Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Auro]

You said it makes you not scum with anyone out of your townblock. That's the claim that I don't accept.

And one scum getting guiltied is not the end of the world for scum, especially because any scum offwagon that isn't guiltied will look better because they were off the wagon and opened themself up to potentially getting guiltied.

What? Where did I say that? I was simply asking Crayon for his thoughts on it. In the same line, I offered the possibility that I haven't added them yet. And "shoving my buddy in there" would be a function of the final townblocc I achieve, not the current townblocc as it is. And sure, I could change my reads, but that would require me to form a trajectory off my strong townreads.

They'll look -slightly- better, but that's only if they don't fight the townbloc, and sure - I invite scum to take the 2/5 risk of doing that then.

Do you think I would be expecting town points from you, Skitter, Nomnomnom and GuiltyLion by saying "Sure yeah I can stay off wagon"? Do you think I think that has any payoff for me?

[Karnage]

They'll look -slightly- better, but that's only if they don't fight the townbloc, and sure -

I invite scum to take the 2/5 risk of doing that then

.

+1

[Auro]

Hell, actually, good thought.

Skitter/GuiltyLion, are you both individually fine with being offwagon? I absolutely am.

[northsidegal]

Votecount 1.6

Target	Wagon
Allomancer (4)	nomnomnom (211), The Limit Does Not Exist (213), GuiltyLion (229), Eve (241)
acryon (2)	Allomancer (215), BBmolla (243)
The Limit Does Not Exist (1)	Auro (42)
Not Voting (4)	SausasaurusRex (219), skitter30 (231), Karnage (299), acryon (314)

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-05-03 00:18:59).

[Auro]

Townbloc: {1/0, Karnage, Nomnomnom, Crayon, _____, _____}
Copbloc: {Skitter, GuiltyLion, BBMolla, Auro, _____}

To fill the blanks: {Allomancer, Rex, Eve}

[Auro]

VOTE: Eve

[Allomancer]

@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.

I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.

[GuiltyLion]

@nom, @GL, I'd like to hear from you two regarding your reads on Auro. GL, have your feelings on him changed since the "paranoia" back and forth?

Gut take before I finish catching up - I'm feeling really mixed on him, overall lean town but a level of confidence below most of my good townreads:

reasons I have for thinking he's town:
- I've clashed with him before similarly when TvT so I can imagine him being town here similarly (referring to Auro as Michael Scott hydra in Rapier U-Pick game)
- I think overall he's been fair with how he's treated my slot and other slots
- he certainly isn't buddying me
- I do like most of his reads and the players he's trying to townbloc, don't disagree with most of his game state views

reasons I have reservations:
- he doesn't see me as town yet and further seems to be almost committed to not townreading me
- he quoted the Maf PT from my most recent scumgame when I think my play in that game should already stand out as different than my play here

I'm trying to remember though that my reservations are likely biased since I tend to think I'm obvious as town in contrast to my scumgame, despite me knowing this probably isn't true to other people

[GuiltyLion]

here I tried to fix up Auro's version a bit, not sure what you want done with those whiskers.

you guys are both heroes, thank you so much!!

[GuiltyLion]

i'm interested that the acryon wagon seems to have collapsed and reformed on allo. i don't have a read on allo himself but sudden general consensus there loosely points to town!allo too

this is bad VCA/wagonomics IMO

unless you wanna point to specific players that you think were the scum on both wagons, you can't really make a conclusion about Allo based off Acryon wagon, especially without flips from anybody yet. And if you're starting from "both wagons happened quickly and had similar players so it's likely scum were on them" then that's assuming from the get-go that the two wagoned players are town and will bias your reads from there

[GuiltyLion]

does someone have townreads on Limit that is for beyond reasons that they post walls just curious

I think the way Smart was treating me with suspicion but then Lilith comes in with this gut townread on me is hydra dissonance that a scum hydra is generally unlikely to fake

[GuiltyLion]

I think I disagree. That post in particular shows a nuanced thought over a player. If a scum isn't a stream-of-consciousness machine, they mostly produce content that is fairly one sided on people and tend to categorize as GOOD, BAD or WISHY-WASHY. Producing a post that goes like "I heavily disagree with what you say and here's why... but I think I townread you" takes either a townie mind, or a scum that understands how to properly replicate that kind of nuance, which is honestly hard as fuck.
If we're talking about suspect timing, I'd recommend checking the progression of Allo regarding Eve and Acryon. Suddenly understood eve was shitposting when I said it was shitposting, and suddenly produces a real vote and thought on a player when I accused him of not doing that, on a player everyone more or less suspected previously. That timing and progression is just really bad. I think that the wagon forming really fast is just due to conversational missteps from Allo rather than having scum support. That's my inner feeling on this one.

yeah this is extremely on point

I didn't say it but to +1 and summarize, the thing I disliked most from Allo was the late-ness to it's acryon vote. It was shading acryon but then only voted it once pressured by both Limit and nomnom. The unvote without going somewhere new, even when the juicy acryon wagon was right there, suggests to me Allo isn't interested in voting scumreads.

[GuiltyLion]

However, there does seem to be a difference in aggression between your push on Crayon (a "weird" slot) (and perhaps add Allomancer here too) and lack of it less weird ones. There's engagement, but more on the passive side.
Would that be something I find if I were to do a meta study on you?

I'm not sure I exactly follow what you're identifying as a difference between my scumgame and town game here, but I definitely encourage you to meta me, I think I'm already way more involved in this game than I ever was in that Newbie scumgame where I basically just sat back and let town rip itself up.

When are we gonna do a Calvin & Hobbes hydra?

I'm down! let's "take this offline", as they say

[GuiltyLion]

Skitter/GuiltyLion, are you both individually fine with being offwagon? I absolutely am.

Ideally I'd like the day to end with the person I most want lynched getting lynched

but if that can/will happen without me on the wagon, I'm fine volunteering to be off of it

[GuiltyLion]

@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.

I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.

can you link me to a town game or two where you were a significant D1 wagon?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Not just that: It's a risk with no payoff, since there's no direct reason they become part of a voting bloc the next day.

There's pretty much no such thing as a risk with no payoff for scum. If scum stay off the wagon and aren't investigated, they look townier because they opened themselves up to getting guiltied.

-Smart

[Auro]

Feel free to not give me any town points for staying off wagon then

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Why wouldn't I, though? You admitted yourself that you didn't see any benefit to staying off as scum. I think it's likely that you really believe that.

-Smart

[Auro]

Is there a point to this conversation, Smartypants?

[acryon]

@Allomancer When you come back, what are your thoughts on how your wagon has progressed and how people have reacted to it? Just about everyone, even those outside of it, have responded to it in some way.

I'm not really too concerned about it. I feel like every game I've played lately, whether I've been town or scum, has lead to an early day 1 wagon on me.

That wasn't really my question. My question is more what are your reads on how people jumped on you/reacted to the jump on you?

[The Limit Does Not Exist]

Is there a point to this conversation, Smartypants?

...yeah? We're discussing whether staying off the wagon is towny.

-Smart

[Auro]

@GuiltyLion:
1. Why evade the part where I ask you about your lack of questioning Crayon for his "unexplained" keeping of vote?
2. Has anyone ever identified you as an easy read?
3. Do you not think the contexts between the Newbie game (easy to coast in) and here (hesitancy in awarding townreads, pressure towards your slot, lot of non-"newbie" players) are different enough that a comparison in involvement is worth basing a read off of?

[Eve]

guiltylion's avatar change has driven himself up to my townreads

[Auro]

...yeah? We're discussing whether staying off the wagon is towny.

Yes, but the 2/5 thing was part of your invalidating part of my perceived implication that I am town because I could form an all-town townbloc as scum.

[GuiltyLion]

@GuiltyLion:
1. Why evade the part where I ask you about your lack of questioning Crayon for his "unexplained" keeping of vote?
2. Has anyone ever identified you as an easy read?
3. Do you not think the contexts between the Newbie game (easy to coast in) and here (hesitancy in awarding townreads, pressure towards your slot, lot of non-"newbie" players) are different enough that a comparison in involvement is worth basing a read off of?

1. Sorry, didn't mean to evade it, just missed it / thought it was rhetorical. I dunno, I feel I'm more likely to ask questions when I am unsure how I feel and looking for more info, whereas I gut felt Acryon's reply was scummy and didn't see a need to press further, I already knew how I felt about it. That's about the best I got for ya

2. I can't remember a time someone has explicitly said they can consistently/always read me well, but Lilith seems to have already picked up on me being town this game and that was after opening saying she was afraid she couldn't read me that well. Some players I've played multiple games with (the worst, URAP2, Irrelephant) seem to be able to feel when I'm genuinely engaged vs when I'm not, and it makes them scary for me to roll scum against.

3. I'm not trying to go further down a rabbithole of making a meta argument for myself as town based off of my most recent scumgame, I just brought it up since you tried to argue with Lilith's townread on me by using a post from the Maf PT and I think the game threads themselves should be far more indicative than one comment I made about how I try to play scum. ultimately I'm just trying to point out that I am much more naturally able to effort and engage here, as town, and I plan to continue to consistently demonstrate my different alignment between these two games. If you aren't going to be (or don't

want

to be) convinced that argument that's fine, ultimately it's your loss of a potential piece of evidence you could use to read me correctly .