (see 880), so yeah something definitely isn't clicking into place.

VOTE: jjh927

[TemporalLich]

@Mena your gamestate analysis to prove scum!EP is a fantastic example of confirmation bias. Assuming town!Mena, I'd like you to reread that post when I flip town + remember the dangers of tunneling. If you're scum, carry on doing your thing.

this only proves Menalque's point...

[EspressoPatronum]

@Mena your gamestate analysis to prove scum!EP is a fantastic example of confirmation bias. Assuming town!Mena, I'd like you to reread that post when I flip town + remember the dangers of tunneling. If you're scum, carry on doing your thing.

this only proves Menalque's point...

How so?

[Elbirn]

@mena jjh is my tinfoil hat scumread and I want to play a game of cat and mouse with him pretending to townread him while hoping that he spews his buddies and his blatant white knighting of me keeps me from getting mislynched due to my continued lack of giving a fuck, shhhhh bb *pets face*

[Elbirn]

Like it's literally elements/mastina/jjh but I have no basis for this I'm just a genius unless I'm wrong

[Elements]

@mena jjh is my tinfoil hat scumread and I want to play a game of cat and mouse with him pretending to townread him while hoping that he spews his buddies and his blatant white knighting of me keeps me from getting mislynched due to my continued lack of giving a fuck, shhhhh bb *pets face*

Then what's the point of this post

[Elements]

VOTE: Elbirn

[Elbirn]

VOTE: Elbirn

Go away

[Elbirn]

VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: jjh

I reread mena's case and I'm inclined to agree, jjh does a good job of crafting narratives about other players but they're logically inconsistent. See also him forgetting about his saying that ep and tl are TvT and then mere hours later casing TL

I'll admit that I didn't read Mena's case in it's entirety before now, as I assumed most of it would be drawing on a jjh/EP pairing to prove the case (which I know is false). The case actually brings up good points about jjh + it stands on its own without the scum!EP assumption.

I remember reading jjh's insistence on scum!Korina at twilight + thinking that was a bit weird, but I forgot about it shortly after.

VOTE: jjh

[EspressoPatronum]

That's L-2 btw.

[jjh927]

EP/jjh scum

eth0s heavy post

for instance, he says that he's waiting for eth0s' heavy post (459), but after that comes does he engage with it? no, he continues hard pushing kori!scum rather than talking about whether kori is plausible town or not (464465). He takes the time to engage with the post, but only

after

day has ended and we're in twilight, in 537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post. but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion? trying to look like you're involved in the process of sorting after the possibility of doing so has collapsed is scummy, and it's searching for town points while not actually being towny.

I said that because it had been like 2 hours since eth0s said he was making a heavy post. Those posts you link there, 464 and 465, are my immediate response to said post. I later engage with the post in detail simply because eth0s seemed upset with the amount of time I had given it.

A specific thing in your argument here really stands out as well- "trying to distance himself fro the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post." - Huh? Are you reading what you're typing? I don't understand what you think scum!me would be trying to achieve here, or how you think it would be achieved, or literally anything there.

interactions with me and twilight "kori is still scum" behaviour

then there's also his weird interactions with me, and his attitude of kori!scum is still a thing despite kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie. I think this is scum doubling down so that they can soak some of the heat for the mislynch they pushed by saying "no, look, I was SO CONVINCED he was scum, look how I still thought so in twilight even after he was dead and saying he was town!!!!" whereas I think the genuinely towny thing to do there is acknowledge you could have been wrong, and engage with the person to try and get reads/takes on the game that could help town for the next day, even if those reads might be that you're scum for making the push.

Look at my recent newbie (1949) where I self-hammered as town on D2. I was convinced teacher was scum, and he was the same on me. But there was still engagement after the hammer despite irritation where we worked together on the off chance that we were both town to try and provide town with an optimal state for the next day given the self-hammer mistake.

Nah I thought Korina was scum and honestly there's a part of me that still thinks you might be scum just for showing up after the hammer to chastise the shit out of me specifically for it
I wanted you to actually explain why you thought he was town, and you seemed to only think he was town as a default stance because he was posting in twilight

attempts to manipulate framing

I think there's also misreps in jjh's twilight posts, or if not exactly misreps, at least particular and odd framing: let's look at 556. "I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now". This is shading (1) presenting anyone who was doubtful as to kori!scum as someone behaving delusionally. Note, this is not the same as saying, "surely you admit kori has good odds of being scum?" which I would have totally agreed with prior to self-hammer and conf!town status. But it's making it look like the reads of anyone who was doubtful are less valuable, and it presents jjh as having followed the only logical course of action by pushing kori hard. When actually, another very reasonable course of action was to just approach the slot with a lot of scepticism and talk it out among the rest of the town during the rest of D1. The speed and severity of the push reads to me as someone who wanted to get Korina done and end day quickly, but that wasn't necessary from a town pov. kori, after changing his role claim, was always going to be a viable D1 lynch. Why doesn't town spend the rest of the day talking out whether or not there are solutions (a la eth0s) or if the scummy outweighs the potential positive utility?

plus there's 558 which is another attempt to devalue Kori's reads despite being the only person we knew would be conf!town at the time. this is important for scum!jjh because he was Kori's strongest SR on death. I don't think town cares so much about devaluing conf!town's reads. I think town chooses to keep scum hunting and to town case themself if needed should the conf!town's reads be followed. the pre-emptive shading and dismissal of the reads (plus the fact that I know one read is good, not that I expect you to be persuaded by this) is scum!motivated, not town!motivated.

I wanted to see someone argue that Korina was town. Nobody did. No sane person could make that argument and I stand by it.

I had evidence Korina's reads were shit in that I know I am town, and furthermore you're skipping over the part where I criticise Korina's scumhunting technique. There are multiple reasons why I put 0 stock in Korina's reads and they have been explained.
Reads aren't just magical things that form that town get. The only thing worth putting stock in is REASONING, and Korina's reasoning was the direct opposite of what is logical, thus I was opposed to the idea of people sheeping them and the idea of putting stock into them seems nonsensical to the point of increasing the likelihood of being scum.

On the speed of the push- fuck that. That wasn't me who self-hammered. Wasn't even me who brought it close. I pushed down hard on the lie, but you're absolutely talking shit here if you think I'm responsible for the quicklynch. You would do well to look at the actual wagon, although Korina was the most at fault for the day ending early by a wide margin. I wanted other people to react to the push. I feel like what you're doing here in this point is FAR beyond what you are accusing me of- "attempts to manipulate framing."

progression in his interaction with me, SoaS most likely to be a NK from jjh

I also think jjh's approach to my slot was weird there. He starts off very hostile "I thought you were meant to be good" but rapidly changes to a conciliatory tone "engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town". And just now, I found something pretty damning. He says in 570 that, in regard to my point about having healthy scepticism regarding kori slot and going back and forth, that he did go back on it at one point (569) and that "SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT" (570). But SoaS never does this. The game moves on, and he doesn't comment on the point. Now, as has been mentioned by me and by jjh, SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS. He can take his voice for himself. And if he didn't in fact do that in the PT, then it stops SoaS from ever pointing that out in the future if his mention of this gets spotted (like I just did).

this also fits with scum!jjh and scum!EP. killing SoaS lets jjh provide additional cover for EP by claiming that deb was TRing him when he died. there's no indication I see of that in the main thread, so all we have to go on is jjh's word that it happened in the PT. I don't really see a good reason to believe that.

I have already argued against this. You call it "pretty damning" when it's frankly a ridiculous point to bring up and makes no logical sense.

inconsistent approach to TL from day-to-day

then look at fuckin 585 "My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw". if this is town!jjh, surely he has a lot more scepticism about TL today? scepticism that was also lacking in his engagement with kori. but he doesn't, he hops onto someone he had a SR on that was "mostly" conditional on something that wasn't true, and he does that instead of engaging with me on EP!scum but instead to draw attention away from EP!scum.

The key takeaway is that, yes, jjh has been doing stuff. But that 'stuff' has been wildly inconsistent with a town mindset and approach to the game.

It did mostly hinge on Korina!scum at the time. It was a fairly lazy scumread; if Korina was scum, TL was absolutely scum. I did not need to do more thinking. Then, Korina flipped town and I did some more thinking, alongside asking deb about reads. I do have more scepticism on TL, yeah. I think you might want to reread some shit.

If you want attention back on EP, let's talk about that vote just there