Newbie 1973 | Mountain | Over

[Mitillos]

Also, I just saw this.

Mod notes: Mitillos is the new Gyro Zeppeli

I sure hope not. I don't intend to make homophobic remarks, or make juvenile attacks against another player's manhood.

[Farren]

Could be scummy;

you're trying to avoid my actual reasoning, albeit there was none

, by putting the focus on two people, one of which was just banned and the other having only replied once and never again.

Could you please explain the above? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

[Farren]

Anyway, to Farren: same question you asked me: any townreads?

Hm.

With Ph0enix: given the mistaken identity bit, looks like Ph0enix voting Gyro for Gyro doing something weird. Slightly townie.

After reading some of PenguinPower's past ISOs (Micro 898, Alisae v Pine), I think I'm okay with PenguinPower.

I think Cheeky is Town. I like the poking and prodding attitude so far.

These three are still valid; I'm trying to see if I can either strengthen the read on you or figure out why it's wrong.

A big part of why I asked you about your townreads was because I looked at your ISO and didn't see any. I'd expect any Town player to have at least some ideas of who's Town at this point - even if they haven't communicated those ideas to the thread. You remind me of - me - to some extent, and I figure if you are Town, it's possible that you do have Town reads and just haven't said anything about them yet. I've been lousy about that in the past.

Given that I'd already stated some of my townreads previously - why did you just ask the same question I asked you, rather than following up on the reads I've already given?

[Farren]

Farren feels far more genuine here than his tactically cool and composed scum game I witnessed. Post 33 reinforces this feeling for me.

I always aim for "tactically cool and composed," regardless of my alignment. Some people swear there's a difference, though. One of these days I will find that difference and ELIMINATE it.

I think this is not at all a reason to townread someone with Cheeky's experience. It's super easy to ask questions and poke at people's posts. The truth comes in the result of that poking and prodding. So far I don't see any action coming out of that.

I need to figure out if this is a reasonable take or not. Well, the "results of the poking and prodding" bit certainly is reasonable; not sure about whether or not "don't see any action coming out of that" can be fairly applied to Cheeky. Going off of memory, I don't think it is, but should ISO to confirm/deny.

I guess I'm not seeing the same things you are. I see a bunch of empty questions, a lot of IC-ing, and not much sorting. Not many substantiated conclusions, if any at all.

The vote on me, without allowing me any opportunity to respond to questions, says a lot.

The non-underlined part goes in the same basket as above. The underlined part - that's the sort of thing I'd expect to see if you'd been hammered. Maybe even if you'd been brought to L-1. Why does that vote say a lot?

This confirms that idea - a slip of the tongue. He went back and read it. I don't usually re-read my own posts unless I want to make sure they sound a certain way (i.e. when I'm scum...)

I re-read my posts all the time. Sometimes I make idiotic formatting errors and/or misattribute quotes and forget to preview first. Sometimes I think someone is misrepresenting me - so reread what I post to take a fresh look at it to see if I think what I said could be reasonably misunderstood or not. I don't see this as scummy at all.

This feels fabricated to me. He's voting me but "needs more"? Clearly not since he feels I'm worth of a vote over Phoenix. And then so easily reading everyone who has been posting the most as town... lazy lazy. WHY are they town?

This sounds good.

[PenguinPower]

p-edit: @Penguin: I think ETL was saying it wasn't intentional.

Ah. Fair enough.

[Farren]

Throughout the game, Ph0enix has been voting without reason and unvoting when it seems controversial. Two examples of this are when he voted back Gyro, then unvoted him because Gyro's voters were under pressure of being scum. Then he voted Chazary, got grilled again, then unvoted.
The first time, with Gyro, if he really did just want to vote him back, why would he withdraw his vote when the wagoners were pressured? I believe he didn't want to be seen as the guy who started the lynch wagon.
Second time with Chazary, he voted him, saying he wanted to hear from "one of the quieter guys". Thats not really a good reason for voting him, but thats ok. Then when Cheeky questions him: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11438328
A bit later he withdraws his vote. Following that he is under pressure again.
Read pg 5 to get the context.

P.S. How do I quote really old posts?

Post 9: Ph0enix votes for Gyro.
Post 60: Ph0enix unvotes.

Same, honestly. I voted you just because you voted me, no other reason. However, seeing that you're L-2 right now is bothering me.

Between posts 9 and 60:

49: Gyro says one of his three voters are scum, but says Ph0enix is "cool beans".
53: Gyro clarifies: says Ph0enix could be scum, but that Gyro would have done the same in Ph0enix's shoes.
59: Gyro says PenguinPower is probably scum.

I don't see anyone besides Gyro applying pressure to Gyro's voters, and Gyro was the one being voted - and Gyro was specifically excluding Ph0enix (or at the very least, minimizing) from the pressure. Ph0enix states his reasoning for unvoting as taking Gyro out of L-2. So how do you come to the conclusion that Ph0enix unvoted due to pressure on Gyro's voters?

Looking at Ph0enix's vote / unvote on chazary ...

Okay, I'll give you this one. Stating that the vote won't make a difference and then switching to no vote at all - which makes even less of a difference - yeah, that needs to be looked at. I don't know if it fits the controversy narrative, but I can see why it's suspicious.

One more question for you, Arthur: what's the difference between Ph0enix's votes and chazary's opening votes in posts 106 and 109? chazary explicitly references controversy in 109 when he switches his vote.

[Farren]

3) ArthurConyl
I feel pretty strongly this slot is town, just based on how he's reacted to things happening in the game and his apparent drive to understand it. I feel like if he was scum he'd be getting a lot more coaching in the PT. He comes across as truly being solo here.

This came after accusing Cheeky (her main scumread) of IC-ing in favour of scumhunting. Note that Cheeky has been giving answers that could be thought of as "coaching" to Arthur. For that matter, Farren could also be seen as "coaching" Arthur (see post 41). Obviously, I don't think this was happening, as I'm townreading all three players involved here, but ETL's reasoning above seems to contradict the situation, in light of the Cheeky scumread. In short, @ETL: IGMEOY.

I'm not seeing how ETL is contradicting herself here?

Other than this, I like what I've seen from you so far.

[Farren]

And just to make it explicit:

How's that, given the fact that about half of the current votes are completely random (including mine)? I mean, I voted chazary but it's not like it'll make a difference or something. That being said:
UNVOTE: chazary

If that was your reasoning for unvoting chazary, why didn't you vote for someone that would make a difference?
If that wasn't your reasoning for unvoting chazary, what was?

[Farren]

VOTE: chazary

Imagine this vote in a bikini. Can't have it being charged with indecent exposure or something. Or maybe a strategically placed cloud passing by in just the right spots.

[ArthurConyl]

Throughout the game, Ph0enix has been voting without reason and unvoting when it seems controversial. Two examples of this are when he voted back Gyro, then unvoted him because Gyro's voters were under pressure of being scum. Then he voted Chazary, got grilled again, then unvoted.
The first time, with Gyro, if he really did just want to vote him back, why would he withdraw his vote when the wagoners were pressured? I believe he didn't want to be seen as the guy who started the lynch wagon.
Second time with Chazary, he voted him, saying he wanted to hear from "one of the quieter guys". Thats not really a good reason for voting him, but thats ok. Then when Cheeky questions him: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11438328
A bit later he withdraws his vote. Following that he is under pressure again.
Read pg 5 to get the context.

P.S. How do I quote really old posts?

Post 9: Ph0enix votes for Gyro.
Post 60: Ph0enix unvotes.

Same, honestly. I voted you just because you voted me, no other reason. However, seeing that you're L-2 right now is bothering me.

Between posts 9 and 60:

49: Gyro says one of his three voters are scum, but says Ph0enix is "cool beans".
53: Gyro clarifies: says Ph0enix could be scum, but that Gyro would have done the same in Ph0enix's shoes.
59: Gyro says PenguinPower is probably scum.

I don't see anyone besides Gyro applying pressure to Gyro's voters, and Gyro was the one being voted - and Gyro was specifically excluding Ph0enix (or at the very least, minimizing) from the pressure. Ph0enix states his reasoning for unvoting as taking Gyro out of L-2. So how do you come to the conclusion that Ph0enix unvoted due to pressure on Gyro's voters?

Looking at Ph0enix's vote / unvote on chazary ...

Okay, I'll give you this one. Stating that the vote won't make a difference and then switching to no vote at all - which makes even less of a difference - yeah, that needs to be looked at. I don't know if it fits the controversy narrative, but I can see why it's suspicious.

One more question for you, Arthur: what's the difference between Ph0enix's votes and chazary's opening votes in posts 106 and 109? chazary explicitly references controversy in 109 when he switches his vote.

Well Chazary explains that he initially voted for me so that everyone would have a vote. He then switches to Penguin, someone else who has no votes. I think it's forgivable because he just came out of inactivness and wasn't aware the game had moved out of RVS. He explains this and unvotes Penguin.

[ArthurConyl]

VOTE: chazary

Imagine this vote in a bikini. Can't have it being charged with indecent exposure or something. Or maybe a strategically placed cloud passing by in just the right spots.

It looks like Mitillos and Darren want to lynch Chazary. It looks like a coupla other guys (including me) want to lynch ETL. While I think both of them are suspect, we should agree on one person, the most suspect person, to lynch. I think some good points have been made about Chazary. I want to hear more from him. VOTE: Chazary

[Plotinus]

@mod: V/LA through Sunday

V/LA noted --P

[CheekyTeeky]

*facepalm*

[Mitillos]

3) ArthurConyl
I feel pretty strongly this slot is town, just based on how he's reacted to things happening in the game and his apparent drive to understand it. I feel like if he was scum he'd be getting a lot more coaching in the PT. He comes across as truly being solo here.

This came after accusing Cheeky (her main scumread) of IC-ing in favour of scumhunting. Note that Cheeky has been giving answers that could be thought of as "coaching" to Arthur. For that matter, Farren could also be seen as "coaching" Arthur (see post 41). Obviously, I don't think this was happening, as I'm townreading all three players involved here, but ETL's reasoning above seems to contradict the situation, in light of the Cheeky scumread. In short, @ETL: IGMEOY.

I'm not seeing how ETL is contradicting herself here?

Other than this, I like what I've seen from you so far.

If Arthur was going to be coached, it would be by their partner. ETL is scumreading Cheeky, who did explain some things to Arthur (i.e. could be seen as coaching). Yet ETL said nothing about it. This is not so much a contradiction as a tension between two stated positions that are hard to reconcile. I'm not saying it's impossible to reconcile them, and this is why I'm not moving ETL even further up the scummy scale.

Also, I forgot to take into account the fact that Phoneix OMGUSed. I will have to re-evaluate him.

@Arthur: We have a full week until deadline. That's plenty of time to discuss more of our reads. Why the rush to consolidate to one person so quickly?

[ArthurConyl]

@Mitillos I'm not trying to lynch, but I'd rather focus on one person. First Chazary, then ETL. If you misunderstand my intentions, I'll clarify - I'm not trying to lynch anyone.

[chazary]

8) CheekyTeeky (SE)
See my responses above. I think a lot of my read here, beyond the in-thread issues I've noted, also stems from the fact that I'm expecting a higher level of game play from this person, so I'm going to be scrutinizing it a lot more heavily, and in doing so am finding things that don't jive with what I would expect from someone genuinely interested in sorting people out. The OMGUS vote in particular rubs me the wrong way.

There was no questioning of anything else in my first post at all.

Of course I can see why other people are townreading the slot, but I would caution against taking things at face value. It's far too easy to ask questions and be active as scum and I don't believe that's alignment indicative at all. The tone has to be right and I need to see the person working things out in the thread and coming to conclusions that I'm able to follow, even if I don't agree.

But there wasn't much to question in your first post to begin with so what else was she supposed to do. Thats why I asked if you two knew each other and assumed it was a joke RVS vote but I guess not quite. You give all this evidence and reasoning and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your Cheeky scumread but also you said this a bit later that you had only read the first two pages and that was two days after you voted her.
I don't remember anything super AI in those first two pages. I know that the end of RVS was uncertain at the time so it could've been random but why not say that?

Arthur did you see my post above?

Btw for posts in locked threads I usually click the PM button and cut the text from there.

Yes I did. Quoting myself:
"In response to your previous post about Cheeky being scum, I followed the SvS and SvT logic. Her random vote was in the RVS. I agree it is dodgy that she randomly voted me like that, but I don't think it means she's scum."
Besides when you voted for her it was your first vote and she hadn't voted for me yet. Even back then, you were absolutely certain she was scum. Any reason for this?

I second this question. I get the logic behind sussing out her SvS/SvT logic but I'm unsure how that early in the game something like that would make you certain she's scummy.

Also, just throwing a random thought out there, but is it overthinking to wonder if Cheeky and ETL's rivalry so far in the game is just a much more elaborate SvS strat like what Cheeky suggested Phoenix and Gyro were possibly pulling at the start?

Well, anyway, VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Mitillos the scums have day talk in newbies now. Coaching in thread isn’t a thing anymore.

P-edit. K. I’m mobile and don’t have the ability at the moment to go back and quote stuff in order to explain why people are wrong.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Arthur I also very boldly stated that I was sure Farren was town. Things could have been said about that. But no one cared to ask which I think is interesting. The fact that there is such an easy wagon on me and such vocal opposition to my scumread on cheeky speaks volumes.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Stating something is “SvS or SvT” is very commonly a statement made by scum especially that early on.

[chazary]

Could be scummy;

you're trying to avoid my actual reasoning, albeit there was none

, by putting the focus on two people, one of which was just banned and the other having only replied once and never again.

Could you please explain the above? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Meaning that, assuming Penguin is scum, he was afraid of directly asking me why I voted for him and instead asked a double barreled question in which he followed it with a question about the two players with the most votes at the time despite me having already (poorly) explained that I was putting RVS votes on people who didn't have votes yet.

So even though my vote for him had no reasoning behind it and I (again, poorly) explained my random voting in my initial post, he still opted to ask about why I didn't vote for other players rather than ask what about him was suspicious.

Not trying to read too much into it, though, bc again this was a random vote. I only said what I said bc Penguin asked what I gathered from his response.

[chazary]

One more question for you, Arthur: what's the difference between Ph0enix's votes and chazary's opening votes in posts 106 and 109? chazary explicitly references controversy in 109 when he switches his vote.

Honestly I had the same thought. At first I thought they mixed up Phoenix's name for mine bc that sounds more like what I did with my votes than what Phoenix did with theirs.

[CheekyTeeky]

Actually I'm pretty happy that Chazary is town based on his stream of thought posting style.

Could you elaborate?

Phoenix how's the scum chat going?

Great, actually, thanks for asking.

No, I'm waiting for him to post before explaining.

That's not how that works, considering I have nothing to explain.

As for Farren's question in a previous post about whether I have any townreads:

PP and Cheeky are fine, both are being responsive and give fair explanations of their actions (although I'm waiting for Cheeky to explain the townread on chazary). Same goes for Farren, although I'm not quite convinced about him, for some reason. If I had to choose I'd say he's Town as well, though. Cheeky's a little bit too pushy for my taste, but that's a difference in playstyle, I guess.

As far as the others go, it's up in the air...

-snip-

Chazary - I read as town because scum often take time to collect their thoughts as they need to be careful and intentional to come across as town. In contrast Chazary's opening posts looked like a town player just posting as they thought without hesitation. Yes some experienced scum players do this, but I'd be very surprised if Chazary as a newbie intentionally waffled in real time as scum. Town do not have the inevitable inhibitions scum have as they have nothing to worry about.

As for your comment that "That's not how that works" this is ballsy enough to make me question the suspicion I have of you. I felt like you were too careful in the game.
- Your RVS vote seemed like posturing "oh well I may as well"
- Easing off Gyro when he was only at L-2 when you had yet to establish a read.
- Casting doubt on townreads and avoiding providing any reads of substance on your own. This is optimal play for scum. White knight (defend players you know are town for town points) and stir suspicion on developing town reads.

I'm not fully convinced you are town yet and forgive me if you have done so already, I'm a bit behind and just answering relevant posts, but could you please provide a tiered readslist?

[chazary]

It might be self-explanatory but just to be sure, what do you mean by naked voting? My vocabulary is lacking. Voting with no reasoning? Also who exactly are you accusing of naked voting?

A naked vote is a post that contains a vote and nothing else (other than maybe an unvote, for those like me who prefer to unvote before voting). My post 152 would be an example.

Trying to process a tonal ping here - what did you think naked voting meant?

I mean basically what it is, a vote with no reason. I suppose those tend to be common around this time?

I mainly asked because this was right after Cheeky and Farren both, according to your definition, exhibited naked voting. Farren's was reasonable but Cheeky following him immediately with no reasoning of her own felt odd. Yeah she came in with an explanation after being asked but her explanation was suss.

1. Arthur's shift in tone felt like hardly anything to really go off of, especially not something to put a vote on him for. She had just made two posts prior suggesting a scumread on Phoenix but didn't vote for them and refused to explain. Then she all of a sudden votes Arthur for seemingly no reason other than to wagon Farren's vote until she explains herself.

2. How did she know Farren's reason for voting Arthur quickly enough to vote Arthur right after? I see that Arthur missed Farren's question but to an outside party who didn't ask or wasn't asked the question I don't see how this would've been read as scum behavior. Plus, neither gave Arthur any time to possibly make another post answering Farren's question. They both seemed kind of trigger happy in voting him after one post.

[CheekyTeeky]

Chazary votes can be used as tools as well as for lynching. I am a predominantly reaction-test type player so often I will do what seems like "odd" or "weird" behaviour to gauge responses. Hences naked votes and the hold off on explaning my intentions straight away. Some players use votes to provoke reactions/activity and others will only vote when they have a strong read.

[ArthurConyl]

^^ I was wondering the same thing when Farren and Cheeky voted for me. Both of their votes seemed off - no inital reasons, just a naked two vote wagon. May I add that when I asked both of them for reasons, Cheeky said she thought I was playing the "shy newbie card" and was pretending to be a newbie in order to lie low, then pointed out that later my tone changed. After I responded to that, she immediately changed her vote to ETL. Her reason doesn't seem that adequate for voting. I don't know how to quote, just read from
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11441840 to
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11442286
After Cheeky explains her reasons for voting me and I respond, she just says:

Excellent.

VOTE: ETL

Then there's Farren. Farren also gives no reason when initally voting me and when asked, he says:

VOTE: ArthurConyl

VOTE: ArthurConyl

Is there a reason you two randomly voted for me?

I believe you've neglected to answer some of Farren's questions.

This is correct.

Arthur: any townreads?

In other words he voted for me just because I didn't answer his question which again seems an inadequate reason. Then he unvotes me in the next post.

Both of these votes and the conversation that followed seem fairly suspicious to me. I think I can say at least one of my voters (Farren and Cheeky) are scum.