Newbie 1963 - Game Over

[JacksonVirgo]

Nevermin, they did it with Gyro too. Eh don't know

[JacksonVirgo]

DANG I missed another yoink moment

[the worst]

she did the same for gyro and i

[Uncrowned]

@TheWorst I don't think you misrepresented me, a lot of the stuff was just playstyle/mentality that I wouldn't expect you to be able to read from me, as we've never played together before. I can see your views. There's just a couple of things I'll touch on:

The post Gardenia voted me randomly I disregarded because I liked the rest of her Post 150, Marionette didn't receive the same treatment from me due to her vote coming from nowhere and not being followed up at all. I think circumstance needs to be taken into account there.

You're correct, I didn't spot the Teacher/FF Mason connection, I just legitimately felt they were a TvT since by that point, they had each made at least a post or two that I liked the logic behind.

I couldn't identify why other people were giving Gardenia TLs, which is why I asked teacher.

Everything else is either stuff I've already spoken about, or just personal playstyle.

[Uncrowned]

Also, Gardenia's readlist there was the same one I was referring to when JV was calling my list mediocre. I'm not sure why he referenced mine and tried to use it against me when I feel like Gardenia's was of similar quality, seemed weird to me that they would ignore that and go straight for mine.

[JacksonVirgo]

Responses in green

Spoiler: location: inside of duck's head; subject: uncrowned part 1

I think a no lynch is a bad idea, I'd rather get as much info as we can out of the early stage of the game.

I'm putting my vote on someone who hasn't posted yet.

VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

Also you're a JoJo character so you're already intimidating me, you stud you.

there's a few factors here which make me explicitly not-townread this rvs:
- the nolynch commentary is surface level NAI but also side-steps an invisible 'call to action'. gard did something incorrect at a policy level but not necessarily alignment indicative; rvs is a good opportunity to assign an asinine motivation to such things (e.g. "she is scum because she refuses to alienate people! *vote*" or "i think she's town because scum would try to go with the flow"
- there IS a vote here which is an opportunity to advance the gamestate but it's thrown down without wariness of the gamestate. the vote is also overqualified (i.e. "I'm putting my vote on someone who hasn't posted yet.") and comes with a cute/flirty comment. this kinda equal probability comes from someone who is just cute and flirty or a guilty conscience (a kind of unconscious apology for voting there)

never been great at finding scum in rvs but i'm >rand finding town in rvs
just kinda... flat-to-nullscum on the opener

This might have been my personal bias but I really dislike anybody who votes people just because they're not active, like they didn't vote up MedialCoke (my pred) when they literally have one post in their ISO. It might be because they're new to FM and usually silent people in their mafia games are usually scum and since this is a different type of game it could be their way of just jumping in? But I am not sure, that's just speculation with no real information backing it.

53 i don't like rqs (don't have much experience with it, normally i'm like "...mm ok?" and haven't really noticed any patterns with how scum/town answer certain things)
interesting takeaway is uncr being a ~kinda~ semi organised player i guess

I am assuming that RQS is random questions, and personally I don't see how you can base reads off that outside of figuring out how they work perhaps and then base your reads knowing how they are mentally? Probably worded that like a garbage truck but I assume you can infer what I am saying. Semi-organised could be from the social deduction games they've played earlier or outside help or neither, again you can't really base any reads off of this stuff I feel.

1: Fish's playstyle is interesting to me, aggressive town is something seen often, but by drawing attention to himself he could be letting his teammate fly under the radar (assuming he has one).

a part of me kinda likes the paranoid waffling here but don't think it's strongly AI

2: Read back a few pages. Teacher, you said you got a townlean from Gardenia. Why?

this makes me want to check uncrowned's gard/eth0s slot trajectory; did a ctrl+f and there's a lot of mentions. kinda might be noteworthy that he talks a lot about gard when she's a hot subject but not when people aren't talking about her. but then he talks quite a lot about eth0s so i don't think this is enough to be A Tell. at this point in uncr's ISO i'd actually have him s/s with JV before eth0s

134 i can kinda feel the wheels turning but i don't think the post really alignment tells; i didn't really like the gyro push d1 bc it was a little purposeless. nullread on gard persists, no trajectory on fishy as of yet

this could be a post sidestepping two people he KNOWS are town or it could be a towny who isn't really sure how to progress the game
checks out from either
i kinda have a policy for forming lazy reads of "if you can see it from a town pov without bending yourself into a pretzel, hey it's probably just town" - at that surface analytical level i could see this as town.

it's kinda worth noting at this point uncr is playing friendly to chib/salad and doesn't ~townread~ fishy but is also playing friendly to him; the gyro SR is pretty easy to have (I think he is scum because he is not helping) and he isn't engaging with gard or JV. he talks around gard a fair bit but it's indirect at the start of the game. using this as framing for the first readlist which i'll talk abt in a bit more length...

You should most definitely take into account the fact that I am scumreading and biased against Uncrowned at the moment, I mean that makes sense but some of my reads may be biased because of that. I personally see this as Uncr trying to get town-cred by not isolating themselves from their buddy but not too much as in it has people think they're buddying up.

I wanted to see your reasoning since I've got Gardenia still in my "null" category for now, at the time I hadn't really noticed anything from her that pointed me in either direction, personally.

As for your answer, it's okay. The reasoning makes sense, but I feel like the vote on Fish is the easiest one to make at the moment, since he's been the most aggressive player thus far.

this is like, worth reading but i don't think AI
will circle back when discussing the readlist

226 defensive tonality and still slowmoving; again could really come from either of {scum not sure how to move, town still tryna sink his teeth in}

Sure. Usually I hesitate to jump on the person who is being the "loudest in the room" as I feel like it's the obvious choice, especially for people who COULD be evil as the louder people are more likely to toss out accusations and make themselves appear more guilty in the process. However, most of my experiences with these aggressive types in other social deduction games is they've usually been either town trying to catch people slipping, or they're a jester (obviously this role list doesn't include that, so that's not a worry here)

However, I want to keep my mind open to the possibility of FF being a distraction for someone else assuming he has one. I see my mistake though, since the only way we'd even be able to figure that out would be via a lynch. Sitting on the fence in that scenario doesn't really make sense. I was hesitant to push since I'm not sure how that sort of thing plays out here. I'll commit to reading FF as an aggressive townie, rather than a scum at this stage.

And you're right, it is a bit odd. My only logic behind it is that Gardenia had been given a TL by two people I believe at that point (Teacher and Salad, who was in your slot before) whereas I had been read as null at that point and hadn't really been asked for my opinions. I'm starting to understand now that it'll be more helpful if I take an actual stance on things instead of waiting for others to do so.

Sure

this post kinda does two things;
firstly: uncrowned is called to evaluate his reads on fishy and gard.
secondly: the stance that pushing fishy as the noisy player was the "easy" thing to do - i actually found fishy's earlygame pretty scummy. it's totally possible this comes from a mindset which is itself nervous to push fishy but equally possible it's just a newbie to forum mafia.

They keep bringing up their null read, like it's a null read you wouldn't need to push on that as much as he seemed to have done at this point. He also hesitates to jump onto the noisiest person in the room but has no qualms about jumping onto the quietest. I see this as they're scared to full town-read their buddy because if they end up being scum pressure could be on him. In games they claim to play, it's usually best to distance yourself from your buddy and maybe that's what he's doing here.

readlist incoming:

My reads thus far

just a synopsis of thoughts:

my slot

- agree salad/datisi did a good job of propelling the game; this is fine/doesn't feel opportunistic or pockety

fishy

- i actually pegged this read for a partner when i was tunnelling fishy :/ the post in question is mason distancing; i didn't really get "aggressive townplay" but as mentioned just now i'm not really sure how i'd feel if i was a newbie in this game

teacher

- 102 is kinda towny on a policy/surface level; i'd actually call the "teacher/fish being a tvt" comment as a crumb he spotted the mason thing but i don't really get the impression he did

gardenia

- this read isn't telling me a lot... uncr sat firmly null on gard until called to action and others explained why they were townreading gard, but the readlist indicates he's felt the need to evaluate the slot firsthand (rather than just sheeping their reads). the qualifier around including fishy in the trio and just the language around "I believe the vote on me was when we started 'redoing' the RVS." might be kind of unintended distancing language but not a strong feeling vs. rest of his iso

JV

- policy level i LOVE jv pushing someone for pushing low activity! i don't expect uncr to like it tho; there isn't really a read on this slot. i feel like the jv post he talks about probably could have invoked some more energy if uncr was being pushed incorrectly. maybe

bugspray

- this nullread is fine

Marionette

- it is an interesting standard that mari is scum for randomvoting teacher but gard is town in spite of randomvoting uncr. ultimately i do agree the vote was kinda offbeat tho.

Gyro

- i don't think gyro really got a fair run d1 but i think i need to accept that the towntell i saw was pretty abstract, and that it's totally fair for town to make this misread.

You practically hit what I was thinking, also the green in the quote below is not me lol

from a wagonomics pov ultimate lynch wagon had 3+ town on it including the mason duo;

Gyro Zeppeli (5) - Uncrowned,

teacher

, JacksonVirgo,

Fuzanlong

,

Formerfish

so don't have a strong feeling on whether this read was opportunistic or not

Honestly, they've been throwing shade at me for voting on that yet 1. they voted first and 2. it was a town majority vote as you picke dup

this is one of those things the wiki tells us to never post but it's on my mind SO
if i was scum with anyone but uncrowned i think i'd be setting up an uncrowned/eth0s scumteam for the mislynch
the way his read on gardenia is sitting null until he's called to action on it and then pivots to a somewhat overqualified townread just looks v convenient if we operate in hindsight and if JV is town
that being said i don't actually really think the trajectory is super scum indicative; i can also attribute town motive to it so aorn i don't feel like i have a smoking gun

Does the wiki tell you not to provide examples of you being scum or? Because I thought it was fine so you could show perspective or something. I am indeed town and yes, it looks convinient and I still feel that he's trying to distance himself from his buddy but not too much and is now pushing on their buddy since it's LyLo. Could be wrong, but that would mean duckyboi is scum and that makes me sad.

while i'm typing this i'm realising JV who i was hoping to talk to about it has gone afk; fishy still awol; i'll do some housework & resume ISO later.
i'm kinda hoping for a clear or a smoking gun or a partner clear. i kinda want to clear JV/uncr off the last couple of pages but i want to do more work on this. tl;dr working on the first ~10 pages i don't think uncr has strongly alignment told.

I am here to talk about it, might not respond immediately considering I have a massive ass headache right now that popped out of nowhere :c Make sure to check Eth0s and my ISOs as well if you want a good well-rounded reads since everyone is town-reading you currently and Fishyboi is confirmed you are the people making the choices which I am not particularly happy about because it's stressing me the shit out.

uncr if you feel i'm misrepresenting or misunderstanding anything pertinent, please chime in; if it's just playstyle/general mafia theory stuff just maybe have a think about whether it'll help sorting you or whether it's better to wait til endgame

if you're unsure i'd rather have the conversation than not have it

[JacksonVirgo]

she did the same for gyro and i

Yeah I took it back after realising

[JacksonVirgo]

Also, Gardenia's readlist there was the same one I was referring to when JV was calling my list mediocre. I'm not sure why he referenced mine and tried to use it against me when I feel like Gardenia's was of similar quality, seemed weird to me that they would ignore that and go straight for mine.

I was looking through your ISO when I saw it boo

[Uncrowned]

Who was the null read that I kept pushing on? I'm not following you there. That list was made D1, I wasn't pushing on you or Bugspray at that point in the game, I believe. I was just asking you questions then.

And as I said, 2 people had already townleaned Gard at that point. I could've put them in my TL immediately and no one would have batted an eye, but I thought better of it and decided to actually ask for the reasoning behind it, rather than just following along. If that's scummy to you, then I can't really say anything else tbh.

And when did I push on The Worst? At the moment I've been pushing mostly on you, which would... make you my buddy? Not really sure what you're trying to say there.

[Uncrowned]

Yeah, but you've read the other ISOs too, correct? And the two other people with similar readlists to me are... Fuz and Gardenia, two of the lowest posting people in the game, meaning it wouldn't take much reading to find those lists.

And as I said, you said nothing about them.

[Uncrowned]

Also, me jumping on the "quiet person" was the same person you also voted on, if you remember correctly.

But yes, I don't see the reason behind people being quiet in this game, unless they're super busy or got stuff going on. If me voting them makes them react and at least make a post, that's one step closing to helping town in my book. I'm not going to backtrack on that, I stand by those votes but wish we could've gotten more out of both D1 and D2 before we hammered.

[Uncrowned]

In fact the more I think about it, the more I realize you've also pushed on almost every quiet person, except for Fish. That was the one push where you didn't do that.

When you pushed on me originally, you said I could fit the bill for scum since I haven't posted much.

Fuz was quiet, Gyro was quiet.

If we're going by your logic, you've targeted the quieter posters more than I have. I don't really think that proves anything towards you being scum, since as I said in the above post, I WANT to motivate those quiet posters into giving some input, but you mentioning me as if I'm the only one doing that is interesting, considering you're doing the same thing to an even greater extent.

[the worst]

@teacher I like the reaction test, seems like a town move.

@gyro This is a game of reads, we need them for early game info.

I'm leaning towards changing my vote to Marionette soon if we don't get any input from her.

The reasoning here is kinda roughly fine but it's fairly surface level; the post @Gyro didn't really contain a call to action of any sort or an effort to prompt him into AI content just sorta... a comment about why he was incorrect. I think gyro largely wasn't given a prompt to play this game and was v much lynched on the basis of playing unconventionally so there is a lack of effort to actively sort Gyro. But I'm not convinced I would expect this of newbies to forum mafia.

Just noting Uncrowned has voted twice this game; and has been on both mislynches. He was first onwagon for Gyro and checking whether he champions the lynch or just kinda waits for it to happen might be valuable

Iirc his vote on Fuz was lateish; I'll check this too

[Uncrowned]

I was one of the few people questioning Gyro and trying to get him in the game, IIRC. So I don't think that holds up, honestly.

As for Fuz, I was the 2nd vote.

[JacksonVirgo]

What does IIRC mean?

[the worst]

If I recall correctly

[Uncrowned]

If I recall correctly

[the worst]

VOTE: Fuz

Maybe you're passive town, but your playstyle seems opportunistic to me.

Also still want Ethos to explain why Fuz is "clearly town" from his POV.

third vote incl. Fishy; fishy off then back on; JV with the hammer. trajectory on Fuz up until this is kind of null/undecided but always kinda asking questions/concerned. This was a well setup vote if Uncrowned is scum.

[JacksonVirgo]

And I never voted for the sole reason of them being quiet like you did D1 @uncr

And thanks duckyboi

[JacksonVirgo]

Oh thanks too uncr

[Uncrowned]

Gyro being quiet wasn't my sole reason, I clearly stated that his posts weren't benefiting the town from my POV. With hindsight, we can see it was just a different playstyle, but back when we didn't know, it just didn't seem like he was willing to help progress the game in any meaningful way - and that's exactly what i said when I kept my vote on him. Don't try and twist the story, we have the ability to go back and see what happened.

[JacksonVirgo]

Hi everyone, first timer. Let's see how this plays out.

I think a no lynch is a bad idea, I'd rather get as much info as we can out of the early stage of the game.

I'm putting my vote on someone who hasn't posted yet.

VOTE: Gyro Zeppeli

Also you're a JoJo character so you're already intimidating me, you stud you.

Um, you literally said that it's because they haven't posted. Am I misunderstanding again?

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: Fuz

Maybe you're passive town, but your playstyle seems opportunistic to me.

Also still want Ethos to explain why Fuz is "clearly town" from his POV.

third vote incl. Fishy; fishy off then back on; JV with the hammer. trajectory on Fuz up until this is kind of null/undecided but always kinda asking questions/concerned. This was a well setup vote if Uncrowned is scum.

My Post 719 makes it pretty clear I was beginning to suspect her, imo. When she wouldn't respond to my questions, that only furthered my suspicions and led to my vote.

[Uncrowned]

Dude, JV, That was on page 1 of the game, we were in RVS.

I'm talking later on when I kept my vote on him, and when other people started voted on him. I gave my reasons then, as he hadn't done anything up until that point to make me feel comfortable in unvoting him.

[the worst]

Just checked Fuz ISO and I think I would have struggled if she hit f5; she didn't really engage with Uncr on any of the questions, her read on Eth0s could have come from s/s pretty easily; she never mentioned JV. Perfect partner equity with 3/3 slots.

A part of me wants to ask Uncrowned why he voted Fuz. His read trajectory checks out. Another part of me wants to ask JV why they voted Fuz. They explained it with the vote and (apparently?) accidentally hammered early. We probably could have let the phase run a little longer but I kinda agree with Fishy's take there; always hammer the "lol u can't prove I'm scum lol haha lol prove it" posts esp. when they haven't like really played in earnest

I'm actually getting slightly upset that Gyro was lynched d1 the more I reread d1 that was a lazy town ISO but it was town and often those players try to get spicy later in the game (see: me in large theme games) THANKS FOR LISTENING