Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open


Forum rules
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1725 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:17 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1718, Farkran wrote:
In post 1700, Nachomamma8 wrote: I have no doubt that Hectic will have improved in many aspects when he plays his next scumgame now that he's got a bunch more town games under his belt. However, the scumgame that he's starting from is one where he was afraid to post as scum, which should incrementally improve as he plays multiple scum games but I wouldn't expect the improvement to be this dramatic.

And, embarrassingly found that Hectic posted a recent scum game that I couldn't find for the life of me here, which I'd suggest you'd read through real quick - still problematic as it includes a jester and Hectic just mostly pretended to be a jester, but still think there's a dramatic difference in Hectic actually scumhunting and trying to figure out the game here and instead just pretending to be a jester and fucking around there. Also feel delaying his spare as scum when Suji asked if he wanted to be hammered would be the sign of scum who is confident and in control (and thus felt they'd be able to cash in on the spare down the road) and don't think the profile from this game demonstrates that's who Hectic is as scum based on how he handled his partner getting lynched Day 1 there.

I thought things like picking at the alimida's inconsistency in their townread on him here was also a surprising play from Hectic if he was scum here, as was prodding Suji why they were willing to spare him - from a scum perspective, you're making people feel awkward for wanting to spare you but it makes a ton of a sense from a town perspective, later translates to him also getting a bit paranoid of Chemist for also feeling that he was jumping on townreading him for no reason.

And there are a bunch of small things, but overall it's simply because the level of content that he's produced and the smaller tiny paranoid thoughts that maybe his read here or there is wrong is a big jump from his completed scum games so far. I can go into some of the smaller things if you'd find it productive but I think the delayed spare + talking about why he thought the delayed spare in thread was a mistake is the tipping point from me to "extremely confident town".
Hmmm. That scum game, even if it's once again a different format, is still kinda bad and it's only from ~1 month ago. What you say about him could make sense. However... now that you mention it, why do you have so much interest and access to Hectic meta, and Hectic only, when in post you say this is the first time you have played with him?

In post , you say that metadiving is an important part to your scumhunting strategy, yet if i recall correct you have only metaed Hectic for a large part of this game. You didn't even meta Chemist, currently your highest scumread - correct me if i'm mistaken - or Bingle, the slot who has the most inconsistencies with his own meta as i have been pointing out around d2 end. Hectic is a relatively new player, but he already accumulated dozens of games in his history. Why do you focus that much on towncasing him by meta, and why did you have enough time and patience to look for his scumgames when you didn't do the same for anyone else?

I like this post.


Nacho, I think Bingle could have been spared yesterday if I wasn’t gunning for it so strong. I think thinking I’m partners with Bingle is a little bit silly. I don’t like that thought pattern from you.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1726 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:26 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1718, Farkran wrote:Why do you have so much interest and access to Hectic meta, and Hectic only, when in post 122 you say this is the first time you have played with him?
hectic's posting was fun and unique and i had a mafia crush on him early. so i did some light meta-diving to confirm my initial thoughts, discovered the newbie scum game, and things just snowballed from there.
In post 1718, Farkran wrote:In post 138, you say that metadiving is an important part to your scumhunting strategy, yet if i recall correct you have only metaed Hectic for a large part of this game. You didn't even meta Chemist, currently your highest scumread - correct me if i'm mistaken - or Bingle, the slot who has the most inconsistencies with his own meta as i have been pointing out around d2 end. Hectic is a relatively new player, but he already accumulated dozens of games in his history. Why do you focus that much on towncasing him by meta, and why did you have enough time and patience to look for his scumgames when you didn't do the same for anyone else?
slight misrep on that - i said that when someone drops meta in front of you and you go "i don't use meta!!!" then you're being silly and disregarding an important tool. i didn't meta chemist because we've played together and i don't need a baseline of him. i didn't meta bingle because we've played together and i don't need a baseline of him.
In post 1719, Farkran wrote:First of all, being on my pred's wagon in d1. As i said, town would have reasons to do that, but it doesn't mean scum wouldn't push for a town mislynch over a town spare when a lynchbait appears. If Hectic is town, because here we're assuming such a scenario, your Replica spare at d1 eod was to focus on promoting the mislynch instead of sparing. When Hectic started scumreading you for it, instead of being suspicious of a very weird push from him, you subconsciously accepted it as if it was correct. You were either complacent or scared, not suspicious. Which is why then you entered d2 with a Hectic spare without any reservations, even if you failed to produce any further scumread or analysis of other people. Looking through your ISO from post 931 onwards (start of d2), you only asked people around without updating any of your solve theories. "Hectic is town, Farkran is scum", period. All the other slots are pretty much null or nulltown. You have no idea what scum is doing from your POV, except for me pushing Hectic/Chara as a double town mislynch, and you don't seem interested in improving that stance.
this case is a bit convoluted. the wagon point is weak. the replica bit i follow but it's again starting from "chara is scum" and finding reasons to fit - why do you think it's more likely that Chara spares Replica to promote your mislynch as opposed to Chara simply wasn't confident in sparing Hectic right that second? i don't understand why Chara had to be suspicious of Hectic getting paranoid of it. i understand your point wrt Chara leaving a huge chunk of the game as null-nulltown Day 2 but i also understand that perspective when Chara was confident in Hectic as town.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1727 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:26 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1725, Amrun wrote:Nacho, I think Bingle could have been spared yesterday if I wasn’t gunning for it so strong. I think thinking I’m partners with Bingle is a little bit silly. I don’t like that thought pattern from you.
who was townreading Bingle as opposed to Cats (2019)?
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1728 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:36 pm

Post by Amrun »

Literally who wasn’t...? I tried to bargain Chemist into a single fight vote on him and couldn’t.

Psyche, cats, Chara I think, Chemist’s read was nebulous. Can’t remember your stance yesterday tbh. I think Farkran also TR that slot? Add me to the mix and it’s a spare easily tbh. Especially without me trying to constantly bring negative attention to the slot.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Replica
Replica
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Replica
Goon
Goon
Posts: 304
Joined: January 19, 2020

Post Post #1729 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:37 pm

Post by Replica »

Don't have time today like I thought, but now that things are cooking I'm excited.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1730 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:38 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1649, Farkran wrote:I honestly don't know how else i could contribute to this game. If you think that quickspare is town, good luck to you all.

HURT: Chara

If it's not Chara, i'm going for Nacho.

I have already cased enough for a solve, the game is still salvageable if i am correct. I am not up to have another week of discussing why sparing again is immensely wrong though, so if you are not yet willing to listen, call me when you are done. I still want to win though, i'll answer when asked to.

If anyone is interested, i think right now we can find town in Bingle > Amrun = Replica > Chemist, and one out of Chara/Nacho. Hectic quickhammering when we were waiting for Bingle to speak when he had just returned from a shortened V/LA is huge townpoints to bingle imo. And i think Psyche was killed to remove an obstacle to a Chara spare.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1731 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:38 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1647, Replica wrote:That kill makes no sense, I'm highkey mad it wasn't me, and this means another day of Cats (2019) for everybody.

I'm probably looking to spare Bingle today then lynch in Fark/Chemist/Nacho tomorrow.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1732 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1582, Hectic wrote:Image

i couldn't find anything in the Guns and Roses game which resemble his thoughts/reads from to .
it's a + for the slot and i think Bingle should be off the FIGHT table for today.
but i wouldn't put so much stock into the meta of a single game, that'd i'd want to SPARE him, pal.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1733 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

farkran doesn't count because farkran didn't want to spare anyone and will never spare anyone
fairly confident chara + psyche were both townreading hectic much harder than bingle and so it'd be hard to convince them to push over to someone else, no?
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1734 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:42 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

like the hectic post you just quoted includes him saying that he wouldn't spare bingle
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1735 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:45 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1720, Farkran wrote:2S/2F is the possibly most similar to a full genocide route, yet you still renounce to 2 flip info. We have 5 town-controlled kills in both routes though, because full genocide leads to a 5th lynch in New Home lylo. Of course, assuming you lynch at least one scum in the process, but then it's also true that you can spare scum within the 2S route. Analyzing spare wagon is strictly worse than fight wagons, because you don't get the flip. Even if you are forced to go down the 2S/2F route, it would still be better to lynch first and spare later. A minor mathematical advantage is insignificant compared to flip information, i will never say it enough, just in case we get to play another undertale some day in the future.
no you're right on the numbers i did a dumb thing here.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1736 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:47 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1476, Psyche wrote:i've been open about my bingle tr for a while
Was voting to spare Bingle and very much wanted to.


Chara’s read was nebulous - didn’t want to fight, didn’t want to spare.

Farkran wanted to fight bingle yesterday but today not so much.


My point is not that he was universally townread, but there were two players actively advocating for his sparing and making towncases, so saying there’s no chance of sparing here regardless of what I say is ?????
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1737 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:48 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1734, Nachomamma8 wrote:like the hectic post you just quoted includes him saying that he wouldn't spare bingle
Yes but he could have been swayed is my point.


And you’re totally wrong on Psyche. He was voting to spare Bingle and wanted to spare Bingle more than anyone.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1738 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:54 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1736, Amrun wrote:
In post 1476, Psyche wrote:i've been open about my bingle tr for a while
Was voting to spare Bingle and very much wanted to.


Chara’s read was nebulous - didn’t want to fight, didn’t want to spare.

Farkran wanted to fight bingle yesterday but today not so much.


My point is not that he was universally townread, but there were two players actively advocating for his sparing and making towncases, so saying there’s no chance of sparing here regardless of what I say is ?????
bingle replaced alimada, who wasn't a universal townread Day 2.
while there were more people than i remembered townreading bingle (i did forget that psyche spared bingle for that hot second), i think it would have been remarkably surprising if the person we spared yesterday was a slot who didn't do jack fucking shit the entire game when there weren't any voodoo reasons to call him town. i don't think this is a ridiculous point to make.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1739 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:55 pm

Post by Amrun »

I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1740 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:56 pm

Post by Amrun »

Like I was actually excited and feeling Town about you until I started overthinking it. Like are you trying to not disqualify obviously bad scum teams? Idgi
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1741 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:00 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Farkran's overall game here seems like an outlier based on the other games of his that I read, but I think that might have something to do with being tilted from the minute he replaced in. i think that his hectic read is stubborn (to the same degree that he probably thinks that my hectic read is stubborn) and that if he's town, that's kind of what is making things go wonky for him and the reads that I feel are shallow are really just confbiased. I think that his refusal to make friends with anyone this game except maybe Amrun (who he's still poked at a bit) makes it more likely that he's paranoid town as opposed to scum - I think that as scum he's a bit more careful on what reasoning makes it to thread vs what reasoning doesn't.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1742 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:01 pm

Post by Amrun »

Nacho I really want to wreck with you. I have felt good mostly about your analysis today but I still have a few doubts. You really think I could be scum WITH Bingle?!
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1743 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:02 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1739, Amrun wrote:I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.
i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1744 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:04 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

i'm not really great about the game today as opposed to yesterday.
yesterday was sunshine and roses. today is not.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1745 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:05 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1743, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1739, Amrun wrote:I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.
i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.
Well I didn’t mean that would be the reason, obviously. But you were saying we could be scum together because it wouldn’t matter if I voted to spare or fight him, he wouldn’t be spared, so my read on him was irrelevant (or at least that’s how I interpreted it).
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1746 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:06 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

i'm frustrated that i'm still thinking about farkran at this point. i'm fine leaving maybe one or two people in the CANNOT READ bin but i didn't expect him to be one of them. i think there's a lot to point to farkran being town but then there's also the fact that the man cannot make a scum case or town case on anyone without assuming their alignment or tying it back to the HECTIC IS SCUM theory.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1747 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:09 pm

Post by Amrun »

In post 1746, Nachomamma8 wrote:i'm frustrated that i'm still thinking about farkran at this point. i'm fine leaving maybe one or two people in the CANNOT READ bin but i didn't expect him to be one of them. i think there's a lot to point to farkran being town but then there's also the fact that the man cannot make a scum case or town case on anyone without assuming their alignment or tying it back to the HECTIC IS SCUM theory.
Right. Like, his arguments are circular.

But his frustration seems real.

Welcome to my life!
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
User avatar
User avatar
Nachomamma8
Devil in the Details
Devil in the Details
Posts: 38382
Joined: June 5, 2009
Location: Chicago

Post Post #1748 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:09 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 1745, Amrun wrote:
In post 1743, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1739, Amrun wrote:I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.
i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.
Well I didn’t mean that would be the reason, obviously. But you were saying we could be scum together because it wouldn’t matter if I voted to spare or fight him, he wouldn’t be spared, so my read on him was irrelevant (or at least that’s how I interpreted it).
farkran is townreading you because you could get any one of your hypothetical partners spared.
that doesn't make sense to me - the exchanges that we had circulating around your possible partners was me prodding at the above thought.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
User avatar
Amrun
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
User avatar
User avatar
Amrun
Killed the Radio Star
Killed the Radio Star
Posts: 22501
Joined: January 24, 2011
Location: East Coast US

Post Post #1749 (ISO) » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:11 pm

Post by Amrun »

I mean his stated reason for TR me is a little cray cray but it hasn’t been terrible as it organically evolved throughout the game IMO.
I survived
Tigerpocalypse 2011


Fusion Mafia, ongoing now.
Locked