Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 2.0

Hectic ----------------------------------

(1)

Chara

Replica ---------------------------------

Farkran --------------------------------

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

Not sparing:

- (8) Hectic, Replica, Farkran, Amrun, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422, alimdia, Psyche

Fight Votecount 2.0

Hectic ----------------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Replica ----------------------------------

Farkran ---------------------------------

(1)

Chara

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

alimdia ----------------------------------

Psyche -------------------------------------

Not Fighting:

- (7) Hectic, Replica, Amrun, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422, alimdia, Psyche

<3

3>3>

Hectic seemed to have a puzzled look when SherlockHolmes was whisked off. Especially when Asgore was far enough that his tail was only visible every other stride. Hectic struggled with object permanence sometimes.
"SherlockHolmes is going home," Chara explained. Hectic looked no less puzzled, and rolled around on the ground, all the while looking left and right quickly as though he were paranoid of his own reality.
"Do you have a home, Hectic? Or are you a stray?" Hectic's stomach was exposed, and Chara knelt to take the natural opportunity to rub his stomach again. None of the monsters seemed able to volunteer information about Hectic having a place of his own.
"Maybe we can find you a home. Or make you one. Mom and Dad have said we can't have pets, but everyone should have someplace that's theirs."
As though Hectic had some understanding, he leapt over to the largest pile of leaves and burrowed into them, finding a way to totally occlude his body. It was fun, but also made him feel a little bit safer from unexpected adult apprehensions and random acts of lava.

With nine alive, it takes five to make a decision.
(expired on 2020-02-14 20:00:00).

[Chara]

Today, Hectic is townreading Chara enough to place it in his spare pool, and is scumreading me because i am scumreading him. This is not progression, it's literally a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense. The only reasons both of you have to townread each other -and scumread me- are because we changed our opinion on you. There is absolutely no other reasons to change your reads other than WE changed our reads. Unfortunately this also applies to Replica, who was scumreading Chara and then reconsiders it exactly when Chara starts scumreading me because i was scumreading Replica, but technically Replica is the most consistent here, so if i had to choose 2 scum and 1 town out of the trio, the town would be Replica. Though, Replica is still a scumread of mine and i could be wrong on either Hectic or Chara - however, it's a given that your interactions do not make sense as a genuine townbloc.

how could you possibly know what reasons there are? or to claim what they are. i've spoken about my Hectic townread plenty and you've never factored in. the biggest reason for it happened before you even replaced in. it's possible my posting towards you at the end of the day yesterday were what Hectic was referring to in his townread (i feel like they were, you've managed to make me more excitable in general), but he never gave that as the reason.

also: why do you consider consistency a town trait? scum are more consistent overall due to attempts to post "well" and without making suspicious contradictory moves. for someone arguing that the personal element and not the math is what makes mafia mafia (i agree with this), why don't you believe that a townie's reads are mutable?

it feels like you worked backwards here from seeing us happening to townread each other and went looking for why that couldn't be, but then skipped over all of the actual reasons for the TRs and made some up. it's incredibly clumsy if you are scum here, but if you're town then i don't know how you came to these conclusions either, or why you've ignored reasoning i know you've read, considering you've quoted it.

[Psyche]

i should try to scumhunt at least as practice ok

[Chara]

that might be a good idea. :> i would like opinions here in general.

why is Hectic your best TR? i agree that he's the easiest but i'd like to know why you're confident.

[Hectic]

i think he's a loser at the moment, combined with him calling Sujimichi an IC and then not answering my question until I repeated it 4 times about why he would FIGHT someone's he not confident on over SPARING someone he considers an IC.

And for the record this is an immense misrep, because i answered it in post 829, directly quoting your posts and explicitly saying i was not ignoring you. It feels weird that you didn't notice it if you were so interested in my answer - anyways, my answer was detailed and correct. Plus, i said at least a million times that i do not care about the sparing route at all because fighting 2 scum is always strictly better than sparing 4 town, and any scenario in-between is just a waste of time.

hi...
i know you mentioned it eventually...
i just don't like how many times i had to ask you it to get an answer from you...
regarding your answer... your assessment in wanting to FIGHT 2 scum over trying to SPARE 4 townies doesn't make you scummy...
however, didn't having someone who you didn't know was the FN at the time as an IC slightly tip the scale towards the SPARE route instead...?
it didn't seem to change your opinion at all, despite the SPARE route being a lot easier in theory after that since it should now be seen as SPARING 3 townies rather than 4 after you locktowned Sujimichi from your perspective...
bye...

[Hectic]

Forgive me for the wallpost, but i really suggest that you read it.

I will come back for my analysis of Psyche, Amrun and Chemist later - there's a lot to say there too, slightly weaker reasons but if i am wrong on the first three,

Psyche is almost certainly scum with Hectic.

hi again...
is this just because i townread him in that last post...?
your method here seems a little shallow in that it relies on people townreading each other to simply be scum with each other...
if it's because of my change of opinion on Psyche... i've explained why...
if you disagree with it... please do say why...
bye again...

[Bingle]

Hi guys. I’ve played about 20 minutes total of undertale. What’s up?

[Hectic]

i TR Amrun, it's not lock but i've come around on her, particularly in her interactions with Sujimichi. why do you scumread her?

hmm.
i didn't like her giving in to SPARING Sujimichi after she was so vehemently against the concept of SPARING.
but y'know, looking back, that actually came after Sujimichi claimed FN and her defence of Nacho did look very towny.
nevermind pal.
do you agree with my take on Chemist?
i've been reading Sherlock's 452 but i don't get why those questions make him town when he rarely ever follows up on them and i can't see reads that have been formed off of them.
hell if i know.
maybe he's just a close to the chest type of player.

[Hectic]

Hi guys. I’ve played about 20 minutes total of undertale. What’s up?

[Chara]

don't say weird things. that'd be like saying humans have skeletons inside them.

[Bingle]

[Chemist1422]

the real skeletons were inside us all along?

[Bingle]

No the real skeletons are buried across the street chem, in the dead people farm.

[Chemist1422]

Ah alright

Hectic, I initially townread you because I liked your progression into solving.

[Chara]

i TR Amrun, it's not lock but i've come around on her, particularly in her interactions with Sujimichi. why do you scumread her?

hmm.
i didn't like her giving in to SPARING Sujimichi after she was so vehemently against the concept of SPARING.
but y'know, looking back, that actually came after Sujimichi claimed FN and her defence of Nacho did look very towny.
nevermind pal.
do you agree with my take on Chemist?
i've been reading Sherlock's 452 but i don't get why those questions make him town when he rarely ever follows up on them and i can't see reads that have been formed off of them.
hell if i know.
maybe he's just a close to the chest type of player.

what Sherlock said about Chemist's style lines up, and from what i know of Chemist it makes sense as well.

it's enough i don't really want to lynch Chemist, but i wouldn't spare him either. if he was more into the game i think i could be more confident, at least in terms of securing a townread. he could be trying to skirt along and avoid a lynch, but that would indicate to me (from scum Chemist) that he thinks his partner is in a good position now.
i think that scum would be putting more into this, especially given how the game looks right now. but i know that's not the most reliable measure. i do think a large part of it is playstyle, he's reticent as town by Sherlock's knowledge.
i'm interested in what he thinks of Farkran's case.

pedit: hello Chemist! why do you TR Hectic now?

[Farkran]

Hectic

also

plainly said he townread me for my posting around the end of day.

Yeah, which amounts exactly to: scumreading me.

Nothing else. If you (or hectic) believe i am wrong, i'll be very happy to hear what else you said to warrant a townread of you from hectic, especially when you didn't vote him back when you started townreading him again (before the sujimichi situation).

Or your scumcase of me, that would also be a very interesting piece of content i would like to hear from you, because -to reiterate- you consolidated your scumread of me exactly when i pushed against Replica

for the exact same reasons you found wrong in his reasoning

.

[Chemist1422]

i TR Amrun, it's not lock but i've come around on her, particularly in her interactions with Sujimichi. why do you scumread her?

hmm.
i didn't like her giving in to SPARING Sujimichi after she was so vehemently against the concept of SPARING.
but y'know, looking back, that actually came after Sujimichi claimed FN and her defence of Nacho did look very towny.
nevermind pal.
do you agree with my take on Chemist?
i've been reading Sherlock's 452 but i don't get why those questions make him town when he rarely ever follows up on them and i can't see reads that have been formed off of them.
hell if i know.
maybe he's just a close to the chest type of player.

what Sherlock said about Chemist's style lines up, and from what i know of Chemist it makes sense as well.

it's enough i don't really want to lynch Chemist, but i wouldn't spare him either. if he was more into the game i think i could be more confident, at least in terms of securing a townread. he could be trying to skirt along and avoid a lynch, but that would indicate to me (from scum Chemist) that he thinks his partner is in a good position now.
i think that scum would be putting more into this, especially given how the game looks right now. but i know that's not the most reliable measure. i do think a large part of it is playstyle, he's reticent as town by Sherlock's knowledge.
i'm interested in what he thinks of Farkran's case.

pedit: hello Chemist! why do you TR Hectic now?

It was mostly just consistent solving but I think I’m gonna put it on hold until I read Farkran’s wall

[Farkran]

Today, Hectic is townreading Chara enough to place it in his spare pool, and is scumreading me because i am scumreading him. This is not progression, it's literally a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense. The only reasons both of you have to townread each other -and scumread me- are because we changed our opinion on you. There is absolutely no other reasons to change your reads other than WE changed our reads. Unfortunately this also applies to Replica, who was scumreading Chara and then reconsiders it exactly when Chara starts scumreading me because i was scumreading Replica, but technically Replica is the most consistent here, so if i had to choose 2 scum and 1 town out of the trio, the town would be Replica. Though, Replica is still a scumread of mine and i could be wrong on either Hectic or Chara - however, it's a given that your interactions do not make sense as a genuine townbloc.

how could you possibly know what reasons there are? or to claim what they are. i've spoken about my Hectic townread plenty and you've never factored in.

the biggest reason for it happened before you even replaced in

. it's possible my posting towards you at the end of the day yesterday were what Hectic was referring to in his townread (i feel like they were, you've managed to make me more excitable in general), but he never gave that as the reason.

also:

why do you consider consistency a town trait? scum are more consistent overall due to attempts to post "well" and without making suspicious contradictory moves

. for someone arguing that the personal element and not the math is what makes mafia mafia (i agree with this), why don't you believe that a townie's reads are mutable?

it feels like you worked backwards here from seeing us happening to townread each other and went looking for why that couldn't be,

but then skipped over all of the actual reasons for the TRs and made some up

. it's incredibly clumsy if you are scum here, but if you're town then i don't know how you came to these conclusions either, or

why you've ignored reasoning i know you've read

, considering you've quoted it.

Bolded part 1: you mean your biggest reason to townread hectic happened when you switched your vote from him to Replica?

Bolded part 2: consistency is a town trait. Of course scum also tries very hard to be consistent, but they are often forced into inconsistency because of their "failure" when reading other players. If you base your reads on a wrong premise and then you are proven wrong by claims or flip, you need to re-evaluate, keeping in mind to avoid PoEing yourself or your partners while also forming new scumreads that you know to be fake. Of course scum tries, but keeping consistency up is hard. As town, it's way easier, because you actually have a chance to be correct when scumreading someone.

Bolded part 3 and 4: sure, please tell me the real reasons why you are townreading Hectic and Replica; why Hectic is townreading you and Replica; why Replica is townreading you and Hectic. If there are anyone else other than omgus and chainsaw defenses, i'm all ears.

[Chara]

i acknowledged that (Hectic's tr on me coinciding with my posts to you) already. what about my townread on Hectic?

as for my read on you: given i have repeated it multiple times i'm not very willing to extend it into a pbp breakdown for you to pick at.

and you saying "townreading him again" as though i ever stopped townreading him. it seems like whenever i type this no one listens, since i remember someone else saying the same thing about my Hectic TR. i never stopped townreading Hectic. that's probably the fourth time i've reiterated that? i was questioning Nacho on

his

read in order to further my understand of

Nacho

, and on the possibility that Nacho's reasoning might be concrete enough to strengthen my Hectic TR. what he had said previously did not seem to warrant the locktown read.

[Farkran]

i think he's a loser at the moment, combined with him calling Sujimichi an IC and then not answering my question until I repeated it 4 times about why he would FIGHT someone's he not confident on over SPARING someone he considers an IC.

And for the record this is an immense misrep, because i answered it in post 829, directly quoting your posts and explicitly saying i was not ignoring you. It feels weird that you didn't notice it if you were so interested in my answer - anyways, my answer was detailed and correct. Plus, i said at least a million times that i do not care about the sparing route at all because fighting 2 scum is always strictly better than sparing 4 town, and any scenario in-between is just a waste of time.

hi...
i know you mentioned it eventually...
i just don't like how many times i had to ask you it to get an answer from you...
regarding your answer... your assessment in wanting to FIGHT 2 scum over trying to SPARE 4 townies doesn't make you scummy...
however, didn't having someone who you didn't know was the FN at the time as an IC slightly tip the scale towards the SPARE route instead...?
it didn't seem to change your opinion at all, despite the SPARE route being a lot easier in theory after that since it should now be seen as SPARING 3 townies rather than 4 after you locktowned Sujimichi from your perspective...
bye...

I was in the middle of a discussion with Replica, and i did say i didn't want to ignore you. Besides, i have stated my reasons in favor of fighting over sparing many many times, so the original question was quite pointless to be fair. Please reread 829. Now my point is moot, but what benefit is there in sparing sujimichi when he's just going to be killed immediately after New Home is reached? More importantly, i am extremely skeptic as of how the sparepushers are SO confident to get 4 correct spares in a row when they have literally no info to work with. Sparing one correct town does not mean you will spare 3 more. The townpool narrows every passing day, by day 4 (assuming scum hasn't been spared earlier) the odds of sparing scum are 2/5, which adds onto day 3's 2/7 and day 2's 2/9. And forgive me if i insist, but it's not JUST math.

Scum will push to spare their partners sooner or later

, so those odds HAVE to be adjusted in favor of scum. They are not good odds.

[Chara]

Bolded part 1: you mean your biggest reason to townread hectic happened when you switched your vote from him to Replica?

Bolded part 2: consistency is a town trait. Of course scum also tries very hard to be consistent, but they are often forced into inconsistency because of their "failure" when reading other players. If you base your reads on a wrong premise and then you are proven wrong by claims or flip, you need to re-evaluate, keeping in mind to avoid PoEing yourself or your partners while also forming new scumreads that you know to be fake. Of course scum tries, but keeping consistency up is hard. As town, it's way easier, because you actually have a chance to be correct when scumreading someone.

Bolded part 3 and 4: sure, please tell me the real reasons why you are townreading Hectic and Replica; why Hectic is townreading you and Replica; why Replica is townreading you and Hectic. If there are anyone else other than omgus and chainsaw defenses, i'm all ears.

part 1: half of it did. the other half of it happened after Hectic expressed regret about the decision. at the time i didn't think much of the delay from Hectic's end, in hindsight after continuing the think about it i realized it was a very bad move if scum. that's the thing about people, they can miss something or not fully realize it the first time.

part 2: i disagree but i at least see your point. in my experience, scum on the whole tend to be more worried about it than town (in the same way that town usually post with more abandon and less caution than scum, since scum have something to hide). there are also reasons to reconsider besides claims and flips. rereading the game happens, hell, coming back to the thread later after a nice cup of tea can be the reason for a read change.

part 3: i refuse to repeat myself for you again. i'm all for dispelling confusion and for being clear but i've repeated myself enough and you pretending that i haven't tells me you're acting in bad faith or not looking hard enough. if you are genuinely, completely confused and tell me so, i will find it for you, if you actually attempt at reading anything i've said this game. and you quite literally quoted Hectic's reason for the Replica TR in your wallpost.

[Farkran]

Forgive me for the wallpost, but i really suggest that you read it.

I will come back for my analysis of Psyche, Amrun and Chemist later - there's a lot to say there too, slightly weaker reasons but if i am wrong on the first three,

Psyche is almost certainly scum with Hectic.

hi again...
is this just because i townread him in that last post...?
your method here seems a little shallow in that it relies on people townreading each other to simply be scum with each other...
if it's because of my change of opinion on Psyche... i've explained why...
if you disagree with it... please do say why...
bye again...

No, it's because of how Psyche places you in his townpool in post 665 where none of the other high townread guys are in there. That post was incredibly scummy by itself, because it's... just a very bad approach to this game to point out a townlist when you know at least some of those people will very likely be killed. Keep in mind that his post appeared after the sujimichi townslip, meaning that both suji and sherlock were almost conftown at the time. No wonders about sherlock dying today, and you were third place in his dull townlist. I am now more inclined to believe Psyche is wrongtown, but the possibility is there.

[Psyche]

oh you worry too much

[Farkran]

i acknowledged that (Hectic's tr on me coinciding with my posts to you) already. what about my townread on Hectic?

as for my read on you: given i have repeated it multiple times i'm not very willing to extend it into a pbp breakdown for you to pick at.

and you saying "townreading him again" as though i ever stopped townreading him. it seems like whenever i type this no one listens, since i remember someone else saying the same thing about my Hectic TR. i never stopped townreading Hectic. that's probably the fourth time i've reiterated that? i was questioning Nacho on

his

read in order to further my understand of

Nacho

, and on the possibility that Nacho's reasoning might be concrete enough to strengthen my Hectic TR. what he had said previously did not seem to warrant the locktown read.

Then why did you vote Replica in his stead? From your point of view, you were like 10 hours from deadline, before replacement extensions. Replica had no votes. What's the meaning of you vanity wagoning Replica at that specific moment in time?

you quite literally quoted Hectic's reason for the Replica TR in your wallpost.

Where? Because i couldn't see it.

[Chara]

there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

you there.
they've been consistently open-minded and transparent.
only weird thing is i didn't agree with either of the assessments in 275.
the first looks like a fluff post not relevant to alignment.
the second is something others also expressed in-thread.
many didn't realise that SPARING means no flips = no information.
but then their thoughts on Asriel or Sherlock in 296 are very reasonable.
and this is similar across their ISO like in their interactions with Nacho.
willing to SPARE this pal too.

this post was in response to voicing my TR and Hectic gave his own reasons for agreeing with the read and why he would spare. you quoted it.