Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Wake1]

I'm not sure what is meant by layers.

Layers of complexity. Added dimensions to the game.

[gobbledygook]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Uh truthfully I’d have to look up what is current on that one. I’m out of date.

[Amrun]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Is it the no recruitment you take issue with?

[gobbledygook]

Are there any current ideas close to being normalized?

I feel like there aren't too many options considering Normal Mafia has so few layers.

I don’t think any of your suggestions so far should be normal. The player base for normals don’t want role madness layers. There’s a place for this type of role: in themes.

Do you disagree about the current form of traitor?

Is it the no recruitment you take issue with?

It’s kind of both no recruitment and auto loss once the main team is dead. In its current iteration, the traitor is just not fun to play. Not only are you at risk of being lynched, you’re also at risk of being teamkilled. That’s not fun.

Moreover, the main strategic benefit of the traitor—no associatives from your teammates towards you—is completely nullified since you just outright lose if they all die. That’s not fun.

I admit there does seem to be some fun design elements surrounding the current iteration of normalized traitor (I think under this current form it does not return guiltiest to a gunsmith). However, this design change seems to be made from an ivory tower so to speak. The people implementing the change have never actually played as this current form of traitor so they don’t know how bad it really is. That would be like a manufacturer making a phone that is too large to be held by 99% of the population under the guise of “bigger screen, bigger battery!” Well yeah, but if you can’t hold it in one hand that defeats its purpose. The same principle applies here. If the role isn’t fun by anyone’s metric, why is it even a role?

[popsofctown]

Traitor shouldn't really be in normal queue.
Monkeying around with whether the game is an informed minority against an uninformed majority should be strictly not normal.

It's roughly about as offcolor as multiball, which is banned. They both make it possible for scum to push scum because they don't know the person they're pushing isn't scum. That's also true about SKs but SKs aren't groupscum and act differently whereas both a traitor teammate and an opposing multiball player

are

groupscum.

[gobbledygook]

Traitor shouldn't really be in normal queue.
Monkeying around with whether the game is an informed minority against an uninformed majority should be strictly not normal.

It's roughly about as offcolor as multiball, which is banned. They both make it possible for scum to push scum because they don't know the person they're pushing isn't scum. That's also true about SKs but SKs aren't groupscum and act differently whereas both a traitor teammate and an opposing multiball player

are

groupscum.

I concur in part and dissent in part, Pops. I agree that this current form of traitor should not be Normal. However, I disagree with the reasoning behind it. For Groupscum A, Traitor A counts as a member for their wincondition. Groupscum B does not count as a member for Groupscum A's wincondition. Therefore, if Groupscum A kill Traitor A via lynch, that is essentially bussing. There is nothing wrong with that. Whether they intended to bus or not, that is a different question that trends more towards the fun argument rather than this philosophical argument.

I think the reason multiball is banned is because it literally only decreases each individual player's chance of winning. Groupscum A and Town B's chances are ALL lowered by the presence of Groupscum C. In my mind, Groupscum C leeches its win percentage from both Groupscum A and Town B. That is not fun and also incredibly hard to balance against. That makes sense why it was banned.

With that all being said, if the Normal Review Group cannot salvage the current Traitor role, it is probably best to remove it from the approved list of Normal roles.

I not want my ivory tower comment in 279 to be viewed as disparaging or ungrateful towards the Normal Review Group. They do fantastic things and the setups they create are some of the most fun that I have had on this site. But, I do think that current situation with the Traitor role suffered from a lack of quality control.

[TemporalLich]

Multiball is allowed in Large Normals afaik

I think Mafia Traitor (and Werewolf Traitor for those multiball large normals) are a good way to put in "half a scum". It's probably the best as is, since:

Removing the endgame rule results in weird endgames involving a Mafia Traitor and two town-aligned roles for example.

Making the scum know the Traitor's identity inherently removes design space as you can just make all the scum Informed (knows who the Traitor is).

Banning Traitor removes design space and makes it harder to balance weird game sizes.

[Menalque]

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Mafia being informed of traitor by default instead of the other way around

[Amrun]

@gobble: it is bizarre that traitor can’t win alone.

[TemporalLich]

here's my bizarre way of making traitor that doesn't die to endgame and doesn't have a potential to lead to effective nightless games:

Mafia Traitor gains the Mafia factional nightkill if it is the only Mafia-aligned player alive.

[gobbledygook]

here's my bizarre way of making traitor that doesn't die to endgame and doesn't have a potential to lead to effective nightless games:

Mafia Traitor gains the Mafia factional nightkill if it is the only Mafia-aligned player alive.

The funny thing is, TP, that used to be how traitors worked. Well, that and they could get recruited at the cost of a nightkill.

[BBmolla]

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Mafia being informed of traitor by default instead of the other way around

Makes it so the traitor is literally not an informed minority

Like also think how unfun that is as a traitor

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure what is meant by layers.

Layers of complexity. Added dimensions to the game.

There isn't supposed to be layers of complexity in normal games

In its current iteration, the traitor is just not fun to play.

Well that's your opinion, I think traitor is a fun role to be

I think traitor needs to be reworked again.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Mafia being informed of traitor by default instead of the other way around

I'd be opposed to that, and it doesn't solve any of the problems Pops brought up. I think the role is fine as is, I don't necessarily agree that it's half a scum though - I think it's stronger than that

[popsofctown]

Oh yuck thanks for the correction. I'll probably stay out of large normals then

[gobbledygook]

There isn't supposed to be layers of complexity in normal games

I do not think this is true as a bright line rule. There have been several complex normal games recently.

[Alisae]

Question:
Why do you guys want Traitor to be normal?
Why is the role fun to play?
I don’t get it maybe I don’t see the fun in the role.

[gobbledygook]

I want the traitor to be normal because it adds depth to normal games. However, I would rather it not be normal if the role is going to remain as it is now.

[Alisae]

~

[Alisae]

Why is the role fun to play?
I don’t get it maybe I don’t see the fun in the role.

This is important btw
Its super important to make sure your game is going to be fun to play.

I get the design elements behind it and the depth it allows for, but if its not a fun role to play, who cares

[gobbledygook]

It changes how the mafia play. Group scum are less likely to bus one another. Additionally, the associative tells toward the traitor are changed since the mafia do not know who is the traitor. If the traitor has a power role, it further adds to the depth because the traitor may investigate or target someone the main group is already targeting or even killing. I think the traitor role forces mafia to be more careful and generally requires better skill than your average goon role.

Edit:

Ali, I think my version of traitor is fun because it challenges you to adapt your play. Do you make yourself known to your teammates at the cost of revealing them should you flip? Do power bus one of them in the hopes of getting recruited by them? It is safe to say that traitor is not played as your traditional mafia slot.

However, the current iteration of traitor encourages a different sort of playstyle. It does not want you to bus your teammates because 1) you lose if they all die, and 2) they could kill you out of fear. This means your best approach to the game is to lurk, hammer anything that is not your teammate, and just generally try to draw attention away from the main group. For some players, they are probably thankful to have that playstyle forced upon them. I just don’t think that’s the type of playstyle that should be baked into a specific role.

I think there is a lot of design space and room for exploration with the traitor role. Particularly when the traitor also has a power role. I also think the same could be said about No Daytalk. It is much harder to coordinate a quick hammer without daytalj. As someone who has played as mafia without daytalk and as a traitor within the last few months, those design elements were a refreshing change of pace.

[mastina]

Oh yuck thanks for the correction. I'll probably stay out of large normals then

You won't run into unannounced multiball with the likely exception of serial killers (which aren't really multiball).

[Wake1]

I think, for Normal games, allowing for more Neighborhoods creates an added layer of complexity without compromising power balance. Instead of putting "/Neighbor" onto role PMs, just include the Neighborhood link into their role PM and then put on game post that at at least one Neighborhood may or may not exist... for the sake of simplicity.

[Ircher]

I think, for Normal games, allowing for more Neighborhoods creates an added layer of complexity without compromising power balance. Instead of putting "/Neighbor" onto role PMs, just include the Neighborhood link into their role PM and then put on game post that at at least one Neighborhood may or may not exist... for the sake of simplicity.

I agree that neighborhoods add a good layer to games without breaking balance. However, if I am reading your post correctly, you wish to add hidden neighborhoods to normal games? I don't think that is a good idea mainly because it then encourages speculation based on a moderator's meta as to whether or not their exists a neighborhood in the game. That kind of speculation is not encouraged because it can break otherwise good setups. It is also not healthy to the game state for players to discuss moderator meta. Also Janitors are explicitly forbidden from the normal queue likely due to hiding information, and this idea seems similar in the information hiding respect. While hiding information is useful in some cases, flips generally are not; people expect flips to give full information about a player's role unless explicitly indicated otherwise (e.g.: informed hides information on flip). But even in the case pf Informed, players know that player had information, just not what that information. There are cases where obscuring information is a good thing, but this does not seem one of those instances.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is the role fun to play?
I don’t get it maybe I don’t see the fun in the role.

This is important btw
Its super important to make sure your game is going to be fun to play.

I get the design elements behind it and the depth it allows for, but if its not a fun role to play, who cares

I played it once and although I was barely in the game long myself it was still fun knowing the picture of the game and trying to utilize it.
Tbh I kinda wanna roll Traitor again some day just to try my hand at it for realsies
Plus there’s trying to indicate your identity to your team. Tbh I think making Traitor recruitable, on top of other things that maybe feel non normal, hurts the idea of scum having to be careful around the traitor
I liked what Boonskiies did in one of his games where iirc he made it so the traitors (cos multiball) had to target their team to get recruited. Obviously this wouldn’t work perfectly with how it is supposed to know their identities but like maybe give the traitor some ability that enable that, like Neighborizer (but prolly make it Novice or something?)
Also I remember that Large Normal you modded with Frogger where the mafia had a cop to find their traitor, I liked that