Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Klick]

Heading out for now but I'll look at white flag when I'm back

[Auro]

I've basically come up null on his Mason claim because I could see him doing it as either alignment if he had just been skimming and seeing that he had a decent amount of pressure on him.

Incorrect, Klick. If this was true, it would have reflected in the reasons he mentioned for claiming. "To get out of the PoE and avoid a TSE tunnel" were the first two reasons he mentioned. "To avoid lynching a buddy" or something was a reason for crumbing.

If he actually felt lynch pressure it's highly unlikely he would have said "to get out of the PoE". I don't think there's anyway he comes to the conclusion that he's the one getting lynched today anyway, upon any skim of the thread.

The rationale for crumbing is also obviously bad if Mason, and that isn't a function of gamestate for Mason.

He also doubled down on the claim, tried to confirm it, got frustrated when others started claiming it - that's scummy.

[Auro]

Heading out for now but I'll look at white flag when I'm back

If it probably won't help you sort me it's a waste of time - I'd rather you just spend that time engaging with me, because if you're town I need your vote on scum.

[Auro]

It has kind of been easy to tell that TSE is a mason for a while, Chemist

Do you have any thoughts to offer about this particular post, especially in the context of her latest posts, Klick?

I'm also re-quoting this question, since you might have missed it.

[Klick]

It has kind of been easy to tell that TSE is a mason for a while, Chemist

Do you have any thoughts to offer about this particular post, especially in the context of her latest posts, Klick?

Not any that would be helpful to share with the class. Chemist/TSE/pops have all gone far down the WIFOM rabbit hole and I think it has outlived whatever usefulness it may have had.

[Auro]

Okay, ignore the further WIFOM - how is "it's been easy to tell that TSE is a mason for a while" not anti-town?
What purpose does that serve?

[Auro]

@TSE: Right now, I believe Chemist is a better lynch than Suji.

[Klick]

I've basically come up null on his Mason claim because I could see him doing it as either alignment if he had just been skimming and seeing that he had a decent amount of pressure on him.

Incorrect, Klick. If this was true, it would have reflected in the reasons he mentioned for claiming. "To get out of the PoE and avoid a TSE tunnel" were the first two reasons he mentioned. "To avoid lynching a buddy" or something was a reason for crumbing.

If he actually felt lynch pressure it's highly unlikely he would have said "to get out of the PoE". I don't think there's anyway he comes to the conclusion that he's the one getting lynched today anyway, upon any skim of the thread.

The rationale for crumbing is also obviously bad if Mason, and that isn't a function of gamestate for Mason.

He also doubled down on the claim, tried to confirm it, got frustrated when others started claiming it - that's scummy.

Here's the potential town thought process I see:

- Chemist isn't paying close attention
- Chemist doesn't think he can get engaged with this game
- Chemist decides the way he can be most useful for town is by drawing a kill onto himself, getting a scum killed and semi-clearing himself
-OR-
- Chemist is Mason, claims in the hopes that Town won't lynch him for it while Mafia don't feel confident enough to shoot him

I think going into much more depth could be detrimental here, but this seems plausible based on my experience with Chemist.
But he could just as easily just be scum and considering the available options left I'd say it's somewhat likely.

PEdit: you're telling me to ignore the WIFOM while reading into the WIFOM
My assumption is that she thinks that will get scum to misfire somehow, as with many of her follow-up posts on the subject.

[Auro]

To your pedit: No, I was telling you to read that one comment specifically while ignoring the succeeding WIFOM.

[Sujimichi]

@TSE: Right now, I believe Chemist is a better lynch than Suji.

Why have you changed your mind?

[Auro]

1. I'm sort of losing my Klick townread.
2. I'm considering the possibility that I'm wrong about you and scum want me to mislynch you - Klick keeps branding you and I as SvT; Pops doesn't seem to care *too much* to convince me off lynching you, when there's such a clear associative that Pops would know she probably dies next.

[Auro]

you and me*

[Klick]

That seems like odd reasoning to want to lynch Chemist.

[Sujimichi]

1. I'm sort of losing my Klick townread.
2. I'm considering the possibility that I'm wrong about you and scum want me to mislynch you - Klick keeps branding you and I as SvT; Pops doesn't seem to care *too much* to convince me off lynching you, when there's such a clear associative that Pops would know she probably dies next.

If you are considering the possibility that you were wrong on me, why do you suspect Chemist1422 to be the best lynch? Were you not using his claim as Mason as a reason to suspect we were both Mafia? If you believe that I am town, why does a Mafia-aligned Chemist1422 claim Mason when I am the one being pushed at the time?

[Auro]

To clarify, that's reasoning for why I'm moving off Suji.
I simply think Chemist has highest scum equity.

[Sujimichi]

Could you explain why you think that?

[Auro]

If you are considering the possibility that you were wrong on me, why do you suspect Chemist1422 to be the best lynch? Were you not using his claim as Mason as a reason to suspect we were both Mafia? If you believe that I am town, why does a Mafia-aligned Chemist1422 claim Mason when I am the one being pushed at the time?

This might sound wonky but I'll try to explain; if the rational conclusion is that you both are Mafia and it's also logical to lynch you over the claimed "Mason", how harmful is it to scum!Chemist exactly? That while also drawing a counter-claim actually sets up a pretty good win% for scum in the event you're lynched, if {Pops/Chemist} are both scum but you aren't.
In addition to Pops slightly nudging the Suji push (by calling the case 'persuasive' and suggesting that town sheep my reads if I'm town and my reads are good, etc) she also tried to divert off Chemist by suggesting the lynch be outside {TSE, Chemist}. Her message "TSE has been obvious mason, Chemist" (or something like that) seems like a message to Chemist. I see there's a possibility she townreads both somehow and wants to muddle the waters with WIFOM, but... meh.

[Auro]

Suji, I will appreciate it if both of us assume each other town for a while and engage towards a solve from that perspective.

[Sujimichi]

Your reconsideration of me supports my previously stated possibility that you were Town in a confirmation bias tunnel as there is no need for you to change your stance on me if you are Mafia. I am fine with approaching the game from that perspective and will re-evaluate with that in mind.

[Auro]

@Klick: Add to it that Chemist feels that TSE's counterclaim is scum because "it's gamethrowing" if VT; would be sort of hypocritical for him to start wanting to thunderdome TSE if he gambited as a VT to draw the shot lol.

[Klick]

Hypocrisy Is Not A Scumtell

[Auro]

Perhaps hypocritical is a wrong word the way I use it, but I'm arguing that he wouldn't believe what he believed about TSE if he was actually doing the same thing

[Klick]

Because I’m the Last Mason.

VOTE: TSE

Cool

If you're VT this is essentially gamethrowing

Otherwise you just outed as scum

TSE is probably fakeclaiming but I'm not unvoting until he rescinds

TSE if you're VT and you don't rescind I hope you know you've lost us the game

His primary goal here seems to be to get TSE to retract.

I think Chemist scumreads TSE for disrupting his gambit.

[Auro]

I'll concede that Chemist knows what he's doing.

[Chemist1422]

I'll concede that Chemist knows what he's doing.

I what