In post 399, callforjudgement wrote:IMO the most sensible resolution to the double rolestop is that the rolestoppers rolestop each other and other actions go through (RAR produces this result, it's a bit less clear under NAR). In that situation, it seems strange for the rolestopped action to trigger the Fragile (unless you think that roleblocked actions would).
I don't know RAR but two jailkeepers absolutely should not be able to doctrain.
And I agree two rolestoppers should end up causing each other to fail in a mutual rolestop, therefore Fragile should live in a mutual rolestop assuming no other actions.
Isn't a Tracker-Miller called a Sleepwalker? I think there's one in great idea, not that that is a great sense of role names but I think it fits. He just appears to always target the NK.
Multitasking is problematic as hell for the concept of visiting. Tracker can only track a player to two targets if they're mafia.
As a sidenote, I think a Tracker/Watcher variant that can't see nightkills could be useful in setups. Maybe a modifier that could be applied to investigatives that fails upon determining nightkills.
Edit: oh it exists and it's called Personal, that should 100% be whitelisted
yeah, I think the main problem would be determining if Personal is viable on these roles:
Gunsmith, Detective, Psychologist (which have investigations relying on the factional kill but are role investigators and not action investigators)
Traffic Analyst, PT Cop (which have investigations relying on the factional PT instead of the factional kill)
Encryptor (which has potential to affect a factional PT)
imo these should be viable for a Personal modifier, like this:
Personal Gunsmith gets a "no gun" result on a Mafia Goon but a "gun" result on a Role Cop regardless of alignment.
Personal Detective and Personal Psychologist gets negative results on Mafia Goons and Serial Killers regardless of whether they have killed or not.
Personal Traffic Analyst and Personal PT Cop can't see a Mafia PT and thus both get negative results on a Mafia Goon.
A Mafia Neighbor Personal Encryptor grants daytalk to the neighborhood but not the Mafia PT.
Personal being whitelisted would make me less likely to agree with Ninja being removed btw (since Personal interferes with an action investigator in such a way that it gives a false negative, but at least in the case of Personal it was spelled out in the Personal action investigator's Role PM).
In post 322, Amrun wrote:Idk I just feel like if you track X to nowhere in a normal you shouldn’t have to speculate “but what if they’re a ninja?”
That’s for themes.
Untrustworthy results is fine in Normals, other wise Gunsmith wouldn’t be normal
The reason Godfather got canned as I see it is it screwed with how the game was played too much
Ninja doesn’t really do that to the extent GF does. Worst I see is a Watcher seeing someone visit a Ninja’d kill and get a false guilty
And like your given scenario isn’t that significant because Ninja isn’t meant to counter Tracker, it’s meant to counter Watcher. So Tracker should not need to think that hard about it.
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.
Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.
There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.
I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.
Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.
Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.
Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.
P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.
Tbh what grounds do you consider vanillaizer normal by
Like I wouldn’t want to be able to lose my role in a Normal, that just doesn’t seem fun at all
That seems like solid reason for it to not be normal
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.
Loyalblocker isn't the same thing as Loyal Roleblocker for example.
Here's how I'd define the variant roles:
Loyalblocker - Make a player unable to target players that they don't share an alignment with for the night (effectively making them Loyal for the night, or roleblocking them if they target outside their alignment)
1-shot Ascetic - Immune to non-kill actions the first night they are targeted by a non-kill action.
Strongman as a modifier - A modifier making you ignore roleblocking, protection, rolestopping, and immunities. Does not allow targeting commuting commuters.
Superstar - IC without the innocent part i.e. it doesn't confirm alignment. A variant of this might be publically revealing your role as if you were public role copped.
Follower-Cop - A weakened role cop that gets results in the term of a Follower. (probably a bad name tbh since it sounds like a hybrid role)
pedit: yeah confusing roles like Town 1-shot Weak Loyal Combined Neighborizer Friendly Neighbor isn't really normal and the normalcy part of the reviews should weed that out imo.
I prefer the idea of inherent multitasking being something the mod puts in the ruleset imo
I think Multitasking should go the way of Encryptor where you can have unannounced multitasking through the modifier or have announced multitasking. I especially want this because Multitasking X can be a soft/hard guilty to a Role Cop.
We're falling through space, you and me, clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go...That's who I am.
Instead of having the permitted roles and mechanics outline the principles and expectations of Normal, have the principles and expectations of Normal outline the permitted roles and mechanics.
There's BooneyToonz if you want a bottom-up Normal game.
I completely agree. We need to agree on what, fundamentally, IS the concept of a normal game, and then allow/disallow roles based on their adherence to that concept.
Axe ninja and Miller. They’re not needed and contradict the idea of Normal IMO.
Vanillizer, on the other hand, does not, IMO. At this point in time the “normal” designation seems arbitrary.
Personally, I would also axe multitasking! But that’s more debatable.
P-edit: Yes, it would be powerful. That’s a question of balance, not which roles are normal. Currently, ungated cops are not usually used, and that trend would continue.
Tbh what grounds do you consider vanillaizer normal by
Like I wouldn’t want to be able to lose my role in a Normal, that just doesn’t seem fun at all
That seems like solid reason for it to not be normal
I don’t see a problem with it. It’s just a permanent roleblock. However, that’s not really my hill to die on, just my two cents. I could see it being very interesting in combo with Neapolitan or similar.
Ninja and gunsmith aren’t similar at all, as RC said. You know what types of roles return guns. I think gunsmith role is great, btw.
I personally have a bit of difficulty mentally reconciling how a Gunsmith and a Mafia Doctor is acceptable under current Normal Guidelines, but a Cop and Godfather is not.
In post 418, gobbledygook wrote:I personally have a bit of difficulty mentally reconciling how a Gunsmith and a Mafia Doctor is acceptable under current Normal Guidelines, but a Cop and Godfather is not.
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
I will basically be saying things totally piecemeal in this thread but this one I know the answer to already:
Basically, godfather is banned from normals while gunsmith is allowed to get a false innocent on doctors for a couple reasons.
1, sort of first and foremost, is mechanical reasons. Without this ban, there is no "reliable investigative" that can be put into a normal game, and this is something that makes sense to have from a design perspective. It makes sense when designing games to have the option of an investigative role that can't get wrong results. This is also a reason why framer is banned; the only exception to the rule is miller, which is allowed basically because it's so innocuous from that perspective because a miller always has the option to claim.
There's also mechanical reasons why it's useful to have a false innocent for gunsmiths. Since they're sort of designed as the "mid tier" of investigative reliability, weaker than a cop but stronger than a vanilla cop or a rolecop typically, it's reasonable to have it be the case that they might have one false innocent. Typically a setup with multiple mafia doctors isn't gonna be passed as normal.
2, uniqueness. Gunsmiths can get several kinds of false innocents: mafia doctors, traitors, and serial killers, and several kind of false guilties in vigs, cops and cop variants, etc. It's not that strange or norm-breaking for them to have another one. Godfather is the unique role like that for cops, again. Hand in hand with this is that this is the *only* function of a godfather; the town will often have additional information that may suggest the existence of a scum doctor. The most obvious example would be the classic triad of a scum doctor, a town gunsmith, and a town vig, which all interact with each other (doc blocks vig shots, gunsmith gets a false innocent and a false guilty). When the town sees there's a vig *and* a gunsmith, they get more of an inkling that there might be a doctor. This can be done in other creative ways as well, e.g. by giving town a backup doctor but no doctor, or using informed roles, or giving the town a rolecop, and so on, and so forth. Whereas there's basically no way to design a setup in such a way that it is "suggested" that there's a godfather without just being explicit that there has to be one, which puts cops in the awkward situation of being the strongest investigative role imaginable but still not really being able to trust anything at all. The very existence of godfathers as legal significantly skews any game with a cop in it significantly toward being scumsided.
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
In post 423, skitter30 wrote:What would a scum backup doctor return to a gunsmith?
Normal version
Backup is treated as a modifier to a role, causing the role to be unusable and do nothing until another player with the same role (regardless of alignment) has died.
A backup doctor is a doctor with a modifier that prevents them from taking action until another doctor has died. They wouldn't have a gun, under normal rules.
